Pros/cons of switching to Organizational Psychology

[Cayetana]

Hi all...

I didn't get into a Counseling or Clinical PhD program this year (again).

I have a Masters in Psych (graduating this semester) with a 4.0 GPA, and I also have an MBA which I received in 2001.

That said, I'm starting to think about next year applying to Organizational Psychology PhD programs as well.

Could anyone who knows more about it help me out with some info?

1) Would it be easier to get in (is it less competitive)?

2) Would I still be able to work with people on LIFE ISSUES and people with mental disorders or would I be stuck in a corporate environment handling mainly employment type issues?

3) How varied are the kind of jobs I could get in this area?

4) Is it a problem that APA doesn't accredit (or is there another board that accredits this area)?

Thank you!!

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[blindblonde]

Well, first of all, I am no expert on this. I am merely taking an I/O class this semester as an undergrad and have no interest in seeking a degree in I/O. That being said, here's the little bit I know:

1. From what I can tell, I/O programs are pretty competitive. Easier to get into than clinical? Probably just by the numbers, but in gneral psych programs are not a cakewalk to enter.

2. I'm sure you can work with people's life issues still, although it might be more difficult to work with those who have mental illness. You can always do research in areas that I/O and clinical research overlap, which can get you into that area.

3. The sense I get is that you can teach and do research or get consulting jobs--or dabble in both. However, I/O jobs do pay better than clinical, and there is a less than 1% unemployment rate. You will pretty much get a decent job if you are actively seeking one.

4. No clue--but I would assume APA accreditation is best. I/O is still within the APA, and I assume that your degree should reflect the APA standards. I would double check this one though, because I really don't know.

I hope my little knowledge of the area helps, although I know there are a few I/O people around here who could probably speak better on the subject than I could. I just didn't see anyone responding to this thread, so I thought I could try to help.

Good luck to you!

 

[PsiKo]

4. No clue--but I would assume APA accreditation is best. I/O is still within the APA, and I assume that your degree should reflect the APA standards. I would double check this one though, because I really don't know.

APA accreditation applies only to licensure track doctoral programs in clinical, counseling, and school psychology. It would only come into play if you're in a dual degree clinical-I/O program.

Check out SIOP for more information.

 

[IOPsych]

Well, first of all, I am no expert on this. I am merely taking an I/O class this semester as an undergrad and have no interest in seeking a degree in I/O. That being said, here's the little bit I know:

1. From what I can tell, I/O programs are pretty competitive. Easier to get into than clinical? Probably just by the numbers, but in gneral psych programs are not a cakewalk to enter.

2. I'm sure you can work with people's life issues still, although it might be more difficult to work with those who have mental illness. You can always do research in areas that I/O and clinical research overlap, which can get you into that area.

3. The sense I get is that you can teach and do research or get consulting jobs--or dabble in both. However, I/O jobs do pay better than clinical, and there is a less than 1% unemployment rate. You will pretty much get a decent job if you are actively seeking one.

4. No clue--but I would assume APA accreditation is best. I/O is still within the APA, and I assume that your degree should reflect the APA standards. I would double check this one though, because I really don't know.

I hope my little knowledge of the area helps, although I know there are a few I/O people around here who could probably speak better on the subject than I could. I just didn't see anyone responding to this thread, so I thought I could try to help.

Good luck to you!

I will be attending school this fall for my PhD in I/O Psych. I agree with everything said above. Still competitive however based on sheer volume a little easier. I think most programs have around 100 apps for 4-6 spots. I have not seen many job opportunities around where I/O Psychologists work 1 on 1 with a person, its more an entire organization. Also you want to look at schools that are accredited by SIOP, I believe if they are accredited by SIOP it follows that the APA recognizes them, however it is not as important as a clinical program, because of the APA internship they will be seeking for clinical.

 

[Ollie123]

No accreditation means nothing, as others have mentioned, accreditation is only for licensure issues, and I/O psychs are in a different category.

I/O are still harder to get into than many things, but clinical psych is arguably the MOST competitve of all grad programs (though I've heard veterinary medicine is comparable or even harder). So expect it to be easier than clinical, but still incredibly difficult.

Know that I/O is VERY VERY different from other areas of psychology. You will not be "counseling" people with mental health problems. In fact, you won't be licensed and it will be illegal for you to represent yourself as a counselor. The closest you may get is if you get a job in an HR department, you may discuss sensitive but company-related issues, and refer people out for therapy. In other words, you may end up working with people who develop severe health problems and need to take a leave of absence, finding a way to keep them on staff, etc. As far as I know, that's as close as you'll get, and I have no idea how easy/hard it is to find those types of jobs in I/O.

Generally speaking, you will not have training in pathology, things of that nature. I/O focuses more on things like leadership development, motivation, etc.

 

[Cosmo 23]

I'm sorry but I just had to correct one error of fact. A person who has a PhD in organizational psychology can in fact go on to become licensed as a practicing psychologist. I worked at a fortune 50 company for four years with multiple people who had done so, in both North Carolina and New York states. It is NOT illegal...to say so and spread misinformation is irresonsible.

I'm not asserting it's ethical or that they're capable of providing psychotherapy given their training. But you can become licensed as a state licensed psychologist with a doctorate in organizational psychology, I know people who are. State laws vary and in some cases your licensiing may have additional levels of testing or you may be required to complete a post bac certificate. (although the people I know didn't have to)

 

[Ollie123]

Seriously?
How is this possible? Do you know any details? Licensing in NY requires 1500 pre-doc and 1500 postdoc supervised hours (or something along those lines), along with an APA internship.

Unless you meant these people went through the respecialization program some schools offer that is like 2 years and an internship for people who want to go from other fields of psychology into clinical, then it makes sense.

Would you mind asking some of these people what they did to get licensed as therapists if you are still in contact with them? I'm very curious, since that seems to violate any number of laws and guidelines regarding this. The IO programs I know barely scratch the surface on any psychopathology, so I actually find it incredibly unethical and borderline reckless on the part of NY and NC if they are allowed to be licensed.

 

[IOPsych]

I'm sorry but I just had to correct one error of fact. A person who has a PhD in organizational psychology can in fact go on to become licensed as a practicing psychologist. I worked at a fortune 50 company for four years with multiple people who had done so, in both North Carolina and New York states. It is NOT illegal...to say so and spread misinformation is irresonsible.

I'm not asserting it's ethical or that they're capable of providing psychotherapy given their training. But you can become licensed as a state licensed psychologist with a doctorate in organizational psychology, I know people who are. State laws vary and in some cases your licensiing may have additional levels of testing or you may be required to complete a post bac certificate. (although the people I know didn't have to)

Are you sure these people did not have PhD's in Clinical Psychology and then decided to pursue a job in a fortune 500 Company? I work in a fairly large consulting firm right now as I am getting ready to go back and get my PhD in I/O and we have a few psychologists that have clinical PhD's and decided to go the corporate route. I like Ollie find it hard to believe they would allow someone untrained in clinical areas to practice.

 

[Cosmo 23]

I mean this with all due respect, but what people believe or think isn't the same thing as what IS.

I know people who have doctoral degrees in org. psych (as well as educational psych for that matter) who have gone on to practice. Most of them obtained their supervised practice hours long after finishing their degrees and after long tenures in corporate settings. Clearly they're a small N, but they exist. Licensing is a case by case issue, based on guidelines, not absolutes, keep that in mind.

I don't intend to debate this any further, I just don't want original poster to make life decisions based on misinformation, which is what seems to be happening.

To the original poster...There is a dynamic and interesting (and well-paid!)world of organizational consulting out there, in interesting corporate settings. I've done diversity and organizaitonal development consulting for the last 8 years, first in a big 4 accounting firm and then in the largest media and entertainment company in the world. It's fascinating work, about systems, culture change and leadership, and definitely not HR. The corporate departments you want to look at, to get a sense or where the talented Org Psych people go is Talent Management. Not sure where you're located but pretty much every fortune 100, top privately held companies, and most banks (Goldman, Lehman) have thriving departments. Good luck to you!

 

[PsiKo]

Cosmo,

In corporate settings, how great an advantage is it to have a PhD in I/O vs. a master's-level I/O degree?

 

[Cosmo 23]

Psiko,

Good question...I'm sure people have different opinions. Based on my corporate experience, I think that if someone aspires to any kind of leadership position, (true leadership, not just managing a few people) a PhD is the right way to go. I've seen some good associates and managers who have masters in org psych. They are able to make significant contributions in staff level roles. But so was I, without the degree, and I know I was receiving comparable comp.

However, people at the top that are making impact within companies or that are consulting to top companies (ie, work at the best consultancies or have their own OD consultancies) generally have a PhD or a professional degree (like law). It's simply a credibility issue...more degrees = more perceived expertness and hence, credibility. At the companies and depts I've worked, a masters degree in anything is pretty much standard baseline degree to get those jobs. I was the only person in my dept without an org psych degree or mba, i think 5 had phds, 2 masters. So there were also people with PhDs working in staff/manager level jobs. The masters level org. psych programs have flooded the market with mid level professionals (at least in NYC) and hence, a masters in org pysch really isn't as rare or marketable as it once was, while a PhD always has cache and more perceived expertness. Again, all of my opinions are assuming we're talking about the TOP companies. Companies in the FORTUNE 20-50 and top banks, privately held companies. At mid tier companies, I'm sure it's a more wide open game, since there is more opportunity.

take care.

 

[IOPsych]

I am not as qualified as Cosmo to answer this question because I have only been working in a consulting firm for about 8 months but I agree with almost everything he said. Master's in I/O and Org. Psych will not get you very far in a consulting firm simply based on credibility. The firm or the business useing MAs as consultants would not be as marketable.
In the consulting firm I work for MAs play a support role for the PhDs, like helping with research, almost like a glorified assistant.
Every person I talked to in the firm when I was deciding whether to get an MA or PhD said the best way to go was the PhD, it opens more doors, is usually funded, pays more, and although looked down upon, if you really decide you want the MA and thats it, you can always leave the program after receiving it. I am in no way condoning this action, because I do realize it is a slap in the face to the program, however it can happen.
Side Note: Apparently right now I/O PhDs are so marketable, companies are snatching up students ABD, every school I've talked to says there are more jobs available then there are people to fill the jobs, so it is a emerging field.

 

[Ollie123]

I/O is definitely very marketable, there is no doubt of that. That's another reason the salary is so much higher than most other psych areas (I think around here its nearly double).

For the record, I wasn't trying to start a debate on the issue, I'm just honestly surprised by this. If you do have any more information on how those people went about doing that I'd appreciate you sending it to me (PM if you prefer). I was expressly told by numerous people in the field that you point blank cannot get licensed without either an appropriate degree, or the clinical respec. If that was wrong I'm actually kind of irritated since one of the big factors in my choosing clinical over I/O was that you can still do consulting with a clinical PhD (albeit the focus would probably be different) but was under the impression you could never do clinical work if you went for I/O.

 

[PhDshallsee]

I live in Virginia, and know an I/O psych who works with my cousin's company. She is a licensed psychologist in the state--specifically, the psych board has licensed her as an "applied psychologist" I believe. Along with school, clinical, and counseling, they are the only four doctorate levels in psychology that are licensed in this state.

 

[allstressedout]

what's the difference between getting a phd in i/o psych and one in Org behavior in a business program? is one easier in terms of admissions and is one "better" than the other?

 

[IOPsych]

This is just what I have heard but I believe that a PhD in I/O is more versatile and more coveted in companies right now, because you are trained in a wider range of subjects; such as the I side- personnel selection, assessment, etc. and the O side- leadership, motivation, etc. Org programs appear to all be slowly switching over to I/O programs, like SLU for example(traditional Org program). Org appears to be a little "old school", although that is not intended as a put down. From what I have seen most Org programs are trying to balance it out to become more competitive with students. Most people who want specific Org training are going to business schools nowadays and getting PhDs in Org development and similar areas.
Sidenote- I do not claim to know everything this is just the information I have picked up from applying to I/O programs this year. The info was picked up from PhDs in both applied and academic settings and information found on the web. hope this helps.

Edit should have read your post a little better, did not notice you were referring to business programs for Org. already. ,I believe I/O PhDs are more trained in statistics and research. Although they are similar areas Psychology is still different than business. Psychologists search more for the why, whereas business people just want to know what is the best, not why it is the best. So there is a different emphasis on learning (this is what I was told by my Prof, (I/O Psychologist in a business school).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It's simply a credibility issue...more degrees = more perceived expertness and hence, credibility. At the companies and depts I've worked, a masters degree in anything is pretty much standard baseline degree to get those jobs. I was the only person in my dept without an org psych degree or mba, i think 5 had phds, 2 masters. So there were also people with PhDs working in staff/manager level jobs. The masters level org. psych programs have flooded the market with mid level professionals (at least in NYC) and hence, a masters in org pysch really isn't as rare or marketable as it once was, while a PhD always has cache and more perceived expertness.

I completely agree with this. Before changing careers, I was in management at a very successful firm, and I was the only person at my level without an advanced degree (mostly MBA's and MIS's). The only reason I got the job was because I came highly recommended (they found me).

All of the C-level people had PhD's / JD's, and definitely earned the credibility. I actually was in the process of applying to joint MBA/MIS's when I decided to jump ship. I think MS's in I/O are sufficient for people who want to do get in and get out and get paid, but if you want to be in the elite, you should go the PhD route.

-t

 

[Cayetana]

Since my dream was always to be a psychologist who could conduct therapy, I was really worried that if I went the I/O route I would lose that opportunity. The thing is, I don't want to be just a therapist, in other words, seeing one client after next in therapy isn't what I want to do for the rest of my life. I do want to do other things, but I don't want to lose that opportunity to do therapy.

Now, if there is a possibility to get licensed as a therapist with an I/O PhD, that would be great! And I do have an MA in Counseling Psychology so I have had counseling classes, including substance abuse classes and assessment courses (intelligence and personality testing). With my MBA everyone tells me to go into I/O because it pays better. I think I would like the work, BUT like I said, I don't want to give up the right to ever conduct therapy. I would even be OK working for a firm and doing some of the actual counseling myself, especially in an EAP (employee assistance program) type thing.

I will definitely look more into the options to become licensed. Thank you!