Providing Feedback to Externship Supervisors

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feedbackninja

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I'm a long-time member of this board, but my previous posts provide information that could potentially identify me. So, under this pseudonym (of a pseudonym), I would like some advice on how to handle providing feedback to an externship supervisor.

To provide some context, the externship involves neuropsychological assessment at a psychiatric hospital and I've worked there for approximately 16 hours a week since last July. The externship itself has been a great training experience - I do one to two full test batteries a week and generally write at least one of the reports. The cases have been diverse in both demographics and presenting problems (I've quite literally seen every possible type of psychiatric disorder in varying degrees of severity), and I've had the opportunity to run groups on the inpatient units.

However, the externship operates through a tiered supervisory situation, with my direct supervisor being a fellow, who is then supervised by a licensed psychologist. I rarely see the psychologist (approximately 4 times since last July), but all of my interactions with her have been very positive. The fellow, on the other hand, has been a constant source of distress for me.

I do not come from a neuropsych program and had very little exposure to the area prior to starting the externship. I was given no training in how to administer the assessments (instead I was told to read the manuals and figure it out by myself), and no instruction on how various cognitive deficits indicated the presence specific mental disorders. Yet, the fellow expected me to know this information and, when I expressed my uncertainty, would become dismissive and condescending.

Even in the few areas where I was well-versed, due to my program's area of focus, he would dismiss any suggestions I made as clearly wrong, despite my extensive training on the topic (to the point where he administered an assessment so incorrectly the results were likely invalid). He also will frequently criticize my writing abilities in a way that is borderline cruel, while providing absolutely no positive feedback. His treatment has led to me questioning my own capabilities and wondering if I have suddenly lost the ability to communicate effectively. Luckily, I have had the opportunity to work with other supervisors for specific cases and their positive feedback has reassured me that his beliefs are not universally held.

I now have approximately six weeks left at the placement and I would like to provide him with some feedback as to how his demeanor has affected my experience. As this was his first experience being a supervisor, I feel like I have some responsibility to provide him with this feedback, so he does not continue this pattern unwittingly. However, based on our contentious relationship, I'm not sure how receptive he will be to it. I'm considering approaching our mutual supervisor, the psychologist, and providing the feedback to her to pass along to him as part of her own feedback, but I'm concerned that this will come off as petty or vindictive.

Of the three options I have (speak to him directly, speak to our mutual supervisor, or keep my mouth shut), which do you think would be the most appropriate course of action? It should be noted that while I'm not intending to secure a letter of recommendation from him, I will be trying to do so from the psychologist. I am also unaware of how much the psychologist knows about the difficulties I have been having (or what the fellow might have communicated about my role in the situation). Any advice would be much appreciated!

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some initial feedback for you: paragraph breaks might enhance the readability of that block of text
 
some initial feedback for you: paragraph breaks might enhance the readability of that block of text
Good point! I wrote it on my phone, so did not realize how lengthy the post had become. It should now be in sections of a more digestible length. (See how responsive I am to feedback? )
 
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I now have approximately six weeks left at the placement and I would like to provide him with some feedback as to how his demeanor has affected my experience. As this was his first experience being a supervisor, I feel like I have some responsibility to provide him with this feedback, so he does not continue this pattern unwittingly.

It doesn't sound like you actually want to provide feedback. It sounds like you want to make punitive comments intended to make him feel bad because he made you feel bad.

You should probably talk about the issue with another faculty you can trust. You should probably talk about your reaction to working with someone you don't get along with, because it *will* happen again and your reaction is unhelpful. I don't think you should bring your concerns to the SV in your present vindictive mindset, even if they are legit concerns.
 
While I don't deny that I have been upset by his actions, I'm not sure I would characterize my intentions as vindictive... What part of my post gave you that impression?

I honestly do think he would benefit from hearing my perspective on our working relationship, if only to become aware that his current supervisory style may not be an effective method of encouraging productivity. If I were in his position, I would want to know how I am being viewed by the people who work with me. It's not like I am going to burst into his office, start crying, and accuse him of being an a**hole. Rather, I envision scheduling a mutual feedback session where he has the opportunity to provide constructive criticism as well (though I predict he will not be able to do this without becoming excessively hurtful). I have no intention of personally attacking him or addressing anything other than our work together. Is that really such a vindictive wish?
 
Rather, I envision scheduling a mutual feedback session where he has the opportunity to provide constructive criticism as well (though I predict he will not be able to do this without becoming excessively hurtful).

How do you see this conversation going? Do you really see it being productive or giving him information that he will use? I'm doubtful. I agree with mc parent to talk to a mentor or possibly your mutual supervisor. Keri in mind that it's always best to address these things with a mentor from the angle that you are having an issue working with someone and need advice managing the relationship. Do not blame him. If you are right and he is the problem, you look like a bigger (and more mature) person for not pinning it on him, and if you are contributing to the issue without being aware of it, approaching it this way will allow you to get feedback on that without getting defensive.

Also, his supervisors may be aware of the issue and be addressing it in ways you don't see- you never know. Regardless, unless you have a good relationship with someone and they explicitly ask you for feedback, providing 'constructive criticism' rarely goes well.

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Are there any formal mechanisms in place for providing feedback? For instance, at my internship site if a fellow supervises us, or if we supervise a practicum student, there is an evaluation form that the supervisee is to fill out at the end of the experience. As others have mentioned, providing feedback is tricky, even if it has the potential to be helpful to the supervisor. I've certainly had experiences where a supervisor asked for feedback, in the context of a good relationship, and it still led to awkward or negative outcomes.
 
We get so many of these threads, quite sad. A lot of the supervisors seem like absolute crap.
 
We get so many of these threads, quite sad. A lot of the supervisors seem like absolute crap.

Keep in mind that just like anything else, folks usually only post threads about these things when it's a negative experience. Not to minimize the events/experiences themselves, of course, but using this forum as a way of trying to gauge how often these things happen would probably lead to an over-estimation of the frequency of their occurrence. In my case, for example, I've never had what I would consider to be a negative supervisory experience. Part of that might just be due to the way I choose to frame things in my mind, but I've yet to work with a supervisor who made me feel degraded or insulted, or from whom I wasn't able to learn something.

To the OP: I agree with the others that addressing it with the postdoc directly may not be your best bet. If he's truly as negative as you've expressed in your original post, then I'd say the odds of him taking that type of constructive criticism well seem fairly small. Your best bet, IMO, would be to address it with your mutual supervisor, and hopefully there's a formal channel for this type of feedback to occur once the rotation ends.
 
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We get so many of these threads, quite sad. A lot of the supervisors seem like absolute crap.

Uh, you have seen a handful of examples on this board out of what-20,000 supervisors total?
 
Uh, you have seen a handful of examples on this board out of what-20,000 supervisors total?

Workplace bullying/abusive bosses is a fairly significant problem, so its partly the posts here but mostly that knowledge.
 
I really dont think that an accurate analogy at all.

Clinical supervision is actually a tricky thing to do well. Peoples personalities aren't always going to mesh and meeting a student exactly where there are and providing solid direction within a nebulous process/topic is NOT easy. I would say this is usually what causes problems in supervisory relationship, not bullying or lack of interest/care for the students learning.
 
I really dont think that an accurate analogy at all.

Clinical supervision is actually a tricky thing to do well. Peoples personalities aren't always going to mesh and meeting a student exactly where there are and providing solid direction within a nebulous process/topic is NOT easy. I would say this is usually what causes problems in supervisory relationship, not bullying or lack of interest/care for the students learning.

Well you clearly know more about the difficulties of supervision (maybe you remember but I started a thread asking how supervision works just some days ago), so if you have something to add to that, the thread is near the bottom of the first page.)

In any case, no matter how difficult supervision is, workplace bullying/and bosses that are not professional or abusive, is something that too many people complain about. I understand that part of the cause is the stress of a job, different personalities, but none of those reasons are good excuses.
 
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Well you clearly know more about the difficulties of supervision (maybe you remember but I started a thread asking how supervision works just some days ago), so if you have something to add to that, the thread is near the bottom of the first page.)

In any case, no matter how difficult supervision is, workplace bullying/and bosses that are not professional or abusive, is something that too many people complain about. I understand that part of the cause is the stress of a job, different personalities, but none of those reasons are good excuses.

Again, no one has made any excuses for such a thing. I would challenge the notion that this (bulling) is the culprit when there is a poor supervisory relationship or poor quality of supervision the vast majority of the time.

I looked at your thread and it looks like the question was answered. Do you have another question?
 
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I looked at your thread and it looks like the question was answered. Do you have another question?

I was hoping that people would run-down some personal experiences where they were recieving training/supervision during their Phd and then when they were in a supervisory position. Maybe personal examples of situations they enjoyed while in training and bad ones with supervisors, and same for those who have had positive and negative relationships with students when in supervisory postions. And in general what you took out of those experiences.
 
I would not provide feedback directly. If there is a way to do it, either talk to another faculty member or put it in writing (constructively) and have it documented (anonymously if need be).

You may have to bite your lip in this situation. I know you want to make a point, and you may be able to do it but in a small gesture (e.g., constructive feedback, notes to the head of staff). I have heard several situations like this (one from my own supervisor's experience). Perhaps you could recommend a supervisory course for all staff ;)
 
While I don't deny that I have been upset by his actions, I'm not sure I would characterize my intentions as vindictive... What part of my post gave you that impression?

I got that impression because the info you posted really doesn't sound to me like much more than a conflictual work style (which happens all the time, everywhere), but you seemed to take it really personally.

You said that you got this prac without really knowing how to do the work involved (which I'm confused about, because you said this was both new to you and that you have "extensive training" on the topic). You seem like you expected praise from the SV about your work anyway. You seem to have felt personally shaken by his feedback (enough to make you question yourself and seek outside validation).

Maybe the SV really is an ass. OK, you'll have to work with people who are asses; if he's really this much of a boor it's doubtful that he is unaware of it or has never heard that before. However, this seems to me like a mutual conflict, made worse because you appear to be taking critical and negative feedback badly and the supervisor may be bad at giving feedback, but you seem to be putting it all on the SV and seeing him as incompetent, a boor, etc. I'm encouraging you to talk it out with a mentor beforehand to excise the animosity you feel about this before you consider going to the SV.
 
Thanks for all of the suggestions! I do want to address a couple of the points that people have brought up:

1. I realize from what I have posted that it may seem that I am being overly sensitive, but I deliberately did not include details of the more egregious interactions I have had with the fellow, as I believe they would be too specific to my situation (and thus, risk my anonymity). However, as I have no doubt that the fellow has been inappropriate in his interactions with me (to the point where other externs and staff members have commented on it), I did not think they were necessary for the purpose of the post. I am not looking for validation that I have been treated poorly, but rather for advice on how (or whether) to address the situation.

2. I have discussed the situation with both my DCT and my therapist. My DCT offered to contact our mutual supervisor (the psychologist) for me, but I felt that would cause more conflict and assign more importance to this situation than necessary. I am not looking to cause issues for the fellow, as I am sure that he is also looking for a positive recommendation from our supervisor, but I do feel uncomfortable leaving the externship without addressing what has happened. I do not think the fellow is a "bad" person, but rather that he has been under a great deal of stress this year with licensing exams, job searches, being a fellow, and learning to be a supervisor, and that has perhaps exacerbated an underlying tendency to be a bit of a jerk to those he has power over. I also suspect that he feels a bit overwhelmed with his own responsibilities (he supervises myself and another extern, and together we conduct all of the psychological assessments in the entire psychiatric hospital), and that has resulted in him lashing out.

I also know that he is capable of being a good supervisor, as the other extern he supervises has not had as difficult of an experience as I have (though it has recently taken a turn for the worse and she has born the brunt of a few of his outbursts). I realize that this suggests that part of our conflict is due to a mismatch in interpersonal styles/personalities, and it has been pointed out to me that the other extern's more subservient manner is why she has had fewer issues. However, I do not believe I should have to be overly fawning and obsequious to be a good extern. I have always been respectful and deferred to his superior knowledge, but I do ask questions and I do ask for the reasoning behind opinions that I do not understand or agree with (when time allows). To me, that is the essence of what a training experience is supposed to provide - the skills and knowledge necessary to perform the same tasks and come to the same conclusions as your supervisor when you are practicing on your own. I have also discussed how this has made me feel with my therapist, and I feel I have a fairly good grasp on how much of this has to do with me and how much of this is a legitimate issue.

3. I agree that speaking with him directly might not be the best solution. However, as I mentioned above, I am worried that going to our mutual supervisor will reflect poorly on me (i.e. looking petty/vindictive) and might have unduly negative consequences for the fellow. Once again, I am not looking to throw him under the bus; I just want to communicate that his behavior has not been appropriate, so that he might think twice about his behavior in the future. As far as I know, there is no mechanism in place for providing feedback (such as a survey). Based on everyone's comments, it seems as if the consensus is that I should not attempt to provide feedback to the fellow or to our mutual supervisor, unless it is directly requested - is that an accurate conclusion?

4. Finally, just to clear up some confusion, I am not trained in neuropsychology (and this was made clear to our mutual supervisor before I accepted the externship) and, prior to starting, I had absolutely no exposure to 95% of the measures we administer. However, my program has a very specific specialty (which is small enough that naming would impact my anonymity), and I have received extensive training in that niche. We happened to have a case that fell within that specialty, so, for that one instance, I had superior training in administering the measures than the fellow.

I really appreciate everyone's suggestions and feedback, and for taking the time to read my (perhaps unnecessarily) long responses!
 
I will say (unrelated to the OP's situation, but related to supervision in general) that I've seen plenty of trainees complain about supervisors simply for the sake of complaining...as in, there honestly didn't seem like there would've been any way for the trainee to not complain about something. For whatever reason, my experience has been that there's a sizable minority of students in psych (as in other fields, I'm sure) who complain just for the sake of complaining, with this negative outlook also permeating various other areas of their training and personal lives.

Similarly, there are certainly supervisors who, while not cruel, are very abrasive in the way that they provide feedback to trainees. This has generally never bothered me, but my personal thoughts on the matter are that there are more effective ways to instruct and correct.

OP, in your case, I'd say providing feedback to the mutual supervisor at the end of the rotation may be your best bet. I do feel that the postdoc should get some type of feedback about your experience so that, particularly if he hears similar feedback in the future (or has received such feedback in the past), he has the opportunity to adjust his supervisors style. I'd certainly want to know if (and why) any of my trainees were unhappy with my supervision.
 
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3. I agree that speaking with him directly might not be the best solution. However, as I mentioned above, I am worried that going to our mutual supervisor will reflect poorly on me (i.e. looking petty/vindictive) and might have unduly negative consequences for the fellow.

Because it's not an ethical issue, I don't think going to the mutual supervisor is appropriate (it would be different if it were an ethical issue or an issue of verbal abuse, which it does not sound like it is to me). I think you're right that you could be looked upon poorly for that (e.g., trying to triangular, trying to "rally the troops" to your side before bringing it up with the SV).

This is a good training experience for you (you will find many people in the future you will not get along with, and you will interact in professional environments with many people who you find insulting or rude, as everyone does everywhere to one degree or another), especially if you're willing to process with a trusted supervisor about how you're going to handle these sorts of situations in the future. It sounds like you perceive that the SV wants reverence (as many people in supervisory roles do) and you're not willing to provide that degree of what you see as supplication, which is fine, and you can figure out different ways of dealing with people like this.
 
OP, in your case, I'd say providing feedback to the mutual supervisor at the end of the rotation may be your best bet. I do feel that the postdoc should get some type of feedback about your experience so that, particularly if he hears similar feedback in the future (or has received such feedback in the past), he has the opportunity to adjust his supervisors style. I'd certainly want to know if (and why) any of my trainees were unhappy with my supervision.

Thank you for your input. As it appears you are in a similar position as the fellow I am working with, it is encouraging to hear that you would want to receive the feedback. I will probably wait until mid-June, just to ensure that there are no formal feedback mechanisms in place, and then reach out to our mutual supervisor. It will also give me some time to work on framing the feedback in a neutral and professional manner.

Because it's not an ethical issue, I don't think going to the mutual supervisor is appropriate (it would be different if it were an ethical issue or an issue of verbal abuse, which it does not sound like it is to me). I think you're right that you could be looked upon poorly for that (e.g., trying to triangular, trying to "rally the troops" to your side before bringing it up with the SV).

This is a good training experience for you (you will find many people in the future you will not get along with, and you will interact in professional environments with many people who you find insulting or rude, as everyone does everywhere to one degree or another), especially if you're willing to process with a trusted supervisor about how you're going to handle these sorts of situations in the future. It sounds like you perceive that the SV wants reverence (as many people in supervisory roles do) and you're not willing to provide that degree of what you see as supplication, which is fine, and you can figure out different ways of dealing with people like this.

I am a little curious as to why you are so focused on my behavior in this situation.... To be honest, it makes me wonder whether you have received negative feedback from individuals you supervised and found it to be unjustified. I could be completely off-base (as it is difficult to communicate tone through text), but it appears as though you are placing the lion's share of the blame for this situation on my shoulders and perceive that these interpersonal difficulties have affected my ability to work effectively with the fellow. To the contrary, I have dealt with his behavior using all of the tools at my disposal.

For the most part, I ignore any comments that he makes that are not directly related to my work product; those that are, I ignore the tone and address the underlying issue that he is trying to communicate. I have been consistently cordial, friendly, and respectful in all interactions with him, and have never lost my temper or reacted unprofessionally. I actually have considerable experience working with unpleasant or difficult people, and I use that experience to minimize the amount of harm these situations can cause.

However, just because I am capable of working with an unpleasant supervisor, does not give him the right to treat me this way. I am an unpaid extern who is providing my time and effort in exchange for training and supervision. If either one of those things are inadequate, I have the right to express my dissatisfaction. Unfortunately, the need to obtain recommendation letters from supervisors generally discourages externs from providing honest feedback and just perpetuates a system in which abuses continue unchecked. My supervisor's behavior has certainly not reached the level of abuse, but his behavior has been distressing enough to make me dread coming to work and to lose confidence in my abilities. That is not acceptable and does not belong in a healthy supervisor/supervisee relationship.
 
I am a little curious as to why you are so focused on my behavior in this situation.... To be honest, it makes me wonder whether you have received negative feedback from individuals you supervised and found it to be unjustified.

Nope. But, this is another example of what I perceived in the original post.
 
You are absolutley right, feedbackninja. There is no excuse for unprofessional and rude behavior. My impression is that you read some of the other threads that also brought up unethical and unprofessional supervisors and was looking for some support. I'm a little surprised then that people viewed this situation different than some of the others. Yeah, sure, this person isn't make feedbackninja work more hours than the contract states, sure he is providing actual training and not sitting in his office, but if somebody is demeaning to you on a consistent basis you won't get much out of the experience. If a person loses confidence, hates coming to work, it will be hard to really retain that information. And that ultimatley impacts the training.
 
Nope. But, this is another example of what I perceived in the original post.

And that is....? I simply asked a question based on your unique focus in your response. If you take a look at the posts made by other members, I think you will find that your response stands out. I was merely trying to determine the reason why.
 
You are absolutley right, feedbackninja. There is no excuse for unprofessional and rude behavior. My impression is that you read some of the other threads that also brought up unethical and unprofessional supervisors and was looking for some support. I'm a little surprised then that people viewed this situation different than some of the others. Yeah, sure, this person isn't make feedbackninja work more hours than the contract states, sure he is providing actual training and not sitting in his office, but if somebody is demeaning to you on a consistent basis you won't get much out of the experience. If a person loses confidence, hates coming to work, it will be hard to really retain that information. And that ultimatley impacts the training.

Thank you for your support. Your post made me think of something that my therapist mentioned when I spoke with her about this matter. It appears as if the culture surrounding our training has started to become more and more like that seen in medicine. Not only are trainees seen as little more than free labor at many training sites, there is also a general acceptance of mild to moderate "hazing."

It seems as though our profession has accepted that in order to progress through graduate school, you will have to sacrifice, to a greater or lesser extent depending on the program, your physical and mental well being. Having poor training experiences, being degraded by advisors, becoming physically ill due to excessive demands on your time are all seen as unfortunate, but not unusual aspects of the graduate school experience. And when something becomes the status quo, it becomes difficult to obtain support in fighting all but the most egregious cases (and, as threads on this forum have demonstrated, sometimes it isn't possible even then).

I think this attitude is particularly exemplified in the common responses that I, and other students I have known, have received in response to complaints about negligent/derogatory supervisors: "This is a wonderful opportunity for you to learn how to work with difficult people." or "This will provide excellent material for your internship applications."

Why? Why is it the student's responsibility to find some value in what is otherwise an inadequate or outright abusive training experience? Why has it become so unacceptable to hold externship sites to their promise of providing a safe and educational environment in which to train? Why is it the student's responsibility, rather than that of the supposedly more intelligent and more experienced adult supervisor's responsibility, to find a way to make the relationship work? And when exactly did expecting to be treated with basic human decency become unreasonable?

Most of these externships are unpaid. The ONLY reason students are sacrificing 10/20/30/40 hours of their time at these sites every week is to obtain the experience, training, and supervision necessary to become a clinical psychologist. If even one of those things are not being provided, or the work environment is so toxic that it prevents learning or damages the student's mental/physical health, then the externship site has failed to hold up their end of the bargain. And that makes it THEIR responsibility to cure that breach in contract, NOT the students.
 
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I'm a little surprised then that people viewed this situation different than some of the others. Yeah, sure, this person isn't make feedbackninja work more hours than the contract states, sure he is providing actual training and not sitting in his office, but if somebody is demeaning to you on a consistent basis you won't get much out of the experience. If a person loses confidence, hates coming to work, it will be hard to really retain that information. And that ultimatley impacts the training.

I don't think I agree. The stated problems were that the supervisor was critical about OP's input, and gave feedback that was "borderline cruel" (which I took to mean, "not quite cruel," as in being a jerk about things without actually being verbally abusive--if this was ACTUAL insulting behavior I think this is different).

Being disagreed with and contradicted is not a sign that either of the people in the interaction is wrong or stupid. I continue to think that this thread reflects an unhealthy interaction between a probably fairly poor supervisor who is interpersonally abrasive, and a supervisee who is overly sensitive to critique. And OP only has control over OP's behavior, and will certainly encounter abrasive people in the future.
 
However, just because I am capable of working with an unpleasant supervisor, does not give him the right to treat me this way. I am an unpaid extern who is providing my time and effort in exchange for training and supervision. If either one of those things are inadequate, I have the right to express my dissatisfaction. Unfortunately, the need to obtain recommendation letters from supervisors generally discourages externs from providing honest feedback and just perpetuates a system in which abuses continue unchecked. My supervisor's behavior has certainly not reached the level of abuse, but his behavior has been distressing enough to make me dread coming to work and to lose confidence in my abilities. That is not acceptable and does not belong in a healthy supervisor/supervisee relationship.

Most of these externships are unpaid. The ONLY reason students are sacrificing 10/20/30/40 hours of their time at these sites every week is to obtain the experience, training, and supervision necessary to become a clinical psychologist. If even one of those things are not being provided, or the work environment is so toxic that it prevents learning or damages the student's mental/physical health, then the externship site has failed to hold up their end of the bargain. And that makes it THEIR responsibility to cure that breach in contract, NOT the students.

I agree 100% feedbackninja. I imagine that this is an awkward situation to be in, and I commend your diplomacy about the whole issue. Regardless of whether this was "abuse" or not, there is a minimal level of professionalism that is expected amongst supervisors, especially given the nature of our field. I don't know what to tell you about what step to take to address/not address the situation, but I wish you luck and hope you keep us posted!

Edit: As a side note, your situation reminds me a lot of a colleague/friend. This person was an extern at a neuropsych outpatient setting. The supervising psychologist, who was very likeable, was hardly ever there so the post-doc did the supervision. My friend was pretty inexperienced with neuropsych testing, and received a general attitude of disdain and disapproval from the post-doc. I don't want to go into details, but this post-doc often made pretty mean remarks as well, and seemed to think supervision consisted of telling my friend to "read the manual" and then belittle her when she made mistakes.
 
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I'm curious why people think that talking to the post-doc directly is a bad idea. I mean, from my perspective, it might be a bad idea because there is a power dynamic, the fellow has the option to "rat" to the supervising psychologist, etc. That said, I also think that we don't actually learn how to give feedback well (particularly constructive/critical feedback) and it's admirable of the OP to even consider addressing the situation directly. Direct and clear communication is what we teach our clients (right?) and could also be a valuable training opportunity. So....why are folks thinking direct is not the way to go here (likely in conjunction with talking to the supervising psychologist)?
 
Got to say, I agree with MCP's advice here. You are going to get SV's that you don't agree with for one reason or the other. You will likely have to deal with this with colleagues/bosses/supervisors in the future. Here's where you can learn that sometimes you choose being "effective" over being "right." If there was some kind of abuse/ethical violation, that's one thing, but this just sounds like interpersonal conflict.
 
Yes, but it also sounds like suboptimal supervision. I would focus the report on that, but not just because he was abrasive, curt, or hurt your confidence/feelings in some way.
 
I agree 100% feedbackninja. I imagine that this is an awkward situation to be in, and I commend your diplomacy about the whole issue. Regardless of whether this was "abuse" or not, there is a minimal level of professionalism that is expected amongst supervisors, especially given the nature of our field. I don't know what to tell you about what step to take to address/not address the situation, but I wish you luck and hope you keep us posted!

Edit: As a side note, your situation reminds me a lot of a colleague/friend. This person was an extern at a neuropsych outpatient setting. The supervising psychologist, who was very likeable, was hardly ever there so the post-doc did the supervision. My friend was pretty inexperienced with neuropsych testing, and received a general attitude of disdain and disapproval from the post-doc. I don't want to go into details, but this post-doc often made pretty mean remarks as well, and seemed to think supervision consisted of telling my friend to "read the manual" and then belittle her when she made mistakes.

Thank you for your kind words. It has been a difficult situation, but I have done my best to manage it in a professional manner. It is a little freaky that you know someone who has had such a similar experience (down to the very area of training!), and I would suspect I was the friend if you hadn't mentioned it was in an outpatient setting! I will say that it has been suggested to me that there is something about the way in which neuropsychologists tend to view other areas of psychology (i.e. less biologically focused areas) that creates an environment in which these kind of relationship dynamics tend to thrive - similar to the dynamic seen between brain surgeons v. all other doctors. However, I hesitate to judge an entire group of people based on circumstantial evidence. Plus, I have personally met perfectly nice neuropsychologists, who have been fantastic supervisors. I will definitely update this post if/when this situation is resolved.

I don't think I agree. The stated problems were that the supervisor was critical about OP's input, and gave feedback that was "borderline cruel" (which I took to mean, "not quite cruel," as in being a jerk about things without actually being verbally abusive--if this was ACTUAL insulting behavior I think this is different).

Being disagreed with and contradicted is not a sign that either of the people in the interaction is wrong or stupid. I continue to think that this thread reflects an unhealthy interaction between a probably fairly poor supervisor who is interpersonally abrasive, and a supervisee who is overly sensitive to critique. And OP only has control over OP's behavior, and will certainly encounter abrasive people in the future.

Here's where you can learn that sometimes you choose being "effective" over being "right." If there was some kind of abuse/ethical violation, that's one thing, but this just sounds like interpersonal conflict.

So, would it then be your advice to never address an interpersonal conflict? Or is it the power dynamics in this situation that are influencing your response? While I am aware of the risk involved in addressing interpersonal conflict in a supervisory relationship, either directly or indirectly, in terms of my own professional advancement, I find it odd that psychologists are advising someone to ignore a situation that has created a toxic work environment. Keep in mind, that I have lived with this for almost 11 months at this point - this is not the impulsive reaction to a one-time interaction. The only reasons I am even considering providing feedback are 1) I no longer have to work with the fellow after June 30, 2) this fellow has no direct influence over future letters of recommendation (though there is certainly the risk of indirect influence), 3) based on where the fellow is in his own training, there is the potential he could gain something from the feedback and thus improve his supervisory style, and 4) considering how significantly his behavior has impacted me, I would feel disappointed in myself for failing to defend my right to work in a professional environment. As this conversation would likely take place in my last week of employment, and thus not affect my ability to work with the fellow and fulfill my duties, I am a little confused as to how this would be an ineffective course of action. Unwise, perhaps, but ineffective?

I would be curious to know if your advice would change if the situation dealt with a more concrete method of creating an uncomfortable working environment. For example, if I frequently noticed that my supervisor was visiting sites that promoted racial supremacy (through seeing his computer screen when visiting his office) and he made remarks about his weekend plans to see bands/authors/etc. associated with that movement, but none of the remarks were directed at me, would you also suggest that this is an opportunity for me to learn to deal with abrasive/offensive people? This would create a similar environment where I felt uncomfortable working with the individual and, depending on my race, I might infer that the fellow either thinks I agree with him or that I am inferior to him. While there are some issues in directly comparing this situation to my own, in both cases the fellow has created a work environment where I would feel uncomfortable working with him and may feel personally disparaged. If your advice would change, why? Is it because it deals with race, as opposed to my personal feelings of self-worth? Is it because there is more, and this is up for debate as I have emails documenting some of the fellow's comments, evidence of wrongdoing? Or is it because my determination of whether I have been personally disparaged/belittled is only valid when it concerns a topic that can be universally seen as inappropriate? And, if so, why doesn't my opinion carry equal weight in both situations? The feelings and outcomes, for me, are the same. Or is it something else entirely? I would be really interested to see your response.

I'm curious why people think that talking to the post-doc directly is a bad idea. I mean, from my perspective, it might be a bad idea because there is a power dynamic, the fellow has the option to "rat" to the supervising psychologist, etc. That said, I also think that we don't actually learn how to give feedback well (particularly constructive/critical feedback) and it's admirable of the OP to even consider addressing the situation directly. Direct and clear communication is what we teach our clients (right?) and could also be a valuable training opportunity. So....why are folks thinking direct is not the way to go here (likely in conjunction with talking to the supervising psychologist)?

I agree that it is a little odd that a group of psychologists are recommending to avoid communicating your feelings, but I think you are spot on with the reasoning as to why. There is an associated risk with going directly to the fellow, without involving the mutual supervisor, that could lead to professionally damaging results for me. I think, and other's can correct me if I am wrong, that speaking with the mutual supervisor alone is seen as less confronting for the fellow and increases the chance that the fellow won't see the need to lash out at me. In addition, my primary reason for wanting to address this with the mutual supervisor, rather than the fellow directly, is that I feel he would be more receptive to feedback passed along by his supervisor, rather than an extern he apparently despises.

Yes, but it also sounds like suboptimal supervision. I would focus the report on that, but not just because he was abrasive, curt, or hurt your confidence/feelings in some way.

I agree. I have no intention of mentioning the hurt feelings/decline in confidence to either the fellow or mutual supervisor. I think I would frame the feedback in terms of ways in which the fellow could enhance the learning experience for future externs, with a focus on providing positive feedback in order to ensure that the externs know to continue to perform tasks they do well in the same manner. I'm also debating whether I should mention something about communication (i.e. opening the lines of communication, being receptive to questions, focusing more on establishing a base of knowledge rather than using the Socratic method at the start of the externship), but I have the feeling that subject has a greater potential to go south.
 
I think you can and should discuss the problem with the supervisor (without holding on to a hope that his behavior will actually change).

I think that prior to that you should discuss with a mentor working with people you do not get along with (a super useful and important conversation for developing professionals) as well as your personal reaction to getting negative feedback. Even here you reacted to my suggestion that it's an interaction problem by hearing me saying that it's your fault and assuming I have some weird transferential reaction. That is not a healthy response to people disagreeing with you. Having that convo with your mentor will probably make the conversation with the supervisor go better
 
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Even here you reacted to my suggestion that it's an interaction problem by hearing me saying that it's your fault and assuming I have some weird transferential reaction. That is not a healthy response to people disagreeing with you. Having that convo with your mentor will probably make the conversation with the supervisor go better

Your initial reaction was not at all normal.
 
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I think you can and should discuss the problem with the supervisor (without holding on to a hope that his behavior will actually change).

I think that prior to that you should discuss with a mentor working with people you do not get along with (a super useful and important conversation for developing professionals) as well as your personal reaction to getting negative feedback. Even here you reacted to my suggestion that it's an interaction problem by hearing me saying that it's your fault and assuming I have some weird transferential reaction. That is not a healthy response to people disagreeing with you. Having that convo with your mentor will probably make the conversation with the supervisor go better

I think that my reaction to your post was not based on your suggestion that it is an interaction problem (and, in fact, I think I acknowledged at some point that this situation certainly was influenced by personality characteristics), but rather that you seemed to view my behavior as the source of that interaction problem instead of acknowledging the fellow's contribution. In addition, your insistence that I should discuss this with a mentor to figure out how to work with difficult people was based on the assumption that I do not know how to do so.....despite my statements to the contrary. I realize that you do not know me, and thus cannot personally verify those statements, but I find it odd that you would not, for the purposes of this discussion, accept my assertion. Particularly considering that I have provided you with no evidence to the contrary (aside from my apparently unreasonable reaction to your prior statements). Combined with your initial stance that I should not discuss this with the fellow or our mutual supervisor, I was at loss as to what you expected me to gain from this conversation with a mentor. As I've previously stated, I've already discussed this situation with multiple people and have dealt with it effectively for 11 months. The only purpose of this thread was to determine whether and how I should provide feedback regarding my externship experience.
 
Still with MCP on this one. And just more convinced now that it's some interpersonal interaction. Things are rarely one-sided. We've seen it. I think he was giving good advice on how to be diplomatic about the situation, and then he got jumped on for being unreasonable somehow. The thing is, we are wary about giving unilateral support one way or the other. On here people are always the victim, sometimes justified, sometimes, probably not. We understand that. MCP was merely giving advice on how to handle the situation with that in mind (I assume). After all of this, I am only more convinced in his advice rather than the other way around.
 
Still with MCP on this one. And just more convinced now that it's some interpersonal interaction. Things are rarely one-sided. We've seen it. I think he was giving good advice on how to be diplomatic about the situation, and then he got jumped on for being unreasonable somehow. The thing is, we are wary about giving unilateral support one way or the other. On here people are always the victim, sometimes justified, sometimes, probably not. We understand that. MCP was merely giving advice on how to handle the situation with that in mind (I assume). After all of this, I am only more convinced in his advice rather than the other way around.

I have attempted to engage both you and MCP in a discussion on this topic. However, both of you seem content to merely restate your conclusions (which were initially based on....?) without providing any additional support or justification for them. As that is not advancing this discussion in any way, I will refrain from responding to any future responses from you both until that changes.
 
I think there is a good chance WisNeuro is that fellow you are reffering to, feedbackninja. LOL :D
 
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