Pros and Cons of your DO School

[Siggy]

Don't get me wrong. There are the exceptional DO schools out there. The older, established schools that receive state money. UMDNJ, TCOM, PCOM, etc. It's more that there's a great divide between these schools and RVUCOM, Touro, Western, AZCOM. And at this point, there's so many of the new schools with poor standards, it reflects badly on the profession as a whole.

I'm curious, as a new Western student, why you lump Western in with the much newer schools like Touro and RVU?

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[DOinMS]

The real heart-ache comes when you realize that NOTHING any student says will ever effect the re-accredidation of the school. The same silent, unresponsive dismissive attitude is EXACTLY what you'll get from the accredidation council.

The AOA will rubber stamp the accredidation of ANY school.

I know everyone thinks I'm a big drama queen, but seriously, students at DO schools have no voice. No input. No place. The osteopathic world is changing, for the worse, fast.

For profit schools. Schools with no clinical sites. Schools with higher tuitions and higher debts for graduates. Schools where all the faculty are hired on a temporary basis. And dismissed without explanation. No tenured faculty. No clinical departments. No 3rd and 4th year students who stay on the home campus. Clinical education that the "hope" they can get.

We raise concerns. And they are telling us to "go study."

bth

...schools that have not had an established curriculum since opening, branch campuses, etc., etc. Things that would prevent a school from even making it on the agenda to be discussed at an LCME meeting. And like bth7 stated, we are told to "go study," or "if you don't like it, then go MD," which are lines aimed at avoiding the issue altogether.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Which schools were they? Was TCOM one of them?

One school that had an LCME visit was DMU. I don't know about TCOM, but I think that KCUMB either had one or is going to have one.

 

[WDeagle]

One school that had an LCME visit was DMU. I don't know about TCOM, but I think that KCUMB either had one or is going to have one.

The two that i had heard of were DMU and KCUMB. I guess TCOM makes it three.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

The two that i had heard of were DMU and KCUMB. I guess TCOM makes it three.

You go to KCUMB right? What do you think will come of the LCME visit there? Was the Wiki article right and they're looking into dual accreditation?

 

[Bacchus]

The real heart-ache comes when you realize that NOTHING any student says will ever effect the re-accredidation of the school. The same silent, unresponsive dismissive attitude is EXACTLY what you'll get from the accredidation council.

The AOA will rubber stamp the accredidation of ANY school. Including the recent shenanigans going on here: http://www.rockyvistauniversity.org/PDFs/RockyVistaUniversityHoldingCo.pdf

I know everyone thinks I'm a big drama queen, but seriously, students at DO schools have no voice. No input. No place. The osteopathic world is changing, for the worse, fast.

For profit schools. Schools with no clinical sites. Schools with higher tuitions and higher debts for graduates. Schools where all the faculty are hired on a temporary basis. And dismissed without explanation. No tenured faculty. No clinical departments. No 3rd and 4th year students who stay on the home campus. Clinical education that the "hope" they can get.

We raise concerns. And they are telling us to "go study."

bth

I don't think you're being dramatic. I have friends that are applying this cycle and they ask me about some of the DO schools and then go on to underestimate where they can get in. Unfortunately, I feel like a fear monger, but Touro is one of the schools that I would not like to see any of my friends go to. What's going on with UNE is definitely a huge issue as well. We aren't in undergrad anymore... you have to look moreso at the educational quality over other issues. No offense to Shy, but I know a lot of people that think UNE would be a great place to go simply because its in the northeast. That's a horrible reason to pick a school if it is the sole reason. I don't think the adage, "you'll be a doctor in the end," holds much water when you go to a school in turmoil.

Now a question... why aren't people speaking out? Is it career suicide to question the AOA? I've been removed from a lot of the drama because of my school choice. But, I would hate to think that my future career is being mocked because I go to a DO school. Association by proxy is going to happen. Its not responsible to not combat it.

 

[docbill]

don't get me wrong here - UNE has some really great 3rd year core clinical sites. I did a LOT in my third year and had a great learning experience. Third year core rotations are placed in a core site so you don't have to move around for 3rd year.

University Health is where the campus faculty practices. In essence, UNE has dismissed all the 1st and 2nd year clinical teaching faculty other than the OMM department head and the PhDs that only teach and research. No one to teach OMM other than the department head. No table trainers for second years. No residents. This is the reality UNE is facing with the closing of University Health. Who knows what's going to happen with the OMM fellowship program.

UNE does pay for our rotation sites - but not much. Far less than Tufts or UVermont or Dartmouth pays.

It seems like you are paying the highest tuition in the country and getting the least back. From day one they were saying.. don't worry get back to studying. If you ask me... it seems like a bad situation getting worse. On the bright side you are in your final year so you just have to make it till graduation.

Shyrem, good luck to you and the few Class of 2010 that are finishing this year. This should serve as a warning for any applicants considering applying to UNECOM.

PS. There is no way LCME accreditation will replace the AOA one at UNE. As one poster said, they will just re-approve it anyway. They wouldn't want to see one of their own fail.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Yeah, you don't have to own the hospital. The "university" hospital at my allopathic school is actually privately owned. At my clinical campus, we do all our rotations at private hospitals, but our residency programs are at these hospitals, and we have permanent university faculty who are teaching us. I have no idea about the specifics of the LCME requirements, but they do seem a little more restrictive than AOA requirements.

 

[bth7]

I know a lot of people that think UNE would be a great place to go simply because its in the northeast. That's a horrible reason to pick a school if it is the sole reason. I don't think the adage, "you'll be a doctor in the end," holds much water when you go to a school in turmoil.

Agree with all you said. On this specific point about choosing a school based on location, I have serious sympathy to those that do that.

People have lives. They have kids in school. They have partners & spouses with jobs that are supporting the family. The have elderly parents they are responsible for. Many people are geographically constrained for good reasons, and they can't just pack up and move to Oklahoma, Texas, or New Jersey.

We expect med schools to have a basic level of stability and standards, and I think those expectations are reasonable.

Unfortunately, in the DO world, our reasonable expectations are not shared by the powers that be. They see our role as students as merely a vehicle to get government money in the form of student loans.

Why is it that we (DO students) pay more in tuition, but our schools pay less (or nothing) for our clinical rotations? Where does this money go?

bth

 

[MedStudentWanna]

It seems like you are paying the highest tuition in the country and getting the least back. From day one they were saying.. don't worry get back to studying. If you ask me... it seems like a bad situation getting worse. On the bright side you are in your final year so you just have to make it till graduation.

Shyrem, good luck to you and the few Class of 2010 that are finishing this year. This should serve as a warning for any applicants considering applying to UNECOM.

PS. There is no way LCME accreditation will replace the AOA one at UNE. As one poster said, they will just re-approve it anyway. They wouldn't want to see one of their own fail.

What do you mean the few? Isn't all of the class of 2010 graduating this year?

 

[bth7]

Yeah, you don't have to own the hospital. The "university" hospital at my allopathic school is actually privately owned. At my clinical campus, we do all our rotations at private hospitals, but our residency programs are at these hospitals, and we have permanent university faculty who are teaching us. I have no idea about the specifics of the LCME requirements, but they do seem a little more restrictive than AOA requirements.

Thanks for the clarification. The difference is thus: at my school (Touro), we have to set up many of our rotations on our own (meaning we apply to be visiting students at hospitals non-affiliated with the school). There are some affiliated sites, but much less than would be required to actually take all the students. There are no residency programs associated with the school. There are no faculty employed by the school at these sites.

In many cases, the affiliated hospitals that do exist are far away. Requiring one to move 3, 4, 5 times in the course of one year.

bth

 

[bth7]

Everyone should read this article, published this year by Norman Gevitz:

DO schools are currently expanding their class sizes much more quickly than are their MD counterparts. Unlike MD colleges, where it is widely known that academic faculty members—fearing dilution of quality as well as the prospect of an increased teaching workload—constitute a powerful inhibiting force to expand class size, osteopathic faculty at private osteopathic schools have traditionally had little or no input on such matters. Instead, these decisions are almost exclusively the responsibility of college administrators and their boards of trustees, who look at such expansion from an entrepreneurial as well as an educational perspective. Osteopathic medical schools can keep the cost of student body expansion relatively low compared with that of MD institutions. Although the standards of the Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation ensure that there will be enough desks and lab spaces to accommodate all new students, they do not mandate that an osteopathic college must bear the expense of maintaining a high full-time-faculty:student ratio.

The Transformation of Osteopathic Medical Education
Gevitz, Norman PhD
Academic Medicine
Issue: Volume 84(6), June 2009, pp 701-706

IMO, this is THE MOST important fact about osteopathic medicine in comparison to our allopathic counterparts.

 

[Bacchus]

I still think it depends on the school. From my experiences here, so far, and what I've been told during that time PCOM seems receptive to its students. For example, we have a brownbag lunch with our dean tomorrow. What's going to be discussed? I'm not sure.

 

[bth7]

"The simultaneous movement away from osteopathic medicine’s traditionally separate training and practice systems, when coupled with its rapid growth, has created a sense of crisis as to its future. The rapid rate of growth has raised questions as to the availability of clinical and basic science faculty and clinical resources to accommodate the increasing load of students."

From the President of the American Association of College of Osteopathic Medicine.

Shannon, S. (Jun 2009). "The status and future of osteopathic medical education in the United States". Academic medicine 84 (6): 707–711. doi:10.1097/ACM.0b013e3181a43be8. ISSN 1040-2446. PMID 19474542.

 

[ShyRem]

Bacchus, no offense taken. I chose UNE for my own reasons, not for it being in the Northeast.... well, actually my family wanted to go to Maine. My #1 choice put me on the waitlist that barely moved that year, so my family's #1 choice was next. Seems only fair - they were moving a long way away. They should be happy wherever we go, so they should have a say where that is. And no, we're NOT from the Northeast.

bth, I'm sorry you had to move so much during 3rd year. This was one of the things everyone should research about their prospective schools. UNE puts you in ONE place for all of third year. Fourth year you may do what you wish - some choose to stay in only one place, others choose to move around. But the choice is yours to make.

I am a big fan of information. And prospective students should know what's going on (good and bad) at any institution they're thinking about borrowing a quarter of a million dollars or more to be able to attend. So in that vein, bth, perhaps you should express all of your opinions in a lovely, long, detailed message about Touro and post it here if you haven't already. But not all schools are Touro, not all medical schools (allo OR osteo) have a hospital. For heavens' sakes, Dartmouth and UVermont students rotate in Maine. Tufts students rotate in Maine. Columbia sends students to Cooperstown. Sending students out for rotations is not just for osteopathic schools.

 

[Siggy]

Are the Tufts student in Maine regular Tufts students or only students enrolled in the Tufts Maine Track?

http://www.tufts.edu/med/education/mdmainetrack/index.html

 

[bth7]

not all medical schools (allo OR osteo) have a hospital. For heavens' sakes, Dartmouth and UVermont students rotate in Maine. Tufts students rotate in Maine. Columbia sends students to Cooperstown. Sending students out for rotations is not just for osteopathic schools.

ShyRem, Thanks for your empathy and suggestions. I appreciate it.

I find your statements above to be a bit confusing. All allopathic schools may not "have a hospital", but there's a big difference in the way clinical rotations are handled, who teaches them, how they are organized - between osteopathic and allopathic schools.

Allopathic schools have clinical departments. A department of surgeons or pediatricians or psychiatrists that teach the students years 1-4. It provides valuable continuity in the education and gives students a chance to investigate their field of interest from Day 1 of med school.

Osteopathic schools often just have "some guy who comes on Teusday" and lectures about psychiatry. Literally, there might be 1 person who lectures on surgery for the entire years 1-4. This person may not be a professor, and may not even have an office on campus.

Allopathic schools may send some students away for 3rd year, but this is often facilitated by special programs for students with special interests. Like the aformentioned Tuft's Maine track. The students choose to participate, and participating doesn't mean a compromise in the quality of the education, which is diligently maintained.

Osteopathic students on the other hand, are sent to community hospitals with no internship or residency programs. No organized didactic program. And are expected to carve out a niche for themselves.

Don't get me wrong, this can be an extraordinarily valuable experience as well. But it may not be for everyone. People need to understand before they buy exactly what they are buying. Like you said, Information is key. I'm 100% in support of people having more information before they make their choice.

bth

 

[MedStudentWanna]

bth, your words are troubling because you're painting all Osteopathic schools with one brush. Some schools may be as you describe, but not all are. Look at Nova. The students there rotate at Jackson Memorial, alongside UM students.

Now look at FSU. The students there are shipped away for rotations all over the place because they don't have a hospital. By your reasoning, Nova would be an MD school and FSU would be a DO school. But they're not.

I thought we learned to stop stereotyping back in grade school?

 

[spicedmanna]

Osteopathic schools often just have "some guy who comes on Teusday" and lectures about psychiatry. Literally, there might be 1 person who lectures on surgery for the entire years 1-4. This person may not be a professor, and may not even have an office on campus.

Indeed. I've had this experience far too many times in the past two years. The quality of education you get can be variable, depending on who shows up. Sometimes this can equate to working harder to catch up on what you actually need to know for boards and whatnot. I don't know if this is unique to osteopathic medical schools, but it has certainly been a source of annoyance to me. It certainly doesn't sell me on a given school's interest in my education.

Osteopathic students on the other hand, are sent to community hospitals with no internship or residency programs. No organized didactic program. And are expected to carve out a niche for themselves.

Yeah, this can happen, too. I've heard many horror stories regarding your point. The bigger issue is that there's no quality control. The education during the latter two years can be so very variable, even amongst a single institution. I'm fortunate in that I am able to rotate at a community-based hospital, with a full trauma center and solid didactics, for the duration of my third year. There are a ton of residency programs at my hospital. However, you probably won't find much research going on as you would in a large academic center.

Again, I don't know if the point you are making is unique for osteopathic medical schools, but it does strike me as a problem that needs to be addressed. Putting blinders on certainly doesn't help. I definitely encourage investigating the third and fourth years at schools of interest very carefully.

 

[Cp22kjer]

Osteopathic schools often just have "some guy who comes on Teusday" and lectures about psychiatry. Literally, there might be 1 person who lectures on surgery for the entire years 1-4. This person may not be a professor, and may not even have an office on campus.

I've had one "specialty lecture" concerning Radiology so far. This lecture was presented by a practicing Radiologist. We also have the opportunity to shadow him if interested.

Osteopathic students on the other hand, are sent to community hospitals with no internship or residency programs. No organized didactic program. And are expected to carve out a niche for themselves.

bth

This would all be new to me. I can walk to the hospital connected to my Osteopathic medical school and believe or not I can get involved in any of the 20+ residencies offered as an MS1 (shadowing/rounding with interns and residents).

 

[bth7]

bth, your words are troubling because you're painting all Osteopathic schools with one brush. Some schools may be as you describe, but not all are. Look at Nova. The students there rotate at Jackson Memorial, alongside UM students.

Now look at FSU. The students there are shipped away for rotations all over the place because they don't have a hospital. By your reasoning, Nova would be an MD school and FSU would be a DO school. But they're not.

I thought we learned to stop stereotyping back in grade school?

If you read through my posts, (and I appreciate the reminder) you'll see that I keep beating the drum on this point.

Yes, there are osteopathic schools that seriously have their act together, and DO NOT follow these bad practices.

The biggest problem is we are all so limited in our experience, only knowing about our school and our rotation. It actually takes until the end of your 4th year, or middle of your internship (if you're at an ACGME) till you fully appreciate the differences of which I speak.

Yes, some DO schools have their act together. Yes, some DO students "luck out" and have a good experience at a their rotation site. And some students are just so darn good that you could put them anywhere, and they'd make it into a positive experience.

The problem is as another said above, overall quality control. If 75% of the students have good rotations, but 25% don't, that's a MASSIVE problem IMO.

It's this 25, or 10 or 40% depending on who you ask and how you measure it, that I'm speaking about.

If you lucked out, great, but recognize that lots of folks are slipping through the cracks in a system that is allowing its quality to slowly erode.

These aren't just my observations, see the quotes from Gevitz and Shannon above.

bth

 

[bth7]

This would all be new to me. I can walk to the hospital connected to my Osteopathic medical school and believe or not I can get involved in any of the 20+ residencies offered as an MS1 (shadowing/rounding with interns and residents).

That's great. This is how it should be. Again, I'm aware that many DO schools provide these opportunities.

But as others above have stated, there are many "horror stories" out there. And the current incidents at UNE are not isolated. The overall slippage of quality, though may not effect you, today, at your school, will effect the profession as a whole in the coming years.

The quality control isn't there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine_in_the_United_States#Identity_crisis

bth

 

[Cp22kjer]

The problem is as another said above, overall quality control. If 75% of the students have good rotations, but 25% don't, that's a MASSIVE problem IMO.

It's this 25, or 10 or 40% depending on who you ask and how you measure it, that I'm speaking about.

If you lucked out, great, but recognize that lots of folks are slipping through the cracks in a system that is allowing its quality to slowly erode.

These aren't just my observations, see the quotes from Gevitz and Shannon above.

bth

I see your point. I guess the generalization threw me off a bit.

 

[bth7]

Indeed. I've had this experience far too many times in the past two years. The quality of education you get can be variable, depending on who shows up. Sometimes this can equate to working harder to catch up on what you actually need to know for boards and whatnot. I don't know if this is unique to osteopathic medical schools, but it has certainly been a source of annoyance to me. It certainly doesn't sell me on a given school's interest in my education.

Yeah, this can happen, too. I've heard many horror stories regarding your point. The bigger issue is that there's no quality control. The education during the latter two years can be so very variable, even amongst a single institution. I'm fortunate in that I am able to rotate at a community-based hospital, with a full trauma center and solid didactics, for the duration of my third year. There are a ton of residency programs at my hospital. However, you probably won't find much research going on as you would in a large academic center.

Again, I don't know if the point you are making is unique for osteopathic medical schools, but it does strike me as a problem that needs to be addressed. Putting blinders on certainly doesn't help. I definitely encourage investigating the third and fourth years at schools of interest very carefully.

 

[bth7]

I see your point. I guess the generalization threw me off a bit.

What would be really awesome would be comprehensive surveys of students from many schools, and rankings according to student satisfaction.

Knowledge is power. It should be freely available. And the published data might encourage a real accounting of what is happening within the profession, and encourage reform and better management.

Unfortunately, all one can currently get from anyone as a pre-med is "osteopathic physicians treat the whole patient. We are different (but just as good as) MDs."

This is not a reasonable response to pre-meds legitimate questions about our schools and the quality & type of education they will receive.

bth

 

[Cp22kjer]

That's great. This is how it should be. Again, I'm aware that many DO schools provide these opportunities.

But as others above have stated, there are many "horror stories" out there. And the current incidents at UNE are not isolated. The overall slippage of quality, though may not effect you, today, at your school, will effect the profession as a whole in the coming years.

The quality control isn't there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine_in_the_United_States#Identity_crisis

bth

Thanks for the link. And I agree with you. This should be a concern. I lost confidence way back with the development of RVU. LCME would never have allowed that. DO's want respect yet the AOA continues to challenge quality on many fronts.

I think the first and foremost issue should be a MUCH tighter grip on expansion.

 

[Cp22kjer]

What would be really awesome would be comprehensive surveys of students from many schools, and rankings according to student satisfaction.

It's funny you mentioned that. I actually called schools and attempted to get info like this. Two schools threw some data at me.

 

[bth7]

It's funny you mentioned that. I actually called schools and attempted to get info like this. Two schools threw some data at me.

Excellent. Now it just needs to be compared and PUBLISHED. Preferably by a neutral 3rd party.

bth

 

[Bacchus]

All of your sentiments over the past few pages should be taken seriously, bth. The problem I have is the broad generalization. I know you respect the older, well known schools moreso than newer ones but some readers are going to see this as an even keel assessment. We do need people to weigh in, but I'm afraid that's not going to happen since it hasn't happen. And for those that have given their thoughts, they obviously weren't taken seriously...RVU comes to mind. The UNE situation and a situation out west confirm it. Luckily the OSU situation was taken care of and handled promptly and professionally.

 

[bth7]

All of your sentiments over the past few pages should be taken seriously, bth. The problem I have is the broad generalization. I know you respect the older, well known schools moreso than newer ones but some readers are going to see this as an even keel assessment. We do need people to weigh in, but I'm afraid that's not going to happen since it hasn't happen. And for those that have given their thoughts, they obviously weren't taken seriously...RVU comes to mind. The UNE situation and a situation out west confirm it. Luckily the OSU situation was taken care of and handled promptly and professionally.

I hear you, every word. And I respect what you are saying.

About the generalizations, I hear that concern too. My problem is that there's the implication (not from you, but in general) that the burden somehow falls on me, or others who raise the concerns.

Quite frankly, its not my responsibility to raise every single specific problem, and list every failed clinical rotation at every single school.

At a certain point you have to say, we have a problem, in general. We, as osteopathic students, have a general problem with the overall direction of our profession. Specifically,

• Our schools have and still are expanding too fast.
• Our faculty do not have enough power to ensure educational quality at our schools.
• Our schools don't have enough full-time faculty, and COCA doesn't mandate the schools maintain a high faculty:student ratio
• Too much power is in the hands of individual administrative boards at schools. Students and faculty have too little opportunities for input.
• Our clinical years lack cohesion, oversight, and quality control; and generally have a "hit or miss" quality to them.
• Meaningful clinical exposure is sorely lacking from years 1 & 2
• The whole notion of "osteopathic uniqueness" (let alone OMM) gets thrown out the window after 2nd year.
• Schools favor model of expansion that favors economic benefits of the school over educational quality for the students
• Our schools pay less, on average, for our rotations than allopathic or even Carribean schools do.
• Our tuitions are the same, if not higher, than these schools, while the product we receive is of lower quality.
• The culture of research, investigation and inquiry at our schools is sorely lacking.
• Information about osteopathic schools is sorely lacking. The AOA doesn't track us, and doesn't make public the studies that are done.
• Though sadly outdated, the AOA keeps repeating the same BS: "DOs focus on the whole patient and are more likely to enter primary care."
  • MD schools have increasingly embraced holistic patient care models, and now offer BETTER opportunities to students legitimately interested in holistic care.
  • MD schools offer increasing incentives to students interested in primary care, tuition breaks, scholarships, etc - which are not offered at DO schools.
  • We graduate, on average, with higher debt burdens than our allopathic counterparts, making primary care an even more difficult career choice to make.
• DO students vote with their feet, walking away from AOA-accredited residency programs which they perceive to be inferior to ACGME programs.
• A minority of DO students now chose to stay in the osteopathic world for residency.

These are ALL generalizations. There are MANY exceptions. My goal is to understand the exceptions, the successful schools, and use them as a guide for moving the DO world forward. What are the "good" schools doing? How are they doing it? How can the rest of us get it right? How can real change happen for this profession?

In the meantime, it's buyer beware.


bth

 

[CCLCMer]

Wrong again. Osteopathic student receive less financial aid, and graduate with more debt.

And allopathic schools have gotten serious about financial aid to med students, especially those interested in primary care.

From US News and World report:
The Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine is waiving tuition for all future students who practice medicine and conduct research in primary care or any specialty. The University of Central Florida, which paid all tuition and living expenses for the incoming class at its new med school, is raising money for 120 more full scholarships. The Mayo Clinic is waiving 50 percent of tuition to all who are admitted (some can get more). Harvard, Yale, and Stanford also offer big tuition breaks for students from middle-income families.

bth

Actually, the mission of CCLCM is to train physician scientists, not primary care practitioners (or even primary care researchers). I don't know where USNWR got that primary care idea from concerning CCLCM. It would be more accurate to compare this program to an MD/PhD program. Most MD/PhD programs pay for their students' med school tuition, either using NIH money (MSTP programs) or funding from the school itself.

Our situation is unique though, because it is not our med school (Case Western Reserve) that is giving us the scholarships. Instead, the tuition is paid by the Cleveland Clinic, which is a private hospital (and not even Case's primary affiliate hospital). So Case still receives the full amount of money for our tuition as if we were paying it ourselves. Of course, from the student's perspective, it doesn't matter if someone else pays the bill versus if the bill is just written off via scholarship. Free is free. But from Case's perspective, it matters a lot. If Case were the one providing the funding, they wouldn't be able to afford to give full scholarships to so many students (160 of us in all, counting all five classes).

At any rate, it's true enough that the rationale for our scholarships is analogous to the reason why some other schools give scholarships to people who go into primary care: there aren't enough physician scientists, and since physician scientists earn significantly less money on average than full-time private practice clinicians do, it's hard for students with significant debt to choose a career in research.

I agree with whoever said that the main reason why osteo students end up in more debt on average is because most of the schools are private, and a lot of private schools charge exorbitant tuition. The students in Case's University Program have a COA that tops $70,000 this year, and I can't imagine there are too many schools, osteo or allo, charging much more than that. But a lot of allo students are able to attend state schools, which are significantly cheaper. For example, the students going to Ohio State pay significantly less than what the UP students pay (and what CCF pays for us).

Out of curiosity, why wouldn't DO grads who want to go into primary care join the national health service corps and go practice in an underserved area in return for loan repayment? Likewise, current students who know they will definitely go into primary care could apply for a national health service corps scholarship. Maybe you guys already discussed this, so sorry if I missed it because I'm so late to this conversation.

 

[NontradICUdoc]

I have been reading with great interest what has been going on in the last 12 hours. And it is very personal because before getting into UMDNJ, I was about to go to UNE.

There are several things that prospectives students MUST do before deciding on where to not only apply but also where to matriculate should they be accepted. However, if you look on the pre-osteo board, you have the blind leading the blind. How many "where should I apply" threads pop up every year at this time? Countless. And many times, they are new students who have not been here before. So my question is why are they asking strangers when they should be asking their Pre-Professional office?

Second, as pre medical students who plan to become doctors, it is of the utmost importance that an applicant be we familiar with the schools they have chosen. I have done many tours of my school during interview day and I always say that if the applicant does not have any questions, they are not properly prepared. What are some of the questions that should be asked? Well the ones that are being asked here.

1) Where do students do their rotations during 3rd and 4th year?
2) Is the hospital or hospitals that they go to in good financial positions so that there is no threat of closure?
3) Who sets up the rotations? The school or the student?
4) What kind of clinical exposure do 1st and 2nd year students get?
5) What kind of faculty teach? Are they full time, part time, or volunteer?

These are things that need to be taken into consideration and should be asked before application season even starts. Many schools have student ambassadors that the admissions office will give their e-mail address to prospective students to ask questions to. The problem is that some of the applicants are lazy and do not want to go through this rigamarole and will rather just go to the school that they get accepted. Then 1 month into school, they are on the message boards asking people if it is possible to transfer because they hate their school.

There is a level of maturity that is required to look at all of these possibilities that many students straight out of college do not have. They are still 21 years old with little to no responsibility other than to themselves. And they still rely on their parents to help them make decisions. We have all been there, but it is for this reason that these issues can creep up.

As far as what is going on at UNE. There are details regarding the closure of the medical center that we are just not getting here on the message board. There may be things that we just will not find out until much later. Could there even be a lawsuit on behalf of the 20,000 people that are no longer with a health care provider? Or from an Academic Guild? Or even from a lawyer who is sympathetic to the students? We do not know. Those that are affected should do everything that they can. The students, by way of SOMA should immediately contact the AOA and demand an answer. If the AOA is wasting its money trying to fight TCOM from getting an Allopathic school on its campus, then it can prod the administration of UNE to come up with an explanation for their actions. And if Obama can get involved in a petty dispute between the Police and a private citizen in Boston, he can certainly stick his nose into the fact that 20,000 people are losing primary care. Especially since he is pushing his reform of healthcare.

The SOMAs from the different schools should get together and demand that the national SOMA board send a letter of support for the students of UNE to the AOA and the Administration of UNE to show solidarity. Maybe then, the AOA will get a fire lit in their backside and start spending money on things more important.

 

[kushdog1]

bth, your words are troubling because you're painting all Osteopathic schools with one brush. Some schools may be as you describe, but not all are. Look at Nova. The students there rotate at Jackson Memorial, alongside UM students.

Now look at FSU. The students there are shipped away for rotations all over the place because they don't have a hospital. By your reasoning, Nova would be an MD school and FSU would be a DO school. But they're not.

I thought we learned to stop stereotyping back in grade school?

I am with you. NOVA is not perfect but it is good compared to the rest. I know I have been there going on the 4Th year.

 

[bth7]

So my question is why are they asking strangers when they should be asking their Pre-Professional office?

Because many students don't have pre-prof offices. Or the pre-prof offices simply don't know these kinds of details. Many pre-prof offices are not very familiar with osteopathic schools, mine certainly wasn't.

The problem is that some of the applicants are lazy and do not want to go through this rigamarole and will rather just go to the school that they get accepted. Then 1 month into school, they are on the message boards asking people if it is possible to transfer because they hate their school.

There is a level of maturity that is required to look at all of these possibilities that many students straight out of college do not have. They are still 21 years old with little to no responsibility other than to themselves. And they still rely on their parents to help them make decisions. We have all been there, but it is for this reason that these issues can creep up.

This is true. But also, schools mislead students, actively. They give sales pitches and fancy brochures. They cherry pick tour guides and student contact personnel. Nervous pre-meds get taken in.

As far as what is going on at UNE. Could there even be a lawsuit on behalf of the 20,000 people that are no longer with a health care provider? Or from an Academic Guild? Or even from a lawyer who is sympathetic to the students? We do not know. Those that are affected should do everything that they can. If the AOA is wasting its money trying to fight TCOM from getting an Allopathic school on its campus, then it can prod the administration of UNE to come up with an explanation for their actions. And if Obama . . .

Unfortunately, the AOA, SOMA, a lawyer, and even yes, Obama are really not going to be able to change this situation at UNE. Not by a long shot. It's just not how things work. The AOA has absolutely no interest in making changes like this. You will get the same stone-cold silence that students are getting from the school now.

Asking questions is the best possible approach. But you have to BE SKEPTICAL. Ask the tough questions, especially with regard to 3rd and 4th year rotations. That's where the questions should be focused, after they hand you their "list of hospitals."

How many students are taken at each of these hospitals? (They'll often throw in the name of a respectable hospital to distract you, but not tell you that only one student/year rotates there.)

How many students will be assigned to a particular rotation? (30 students assigned to the same surgery rotation means you won't get to scrub in on cases.)

Is it a teaching hospital with supervision for students to assist with procedures? (if its not you'll never put in an IV, never assist with a central line placement, never do an ABG, never learn to suture a laceration. You'll stand there, watching, for two years b/c students aren't covered by hospital insurance policy.)

How many times will you have to move 3rd and 4th years? (If you have to move every 3 months from upstate to downstate to Michigan to get all your required rotations in, you'll be so displaced it will be nearly impossible to focus on learning.)

Will my rotations be inpatient? (An OG/GYN "rotation" at an outpatient clinic means you'll never see a delivery, let alone assist with one. A Medicine rotation at an outpatient clinic means you'll never do an admission, never work-up a patient for MI or Stroke or Afib or GI bleed, or anything else.)

Does the hospital count DOs and Carribean students together? Hospitals/DO schools have started to do this sneaky thing to pack students on rotations. The have quotas on the number of med students they can have on a rotation, but they count DO students separately from MD students (Caribbean) allowing them to take twice as many students.

Is there an organized didactic program at the hospital in which med students can participate? Students sent to hospitals without residency programs in that department. No residency program means no lectures, no teaching rounds, no attendings willing to round on their patients with students. No interns/residents there to help students along.

Does the school compensate attendings to teach? No $$ = no teaching. Attendings are busy people. If you don't pay them to take the time out of their day to teach, they have no incentive to teach.

What rotations are required? What is available? No required neurology rotation means they had such a hard time finding neurology rotations for students that they couldn't require students do one. No neurosurg rotation available means no chance to see neurosurg. No child psych rotation means you won't be seeing child psych.

Which professors from years 1&2 will be continuing to teach students years 3&4? No continuity in teaching means a massive disconnect in your education.

Investigate your field of interest. If you have an interest in peds, ask to speak to someone in the pediatrics department about the rotation. Ask them what the rotation is like for med students. If you can't talk to anyone at all for even a few minutes, this is a red flag.

Ask the tough questions. Don't be fooled by vague promises and a "list of hospitals."

Don't rely solely on admissions personnel. Talk to 4th year students who can tell you their experience with trying to arrange their rotations. Find out what its really like.

bth

 

[PunkmedGirl]

I have been reading with great interest what has been going on in the last 12 hours. And it is very personal because before getting into UMDNJ, I was about to go to UNE.

There are several things that prospectives students MUST do before deciding on where to not only apply but also where to matriculate should they be accepted. However, if you look on the pre-osteo board, you have the blind leading the blind. How many "where should I apply" threads pop up every year at this time? Countless. And many times, they are new students who have not been here before. So my question is why are they asking strangers when they should be asking their Pre-Professional office?

Second, as pre medical students who plan to become doctors, it is of the utmost importance that an applicant be we familiar with the schools they have chosen. I have done many tours of my school during interview day and I always say that if the applicant does not have any questions, they are not properly prepared. What are some of the questions that should be asked? Well the ones that are being asked here.

1) Where do students do their rotations during 3rd and 4th year?
2) Is the hospital or hospitals that they go to in good financial positions so that there is no threat of closure?
3) Who sets up the rotations? The school or the student?
4) What kind of clinical exposure do 1st and 2nd year students get?
5) What kind of faculty teach? Are they full time, part time, or volunteer?

I completely agree with you on this. I'm applying next cycle and have sent out about 50 emails to various schools digging out information concerning clinical exposure and rotations.

 

[bigDinLV]

Thanks for the clarification. The difference is thus: at my school (Touro), we have to set up many of our rotations on our own (meaning we apply to be visiting students at hospitals non-affiliated with the school). There are some affiliated sites, but much less than would be required to actually take all the students. There are no residency programs associated with the school. There are no faculty employed by the school at these sites.

In many cases, the affiliated hospitals that do exist are far away. Requiring one to move 3, 4, 5 times in the course of one year.

bth

Once again, you are incorrect. Below is proof. Don't be so eager to always slam Touro.

162639
TUCOM/Valley Hospital Medical Center - Internal Medicine Residency
Internal Medicine
Las Vegas
NV

162647
TUCOM/Valley Hospital Medical Center - Family Practice Residency
Family Practice and OMT
Las Vegas
NV

170044
TUCOM/Valley Hospital Medical Center - Dermatology Residency
Dermatology
Las Vegas
NV

175783
TUCOM/Valley Hospital Medical Center - Ophthalmology Residency
Ophthalmology
Las Vegas
NV

183215
TUCOM/Valley Hospital Medical Center - Neurology Residency
Neurology
Las Vegas
NV​

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Once again, you are incorrect. Below is proof. Don't be so eager to always slam Touro.

162639
TUCOM/Valley Hospital Medical Center - Internal Medicine Residency
Internal Medicine
Las Vegas
NV​

162647
TUCOM/Valley Hospital Medical Center - Family Practice Residency
Family Practice and OMT
Las Vegas
NV​

170044
TUCOM/Valley Hospital Medical Center - Dermatology Residency
Dermatology
Las Vegas
NV​

175783
TUCOM/Valley Hospital Medical Center - Ophthalmology Residency
Ophthalmology
Las Vegas
NV​

183215
TUCOM/Valley Hospital Medical Center - Neurology Residency
Neurology
Las Vegas

NV​

Nice.

 

[bth7]

Once again, you are incorrect. Below is proof. Don't be so eager to always slam Touro.

162639
TUCOM/Valley Hospital Medical Center - Internal Medicine Residency
Internal Medicine
Las Vegas
NV

162647
TUCOM/Valley Hospital Medical Center - Family Practice Residency
Family Practice and OMT
Las Vegas
NV

170044
TUCOM/Valley Hospital Medical Center - Dermatology Residency
Dermatology
Las Vegas
NV

175783
TUCOM/Valley Hospital Medical Center - Ophthalmology Residency
Ophthalmology
Las Vegas
NV

183215
TUCOM/Valley Hospital Medical Center - Neurology Residency
Neurology
Las Vegas
NV​

#1 Those are all for Touro-NV. (Notice the location: Las Vegas)

#2 I've said consistently that Touro-NV has its act together one more notch than Touro-CA.

#3 I know MANY people who did rotations at Valley. In their words, "nightmare." I'm sure that doesn't account for everyone experience, some people I imagine are happy there. How many of "Valley"'s residency spots went unfilled after the match this year? 50% ?



Go ahead, "prove" me wrong.

Ignore the problems I'm speaking about.

bth

 

[bigDinLV]

#1 Those are all for Touro-NV. (Notice the location: Las Vegas)

#2 I've said consistently that Touro-NV has its act together one more notch than Touro-CA.

#3 I know MANY people who did rotations at Valley. In their words, "nightmare." I'm sure that doesn't account for everyone experience, some people I imagine are happy there. How many of "Valley"'s residency spots went unfilled after the match this year? 50% ?



Go ahead, "prove" me wrong.

Ignore the problems I'm speaking about.

bth

You're pretty easy to prove wrong.

#1 you always say Touro, never making a specification of which campus. Although they may be considered individual schools, all of them fall under Touro University. So yes, "Touro" does have residency programs.

#2 I do agree that NV has it better than CA.

#3 Define "nightmare". A rotation on pulm/ICU with Dr. Stewart? Where he pimps you silly, but you learn a ton. People do not look forward to that, but end up happy because of what they get to take with them and become better doctors.

None of the medicine rotations are especially terrible. Some are better than others, but not all that bad. You still get to experience quite a bit.

Maybe a nightmare because of long hours and hard work? Too bad for people that want to cry about something like that.

I've done ICU, medicine x2, ER, neurology, some peds (newborn), and some neurosurgery patients at Valley. Got what feels like a solid education that I would put up against anyone else.

As far as unfilled spots.. the unfilled spots are in medicine and FP. It isn't uncommon for spots like that to go unfilled. Plus they may have the program oversized right now, leaving open positions. The progam was about to be capped meaning they could not get more positions even if they get more specialties. the new specialties would be taken from the current positions for traditional internships and possibly medicine.

Doesn't seem like I have any problem trying to "prove" you wrong. Almost too easy, as usual.

 

[bth7]

Doesn't seem like I have any problem trying to "prove" you wrong. Almost too easy, as usual.

Dude,

I have no problem with you having a massively different experience. Everything I have said about Touro stands.

You know as well as I do, that the concerns I'm raising are fully legit. That's what they are: concerns.

Many overcome them (yourself and myself included). But dude, there are still there.

And I'm not just talking about Touro. I'm talking about osteopathic medicine, which allows the kind of BD that goes on at Touro, to go on.

That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying the skying is falling, that we should all freak out. I'm saying that there's some shady **** going on at a lot of DO schools, like Touro, and people should be aware of it. Especially before they lay down a quarter of a million dollars.

That's how much debt I have after Touro. Are you sure you got your money's worth?

bth

 

[passthekoolaid]

.

 

[Bacchus]

Con: Osteopathy of the cranial field. We have a DO on faculty that claims she can tell if someone is touching the foot of the person she is "treating" by a change in her perception of "energy." Seriously? I didn't know "using the force" was going to be part of my "medical" training.

Aside from the nonsense of OPP there are a few other cons. Poorly organized curriculum comes to mind. A lack of focus on the underlying pathophysiology of disease always frustrates me. The focus on clinical relevance is nice, but I'm afraid that sometimes is done at the expense of the fundamentals. As a result, I have chosen to let Dr. Robbins, Dr. Harrison and Dr. Katzung educate me this year... and given the garbage this school pawns off as "handouts" and "lectures" (we have a few professors that literally "blah, blah, blah" their way through lecture ... I think one even said "this is the worst lecture ever" at one point) I don't see that changing any time soon...

Telling what school you're from would help... because you don't go to our school.

 

[bth7]

. . . I'm afraid that sometimes is done at the expense of the fundamentals. As a result, I have chosen to let Dr. Robbins, Dr. Harrison and Dr. Katzung educate me this year... and given the garbage this school pawns off as "handouts" and "lectures" . . .

Those were my professors too! Wow.

Nothing but the best . . .

bth

 

[snurpy]

Dude,

I have no problem with you having a massively different experience. Everything I have said about Touro stands.

You know as well as I do, that the concerns I'm raising are fully legit. That's what they are: concerns.

Many overcome them (yourself and myself included). But dude, there are still there.

And I'm not just talking about Touro. I'm talking about osteopathic medicine, which allows the kind of BD that goes on at Touro, to go on.

That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying the skying is falling, that we should all freak out. I'm saying that there's some shady **** going on at a lot of DO schools, like Touro, and people should be aware of it. Especially before they lay down a quarter of a million dollars.

That's how much debt I have after Touro. Are you sure you got your money's worth?

bth

I think you put too much weight on hearsay, on a few words that were spoken about the other Touro schools. You're entitled to have your opinion about the Touro you come from, but please don't lump all Touros together, or all osteopathic schools together. You don't know firsthand what our experience is at Touro-NY. It doesn't even seem like you have a representative idea of what the experience is like at Touro-NV either, based on BigDinLV's posts.

It serves no purpose to badmouth others' schools. You could have come from any medical school, allopathic, osteopathic, Caribbean, whatever. I think the point is no matter your stats going in, to graduate med school and obtain a US residency, you're still going to have to pull stats that are extremely difficult to obtain without hard work and studying. It doesn't mean that Touro is a diploma mill handing out DO degrees to the next idiot on line.

 

[bth7]

I think you put too much weight on hearsay, on a few words that were spoken about the other Touro schools. You're entitled to have your opinion about the Touro you come from, but please don't lump all Touros together, or all osteopathic schools together. You don't know firsthand what our experience is at Touro-NY. It doesn't even seem like you have a representative idea of what the experience is like at Touro-NV either, based on BigDinLV's posts.

It serves no purpose to badmouth others' schools. You could have come from any medical school, allopathic, osteopathic, Caribbean, whatever. I think the point is no matter your stats going in, to graduate med school and obtain a US residency, you're still going to have to pull stats that are extremely difficult to obtain without hard work and studying. It doesn't mean that Touro is a diploma mill handing out DO degrees to the next idiot on line.

My words on not based on hearsay alone. Some of what I've said is based on talking to many Touro-NY students, including close personal friends, but I've also personally experienced one of their largest rotation sites, St John's Episcopal. I've dealt with the parent organization, Touro College, for some time now.

Touro-NY has no clinical departments. There is no "department of surgery" or pediatrics, psychiatry, . There's not even a single, full-time tenured psychiatrist, cardiologist, radiologist, orthopedist, or pulmonologist working for the school on their main campus, accessible to students every day.

I'm not "bad mouthing" Touro, I'm not suggesting its a degree mill, and I'm not suggesting students don't work hard.

I am raising serious concerns about the overall quality of education. For many students, they have no problem; they get good rotations, etc. But, many do not. Many students are deeply frustrated by the gaps in their education.

To quote the President of the American Association of Osteopathic Medical Colleges:

The simultaneous movement away from osteopathic medicine's traditionally separate training and practice systems, when coupled with its rapid growth, has created a sense of crisis as to its future. The rapid rate of growth has raised questions as to the availability of clinical and basic science faculty and clinical resources to accommodate the increasing load of students.

-Shannon, S. (Jun 2009). "The status and future of osteopathic medical education in the United States". Academic medicine : journal of the Association of American Medical Colleges 84 (6): 707–711. PMID 19474542​

And Norman Gevitz:

DO schools are currently expanding their class sizes much more quickly than are their MD counterparts. Unlike MD colleges, where it is widely known that academic faculty members—fearing dilution of quality as well as the prospect of an increased teaching workload—constitute a powerful inhibiting force to expand class size, osteopathic faculty at private osteopathic schools have traditionally had little or no input on such matters. Instead, these decisions are almost exclusively the responsibility of college administrators and their boards of trustees, who look at such expansion from an entrepreneurial as well as an educational perspective. Osteopathic medical schools can keep the cost of student body expansion relatively low compared with that of MD institutions. Although the standards of the Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation ensure that there will be enough desks and lab spaces to accommodate all new students, they do not mandate that an osteopathic college must bear the expense of maintaining a high full-time-faculty:student ratio.

Gevitz, N. (Jun 2009). "The transformation of osteopathic medical education". Academic medicine : journal of the Association of American Medical Colleges 84 (6): 701–706. PMID 19474540.​

 

[bigDinLV]

You do have one valid point, we may be growing too fast. The current lack of sites or clinical faculty will catch up in time.

A private institution may even put money first, over student worries. Occasionally they may have to do things to pay the bills.


Bottom line is that it really isn't as bad as some people make it out to be. I'm sure people at every school have complaints. They just don't try to make everyone look bad over it.

 

[bth7]

You do have one valid point, we may be growing too fast. The current lack of sites or clinical faculty will catch up in time.

A private institution may even put money first, over student worries.

This is what I am saying exactly.

Our schools lack sites and clinical faculty.

In my opinion, this is the whole point of medical school. Clinical faculty. Clinical education. I don't really give a darn about Step 1 prep (years 1&2). Any monkey teach themselves step 1 with enough time, the right books, and a million practice questions.

Its the clinical years that really count. And they are very problematic right now.

This is from a recent post about Touro-NY:

I'm rotating with some pretty unhappy TouroNY students right now. They said that when they applied and interviewed, they were given a list of hospitals in Manhattan where they were told that they'd be rotating. Now that they are third years, they have very few hospitals period because they aren't allowed to infringe on other med school's territories (ie Einstein, NYCOM, etc.) They have places in the Bronx, New Jersey and Staten Island for the most part, nothing at all in Manhattan. They have ONE place for psych (meaning - that hospital is completely over-saturated with students).

I feel bad for them, it really seems like they were tricked.

This is what's frustrating about Touro-NY and Touro-CA. They open the schools, but the sites aren't there. There are dozens of students packed on to the same rotation.

Some of my rotations, the attending just split everyone into groups and said "Each group comes one day a week." Can u imagine? Doing your 3rd year core medicine rotation and showing up 4 days a month?

Complaints to the dean/school would be met with "well, the only other rotation that has space is in Michigan."

So students learned not to complain to avoid these kinds of consequences. Getting shipped across the country for 2 months.

These practices are sketchy. And when students are silenced with these kinds of consequences, it only makes the problem worse.

Some students became so frustrated, that they just set up ALL their 4th year rotations on their own. Paying huge applications fees themselves, and relying on the goodwill of other schools to take them in for a month, investing huge amounts of time to do the leg work to set up 12 months of visiting rotations.

That's fine, but what did those students pay 40,000 for ? The school provided them with nothing.

Private institutions paying their bills is one thing. Breaking the basic contract to provide an education to the students is another.

bth

 

[Just Joshin]

Does anyone else feel like this thread has gone completely off-track? This was supposed to be a way for students to introduce others to their school with a "report card", not for DO students to belly ache that they're not MDs and how much better allo schools are.

I'm sorry that some of you had it so rough, but the grass is always greener....

There are plenty of people who have bad things to say about allo schools. I personally know several myself who hate their allo school. If you search for FSU in the pre-allo forum, you'll also see many posts from FSU med students who try to warn pre-meds not to go there.

It's a fact of life and there's nothing wrong with sharing your wisdom, but this thread was supposed to be a comprehensive list of schools and their pros and cons -- curriculum, library, professors, third-year rotations. Now it's just one big snoozefest of detractors who can't see past one issue and feel the need to hijack this thread instead of starting another one. When you come across, as some of you do, so dramatic and hating everything about life -- "my school sucks!!! Don't anyone go there!!! Ever!!! Worst decision of your entire life!!! They ruined me!!! I hate them!!!" -- and go on and on for two dozen posts, your whole argument becomes moot because it sounds like someone who's extremely bitter and has an ax to grind instead of someone who wants to point out the bad while ackowledging that it wasn't exactly San Quentin.

 

[bth7]

"my school sucks!!! Don't anyone go there!!! Ever!!! Worst decision of your entire life!!! They ruined me!!! I hate them!!!"

I wouldn't tell anyone to never attend Touro.
Going to Touro WASN'T the worst decision of my life.
They didn't ruin me.
I don't hate them.

Touro-CA has serious problems, especially with clinical rotations and clinical professors. Those problems are part of larger trend with the osteopathic community as a whole, towards more new schools that are disorganized and chronically under-resourced.

But, I have no regrets. I made a decision to go to Touro, and I'd probably do it again. I needed to go to school in SF. UCSF wasn't a option for me. Going to school outside of SF area wasn't an option either. That's the set of constraints that I was facing.

I think things would have been better for me there if I had known before hand what I was getting into.

Instead, I was fed a bunch of BS by osteopathic people claiming some holistic philosophy to being a DO (when in fact there are more MD schools with this philosophy). And a bunch of BS by Touro admissions people, who made wildly inaccurate claims about Touro's clinical rotations.

Having said that, the sky is not falling. The world is not ending. Life goes on and you learn to make lemonade out of lemons.

The story of Touro and the recent trends in osteopathic education are a disturbing part of the picture, but they are not the whole picture. The whole picture includes an additional element: you.

Its been said many times before, more eloquently, and by folks much wiser than me, but it is so true: in the end, what matters is what happens between you and your patients. Your med school won't be in the exam room with you.

You can make that relationship what you want it to be. You make the decisions. You're the doc. If you are a good one, and you care, patients will seek you out, and your life as a physician will be a powerful healing force in many lives.

That's what matters.

bth

 

[clement]

Dude,

I have no problem with you having a massively different experience. Everything I have said about Touro stands.

You know as well as I do, that the concerns I'm raising are fully legit. That's what they are: concerns.

Many overcome them (yourself and myself included). But dude, there are still there.

And I'm not just talking about Touro. I'm talking about osteopathic medicine, which allows the kind of BD that goes on at Touro, to go on.

That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying the skying is falling, that we should all freak out. I'm saying that there's some shady **** going on at a lot of DO schools, like Touro, and people should be aware of it. Especially before they lay down a quarter of a million dollars.

That's how much debt I have after Touro. Are you sure you got your money's worth?

bth