PSLF

[WisNeuro]

Trump Calls For End To Student Loan Forgiveness Program

President Trump proposes to end this student loan forgiveness program.

www.forbes.com

Just remember folks, these programs are not safe. And, taking out six figure loan debt for a salary for most of you will still be in 5 digits, is a terrible proposition.

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[Sanman]

But Bernie is going to win and cancel out all of my student debt. You'll see old man. I'll get off your lawn once I hammer this Sanders 2020 sign into it.

 

[WisNeuro]

But Bernie is going to win and cancel out all of my student debt. You'll see old man. I'll get off your lawn once I hammer this Sanders 2020 sign into it.

You're not going to sic your army of digital Bernie Bros on me, are you? Keep your cancel culture off my lawn.

 

[psychlife19]

This is disheartening

 

[WisNeuro]

I actually think a gradual phase-out would be quite encouraging. Limit the availability of absurdly large loan packages, and you'll eventually see the diploma mills continue to fold, ala Argosy. Good for the field, and good for people making decisions about grad school.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Who is shocked?

*Crickets*

 

[attitudelikeasunrise]

As someone who unfortunately has large student loan debt, I absolutely support this. When I decided to take out these loans I was at an age when I had barely any life experience, let alone the financial knowledge to understand just how much money I was borrowing and how that would impact my future. It is actually one of the biggest regrets of my entire life and it would have been wonderful had the option never existed in the first place. With that said, if they are going to phase this out, they need to select a very specific end date and continue offering PSLF to anyone that chose to borrow money during a time when the program was still available.

 

[PsyDr]

Conflicted: I want to upvote this idea, but I don’t want to upvote Trump....

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Conflicted: I want to upvote this idea, but I don’t want to upvote Trump....

You and me both PSYDR...you and me both.

 

[MAClinician]

When is he going to propose canceling for-profit education and charter schools paid for by public money?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

He appointed the face of for-profit education....so prob not any time soon.

 

[psych.meout]

As someone who unfortunately has large student loan debt, I absolutely support this. When I decided to take out these loans I was at an age when I had barely any life experience, let alone the financial knowledge to understand just how much money I was borrowing and how that would impact my future. It is actually one of the biggest regrets of my entire life and it would have been wonderful had the option never existed in the first place. With that said, if they are going to phase this out, they need to select a very specific end date and continue offering PSLF to anyone that chose to borrow money during a time when the program was still available.

Isn't this a bit self-serving?

 

[attitudelikeasunrise]

Isn't this a bit self-serving?

Editing my original post after I noticed the part you bolded...

I don’t see it as self serving at all, but rather upholding the original loan agreement and options for repayment. Many students’ borrowing decisions were predicated on the fact that this service was available and they would not have made the same decisions if it wasn’t.

 

[psych.meout]

Which part is self-serving?

That you have "large student loan debt" and are advocating for the end of PSLF to grandfather in people who accrued their debt before a specific end date, which would mean that your debt would be included in this.
Am I wrong about this?

 

[attitudelikeasunrise]

That you have "large student loan debt" and are advocating for the end of PSLF to grandfather in people who accrued their debt before a specific end date, which would mean that your debt would be included in this.
Am I wrong about this?

I suppose I don’t really view it as being “self-serving” because grandfathering in people is standard protocol for these types of programs. I just happen to fall within this group, but even if I didn’t I would still think that would be the proper course of action.

 

[psych.meout]

Ok, but why not end it now and only include people who have met the terms at this moment? Or those who have graduated?

Editing my original post after I noticed the part you bolded...

I don’t see it as self serving at all, but rather upholding the original loan agreement and options for repayment. Many students’ borrowing decisions were predicated on the fact that this service was available and they would not have made the same decisions if it wasn’t.

Borrowing decisions are predicted on lots of things. I'm sure many students from unfunded PsyD and PhD programs predicted their borrowing on getting really good internships, competitive post docs, and high paying jobs, but none of that panned out for them and they're stuck making master's-level provider money. Things change or don't work out the way we want them to. Why should the country be on the hook for the entirety of someone's >$100,000 debt, because >$0.01 of that debt was accrued when PSLF still existed?

 

[WisNeuro]

As much as I hate the program, I would advocate for the grandfathering option. When those people entered into the agreement, they entered in under certain contractual stipulations. To end it, they should not allow any new borrowers.

 

[ClinicalABA]

As much as I hate the program, I would advocate for the grandfathering option. When those people entered into the agreement, they entered in under certain contractual stipulations. To end it, they should not allow any new borrowers.

I’d be surprised if there was not some language somewhere about the there being no guarantee that the program would continue, was subject to funding appropriation, etc.

 

[WisNeuro]

I’d be surprised if there was not some language somewhere about the there being no guarantee that the program would continue, was subject to funding appropriation, etc.

I'd bet on that as well. I still feel like the original agreement should be honored and it phased out, rather than cut off completely. I know we live in a world where contracts are broken all of the time, but I'm still a fan of honoring what you signed up for.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I'd bet on that as well. I still feel like the original agreement should be honored and it phased out, rather than cut off completely. I know we live in a world where contracts are broken all of the time, but I'm still a fan of honoring what you signed up for.

Totally agree with you.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'd bet on that as well. I still feel like the original agreement should be honored and it phased out, rather than cut off completely. I know we live in a world where contracts are broken all of the time, but I'm still a fan of honoring what you signed up for.

That'd be my take as well. If they end the program, put a hard stop on new enrollments while planning to grandfather in folks who've either already taken loans, or have already graduated. And add in language on the pre-loan counseling all folks have to complete that specifically mentions the changes to PSLF and available re-payment plans (highlighted, bolded, and in flashing red font). IMO, it'd be acting in bad faith not to do so.

 

[Pragma]

Yeah PSLF was written with warnings that it was not guaranteed. But at the same time, all of their guidance documentation proactively tells you to make bad financial choices otherwise (e.g., pay as little as possible to maximize benefit by forcing you into income-driven repayment). Seems bad for them to consider pulling the rug out from other people without acknowledging the fact that they totally screwed those people over in terms of compound interest.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Yeah PSLF was written with warnings that it was not guaranteed. But at the same time, all of their guidance documentation proactively tells you to make bad financial choices otherwise (e.g., pay as little as possible to maximize benefit by forcing you into income-driven repayment). Seems bad for them to consider pulling the rug out from other people without acknowledging the fact that they totally screwed those people over in terms of compound interest.

That might be one of the biggest arguments against them suddenly cutting it off for everyone, including those already "enrolled." You can't actually qualify unless you're on one of the income-based payment plans. And to the best of my knowledge, if you deviate from the determined payment amount at all, it invalidates the payment; so you couldn't pay more even if you actually wanted to.

 

[Justanothergrad]

This is good. Hopefully it results in reducing bad training (and subsequently bad public service) that sharks on this sort of lending. Relatedly, I assume anything Trump does right that may get this right is likely a function of outlier probability or other self-interest

 

[Ollie123]

Even if they are legally covered, I generally support the government <not> doing dick-ish things like pulling programs when people might have chosen other options. Can and should are two different things.

That said, grandfathering people in is one way to minimize the inevitable dozens and dozens of lawsuits that would emerge from not doing so. Given how few people are succeeding in getting money from the program anyways, the cost of defending those lawsuits (even if successful) could easily outpace the loan amounts being forgiven anyways.

I like the spirit of the program (government subsidizing education for people who take public-sector jobs), but I think our current educational system is just not well-designed for programs like this. Reform first to wipe out the for-profit sector, then consider re-implementing something like this.

 

[Sanman]

I would be for a hard stop to accepting new applicants for the program and grandfathering in those that have already started down the path of PSLF. That said, I doubt that this will happen and given how poorly the program has been run thus far. I wish they would just allow for realistic reform, but that will never happen ( lower the interest rates to market rate and keep the standard and one income-based plan, done).

 

[Sanman]

You're not going to sic your army of digital Bernie Bros on me, are you? Keep your cancel culture off my lawn.

No, but I have sent a group of old Jewish men (who spit when they talk) to your house. The good news, they have bagels and schmear.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Good NYC bagels, right? If they don't use the right water, it'll produce a sub-standard bagel, and that's just not okay.

 

[Sanman]

Good NYC bagels, right? If they don't use the right water, it'll produce a sub-standard bagel, and that's just not okay.

Of course good NYC area bagels (the best bagel places lie in the outer boroughs and Long Island, IMO). How else am I going to bribe old Jewish men?

 

[calimich]

and a short success story

Public Service Loan Forgiveness – Success!

There was no way for me to become a psychologist without taking out student loans, so my first day of graduate school was a blend of exhilaration about pursuing my vocational calling and dread over…

www.gradpsychblog.org

 

[WisNeuro]

and a short success story

Public Service Loan Forgiveness – Success!

There was no way for me to become a psychologist without taking out student loans, so my first day of graduate school was a blend of exhilaration about pursuing my vocational calling and dread over…

www.gradpsychblog.org

It starts out....not good. Pretty much saying, "the only way for me to become a psychologist" was to attend a very expensive unfunded program. Which, is the problem with a great many people. They see it as the only path to get where they want, which is categorically false for a majority of those people.

 

[calimich]

... which is categorically false for a majority of those people.

source? or is this an opinion?

 

[WisNeuro]

source? or is this an opinion?

Just a fact. There are dozens upon dozens of fully funded programs. People choose to restrict themselves in a variety of ways, such as not being willing to move, not willing to take a year or the time to get research experience, etc. These are all choices. Some of the choices you make, make it easier down the road, some make it harder. There are many ways to become a psychologist, some simply choose the easier, but more expensive way.

 

[calimich]

People choose to restrict themselves in a variety of ways, such as not being willing to move, not willing to take a year or the time to get research experience, etc. These are all choices. Some of the choices you make, make it easier down the road, some make it harder. There are many ways to become a psychologist, some simply choose the easier, but more expensive way.

Can we imagine scenarios where a person's choices (e.g., to move) are limited due to factors out of their control?

 

[thebalmofhurtminds]

Can we imagine scenarios where a person's choices (e.g., to move) are limited due to factors out of their control?

Of course. But there are always life things that are out of our control. Sometimes certain paths are either closed to us or just harder based on life circumstances. And sometimes that's okay. That doesn't mean that diploma mills are an acceptable option.

 

[WisNeuro]

Can we imagine scenarios where a person's choices (e.g., to move) are limited due to factors out of their control?

Mostly due to earlier choices they made, yes. Getting six figures of debt for a Phd/PsyD is a choice. Wanting to become a psychologist is a choice. The paths we take to get there are all choices, and there are many paths.

 

[Ollie123]

I can't say I have checked this, but I <believe> virtually every location with accredited for-profit psychology schools also has at least one reputable university program (often several). At least that is certainly my impression. I know many who were geographically restricted so went through the painstaking process of networking at said universities, building their CV, etc. until they were a slam dunk candidate for those programs. Usually because they knew they couldn't afford the for-profit schools or didn't think it would provide a quality education. Its the same thing with folks who do unaccredited internships because they "have to stay local." I would not be surprised if there are a handful of locations in the country where this could conceivably be the case (doctoral program but no accredited internships nearby), but that is not where we typically hear about it happening. What they usually mean is that they went to a questionable school, didn't work very hard there to stand out and have mediocre credentials even for students at that school, and aren't willing to put in the time/effort to overcome it or consider alternative paths to their goal. I know plenty of people who geographically restricted their internship applications. They didn't just go unaccredited, they busted their butts networking and built their CVs to target the local (accredited) sites where they could go.

That said, I'm genuinely happy for this person who made it work. Not everyone does and I think the current system has far more downsides than upsides.

 

[HeftyLefty]

Of course diploma mills and non-funded graduate programs are a big problem but I think some folks are forgetting how expensive undergrad can be. This was also the case for many in my fully-funded R1 program that have big debt. For example, I went to community college for 2 years, transferred into the largest state school in our state (which is not even an R2) had pell grants, and worked full time living in a crap apartment. For 5 semesters of tuition it put me in a 40k hole. Thus, even the "cheapest" options and a fully funded program can leave students in debt.

 

[WisNeuro]

We're not really railing against the 40-50ish k level of debt from undergrad. We're talking about those people who accrue med school level of debt from their unfunded grad programs.

 

[WisNeuro]

agree with wis that the issue under discussion is the med school debt for a psyd. But, I don’t really understand this. How does working, pell gran and 5 semesters =40k of debt?

Do people not know how to live like students anymore? That doesn’t sound like the “cheapest” of paths.

Wondering that myself, maybe in a high COL area? Just looked at current in-state tuition to where I went, 14.5k/year for residents of the state.

 

[Ollie123]

Uh

Of course diploma mills and non-funded graduate programs are a big problem but I think some folks are forgetting how expensive undergrad can be. This was also the case for many in my fully-funded R1 program that have big debt. For example, I went to community college for 2 years, transferred into the largest state school in our state (which is not even an R2) had pell grants, and worked full time living in a crap apartment. For 5 semesters of tuition it put me in a 40k hole. Thus, even the "cheapest" options and a fully funded program can leave students in debt.

Fair point. I'm not sure what the optimal solution is. Perhaps only forgiving loans up to a certain dollar value? Though that could be abused too. If we were only talking about 40k undergrad debts, the program would be a lot less concerning in many regards.

I could easily see 40k of debt from 5 semesters of undergrad. Depends where you are, but some state schools are closing on 20k/year even for in-state tuition. An average pell grant helps reduce, but not by a ton. Full-time minimum wage job could barely cover living expenses even with multiple roommates depending on what part of the country you are in, though I think choosing high COL areas is another common mistake.

All that said, even without PSLF, 40k debt is an extremely doable number on a psychologist salary. Its far from ideal and would still impact lifestyle and/or retirement savings for many, but its doable. 100k undergrad + 200k grad....Ramen needs to become a permanent lifestyle rather than a stopgap.

 

[foreverbull]

Some folks have mentoring/closer relationships with faculty at the undergraduate level and are told to steer clear of certain programs; others are stumbling through on their own without support. Many students I’ve worked with simply do not know the information we know in here after the fact, although I now make a point to share this information to students who will pursue graduate school. Yes, self-educating is important and critical in this process, but it doesn’t replace mentorship, which is what many students lack when they’re looking at grad schools. That’s only one factor of many involved in the process of decision-making.

I steer students away from unfunded and expensive programs as much as I can, but cost-of-living in some areas negates some of the debt savings in PhD programs. As I’ve said before, I was in a mostly funded program in a metro area, had a roommate, lived frugally, and accrued beyond the $40k mentioned before (some from my master’s). This was not because I lived far beyond my means, but because my stipend was extremely low and didn’t cover a few credits of my tuition every semester and none covered during internship or summers (despite being required to take a course for a few summers), on top of living in a bigger city. Things like car repairs, moving for internship, books, etc. had to be done completely via loans because I had no savings. Meanwhile tuition was rising beyond inflation each year at a public university while the stipend didn’t.

PSLF was created for folks like me and all of us to perform service in a way for a decade and to not suffer from the massive burden of loan debt for the rest of our lives. I appreciate the spirit of the program. If it is removed or phased out, I want to see viable alternatives for folks if loans are capped who are struggling to get by even in mostly or fully funded programs, and I’d like to see the unfunded programs to be forced to offer more funding and perhaps reduce their cohorts to do so. At the same time, I wonder if our students of color may be further disadvantaged by these changes, so that’s something I’d want to look into as well.

We tend to see these issues in black and white, but there are other factors at play, as well.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm for any loan repayment program that does not use my tax dollars.