Proton beam

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hypersomniac_

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I was reading a couple rad onc papers the other day and one of them mentioned that "it is anticipated that proton beam will eventually replace linear accelerators completely". Is this actually a widely held view, that the only thing holding proton beam back from replacing linacs is the enormous facility cost? What are the current views on where proton is going to end up?
 
id put that along with the notion of "isn't rad onc a dying field"
 
might be analogous to saying that MRI will replace CT for all emergency brain injury scans...its a legitimate notion, but probably not gonna happen
 
protons can do things that photons can't its just that its not always necessary or best to use that technology.
 
As one of my professors puts it, protons are "expensive, extensive, and labor intensive." Doing IMRT for everyone wouldn't be right and neither would giving everyone protons.

But they certainly have their place and I think we'll see a surge of facilities, both public and private, in the next decade.
 
protons have their role but wont replace photons in the near future. wait for the long term neutron scatter/2nd malignancy data too.
 
unless the secondary malignancy rate with protons is just absurd, its going to be another 20+years until that data comes out...in the form of a meta-analysis.

protons will have its role in the field of radiation oncology, something we can hang our hat upon. it should be great for kids, tumors in difficult locations (cns, thoracic, abdominal), and in those tumors where dose-escalation will be needed (lung, pancreas).

local control does affect survival (EBCTSG)...if we can improve local control by dose-escalation using protons, we may do some benefit.
 
actually the initial projects are underway. i just had a nice sushi dinner with someone and we talked about the project.

Its a difficult project to do but very much worth the investigation given the potential proliferation of the device and the tendency there will be for people to use it because they can, for prestigue and to woo patients, and for billing.

as for local control benefiting survival (sometimes it does)- all the more reason to be careful of out of feild 2nd malignancies.
unless the secondary malignancy rate with protons is just absurd, its going to be another 20+years until that data comes out...in the form of a meta-analysis.

protons will have its role in the field of radiation oncology, something we can hang our hat upon. it should be great for kids, tumors in difficult locations (cns, thoracic, abdominal), and in those tumors where dose-escalation will be needed (lung, pancreas).

local control does affect survival (EBCTSG)...if we can improve local control by dose-escalation using protons, we may do some benefit.
 
"actually the initial projects are underway. i just had a nice sushi dinner with someone and we talked about the project."

This is indeed true. You might see my name on at least one of them. 🙂
 
I just got a position to do research on the proton accelerator at Loma Linda this summer. Anyone have any tips or points of interest at this particular facility? Have any of you been to the proton facility at Loma Linda?
 
"actually the initial projects are underway. i just had a nice sushi dinner with someone and we talked about the project."

This is indeed true. You might see my name on at least one of them. 🙂

i hope so; its an important project. good luck.
 
actually the woman who is wokring in the project really has a great data base.
 
might be analogous to saying that MRI will replace CT for all emergency brain injury scans...its a legitimate notion, but probably not gonna happen

Protons do have a utility. Pediatric intracranial would be a leading site for use. But don't forget that second malignancies and neutron contamination in this population would be even more devastating and all the more reason to be wary about how we use protons. However, did I mention that protons are currently a cash cow? So new proton facilities springing up, some costing in excess of $100+ million, will be using protons to treat everything for which they can bill. Treating prostate cancer with protons just does NOT make any sense unless an institution is attempting to cash in on a $100+ million investment. What is more conformal than brachytherapy in the prostate? Does the perfect proton treatment plan really conform to the prostate as the prostate moves during treatment with normal organ motion? People, this is important. Doctors are increasingly losing control of health care, because we are giving that control away. Some doctors/institutions have been very bad stewards of the limited resources which are health care dollars. If we continue to use protons to treat prostate cancer or anything else that we can bill for, when other proven and more conventional therapies work very well, we will once again have more control of health care taken away from us and lose even more trust from the public.

The true indications for proton therapy could easily be treated at one dedicated center in the U.S., but now every hospital wants one. Why? Did I mention that protons are a cash cow?
 
try to perscribe what's medically best for your patient, not what reimburses the most. One pleasure of academic radonc is it frees me from these concerns. The higher ups however do have to worry about business models etc.

Its incorrect in my view to say that the "true" indications for protons could be treated at one center.
 
try to perscribe what's medically best for your patient, not what reimburses the most. One pleasure of academic radonc is it frees me from these concerns. The higher ups however do have to worry about business models etc.

Its incorrect in my view to say that the "true" indications for protons could be treated at one center.


Yes, all patients with clinically indicated requirements for proton therapy could absolutely be treated at one dedicated proton facility. If just MD Anderson's total treatment volume alone was dedicated to proton therapy (no reason to do this) all true indications for protons could easily be treated at one dedicated center - and they would not be that busy. Think about...how many people NEED (will benefit from) protons versus other already tested and proven effective modalities? As stewards of healthcare dollars, those of us in academics should realize that using protons when the benefit would be marginal at best, if existent all, will allow our apathy and recklessness to come back to haunt us. However, academic institutions are building them because they are cash cows!

I am as guilty of this as anyone. It is very careless to say that those of us in academic rad onc can enjoy freedom from the concerns of how health care dollars are used - that is for the higher ups. That philosophy is the permissive cause of our problems. Those of us in academic rad onc, and academic health care in general, should play a leading role in beating the ground about how healthcare dollars are used. We dictate the model by which institutions function, and how other hospitals then follow. It is completely unacceptable to let hundreds of millions and future billions of health dollars go into building proton centers because they are now fashionable and profitable to institutions. Furthermore, then to just sit back and say "Well I'm in academics, I don't need to worry about that...," is our collective inability to recognize from where the problem stems. If we want to let more control of healthcare be taken away from physicians, academic institutions, and hospitals, do exactly what we have been doing and do little more than complain about the new financially driven proton facilities popping up where?...in academic radiation oncology.
 
At the same time, it is the academic centers that will need to perform the clinical research to figure out the other indications for proton therapy (or tomo or CK or whatever). If there are just the the few indications (base of skull tumors, peds, few other things), the insurance companies aren't going to pay extra for proton therapy for prostate cancer, just b/c the investment was made. The cash cow will have to be slaughtered and grilled and served at barbecues.

If there are more indications found, even though it is costly, patients may be better off. It's a high-stakes bet, and I'm glad people are willing to make it. I agree that the clinical benefits will be marginal, but I disagree that these centers are going to benefit financially in the long run. As soon as there is high level evidence saying there is no benefit with a more expensive modality, the insurer stops covering it (i.e. what will likely be the case for the folks treating early stage larynx with IMRT). The only people that will be able to afford it will be private-pay patients, and the competition for them will be fierce.

-S
 
I don't mean to be cynical, but $100+ million dollars that it costs to build a single proton center is more than the yearly NIH budget for several entire, widespread diseases combined.

At the same time, it is the academic centers that will need to perform the clinical research to figure out the other indications for proton therapy (or tomo or CK or whatever). If there are just the the few indications (base of skull tumors, peds, few other things), the insurance companies aren't going to pay extra for proton therapy for prostate cancer, just b/c the investment was made. The cash cow will have to be slaughtered and grilled and served at barbecues.

If there are more indications found, even though it is costly, patients may be better off. It's a high-stakes bet, and I'm glad people are willing to make it. I agree that the clinical benefits will be marginal, but I disagree that these centers are going to benefit financially in the long run. As soon as there is high level evidence saying there is no benefit with a more expensive modality, the insurer stops covering it (i.e. what will likely be the case for the folks treating early stage larynx with IMRT). The only people that will be able to afford it will be private-pay patients, and the competition for them will be fierce.

-S
 
how many proton facilities are there in America? not many. how many more are set to open this decade other than at UPenn?
 
As soon as there is high level evidence saying there is no benefit with a more expensive modality . . .

I am somewhat skeptical if such studies will ever be published. In any case, I feel that any comparison between protons and photons will be limited to Class IV or III evidence.

As others have stated, it is a tremendous financial investment on the part of an institution to build a proton facility. Risking such an investment with Class I evidence demonstrating marginal or (the humanity!) no advantage to protons is not conducive to their financial well-being.
 
As soon as there is high level evidence saying there is no benefit with a more expensive modality, the insurer stops covering it (i.e. what will likely be the case for the folks treating early stage larynx with IMRT). The only people that will be able to afford it will be private-pay patients, and the competition for them will be fierce.

-S

I was under the impression IMRT for larynx isnt covered at all?
 
I am somewhat skeptical if such studies will ever be published. In any case, I feel that any comparison between protons and photons will be limited to Class IV or III evidence.

As others have stated, it is a tremendous financial investment on the part of an institution to build a proton facility. Risking such an investment with Class I evidence demonstrating marginal or (the humanity!) no advantage to protons is not conducive to their financial well-being.


You know it! And for institutions that will be one trick ponies, and their only trick is proton therapy, you better believe that no studies are coming out anytime soon that will soon show the marginal or (the humanity!) no benefit to protons. Don't expect any five year analysis showing the strikingly marginal benefit of protons. Expect not to see any such studies until the $100 million investment is at least covered and a profit has been turned. If we are lucky subjective analysis of patient self-reported symptoms is the best for which we can hope.

Initial Game Plan for the one trick ponies with the newly acquired one trick: 1. Have as long of a treatment day as possible at the proton center. 2. Treat as many days of the week as possible at the proton center. 3. Treat as many disease sites (indication or not) the institution can bill for at the proton center. 4. Make as much $ in a 5-7 year window as possible at the proton center. 5. Then after the $$$ have rolled in, and a "sufficient database has been accumulated", begin to publish the studies that show only a marginal benefit to protons for most of the disease sites they were treating. 6. Spin the analysis and justification of the huge healthcare $ investment in a manner that allows the institution to retain some shred of its previous academic credibility.
 
You know it! And for institutions that will be one trick ponies, and their only trick is proton therapy, you better believe that no studies are coming out anytime soon that will soon show the marginal or (the humanity!) no benefit to protons. Don't expect any five year analysis showing the strikingly marginal benefit of protons. Expect not to see any such studies until the $100 million investment is at least covered and a profit has been turned. If we are lucky subjective analysis of patient self-reported symptoms is the best for which we can hope.

Initial Game Plan for the one trick ponies with the newly acquired one trick: 1. Have as long of a treatment day as possible at the proton center. 2. Treat as many days of the week as possible at the proton center. 3. Treat as many disease sites (indication or not) the institution can bill for at the proton center. 4. Make as much $ in a 5-7 year window as possible at the proton center. 5. Then after the $$$ have rolled in, and a "sufficient database has been accumulated", begin to publish the studies that show only a marginal benefit to protons for most of the disease sites they were treating. 6. Spin the analysis and justification of the huge healthcare $ investment in a manner that allows the institution to retain some shred of its previous academic credibility.


I've been silent too long.

It is so frustrating and disappointing that even a community as small as ours cannot take steps to ensure that we prevent something which is so obviously wrong. The next ASTRO there needs to an open forum on this situation that directly addresses some of the ugliness that we are discussing here and have been ignoring (from the standpoint of action) far too long. I hope we all understand this, but the consequences of ignoring this issue will impact us all dramatically in the very near future.
 
I am somewhat skeptical if such studies will ever be published. In any case, I feel that any comparison between protons and photons will be limited to Class IV or III evidence.

As others have stated, it is a tremendous financial investment on the part of an institution to build a proton facility. Risking such an investment with Class I evidence demonstrating marginal or (the humanity!) no advantage to protons is not conducive to their financial well-being.

The thing is I don't know how to fix the problem...as long as so much $$$ is involved.
 
how many proton facilities are there in America? not many. how many more are set to open this decade other than at UPenn?

Currently Operating That I Know Of:
Loma Linda (1990)
Harvard (2001)
UC Davis/LLNL
Florida (2006)
MDAnderson (2006)
Indiana

International
Orsay/France
Paul Scherrer Institute/Switzerland
Rinecker/Munich
National Cancer Center of Korea
Japan

To Be Built:
UPenn ($140 million)
Hampton University ($189 million)
Northern Illinois University/FermiLab (not yet approved)
Procure/Oklahoma City ($95 million)
Washington Cancer Care ($100 million)

They Want It:
UCSF
others?
 
Currently Operating:
Loma Linda (1990)
Harvard (2001)
UC Davis/LLNL
Florida (2006)
MDAnderson (2006)
Indiana

International
Orsay/France
Paul Scherrer Institute/Switzerland
Rinecker/Munich
National Cancer Center of Korea

To Be Built:
UPenn ($140 million)
Hampton University ($189 million)
Northern Illinois University/FermiLab (not yet approved)
Procure/Oklahoma City ($95 million)
Washington Cancer Care ($100 million)

They Want It:
UCSF
others?

good info....is there enough demand for a proton facility in OKC???
 
wash u
umdnj
tufts
all bought single gantry proton units
 
I've been silent too long.

It is so frustrating and disappointing that even a community as small as ours cannot take steps to ensure that we prevent something which is so obviously wrong. The next ASTRO there needs to an open forum on this situation that directly addresses some of the ugliness that we are discussing here and have been ignoring (from the standpoint of action) far too long. I hope we all understand this, but the consequences of ignoring this issue will impact us all dramatically in the very near future.

its being done already...


http://www.astro.org/HealthPolicy/NewTechnology/

New Technology
Home › Health Policy › New Technology

Information that can be found on the New Technology portion of the Web site is in reference to ASTRO's Emerging Technology Committee. This committee interacts with government entities, vendors, etc., as a clearinghouse for emerging technologies in the field of radiation oncology. They develop technology assessments to educate the membership and other groups.

Further information on this topic and the committee's actions will be posted soon. Thank you for your patience.
 
There is a lot of interest in proton therapy. ASTRO featured it in the last two annual conventions. It was in the last ACCC convention and will be in the upcoming AAPM meeting.



THERE IS NO ADVANTAGE GIVING MORE RADIATION TO NORMAL TISSUE

The goal of any therapy is to improve the therapeutic ratio, increase the tumor control, and decrease to side effects. There is no cancer cell that can’t be killed with enough radiation but the radiation dose to the normal tissue prevents this. This is no different that chemotherapy, the side effects (normal tissue toxicity) limits the chemo dose and effectiveness (less that optimal chemo dose to the tumor).

By simply changing the x-ray beam with a proton beam, the entrance dose (dose to the normal tissue from the skin to target/tumor) is ½ and exit dose (dose to normal tissue from the target/tumor as it exits the opposite side of the body) is 0 for deep seated tumors. Thus, the normal tissue dose is simply reduced by 50 to 70%. There is nothing in medicine with this type of therapeutic ratio improvement by simply replacing technology.

Remember protons stop, x-ray keeps going thru and exits the body.


IMRT WAS ACCEPTED WITHOUT CLINICAL RESULTS, SO SHOULD PROTONS

IMRT was accepted by, patients, radiation oncologist, CPT and Medicare based on the improved dose distribution without 5 or 10 year clinical outcome papers. In fact, all improvement of technology was accepted without randomized studies. We did not have phase III studies comparing super voltage vs. cobalt, cobalt vs. linac, linac vs. 3D conformal, 3D conformal to IMRT. Improvements in reducing normal tissue dose are historically accepted (except by those who don’t have the new technology).


PROTON THERAPY AND ALL RADIATION THERAPY CAN BE AND IS COST EFFECTIVE

For those who say proton is a “cash cow”, welcome to the fact any well run radiation oncology center is a “cash cow”. Why do you think Medical Oncology and Surgical Oncology wants the linacs it in a “cancer center” that they control the revenue stream? There are proton centers that are not “cash cows”, Indiana University treats only 10 to 20 patients a day, Mass General have been opened for 6 years and treat only 40 patients a day in 3 treatment rooms. The same arguments are going on with cardiac and orthopedic centers, why pick on guys and gals in the basement.

ASTRO letter to New York Times, December 8, 2006:
“It must be noted that while radiation therapy may be costly, it is also cost-effective. To put it into perspective, the total amount Medicare Part B paid for all professional and technical radiation oncology services in 2005 – including IMRT was all other forms of radiation therapy delivered for cancer treatment - was $1.4 billion. This was less than the $1.5 billion Medicare paid for a single drug, Procrit, which is used to relieve symptoms of anemia cased by cancer and its treatment, but does not contribute to its cure.”


DON’T LET OTHERS DIVIDED AND CONQUER RADIATION ONCOLOGIST

1) Academic centers won’t treat a lot of patients. For example MGH has 3 treatment rooms and treat only 200-400 patients per years. I expect most academic centers will be in this range. (However, Loma Linda is an exception to most academic centers. They developed a patient friendly and efficient process resulting patient volume of 1200-1500 patients per year over the last 5 years. They have 4 proton treatment rooms and 3 linac rooms. They have a high patient satisfaction as noted in a web site started by former patient of Loma Linda, now with over 2500 members who were treated at Loma Linda www.protonbob.com.

2) It takes a long time to start treating patients. The previous facilities had a long and complex road to get past all the turf battles and medical center roadblocks to actually build one. Most of the medical centers that have built or are building proton center have taken 5 or more years to get to ground breaking. Then it takes 3 years to build it. So I wouldn't worry about one in your neighborhood for a decade. There are ways to shorten the 5+ year process to a 1-2 years, but most medical centers love their dysfunctional process.

3) Proton therapy will create more patients for all radiation oncologists. This will raise radiation therapy awareness to the public and create more referrals and self referrals to radiation oncologists. Then we will recommend what best of the patient, no matter what the technology. We don’t give IMRT to patients who ask for it, just those who will benefit from it.

4) Proton therapy increases linac volume. If you build a proton center, you need to expand your linac capability. Most proton therapy treatments are given as boost. For example, the prostate cancer dose escalation, randomize trial published in JAMA 2005 by MGH/Loma Linda used mostly conformal x-ray. A linac gave 50.4 Gy (28 tx) then boost with proton either with 19.8 Gy (11 tx-for total of 70.2 Gy) vs. 28.8 (19 tx for total of 79.2 Gy). The linac volume at both facilities increased considerably. I think MDACC has the same idea since they installed 13 new linacs at the same time they were building a 4 room proton therapy center.



PROTON THERAPY IMPROVE AWARENESS OF RADIATION ONCOLOGY OPTION
Thus, proton therapy could be a boom to all radiation oncology. IMRT gave a nice awareness and boost to radiation oncology, even though most get non-IMRT therapy. This drew interest from those considering surgery as the primary option. Proton therapy can’t possibly treat everyone, but it is one way to will get patients thinking of radiation therapy as an option.

We should focus on the well being of the patient, and they need to know about the radiation therapy, the organ preserving option. Protons will help elevate all of radiation therapy, more dramatically than IMRT.


http://www.proton-therapy.org/index.html

http://www.llu.edu/proton/

http://www.mdanderson.org/care_centers/radiationonco/ptc/

🙂
 
Speaking as a non-radiation oncologist, I find some of the writing here above as borderline offensive.

Where in the world is the cost-benefit analysis?

Does not having any evidence-based trials in the past give us a blank check to pursue whatever therapy that rationally can improve outcomes, especially at this cost? Why not pursue trials with the centers already present without gambling billions on building further facilities?

How exactly would protons significantly improve survival (not morbidity)?

Worst of all, why should we spend $100 million+ for every academic center in the country to obtain proton facilities, so that RadOnc folks can increase their own patient volume, and so that RadOnc folks can pursue their own turf battles with other subspecialties? This analysis has it totally backwards - people should come to RadOnc because there's a benefit shown to therapy - not because somehow someone's hiding the benefits (of which none has been shown for protons except in ocular disease, of course). I frankly could care less if your patient volume is squeezed if in the zero-sum funding game of cancer treatment, money for proven therapy or facilities is siphoned by a high-risk boondoggle.
 
well higher dose may ablate tumors and cure (suggestive in several cancers but too soon to say as its emerging as a area of investigation); also as systemic therapy gets batter, better local control may also help. we dont know the answers yet to these things.

however doctor and geek, i think youre missing the big picture with your objections; the reality- in wwhat ever field youre going into as well as ours, is that money plays a role. its problematic when it interfers with good medicine and that line can get very blurry. also i think youre jumping into this arguement without knowing some of the issues with radoc; the "turf" stuff as you put it is very complex in radonc. for instance people not trained in the field (surgeons, neurosurgeons) wanting to take the reigns in radiosurgery because of political might and historial issues; and urologists doing IMRT. its a historical problem of radonc letting itself be used as a tech service rather than as professional oncologists. and its bad ofr the patient.


Sometimes users (here and all these forums) get to talking about the monitary issues as a matter of reality, without a moral thumbs up. and also, dont underestimate medical students to pontificate virtually anything they've heard about. ive seen it all over this and other med related web sites.

which leads me to this; please dont jump in moralizing over a whole field particularly with out the subtext. that's just as insulting as what your objecting to.
 
I'm sorry, but as a consumer of healthcare, I fail to see how or why turf issues should have involvement in whether or not first providing at least good evidence of efficacy in improving morbidity and mortality, including statistical significance. Why not have such evidence on hand to show the public that a therapy works rather than relying on trust or salesmanship? Money issues between specialties or turf wars become irrelevant if you can show your therapy actually helps.

The issue for me is that it seems to me that the consensus of commenters above that having such studies done now would present too great a financial risk to those building these proton centers right now - so therefore facilities will continue to be built on the blind faith that when studies do actually come out that the investment will actually be worth it. Protons are an order of magitude more costly than even the latest equipment available, so the stakes are that much higher.

Here's a simple question - why doesn't someone who actually knows the turf wars and knows the money issues tell us why, instead of proving that protons work in controlled trials, that we should acquiese to building more proton centers? And I'm not talking about from a specialty-centered perspective. If you have problems with me "moralizing" over a field which I don't have any experience in, then let someone who does tell us, I'm all for being convinced otherwise. Besides, we're all patients and payors for healthcare, and I think that we deserve a response.
 
Well it is not quite so black and white. For one thing, protons have been proven to be dosimetrically superior to photons with certain tumor geometries. Also, broadly speaking protons, as heavier particles, are intrinsically superior to photons in cases where organs at risk are near the PTV (planning target volume).

M&M in radiation oncology are somewhat more difficult to prove than with medical oncology. For one thing side effects and long-term local control are, in general, on a longer time scale than with chemotherapy. In some cases, the tumors treated are so malignant that patients don't live long enough to see certain side effects. For instance, in GBMs we are now seeing patients living longer with newer, experimental therapies and are now better able to appreciate longer term radiation damage to the CNS.

But I digress . . .

There is a proven theoretical advantage to protons over photons in many scenarios. For these cases, I believe the use of protons are warranted. In some cases, smaller centers who build proton facilities are forced to treat all of their patients to recoup their investment. This is a morally questionable practice, no doubt. However, technology may allow protons to produced at a far cheaper cost than with the city-block size cyclotrons currently being constructed.

Finally, the reality of American healthcare is this -- patients want the absolute best therapy regardless of cost. If you had a intracranial tumor near your brainstem and were told that protons provided a theoretical advantage to photons, wouldn't you choose the former? Dosimetery is another aspect of RadOnc that gives support for a therapy -- MedOnc doesn't have an equivalent modeling system. Chemotherapy is tested in animals first, of course, but the efficacy of such studies do not obviate the necessity of clinical trials.

Bottom line,
1. By dosimetery protons provide better dose distribution
2. Demand for the best health care in the US regardless of cost
3. Financial renumeration (of course)

I'm not saying it is right, but these are some of the justifications that are used.
 
youre approaching this from such an emotional standpoint and as i interpret your post, mixing the issues. it is also simplistic (if morally satisfying) to say that fiscal concerns or issues of balliwick are "irrelevant" if you can show your therapy helps.

You also dont have an understanding of role protons in therapy thus far and therefore realize why our knowledge is limited with regard to long term outcome (therapies have changed so the benefit of higher dose and better local control is of yet undeterminied; with a limited resource (such as protons) there is too much of a selection bias to make good large rct about the issues etc etc)

as for your "deserving" a response; these are important fundemental issues all right however they are complex ones. Thus they deserve to be less of a challange to an argument rather than an invitation for discussion or enlightenment. as for me, I dont have the time to invest to do justice to such a review.

if its an important issue to you, I encourage you to do the research. Perhaps others here will be happy to offer what they can. Perhaps such a discussion might be able to begin with the good faith assumption that we as doctors do give a damn about patients and wish to put them above other concerns. This might be the best avenue of approach for anyone interested in exploring the interplay between healthcare, physician roles in a multi-disciplinary world and fiscal concerns.


I'm sorry, but as a consumer of healthcare, I fail to see how or why turf issues should have involvement in whether or not first providing at least good evidence of efficacy in improving morbidity and mortality, including statistical significance. Why not have such evidence on hand to show the public that a therapy works rather than relying on trust or salesmanship? Money issues between specialties or turf wars become irrelevant if you can show your therapy actually helps.

The issue for me is that it seems to me that the consensus of commenters above that having such studies done now would present too great a financial risk to those building these proton centers right now - so therefore facilities will continue to be built on the blind faith that when studies do actually come out that the investment will actually be worth it. Protons are an order of magitude more costly than even the latest equipment available, so the stakes are that much higher.

Here's a simple question - why doesn't someone who actually knows the turf wars and knows the money issues tell us why, instead of proving that protons work in controlled trials, that we should acquiese to building more proton centers? And I'm not talking about from a specialty-centered perspective. If you have problems with me "moralizing" over a field which I don't have any experience in, then let someone who does tell us, I'm all for being convinced otherwise. Besides, we're all patients and payors for healthcare, and I think that we deserve a response.
 
youre approaching this from such an emotional standpoint and as i interpret your post, mixing the issues. it is also simplistic (if morally satisfying) to say that fiscal concerns or issues of balliwick are "irrelevant" if you can show your therapy helps.
Actually, for the beancounters in Congress, fiscal concerns are quite high on the list (dangerously high, given that many want to shortchange health for cost).

And I submit that you should point out the emotional input in my analysis. You simply cannot be dismissive to my argument by nebulously arguing that I'm mixing emotion with policymaking. It's clear that having evidence to support use of therapy X is better versus theoretical justifications. It's also reasonably clear that if one knows therapy X is better than therapy Y, or that therapy X+Y is better than Y alone, then therapy X will become part of the standard of care. However, at least some RadOnc folks believe that the root cause of turf battles isn't the lack of data - it's advertising or perceived institutional conflicts. I submit that without the data, you simply can't win, unless you want to advertise your way to success. It's that point which I find problematic.

You also dont have an understanding of role protons in therapy thus far and therefore realize why our knowledge is limited with regard to long term outcome (therapies have changed so the benefit of higher dose and better local control is of yet undeterminied; with a limited resource (such as protons) there is too much of a selection bias to make good large rct about the issues etc etc).
Well, join the party. MedOnc and SurgOnc are having plenty of the same issues with long-term outcomes and limited resource of either personnel or drug available - selection biases especially with SurgOnc. The key difference is that it's an incredible financial risk to take for chairs throughout the country to beg and obtain $100 million from donors or the state, and for this to be repeated multiple times for each academic center. Is it unfair for a specialty that relies so heavily on equipment for therapy? Maybe so. But like I said above, I could find less risky ways as an institution to spend $100 million, cure more cancers in other patients, and send my pediatric patients to proton centers that already exist, as already suggested above.

as for your "deserving" a response; these are important fundemental issues all right however they are complex ones. Thus they deserve to be less of a challange to an argument rather than an invitation for discussion or enlightenment. as for me, I dont have the time to invest to do justice to such a review.
I'm only speaking from the perspective of a policymaker, which I certainly am not. But I can only imagine that the beancounters will be asking the same questions as I am, and that someone's got to convince John Q. Public that what you're doing is good. Good intentions and theoretical justifications, I submit, are not enough.

If its an important issue to you, I encourage you to do the research. Perhaps others here will be happy to offer what they can. Perhaps such a discussion might be able to begin with the good faith assumption that we as doctors do give a damn about patients and wish to put them above other concerns. This might be the best avenue of approach for anyone interested in exploring the interplay between healthcare, physician roles in a multi-disciplinary world and fiscal concerns.

Sure thing, I'd like to do the retrospective and prospective studies, but I'm not a radiation oncologist! 🙂

A recent meta-analysis was published in JCO this year:
http://jco.ascopubs.org/cgi/reprint/25/8/965

I'm not qualified to evaluate the soundness of the analysis or the biases of authors of the paper, but what I can do is quote from the conclusion:
Proton and other particle therapies need to be explored as potentially more effective and less toxic RT techniques. A passionate belief in the superiority of particle therapy and commercially driven acquisition and running of proton centers provide little confidence that appropriate information will become available. Objective outcome data from prospective studies is only likely to come from fully supported academic activity away from commercial influence. An uncontrolled expansion of clinical units offering as yet unproven and expensive proton therapy is unlikely to advance the field of radiation oncology or be of benefit to cancer patients.

Other reviews of interest:

- doi:10.1016/j.radonc.2007.03.001 (another metanalysis from an Oslo group)
- http://ej.iop.org/links/rfHYJROL0/4pSD_DQP3BGZCkDMav5vpA/pmb6_13_r26.pdf (Alfred Smith, formerly of Joint Center, now at MDAnderson)
- Point/Counterpoint in recent Medical Physics (I don't have a subscription)

Finally, I don't mean to impugn on the reputation of the field as a whole - only I find the analysis written in Courier font above as problematic as to the implication that in this debate, we should "NOT LET OTHERS DIVIDE AND CONQUER" your field, which frankly should not even come to mind when deciding whether or not building more proton centers is a good or a bad thing, or more importantly in the decision calculus of patients considering radiation of any kind for their treatment. I understand this is quite a controversial topic in the field, but I speak only as an observer and healthcare consumer.
 
Well it is not quite so black and white. For one thing, protons have been proven to be dosimetrically superior to photons with certain tumor geometries. Also, broadly speaking protons, as heavier particles, are intrinsically superior to photons in cases where organs at risk are near the PTV (planning target volume).

M&M in radiation oncology are somewhat more difficult to prove than with medical oncology. For one thing side effects and long-term local control are, in general, on a longer time scale than with chemotherapy. In some cases, the tumors treated are so malignant that patients don't live long enough to see certain side effects. For instance, in GBMs we are now seeing patients living longer with newer, experimental therapies and are now better able to appreciate longer term radiation damage to the CNS.

There is a proven theoretical advantage to protons over photons in many scenarios. For these cases, I believe the use of protons are warranted. In some cases, smaller centers who build proton facilities are forced to treat all of their patients to recoup their investment. This is a morally questionable practice, no doubt. However, technology may allow protons to produced at a far cheaper cost than with the city-block size cyclotrons currently being constructed.
On this issue, I'm exploring the relevant material in between experiments here 😀

Poking around I saw that Livermore's working on a machine that can produce protons for about $3 million, certainly an investment worth making even with limited evidence.

Finally, the reality of American healthcare is this -- patients want the absolute best therapy regardless of cost. If you had a intracranial tumor near your brainstem and were told that protons provided a theoretical advantage to photons, wouldn't you choose the former? Dosimetery is another aspect of RadOnc that gives support for a therapy -- MedOnc doesn't have an equivalent modeling system. Chemotherapy is tested in animals first, of course, but the efficacy of such studies do not obviate the necessity of clinical trials.
There's got to be some stopping point. I could spend $1 billion to extend 1 life for 1 month, but that certainly wouldn't be acceptable to the policymaker, the insurer, or the taxpayer, and all but the most rare of patients. $1 billion for 10 proton centers that could extend collectively 1000 lives for 1 month (and arguably much less with referral to already existing centers) would at least give me pause, especially given the lack of evidence with showing efficacy. Others may say otherwise, and on that point, we just have to agree to disagree.
 
PROTON THERAPY AND ALL RADIATION THERAPY CAN BE AND IS COST EFFECTIVE

For those who say proton is a "cash cow", welcome to the fact any well run radiation oncology center is a "cash cow". Why do you think Medical Oncology and Surgical Oncology wants the linacs it in a "cancer center" that they control the revenue stream? There are proton centers that are not "cash cows", Indiana University treats only 10 to 20 patients a day, Mass General have been opened for 6 years and treat only 40 patients a day in 3 treatment rooms. The same arguments are going on with cardiac and orthopedic centers, why pick on guys and gals in the basement.


🙂


If only the passion driving the discussions here lead to meaningful action at the next ASTRO meeting, something truly amazing would happen…a disaster would be prevented and not just retroactively patched-up.

Health care dollars matter! They matter a lot. Has anyone practiced in a hospital or clinic where resources were sometimes the limiting clinical decision maker? We all have. Patients dieing of a stroke while an inpatient because "usual" staff numbers and OR slots were not enough to get the patient into surgery on time…patients waiting in the unending line of an urban ER, and the patient goes home because they are exhausted from waiting, and they come back the next day in an ambulance in asystole…and the list goes on and on…

We are casually talking about spending $141 million at a single institution for something that might have a marginal benefit. And we rationalize by saying to ourselves "Well, it's probably not going to hurt anyone." Careless use of healthcare dollars kills human beings. And it kills human beings in the United States every single day.

Yes, proton centers that give clinically indicated treatments to patients that will benefit meaningfully from protons are NOT cash cows. However, a $141 million investment at a single University demands a BUSINESS MODEL that will allow for the investment not to destroy the hospital. As others have mentioned, this business model is about treating as many patients as possible in a 5 year window regardless of clinical needs. The difference between the initiations of IMRT versus Proton, is that IMRT trials and studies were not clouded by a $141 million dollar investment at a single University that now will have physicians, staff, and residents functioning under the heavy pressure of a BUSINESS MODEL that has nothing to do with patient care.

Careless use of healthcare dollars kills human beings. And it kills human beings in the United States every single day.
 
this is obviously turning into a fairly charged discussion, but I wanted to thank all the participants who are both inside and outside the field for their valuable input.

i wanted to reiterate a point that was made earlier. Research in radiation oncology is quite distinct vs other fields in that effects of a particular radiation treatment can be predicted even before the treatment is administered. Our advanced technology can predict how much dose tumor and normal tissue will receive (i.e., dosimetry). Although the accuracy of using dosimetry to predict tumor effect may be challenging since tumors are so heterogeneous (hence the importance of clinical trials), the accuracy of using dosimetry to predict normal tissue reactions (from my understanding) is fairly good.

Protons have dosimetrically been showed to be better at sparing normal tissues in certain tumors where normal tissue frequently abuts tumor. For instance, in prostate cancer, probably the most significant side effect of RT relates to rectal sequelae. In fact, one could argue that if these rectal effects could be avoided, RT would be a superior treatment to RP. Protons (unlike IMRT) offer that ability.

Now, an important ethical/moral question of clinical trial design arises: if we can predict that treatment X will offer significantly fewer side effects vs treatment Y, is it ethical to compare treatment X vs treatment Y if we know that dosimetrically treatment X will have at least as much tumor control as treatment Y? this has been an argument I have heard from others in the field. I offer no personal opinion on it ... just leave it up for discussion.

However, this brings me to another important point: should be we base our health care decisions for whether treatment X should be used over treatment Y on tumor control or side effect profile. I would submit that both should be important considerations. Protons may or may not improve tumor control, but they will likely improve side effect profiles for RT of certain tumors.

Health care dollars are an important consideration. I, too, am disgusted by the amount of money expended on building these proton therapy institutions. However, since most of these facilities are being constructed at reputable and academically oriented institutions, I'm confident that these institutions will publish their retrospective/prospective results as more and more patients are treated. This will allow us then to better understand the appropriate uses of protons, especially by the time proton therapy machines with lower fixed costs are developed and more easily commercializable.

Please feel free to respond to these observations.
 
if these rectal effects could be avoided, RT would be a superior


The reason why supporters of the new University Proton center are trying to make the argument for rectal sparing is an attempt to justify the use of protons for prostate cancer!!!! This is crazy! Prostate cancer is slow growing, well treated my multiple modalities, and rectal sparing is well accomplished by multiple other less costly modalities including IMRT and brachytherapy. Why does the new University proton center need to justify the use of protons for prostate?? Because without treating prostate cancer (very prevalent) with protons, even though there is absolutely no clinical reason to due this, the business model at the new University Proton center will not be able to get enough patients on treatment to make the $$$$ 141 million they invested!! Sad, sad, sad…

Careless use of healthcare dollars kills human beings. And it kills human beings in the United States every single day.


To quote ZapOnc:

And for institutions that will be one trick ponies, and their only trick is proton therapy, you better believe that no studies are coming out anytime soon that will soon show the marginal or (the humanity!) no benefit to protons. Don't expect any five year analysis showing the strikingly marginal benefit of protons. Expect not to see any such studies until the $100 million investment is at least covered and a profit has been turned. If we are lucky subjective analysis of patient self-reported symptoms is the best for which we can hope.

Initial Game Plan for the one trick ponies with the newly acquired one trick: 1. Have as long of a treatment day as possible at the proton center. 2. Treat as many days of the week as possible at the proton center. 3. Treat as many disease sites (indication or not) the institution can bill for at the proton center. 4. Make as much $ in a 5-7 year window as possible at the proton center. 5. Then after the $$$ have rolled in, and a "sufficient database has been accumulated", begin to publish the studies that show only a marginal benefit to protons for most of the disease sites they were treating. 6. Spin the analysis and justification of the huge healthcare $ investment in a manner that allows the institution to retain some shred of its previous academic credibility.
 
Careless use of healthcare dollars kills human beings. And it kills human beings in the United States every single day.

Past resources that could have been allocated towards accepted standards of care, but research and progress are critical. I'm sitting here at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital right now and this got me thinking. What if all the money that St. Jude has received and used in its 40+ year existence had been allocated/donated to more worthwhile charities and research? After all, pediatric cancers are exceedingly rare. However, people and the government (mostly through NIH research grants) decided that research was important, even if this allocation did result in others receiving less money, which theoretically could have caused other 'worthy' patients to die. I don't know if this is a valid comparison, but so much money goes into biomedical research with the knowledge that a good portion of this investment will yield no new insights and discoveries. It's the nature of research.

However, I would suspect that its hard for radoncs to not lobby for proton facilities since it does seem to be a very promising modality in theory, that it is difficult to justify not building facilities so that academic rad oncs can perform research. Its not just radoncs wasting money, take a look at Herceptin, treatment exceeds $50k/pt while only being effective in less than 50% of patients overexpressing HER-2.
 
feel free to contiune this debate. please observe two general priniciples; the first is Keep it civil and professional. The second is please keep ON TOPIC. if this branches into tangents as debates are wont to do, it will be split. thank you.
 
A systematic literature review of the clinical and cost-effectiveness of hadron therapy in cancer.

* Lodge M,
* Pijls-Johannesma M,
* Stirk L,
* Munro AJ,
* De Ruysscher D,
* Jefferson T.

Cochrane Cancer Network, Oxford, UK.

Background: In view of the continued increase in the number of hadron (i.e. neutron, proton and light or heavy ion) therapy (HT) centres we performed a systematic literature review to identify reports of the efficacy of HT. Methods: Eleven databases were searched systematically. No limit was applied to language or study design. Established experts were contacted for unpublished data. Data on outcomes were extracted and summarised in tabular form. Results: Seven hundred and seventy three papers were identified. For proton and heavy ion therapy, the number of RCTs was too small to draw firm conclusions. Based on prospective and retrospective studies, proton irradiation emerges as the treatment of choice for some ocular and skull base tumours. For prostate cancer, the results were comparable with those from the best photon therapy series. Heavy ion therapy is still in an experimental phase. Conclusion: Existing data do not suggest that the rapid expansion of HT as a major treatment modality would be appropriate. Further research into the clinical and cost-effectiveness of HT is needed. The formation of a European Hadron Therapy Register would offer a straightforward way of accelerating the rate at which we obtain high-quality evidence that could be used in assessing the role of HT in the management of cancer.

PMID: 17502116
 
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