Pros/cons of no lectures?

[mariposas905]

Can anyone comment on the pros and cons of a flipped med school curriculum that has no lectures? I'm thinking this gives students more free time to study, but could it also be less structured making it easier to fall behind in med school?

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[LongLiveThanos]

It depends on the type of student you are. For those who learn best in a structured curriculum, flipped curriculum may be difficult to adjust. For others who self studied without going to lectures in undergrad, flipped curriculum may be preferable. I would assume that students need to be very motivated and rarely distracted to succeed in a flipped classroom curriculum. As a procrastinator, I would've failed medical school with a flipped curriculum.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I agree with the above. Absolutely depends on what kind of learner you are. Many schools have active learning curriculum, PBL and Independent study. Be very honest and clear with yourself before you go this route.

 

[Goro]

Can anyone comment on the pros and cons of a flipped med school curriculum that has no lectures? I'm thinking this gives students more free time to study, but could it also be less structured making it easier to fall behind in med school?

Pro: Evidence shows that active learning is better than passive, and improves retention of knowledge. MOre efficient use of time for adult learners.

Cons: You need to be able to to be a good self-learner and more disciplined, because you won't be spoon fed information. Also, since you can't ask a question to a live professor, clearing up misconceptions, or confusing info will be delayed. Some people need live lectures as their first pass, so this system actually discriminates against them.

 

[907914]

Pro: Evidence shows that active learning is better than passive, and improves retention of knowledge. MOre efficient use of time for adult learners.

Cons: You need to be able to to be a good self-learner and more disciplined, because you won't be spoon fed information. Also, since you can't ask a question to a live professor, clearing up misconceptions, or confusing info will be delayed. Some people need live lectures as their first pass, so this system actually discriminates against them.

Isn’t that the point of a flipped classroom though? Learn the material on your own and then dedicated class time is just 100% questions? I guess that is how flipped has been at my school...

 

[deleted947265]

Can anyone comment on the pros and cons of a flipped med school curriculum that has no lectures? I'm thinking this gives students more free time to study, but could it also be less structured making it easier to fall behind in med school?

Only pros. Lecture is dead.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Our school had lectures, but they were not mandatory. In fact, we had large (understatement) note packets for almost all of the classes, and this is where the exam material came from. We still had mandatory labs and stuff, but not having to go to lecture and study from home made things much better. During MS-1, we had some PBL but that was limited to once weekly.

Therefore, for the person who prefers to work independently and not go to lectures, a lecture-heavy WITHOUT mandatory attendance is the way to go. Even if the school has mandatory lectures, you can study your own stuff with ear buds. If a school is heavy on PBL, then you will have to be there, which sucks. I didn't get much out of that.

But of course, to each their own!

 

[plshelpvanxious]

Sometimes I go to class to see people and feel somewhat social, but I pay more attention when I watch on my own. It doesn't have many negatives in my opinion besides the social element

 

[deleted962973]

Curious about which schools have this?

Harvard is probably the most famous example of a flipped classroom style curriculum. I’ve heard both good and bad things, bad primarily related to how much time you have to spend outside the classroom preparing for discussions.

 

[mistafab]

If I had the choice I would run away from flipped classrooms.

If it is your only option, then go for it. Being a doctor is worth the pain.

“Flipped classroom” if attendance is compulsory is code language for “you are forced to sit and chit chat with clueless students for 4-6 hours a day. Then you will spend the rest of the day preparing to waste another 4-6 hours tomorrow.” Meanwhile, a faculty member smirks in the corner about how they get to show up without preparing anything. The faculty member throws in quips about the material and quietly delights him/herself with how brilliant they are.

Again, if it was my only acceptance then I would accept whole-heartedly and drink the kool-aid. I’d highly prefer a more independent study curriculum, i.e. recorded lectures without compulsory attendance.. I went to a school that supported independent study and my friend went to a flipped classroom school. Let’s just say that this n=2 echoes what you hear on these boards of students loathing their school’s “new and improved” flipped curriculum or required daily pbl. Flipped curriculum is bad news in my opinion.

You went to med school to learn from an expert. Don’t sell yourself short if you don’t have to. You read the chapters 12-15 overnight for one class, you deserve 45 minutes of explanation by faculty. You do not deserve 45 minutes of beating your head against the desk as Karen or Kyle (made up names) bicker about some useless factoid again and again for the entire first half of the class.

 

[907914]

If I had the choice I would run away from flipped classrooms.

If it is your only option, then go for it. Being a doctor is worth the pain.

“Flipped classroom” if attendance is compulsory is code language for “you are forced to sit and chit chat with clueless students for 4-6 hours a day. Then you will spend the rest of the day preparing to waste another 4-6 hours tomorrow.” Meanwhile, a faculty member smirks in the corner about how they get to show up without preparing anything. The faculty member throws in quips about the material and quietly delights him/herself with how brilliant they are.

Again, if it was my only acceptance then I would accept whole-heartedly and drink the kool-aid. I’d highly prefer a more independent study curriculum, i.e. recorded lectures without compulsory attendance.. I went to a school that supported independent study and my friend went to a flipped classroom school. Let’s just say that this n=2 echoes what you hear on these boards of students loathing their school’s “new and improved” flipped curriculum or required daily pbl. Flipped curriculum is bad news in my opinion.

You went to med school to learn from an expert. Don’t sell yourself short if you don’t have to. You read the chapters 12-15 overnight for one class, you deserve 45 minutes of explanation by faculty. You do not deserve 45 minutes of beating your head against the desk as Karen or Kyle (made up names) bicker about some useless factoid again and again for the entire first half of the class.

I have always benefited from flipped classrooms. I am the kind of person who learns best from teaching, so with flipped classrooms, where I can vaguely teach myself the material, teach the material to other students the next day and ask faculty clarifying questions...At least for me it has always been more productive because, when I am in a group, I don't allow little bickerings like that to happen.

 

[mistafab]

...Kyle?

I have always benefited from flipped classrooms. I am the kind of person who learns best from teaching, so with flipped classrooms, where I can vaguely teach myself the material, teach the material to other students the next day and ask faculty clarifying questions...At least for me it has always been more productive because, when I am in a group, I don't allow little bickerings like that to happen.

 

[907914]

...Kyle?

Laa, niet, nein, Īe, no.

 

[ciestar]

My school went flipped classroom a few years ago. There are no inperson lectures, but, the online stuff does include lectures embedded into the material prepared by the same faculty that prepared the traditional curriculum for the number of years before that.

 

[meronebib]

Optional lectures always. Most of my friends who have mandatory sessions (PBL, TBL, flipped classrooms, etc.) spend significantly more time preparing for school and don’t find it to be an efficient way to study. Note that being inefficient doesn’t mean it’s not better, but when it comes to the volume of information you need to take in for medical school and the stakes at hand (Step 1), self-study seems to be the most efficient, especially with all the latest resources out there (like B&B and Pathoma). Optional lectures, I think, should give you more than enough time for self-study.

Source: M0 me

 

[Med Ed]

Can anyone comment on the pros and cons of a flipped med school curriculum that has no lectures? I'm thinking this gives students more free time to study, but could it also be less structured making it easier to fall behind in med school?

There are many ways to flip a classroom, the results will depend on the execution.

The ease of falling behind has more to do with how the school handles assessment rather than pedagogy.

Ultimately you should feel some degree of pain and frustration while learning; that's the cost of encoding durable memories. Unfortunately it's also a consequence of poor teaching. Try not to confuse the two.

 

[787593]

Can anyone comment on the pros and cons of a flipped med school curriculum that has no lectures? I'm thinking this gives students more free time to study, but could it also be less structured making it easier to fall behind in med school?

All lecture is a waste of time.

 

[medngame]

When I entered the application cycle for 2018-2019 I was of the mindset that traditional lecture is how I learn best because it was all I had. Experiencing PBL AND Flipped classroom (because they are not synonymous) while interviewing made me take a step back and really think about what I liked and disliked in all three. I’ve ended up committing to a school with primarily flipped classroom because I’ve always struggled with preparing myself before class with readings or previewing slides. Now that I know I will be called out, I will make sure I’m prepared. When given the opportunity of online lectures I procrastinate and cram, which spells disaster for medical school.

 

[wysdoc]

The flipped classroom approach presupposes that students will do the reading before arriving in class. It falls down when this doesn't happen, as much of what could be the discussion session devolves into, "What's that? I didn't read about that yet..." and the students who did read end up tutoring those who didn't.
Case study sessions are more popular as you can put what you have learned to work in analyzing a patient's symptoms and planning workup.

 

[907914]

and the students who did read end up tutoring those who didn't.

Lol this is why I, and those who study like me, do well in flipped classrooms. By learning through teaching others, we thrive on the incompetence of our unprepared peers.

 

[Goro]

The flipped classroom approach presupposes that students will do the reading before arriving in class. It falls down when this doesn't happen, as much of what could be the discussion session devolves into, "What's that? I didn't read about that yet..." and the students who did read end up tutoring those who didn't.

This can only go on for so long. In flipped classes, the students should be grading each other on their participation, because those high achievers do get tired of carrying the weak/lazy classmates. In addition, in TBL format, there is an individual assessment component, and as such, the weak/lazy students do get graded as such.

 

[907914]

because those high achievers do get tired of carrying the weak/lazy classmates

Do most high achievers not like aiding the weaker students? That has been my favorite part of undergrad...answering other people's questions is fantastic (primary theme running through my Work and Activites section, actually...)

 

[Goro]

Do most high achievers not like aiding the weaker students? That has been my favorite part of undergrad...answering other people's questions is fantastic (primary theme running through my Work and Activites section, actually...)

In my experience, they like the teaching part, but do get tired of people not pulling their weight.

Being the dad of a lazy and greedy 16 year old, I know that enabling doesn't improve thing either.

 

[wysdoc]

Do most high achievers not like aiding the weaker students? That has been my favorite part of undergrad...answering other people's questions is fantastic (primary theme running through my Work and Activites section, actually...)

I think they just get tired of propping up others, when a decent discussion among peers ready to talk about a topic is more mutually beneficial

 

[M&L]

Curious about which schools have this?

drexel does, for example

 

[Peter Pan.]

As someone who has never cared for lectures I'm really hoping I get into a school that doesn't require lectures. I saw a youtube video of a med student who was going to a school that required them. They and there classmates just surfed the net or did light studying. They said it was a waste of time and wished they weren't required. Thats exactly what would happen to me. I feel like it would be a waste of time.

 

[deleted962973]

As someone who has never cared for lectures I'm really hoping I get into a school that doesn't require lectures. I saw a youtube video of a med student who was going to a school that required them. They and there classmates just surfed the net or did light studying. They said it was a waste of time and wished they weren't required. Thats exactly what would happen to me. I feel like it would be a waste of time.

The freedom to study on your own schedule is a beautiful thing. It was one of my biggest factors in choosing between schools.

 

[wanderingorion]

My question is what are they replacing the lectures with? Required attendance to “small group, etc.” for the same duration as the lectures would fill is excruciating

 

[deleted962973]

My question is what are they replacing the lectures with? Required attendance to “small group, etc.” for the same duration as the lectures would fill is excruciating

Many schools with non mandatory lectures still have lectures. They just record them and put them online so most students don’t go. I think the AAMC requires every med school to have some percent of TBL/PBL, but it’s lower at some schools than at others.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

It depends. on the way you learn... all these new innovative curriculum is just a different way of learning the same material. I am more traditional systems person... but now they have PBL's and all these other types of "learning".. You may/maynot like these... It seems like trying to fix things that are not really broken.

 

[Med Ed]

but now they have PBL's and all these other types of "learning"..

PBL was first used in an American medical school in 1975.

 

[ciestar]

Many schools with non mandatory lectures still have lectures. They just record them and put them online so most students don’t go. I think the AAMC requires every med school to have some percent of TBL/PBL, but it’s lower at some schools than at others.

That is the LCME doing so. Someone at my school (helps develop curriculum) literally told me the school wasn’t in compliance because there was too much lecture and not enough PBL/TBL for the one track.

 

[Med Ed]

I think the AAMC requires every med school to have some percent of TBL/PBL, but it’s lower at some schools than at others.

LCME Standard 6.3 Self-Directed and Life-Long Learning

The faculty of a medical school ensure that the medical curriculum includes self-directed learning experiences and unscheduled time to allow medical students to develop the skills of lifelong learning. Self-directed learning involves medical students’ self-assessment of learning needs; independent identification, analysis, and synthesis of relevant information; appraisal of the credibility of information sources; and feedback on these skills.

The LCME does not stipulate that schools have to utilize TBL/PBL, nor does it prescribe a certain percentage of lecture/non-lecture. However, TBL and PBL are both tried-and-true methods to satisfy standard 6.3, and schools that have gotten in trouble for being too lecture-heavy have been able to become compliant in part by cutting lecture to less than 50% of contact time. Hence, if you want to attend an accredited medical school, you will likely be attending one that has a -BL in lieu of 40 hours/week of lecture.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

PBL was first used in an American medical school in 1975.

But it appears to be implemented in schools more so recently than in the 90's or 2000's.

 

[deleted962973]

That is the LCME doing so. Someone at my school (helps develop curriculum) literally told me the school wasn’t in compliance because there was too much lecture and not enough PBL/TBL for the one track.

LCME Standard 6.3 Self-Directed and Life-Long Learning

The faculty of a medical school ensure that the medical curriculum includes self-directed learning experiences and unscheduled time to allow medical students to develop the skills of lifelong learning. Self-directed learning involves medical students’ self-assessment of learning needs; independent identification, analysis, and synthesis of relevant information; appraisal of the credibility of information sources; and feedback on these skills.

The LCME does not stipulate that schools have to utilize TBL/PBL, nor does it prescribe a certain percentage of lecture/non-lecture. However, TBL and PBL are both tried-and-true methods to satisfy standard 6.3, and schools that have gotten in trouble for being too lecture-heavy have been able to become compliant in part by cutting lecture to less than 50% of contact time. Hence, if you want to attend an accredited medical school, you will likely be attending one that has a -BL in lieu of 40 hours/week of lecture.

Lol I’m getting some conflicting feedback here. I got the accrediting body wrong (LCME not AAMC), but what I’ve heard mimics what @ciestar said- that schools are required to have some portion of their curriculum be PBL rather than lecture. Is that just one of those premed myths?

 

[Med Ed]

Lol I’m getting some conflicting feedback here. I got the accrediting body wrong (LCME not AAMC), but what I’ve heard mimics what @ciestar said- that schools are required to have some portion of their curriculum be PBL rather than lecture. Is that just one of those premed myths?

It's a misunderstanding. The LCME does not dictate pedagogies or percentages. But again, PBL and TBL are both well-recognized methods to satisfy standard 6.3, which is why most medical schools incorporate one or both into their respective curricula.

 

[Goro]

My question is what are they replacing the lectures with? Required attendance to “small group, etc.” for the same duration as the lectures would fill is excruciating

Look up "team based learning", for starters

It depends. on the way you learn... all these new innovative curriculum is just a different way of learning the same material. I am more traditional systems person... but now they have PBL's and all these other types of "learning".. You may/maynot like these... It seems like trying to fix things that are not really broken.

Being a med student, you're familiar with the concept of evidence-based learning, right? Well, there IS evidence backing up why active learning is better than passive learning. As much as I like lecturing, the "sage on the stage" approach is not as effective as the "guide on the side".

I agree that there are people who do get something from going to lecture (maybe 10% of my students, tops), and the move away from lecture does select against them.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

What's a "lecture"??

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Look up "team based learning", for starters



Being a med student, you're familiar with the concept of evidence-based learning, right? Well, there IS evidence backing up why active learning is better than passive learning. As much as I like lecturing, the "sage on the stage" approach is not as effective as the "guide on the side".

I agree that there are people who do get something from going to lecture (maybe 10% of my students, tops), and the move away from lecture does select against them.

I personally enjoy lecturing. That does not mean others enjoy it, its just that people learn differently. No matter what curriculum(PBL or TBL or whatever an institution calls) or a med school puts in, the students will adapt.. If grades are the measure of how students learn, the evidence may/maynot be an actual representation of how people learn or this is more effective than other... There are just so many factors such as other resources that are available to students than before. Internet has just changed the way you learn.