Protons are blowing Rad Onc's boat out the CMS water

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What hate proton people? Protons are more expensive than IMRT, but both are cheap compared to IO. Infighting doesn’t help any of us.
We are at the point now where we should just embrace it and run with it. Some might be afraid that they'll lose business at their linac but honestly even small hosp systems are considering a proton vault of their own. This is all we have...MR guided Linac treatment with on the fly replan (Great cant wait to squeeze out an extra 0.15wRVU for that) is for the birds. As long as the bosses buy into it and are willing to go ahead who are we to stop them? Indulge them! They keep us employed and quite frankly after all the BS I went through to get to this point...that is really all that matters to me staying employed.
 
We are at the point now where we should just embrace it and run with it. Some might be afraid that they'll lose business at their linac but honestly even small hosp systems are considering a proton vault of their own. This is all we have...MR guided Linac treatment with on the fly replan (Great cant wait to squeeze out an extra 0.15wRVU for that) is for the birds. As long as the bosses buy into it and are willing to go ahead who are we to stop them? Indulge them! They keep us employed and quite frankly after all the BS I went through to get to this point...that is really all that matters to me staying employed.
Unfortunately, I wish I learned this 2-3 yrs ago but I guess better late then never. It’s all about the small things in life these days. I stopped trying to grow my brand and just live and thrive in the system like all the other hospital employees. I let the admins sweat over the finances and focus more on my golf game.
 
Unfortunately, I wish I learned this 2-3 yrs ago but I guess better late then never. It’s all about the small things in life these days. I stopped trying to grow my brand and just live and thrive in the system like all the other hospital employees. I let the admins sweat over the finances and focus more on my golf game.

Exactly, it doesn't matter what we think. Doctors are not in charge so im not going around stopping my feet and beating my chest about protons/cost/efficacy blah blah blah. At the end of the day, I just don't care. Admin has made it clear, your job is to get patients (soon to be "clients") on treat and bill that's it. No more moral outrage at this or that treatment. No more late nights sweating over some ASCO or RJ paper that only serves to piss me off. I get home and I turn on South Park and scroll through the genetic bottom barrel matches I get on dating sites. If only my idiotic 22y/o self could see me now haha.
 
Exactly, it doesn't matter what we think. Doctors are not in charge so im not going around stopping my feet and beating my chest about protons/cost/efficacy blah blah blah. At the end of the day, I just don't care. Admin has made it clear, your job is to get patients (soon to be "clients") on treat and bill that's it. No more moral outrage at this or that treatment. No more late nights sweating over some ASCO or RJ paper that only serves to piss me off. I get home and I turn on South Park and scroll through the genetic bottom barrel matches I get on dating sites. If only my idiotic 22y/o self could see me now haha.
Lower your standards. You will be a happy man i hear.
 
Exactly, it doesn't matter what we think. Doctors are not in charge so im not going around stopping my feet and beating my chest about protons/cost/efficacy blah blah blah. At the end of the day, I just don't care. Admin has made it clear, your job is to get patients (soon to be "clients") on treat and bill that's it. No more moral outrage at this or that treatment. No more late nights sweating over some ASCO or RJ paper that only serves to piss me off. I get home and I turn on South Park and scroll through the genetic bottom barrel matches I get on dating sites. If only my idiotic 22y/o self could see me now haha.
 
Frosty: people use spaceoar less with protons
Gator: if anything, they use it more
Frosty: show me the data! If no data that’s anecdote
Me: like your original post, then?

no legitimate study has shown less better gi toxicity with protons.
Dude read my posts. When did I ever say protons have less GI tox. If you actually read the posts, you'll see that I didn't contend that people used less SpaceOAR with protons, I said it's not logical that that'd be the case. I'm questioning the logical validity. That's OK to do without data, right? I didn't get any data when I asked. I then replied with my own "anecdotal evidence" which proved my point that a battle of anecdotal evidence doesn't do a damn thing for anyone. I'm sure, by your misinterpretation of that thread, that you think I'm pro protons for prostate...I'm sure if people didn't understand my posts they'd think that, but it couldn't be farther from the truth. Let's interpret things like radoncs, not like surgeons.
 
In other news ...


To discuss the controversial topic of protons versus photons in prostate cancer, let us establish some truths:

  • Approximately 70% (and growing) of all level 1 evidence in localized prostate cancer involves the use of photon-based radiation therapy. Surgery is a distant second with ∼20%, and brachytherapy and conservative management round out 99% of all randomized trials in localized prostate cancer. The last 1% is from a combination of typically small or under-accrued trials of treatments such as cryotherapy.

  • Two published dose-escalation randomized trials have used protons as a boost for prostate cancer. One demonstrated high rates of gastrointestinal (GI) toxicity (32% had rectal bleeding), and the other showed a modest increase in toxicity (12% increase in grade 2+ GI toxicity).
    1,
    2 In both trials, the majority of the treatment was delivered with photons and used outdated proton and photon technologies.

  • No randomized phase 3 trials of protons versus photons in prostate cancer have been reported to date. Thus, the entirety of comparative effectiveness research to support or reject the use of protons for prostate cancer is retrospective and/or nonrandomized research.
Given these data, what are we able to conclude about protons for prostate cancer? Not much definitively, good or bad, as there remains only level 3 evidence to support their use. Thus, a better question is, what are the potentialbenefits of proton therapy for prostate cancer?

  • Cost. Cost is a complex amalgamation of dollars spent by an institution or investor, payer, and patient. In the context of prostate cancer, the net upfront costs to the health care system for protons is currently higher than that for other options. Demonstration of an improvement in patient outcomes is needed for protons to provide long-term cost savings.

  • Survival. Given that there remains no level 1 evidence that any local therapy, even dose escalation, improves survival, proton users generally have not claimed it will improve tumor control over other modalities.

  • Secondary malignancies. An advantage of protons for secondary malignancies is theoretical, limited to modeling studies, and unproven clinically for adult patients with cancer. In ProtecT, there were similar rates of death from cancers other than prostate cancer (23 for radiation therapy and 25 for surgery).
    3 If secondary malignancies are the primary concern, one would argue that surgery or brachytherapy may be preferred given no or lower integral dose compared with protons.

  • Convenience. Proton facilities, although increasingly common, require the furthest travel distance of any radiation facility.
    4Ultrahypofractionation remains less common with protons, although this may be changing.
    5

  • Toxicity/quality of life (QOL). Thus, we are left to conclude that the primary theoretical advantage of protons for prostate cancer is on toxicity or QOL. This is supported by the fact that the only open randomized trial of protons versus photons in prostate cancer has a primary endpoint of QOL.
To this point, in the current issue of the Red Journal, Vapiwala et al conducted a retrospective study on physician-reported toxicity for patients treated with moderately hypofractionated protons or photons across 7 institutions.
6 Protons were delivered to all patients via uniform scanning or pencil beam scanning. Patients who received protons were younger and treated more recently; they had lower rates of diabetes, anticoagulant use, and androgen deprivation therapy use, lower prostate-specific antigen levels, and lower (better) baseline urinary symptom scores; they were less likely to be black and less likely to be a current or former smoker; and they had a greater use of rectal spacers and rectal balloons. These differences highlight the incredibly strong selection biases at play for patients who receive proton beam therapy.
Most of the baseline differences would a priori be expected to favor the proton group to have lower toxicity. They reported an increase in acute GU grade 3+ toxicity with photons (2.7% vs 0% for photons vs protons), but data on acute toxicity were available in less than half of patients. In contrast, there was an increase in late GI grade 2+ toxicity with protons (11.1% vs 4.8%) on unadjusted analyses; this increase widened after adjustments (14.6% vs 4.7%) but was biased toward the null due to multiple covariable adjustments and did not reach conventional statistical significance. Notably, their multivariable analysis included only a select number of the reported baseline differences and did not include multiple covariables that could confound the results (eg, depression status, measures of socioeconomic status, other concurrent medications, baseline symptom scores across domains). Thus, their multivariable analysis is likely still comparing imbalanced groups for numerous variables.
Regardless, what should we conclude from these data? Given that the expected bias would favor patients being treated with protons to have better outcomes, this does give pause: The proton patients had higher grade 2+ rectal toxicity, which has been shown in other studies.
7However, it has been repeatedly shown that retrospective comparative effectiveness research is no more likely than chance to accurately identify independent causal treatment effects from randomized trials.
8 Thus, although it is tempting to use retrospective data to affirm our own biases, we would caution against this, especially because other retrospective studies show similar or improved outcomes with protons—which equally may be spurious results.
The most important lesson from the paper is that comparative effectiveness research done through observational study designs will not yield reliable answers to the question of the role of protons versus photons, owing to the incredibly high selection of biases present. Although there are ongoing observational comparative effectiveness studies with protons in prostate cancer (NCT03561220, NCT04083937), we owe it to patients to not simply report the results of potential self-fulfilling prophecies and conduct and report the results of randomized trials.
The Prostate Advanced Radiation Technologies Investigating Quality of Life (PARTIQoL, NCT01617161) trial is the first multicenter phase 3 randomized trial of protons versus photons and the only one in prostate cancer, to our knowledge. The trial has been open for 8 years, with 423 of 450 patients accrued as of March 1, 2021. The study is well positioned to rigorously address the question of protons versus photons for prostate cancer in regard to QOL. It also contains a companion registry for patients unwilling to undergo randomization, to further quantify the impact of selection bias on outcomes. Although the difficulty in conducting such a trial should not be underestimated, we must acknowledge that over 15,000 men have received proton therapy not on a randomized trial for prostate cancer during the past decade in the United States. Even if just a proportion of the patients on the study by Vapiwala et al were put on the PARTIQoL trial, it would already be fully accrued.
We congratulate Vapiwala et al for having the academic integrity to report what some will consider negative results for protons, and it will be interesting to observe how these data affect practice patterns at proton centers. This study should motivate the field now more than ever to support randomized trials to define the optimal utility of protons in oncology. If we can randomize patients to watchful waiting versus surgery (including men with high-risk prostate cancer), external beam radiation therapy versus combination brachytherapy, or external beam radiation therapy versus surgery, we can and should have equipoise to complete randomized trials of protons versus photons and not simply conduct retrospective and/or observational studies. Otherwise, this debate will continue ad infinitum.
 
In other news ...


To discuss the controversial topic of protons versus photons in prostate cancer, let us establish some truths:

  • Approximately 70% (and growing) of all level 1 evidence in localized prostate cancer involves the use of photon-based radiation therapy. Surgery is a distant second with ∼20%, and brachytherapy and conservative management round out 99% of all randomized trials in localized prostate cancer. The last 1% is from a combination of typically small or under-accrued trials of treatments such as cryotherapy.

  • Two published dose-escalation randomized trials have used protons as a boost for prostate cancer. One demonstrated high rates of gastrointestinal (GI) toxicity (32% had rectal bleeding), and the other showed a modest increase in toxicity (12% increase in grade 2+ GI toxicity).
    1,
    2 In both trials, the majority of the treatment was delivered with photons and used outdated proton and photon technologies.

  • No randomized phase 3 trials of protons versus photons in prostate cancer have been reported to date. Thus, the entirety of comparative effectiveness research to support or reject the use of protons for prostate cancer is retrospective and/or nonrandomized research.
Given these data, what are we able to conclude about protons for prostate cancer? Not much definitively, good or bad, as there remains only level 3 evidence to support their use. Thus, a better question is, what are the potentialbenefits of proton therapy for prostate cancer?

  • Cost. Cost is a complex amalgamation of dollars spent by an institution or investor, payer, and patient. In the context of prostate cancer, the net upfront costs to the health care system for protons is currently higher than that for other options. Demonstration of an improvement in patient outcomes is needed for protons to provide long-term cost savings.

  • Survival. Given that there remains no level 1 evidence that any local therapy, even dose escalation, improves survival, proton users generally have not claimed it will improve tumor control over other modalities.

  • Secondary malignancies. An advantage of protons for secondary malignancies is theoretical, limited to modeling studies, and unproven clinically for adult patients with cancer. In ProtecT, there were similar rates of death from cancers other than prostate cancer (23 for radiation therapy and 25 for surgery).
    3 If secondary malignancies are the primary concern, one would argue that surgery or brachytherapy may be preferred given no or lower integral dose compared with protons.

  • Convenience. Proton facilities, although increasingly common, require the furthest travel distance of any radiation facility.
    4Ultrahypofractionation remains less common with protons, although this may be changing.
    5

  • Toxicity/quality of life (QOL). Thus, we are left to conclude that the primary theoretical advantage of protons for prostate cancer is on toxicity or QOL. This is supported by the fact that the only open randomized trial of protons versus photons in prostate cancer has a primary endpoint of QOL.
To this point, in the current issue of the Red Journal, Vapiwala et al conducted a retrospective study on physician-reported toxicity for patients treated with moderately hypofractionated protons or photons across 7 institutions.
6 Protons were delivered to all patients via uniform scanning or pencil beam scanning. Patients who received protons were younger and treated more recently; they had lower rates of diabetes, anticoagulant use, and androgen deprivation therapy use, lower prostate-specific antigen levels, and lower (better) baseline urinary symptom scores; they were less likely to be black and less likely to be a current or former smoker; and they had a greater use of rectal spacers and rectal balloons. These differences highlight the incredibly strong selection biases at play for patients who receive proton beam therapy.
Most of the baseline differences would a priori be expected to favor the proton group to have lower toxicity. They reported an increase in acute GU grade 3+ toxicity with photons (2.7% vs 0% for photons vs protons), but data on acute toxicity were available in less than half of patients. In contrast, there was an increase in late GI grade 2+ toxicity with protons (11.1% vs 4.8%) on unadjusted analyses; this increase widened after adjustments (14.6% vs 4.7%) but was biased toward the null due to multiple covariable adjustments and did not reach conventional statistical significance. Notably, their multivariable analysis included only a select number of the reported baseline differences and did not include multiple covariables that could confound the results (eg, depression status, measures of socioeconomic status, other concurrent medications, baseline symptom scores across domains). Thus, their multivariable analysis is likely still comparing imbalanced groups for numerous variables.
Regardless, what should we conclude from these data? Given that the expected bias would favor patients being treated with protons to have better outcomes, this does give pause: The proton patients had higher grade 2+ rectal toxicity, which has been shown in other studies.
7However, it has been repeatedly shown that retrospective comparative effectiveness research is no more likely than chance to accurately identify independent causal treatment effects from randomized trials.
8 Thus, although it is tempting to use retrospective data to affirm our own biases, we would caution against this, especially because other retrospective studies show similar or improved outcomes with protons—which equally may be spurious results.
The most important lesson from the paper is that comparative effectiveness research done through observational study designs will not yield reliable answers to the question of the role of protons versus photons, owing to the incredibly high selection of biases present. Although there are ongoing observational comparative effectiveness studies with protons in prostate cancer (NCT03561220, NCT04083937), we owe it to patients to not simply report the results of potential self-fulfilling prophecies and conduct and report the results of randomized trials.
The Prostate Advanced Radiation Technologies Investigating Quality of Life (PARTIQoL, NCT01617161) trial is the first multicenter phase 3 randomized trial of protons versus photons and the only one in prostate cancer, to our knowledge. The trial has been open for 8 years, with 423 of 450 patients accrued as of March 1, 2021. The study is well positioned to rigorously address the question of protons versus photons for prostate cancer in regard to QOL. It also contains a companion registry for patients unwilling to undergo randomization, to further quantify the impact of selection bias on outcomes. Although the difficulty in conducting such a trial should not be underestimated, we must acknowledge that over 15,000 men have received proton therapy not on a randomized trial for prostate cancer during the past decade in the United States. Even if just a proportion of the patients on the study by Vapiwala et al were put on the PARTIQoL trial, it would already be fully accrued.
We congratulate Vapiwala et al for having the academic integrity to report what some will consider negative results for protons, and it will be interesting to observe how these data affect practice patterns at proton centers. This study should motivate the field now more than ever to support randomized trials to define the optimal utility of protons in oncology. If we can randomize patients to watchful waiting versus surgery (including men with high-risk prostate cancer), external beam radiation therapy versus combination brachytherapy, or external beam radiation therapy versus surgery, we can and should have equipoise to complete randomized trials of protons versus photons and not simply conduct retrospective and/or observational studies. Otherwise, this debate will continue ad infinitum.
Nancy Lee:. "we will still continue to use protons, data be damned"
 
Some estimates have distal end RBE as >4-7 depending on tumor. “Average distal RBE” probably lower than that in 1.3-1.7 range. Estimates of RBE on normal tissues are simply inadequate.

Some NRG group chairs use their own (tighter than published) constraints especially in reirradiation. Largely based on seeing lots of unexpected end of range proton toxicity for instance in esophagus treating lung.

I have my own reservations. Seen “late” toxicities some of which manifested acutely! Severe stuff. Tissue necrosis? G4 neuro complications while respecting conservative constraints? Well it’s protons so must be better for you.

Someone posted here awhile back that the worst post-RT salvage prostatectomy tissue damage/fibrosis were in patients receiving protons, from a urology source.
 
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Someone posted here awhile back that the worst post-RT salvage prostatectomy tissue damage/fibrosis were in patients receiving protons, from a urology source.
I did... One of the high volume salvage RP guys in our area said protons were the worst compared to imrt, cryo, hifu etc
 
This is Mengele-y! My own story which I will never forget is a patient with a pubic ramus fracture. Never got complete details but evidently on some fractions/days at the place he was treated they did an AP beam only. If I had an IMRT patient get a pubic ramus fracture from treating his Gleason 6 prostate cancer, I'd ditch IMRT. Protons are freaky. X-rays are just going to mess with covalent bonds and deal strictly with chemical changes. Protons induce nuclear chemistry and can transmutate elements. Not chemistry... it's alchemy. Oh hey, I used to be a carbon atom here in this DNA molecule, or cell wall, or protein. Now I'm boron. Or I was nitrogen, now I'm carbon. Or was oxygen, now I'm a nitrogen. (Maybe P -> Si due to less strong force or some such is more likely; I'm no nuclear chemist.) Thanks proton beam. Also, proton therapy is a mild form of neutron therapy. Neutrons don't play. Just ask Roger Ebert ('s ghost), recipient of pure neutron therapy. "I believe my infatuation with neutron radiation led directly to the failure of all three of my facial surgeries, the loss of my jaw, loss of the ability to eat, drink and speak."
 
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Some estimates have distal end RBE as >4-7 depending on tumor. “Average distal RBE” probably lower than that in 1.3-1.7 range. Estimates of RBE on normal tissues are simply inadequate.

Some NRG group chairs use their own (tighter than published) constraints especially in reirradiation. Largely based on seeing lots of unexpected end of range proton toxicity for instance in esophagus treating lung.

I have my own reservations. Seen “late” toxicities some of which manifested acutely! Severe stuff. Tissue necrosis? G4 neuro complications while respecting conservative constraints? Is it normal to see skin toxicity overlying the femoral heads when treating with proton laterals for prostate?
Well it’s protons so must be better for you.

Someone posted here awhile back that the worst post-RT salvage prostatectomy tissue damage/fibrosis were in patients receiving protons, from a urology source.
None of the slick pictures of proton vs photon dose distributions
show effective 40% + biological hot spots at the edge of a ptv adjacent/involving a critical structure.
 
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This is Mengele-y! My own story which I will never forget is a patient with a pubic ramus fracture. Never got complete details but evidently on some fractions/days at the place he was treated they did an AP beam only. If I had an IMRT patient get a pubic ramus fracture from treating his Gleason 6 prostate cancer, I'd ditch IMRT. Protons are freaky. X-rays are just going to mess with covalent bonds and deal strictly with chemical changes. Protons induce nuclear chemistry and can transmutate elements. Not chemistry... it's alchemy. Oh hey, I used to be a carbon atom here in this DNA molecule, or cell wall, or protein. Now I'm boron. Or I was nitrogen, now I'm carbon. Or was oxygen, now I'm a nitrogen. (Maybe P -> Si due to less strong force or some such is more likely; I'm no nuclear chemist.) Thanks proton beam. Also, proton therapy is a mild form of neutron therapy. Neutrons don't play. Just ask Roger Ebert ('s ghost), recipient of pure neutron therapy. "I believe my infatuation with neutron radiation led directly to the failure of all three of my facial surgeries, the loss of my jaw, loss of the ability to eat, drink and speak."


I think sacral fractures following sacral chordoma proton tx are underreported. Used to work at a high volume centre that referred out a tonne of those for protons, would get the treatment, then come back to us for followup. Efficacious, but late toxicity that I would be surprised to find reported in their studies since they’re not actively following anymore. Mind you, this is in a situation where there should be a clear advantage for proton tx.
 
Why do some freak out about the small amount of neutrons from high-energy IMRT and offer cautionary warnings. But for protons (despite "Since the beginning of clinical proton therapy, it has been known that neutrons are produced by interactions of the proton beam with matter") folks just do some hand-waving re: the neutron contamination and say "likely" there's nothing to see here folks. There's some strikingly significant retrospective data re: 2nd malignancy risk w/ photons vs protons, and if I were a proton user I would tout it. But clearly I am not a proton user.
 
It would be helpful if there were true believers out there who would give testimony here about how great protons are. (Impossible for a site like prostate where toxicity should be low regardless but perhaps uniilateral H&N?). I trained at a place that was reluctant to invest in protons (subsequently they have) and have been in the community since. However, I rarely encounter true believers among those with clinical experience with them. I hear about the significant effort to get a good plan and the uncertainties involved.

Maybe we should have a separate thread about the lymphopenia narrative? This is clearly being pushed pretty hard by the MDACC crew as a justification for protons despite what I would consider very mixed data in clinical experience.
 
As of 6/24/21, protons have missed their opportunity to show a true clinical advantage. Everything I see is based on a theoretical advantage and due to the high cost, it’s all about marketing. I trained at a place that had protons and overall I’m not convinced.

With that said, I still send my re-treats, etc for consultation and let them work their magic. I used to re-treat with some fancy IMRT/SBRT/SRS plan with expected results/toxicities but isn’t this the reason why we are using protons?
 
With that said, I still send my re-treats, etc for consultation and let them work their magic. I used to re-treat with some fancy IMRT/SBRT/SRS plan with expected results/toxicities but isn’t this the reason why we are using protons?

Depends. If your retreat is directly abutting something you want to avoid protons are not going to help and as discussed in this thread there is at least theoretical reason to think they could (and can't stress could enough) even be worse. If there is some spacing and you can actually avoid something better with protons they could be better. If it is small or focal enough to do SRS/SBRT then it is hard for me to imagine that reduced exit/entrance dose with protons compared to photons is actually going to buy you anything. Typically its the high doses that get you into real trouble with retreatment.

I admit, I am obviously not a in the pro-proton camp but I have to agree with frosty that you have to be careful looking at anecdotal evidence. I treat a lot of pelvic cancers and went 8 years without seeing a sacral insufficiency fracture then saw 2 in the last 18 months. One was not a shock (a horrific perianal skin cancer with a fistulous tract up to the coccyx...I cooked it) but the other was a conventional 3-field 45 Gy rectal plan. Fortunately with some PT it resolved without any other intervention and she is fine now. Point is, if she had been treated with protons and I saw that I might have been quick to say something like "I have treated hundreds of rectal cancers with photons and never seen and SI fracture" and I would probably have been quick to blame the protons.
 
i think we need to do the research and let the data play out. What seems like a daunting task such as figuring out the RBE changes will likely eventually be figured out.

When IMRT first came out in the days of the peacock, many doubted and warned low dose bath was terrible, you will “miss”. Many were saying it, even “leaders”. We must remain humble and let the data play out and admit we do not know as much as we should.

Arc therapy with protons is something people are looking into. Some think this is a stupid thing to do. I say i do not know and we’ll see what happens!
 
Depends. If your retreat is directly abutting something you want to avoid protons are not going to help and as discussed in this thread there is at least theoretical reason to think they could (and can't stress could enough) even be worse. If there is some spacing and you can actually avoid something better with protons they could be better. If it is small or focal enough to do SRS/SBRT then it is hard for me to imagine that reduced exit/entrance dose with protons compared to photons is actually going to buy you anything. Typically its the high doses that get you into real trouble with retreatment.
Doesnt leave much room for protons.
 
i think we need to do the research and let the data play out. What seems like a daunting task such as figuring out the RBE changes will likely eventually be figured out.

When IMRT first came out in the days of the peacock, many doubted and warned low dose bath was terrible, you will “miss”. Many were saying it, even “leaders”. We must remain humble and let the data play out and admit we do not know as much as we should.

Arc therapy with protons is something people are looking into. Some think this is a stupid thing to do. I say i do not know and we’ll see what happens!
Protons need to move out of the house, get a job, quit smoking weed, and grow up. We can't keep coddling protons forever, Dad!
 
Protons need to move out of the house, get a job, quit smoking weed, and grow up. We can't keep coddling protons forever, Dad!
I submit that all ASTRO “leaders” pee in a cup before being admitted inside. I will gladly stand there in a mask handing out the cups and the wipes.
 
How many negative (or *gasp*, even inferior) trials have been buried? Protons has had decades to make it happen. Protons has not made it happen.

Defund protons.
Physics and the universe are under no obligation to make sense to us or to adapt to our timeline.

end self flagellation.
 
And payors are under no obligation to reimburse at 4x forever.

Plenty of studies have been done. A fraction of such studies have been published. 2+2=fail.

End profiteering.
Many insurers will only pay imrt rates. Some in California have stopped paying altogether for low risk prostate
 
And payors are under no obligation to reimburse at 4x forever.

Plenty of studies have been done. A fraction of such studies have been published. 2+2=fail.

End profiteering.
To me, this right here is the issue. I don't think that protons are useless. If people want to be more thoughtful about how they can be used and run useful prospective trials I am more than fine with that. But I think it is insane that any payor is giving them a dime over IMRT charges given the absolute lack of evidence they are any better. Even worse when they are used as a marketing ploy.
 
Can anyone vouch for this?


It is in the article. Around 14 pts needed laser or electrocauteey

“Thirty-one patients experienced a maximum of GR2 RB, of whom 17 received medical management only (GR2A) and 14 received argon photocoagulation or electrocautery (GR2B). Only 1 patient experienced GR3 RB, …”
 
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And payors are under no obligation to reimburse at 4x forever.

Plenty of studies have been done. A fraction of such studies have been published. 2+2=fail.

End profiteering.
Theres a difference between charging something and actually getting paid that money. Ignore Saudi prince paying cash and getting a building named. Ongoing particle therapy studies are hard to enroll on them because the same companies who demand data also do not pay for the data to be collected so it is being done on medicare patients and IMRT rates.

also many on this board made a killing and “profiteered” back in IMRT golden days.
 
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It is in the article. Around 14 pts needed laser or electrocauteey

Thirty-one patients experienced a maximum of GR2 RB, of whom 17 received medical management only (GR2A) and 14 received argon photocoagulation or electrocautery (GR2B). Only 1 patient experienced GR3 RB, r

Might be without space OAR, their methods section is a bit confusing - From the article:

"Supine positioning was secured with a vacuum-locked body mold. Rectal balloons were inserted in all patients and filled with 90 mL of saline. Rectal spacer (SpaceOAR, Augmenix) use at our center began in mid-2016; at the time of this analysis, most did not have adequate follow-up for inclusion. Urethrograms and magnetic resonance imaging prostate scans were performed per the physician's preference."

I cannot imagine for the life of me subjecting a patient to DAILY rectal balloon for anything more than 5 fraction SBRT. That in and of itself should be a HUGE red flag to anyone in this space.

That being said, this is crap proton prostate radiation techniques, I can't believe this was published in 2019, for patients treated between 2013 and 2016. From the methods of their article:

" Two laterally opposed beams were used in the majority of treatment plans, with approximately half of patients treated with 2 fields per day (52%) versus 1 field per day (48%)."

The fact people use that as a defense of protons when it's not even IMPT is such absurd garbage to me. It'd be like me defending photons (from say like orthovoltage or electrons) and saying AP/PA is the best treatment for a specific treatment site.
 
Once again the best and most modern series is out of UF which i have linked previously. Many proton papers are done with old terrible no good crap techniques, in old/bad machines with large spot sizes. Youd be surprised how many places even “top” very recently were treating without image guidance. Interpreting the data requires nuance and knowledge, not just reading a publication date and assuming “modern” techniques were used
 
Seattle protons are newer than uF. Isn’t pencil beam/impt state of the art? The one beam a day thing is concerning, but was not associated with worse toxicity. Why wasn’t this published in the red journal?
 
I doubt it comes to pass and i hope I don't end up doxing myself here, but the powers that be have us (mostly physics and admin) doing a deep dive into the logistics generating a detail pro forma into putting in a proton unit. Why? Because a few major donors feel like we should be able to offer anything our regional competitors are able to offer and are willing to pony up see it happen (though just how much they want to pony up remains to be seen). For me as a provider would it be cool to be able to offer basically everything under the sun (protons, MR linac, GK, HDR, etc)? Sure. In the bigger picture, is there a logistical reason for a mid-sized Midwest program to have all those toys? Probably not. But this is the reality of how these things proliferate sometimes 🙁
 
I doubt it comes to pass and i hope I don't end up doxing myself here, but the powers that be have us (mostly physics and admin) doing a deep dive into the logistics generating a detail pro forma into putting in a proton unit. Why? Because a few major donors feel like we should be able to offer anything our regional competitors are able to offer and are willing to pony up see it happen (though just how much they want to pony up remains to be seen). For me as a provider would it be cool to be able to offer basically everything under the sun (protons, MR linac, GK, HDR, etc)? Sure. In the bigger picture, is there a logistical reason for a mid-sized Midwest program to have all those toys? Probably not. But this is the reality of how these things proliferate sometimes 🙁
I believe a MRI Linac is worth the long term investment over a Proton machine but who am I in this game. I just “shut up and treat.”
 
I doubt it comes to pass and i hope I don't end up doxing myself here, but the powers that be have us (mostly physics and admin) doing a deep dive into the logistics generating a detail pro forma into putting in a proton unit. Why? Because a few major donors feel like we should be able to offer anything our regional competitors are able to offer and are willing to pony up see it happen (though just how much they want to pony up remains to be seen). For me as a provider would it be cool to be able to offer basically everything under the sun (protons, MR linac, GK, HDR, etc)? Sure. In the bigger picture, is there a logistical reason for a mid-sized Midwest program to have all those toys? Probably not. But this is the reality of how these things proliferate sometimes 🙁

The big health systems and academic centers are buying every technology to compete and draw patients, often with the help of donations.

It's an arms race at this point. If your competition gets protons, you have to get protons...

MRI Linac used to be the consolation prize for chairs who wanted protons but couldn't find the money for it.

As single room protons gets cheaper, we're getting to the point where a lot of academic places are just getting both.

Meanwhile, I'm half of our MRI-linac volume and the biggest user of protons at our center at this point. One of my colleagues called me "big rad onc" yesterday. If it's there I might as well use it, I guess???
 
The big health systems and academic centers are buying every technology to compete and draw patients, often with the help of donations.

It's an arms race at this point. If your competition gets protons, you have to get protons...

MRI Linac used to be the consolation prize for chairs who wanted protons but couldn't find the money for it.

As single room protons gets cheaper, we're getting to the point where a lot of academic places are just getting both.

Meanwhile, I'm half of our MRI-linac volume and the biggest user of protons at our center at this point. One of my colleagues called me "big rad onc" yesterday. If it's there I might as well use it, I guess???
Dude you’re one of the Lords of rad onc!
 
I doubt it comes to pass and i hope I don't end up doxing myself here, but the powers that be have us (mostly physics and admin) doing a deep dive into the logistics generating a detail pro forma into putting in a proton unit. Why? Because a few major donors feel like we should be able to offer anything our regional competitors are able to offer and are willing to pony up see it happen (though just how much they want to pony up remains to be seen). For me as a provider would it be cool to be able to offer basically everything under the sun (protons, MR linac, GK, HDR, etc)? Sure. In the bigger picture, is there a logistical reason for a mid-sized Midwest program to have all those toys? Probably not. But this is the reality of how these things proliferate sometimes 🙁
When you guys get them it will all of a sudden be a fantastic modality with many applications. I have spoken.
 
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