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WisNeuro

WisNeuro

Board Certified in Clinical Neuropsychology
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For those who view this as their panacea for skyhigh tuition at unfunded programs...

www.forbes.com

GOP May Cut Off Student Loan Forgiveness For 4.8 Million Healthcare Workers

Republican lawmakers in Congress are considering a move that could cut off student loan forgiveness for millions of healthcare workers.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com
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the success rate is ~3%.

It’s literally smarter to take out a six figure personal loan, go to Vegas, and put it all on black.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
If you are working as an actual state employee and your hospital system is a part of said state system, doubt this will apply….hence “public service.” We had a woman transfer from her 501c hospital though for fear of this just 2 weeks ago. If you’re not in an actual government institution, yeah they’re gonna try to limit this as much as possible.
 
nibhighfootballrules said:
The success rate for completion of PSLF? Just due to government inefficiencies?
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It's not because of "government inefficiency". People do not pour over the requirements, in a manner consistent with the amount of money at risk.

Few applicant actually qualify. Of those qualifying applicants, most fail because they do not complete ALL the paperwork (59%), and do not make ALL required payments (26%). Even one missed payment, one missed signature... done.

If I didn't sign my tax return, and incurred legal problems, it would be silly of me to blame my mistake on a "government inefficiency".
 
PsyDr said:
It's not because of "government inefficiency". People do not pour over the requirements, in a manner consistent with the amount of money at risk.

Few applicant actually qualify. Of those qualifying applicants, most fail because they do not complete ALL the paperwork (59%), and do not make ALL required payments (26%). Even one missed payment, one missed signature... done.

If I didn't sign my tax return, and incurred legal problems, it would be silly of me to blame my mistake on a "government inefficiency".
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interesting, I wasn't aware that the process was so complicated that people routinely make mistakes that disqualify them. I'd imagine if you were trying to get thousands of dollars in loans forgiven you would do your due diligence to make sure all appropriate steps are completed.
 
Sanman said:
I'd just take out the personal loan, pay of the student loans, and then declare bankruptcy.
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Someone I knew in college couldn't get it together to fill out his student loan paperwork. He literally paid his tuition off a bajillion credit cards and somehow managed to do this for like 2 years before he hit limits and they started freezing his cards. Eventually utterly demolished his credit and had to declare bankruptcy, but because this was credit card debt and not loans was able to get much nicer treatment of it in bankruptcy proceedings.

Still not sure if this was the smartest or dumbest thing I've ever heard of anyone doing.
 
BuckeyeLove said:
If you are working as an actual state employee and your hospital system is a part of said state system, doubt this will apply….hence “public service.” We had a woman transfer from her 501c hospital though for fear of this just 2 weeks ago. If you’re not in an actual government institution, yeah they’re gonna try to limit this as much as possible.
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The tax code part, yes. But it also sounds like they're probably just trying to get rid of the program altogether. Which makes sense, if their goal is to reduce the federal workforce (and PSLF was designed as a tool to entice people to join said workforce). Although if they just abolish PSLF, unlike the tax code changes, I have to think there'd be court battles if current participants weren't grandfathered in. Then again, if they get rid of the DoE, provide little incentive for private loan management companies to keep adequate records, and drag their feet in repaying companies for any forgiveness that's granted...
 
Ollie123 said:
Someone I knew in college couldn't get it together to fill out his student loan paperwork. He literally paid his tuition off a bajillion credit cards and somehow managed to do this for like 2 years before he hit limits and they started freezing his cards. Eventually utterly demolished his credit and had to declare bankruptcy, but because this was credit card debt and not loans was able to get much nicer treatment of it in bankruptcy proceedings.

Still not sure if this was the smartest or dumbest thing I've ever heard of anyone doing.
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Much like science, some of the best discoveries are sometimes accidental.
 
WisNeuro said:
nffe.org

Gutting of Federal Workers’ Pay and Retirement in Trump Budget a ‘Race to the Bottom’ for All Americans | National Federation of Federal Employees

Washington, D.C. – Today, the National Federation of Federal Employees (NFFE) strongly condemns the fiscal year 2020 budget proposal from President Trump that decimates pay and retirement security for…
nffe.org
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Private practice in a city of medium to low cost of living after graduation is just seeming more and more like the best plan.

I'll be amazed to see if any psychologists stay in a W-2 position after all of this, especially at the VA.
 
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PsyDr said:
It's not because of "government inefficiency". People do not pour over the requirements, in a manner consistent with the amount of money at risk.

Few applicant actually qualify. Of those qualifying applicants, most fail because they do not complete ALL the paperwork (59%), and do not make ALL required payments (26%). Even one missed payment, one missed signature... done.

If I didn't sign my tax return, and incurred legal problems, it would be silly of me to blame my mistake on a "government inefficiency".
Click to expand...
A few years ago the successful completion rate was less than 1%. If memory serves, the government was credibly accused of making the application process impossible to understand and fulfill for the vast majority of borrowers.

I think it was never wise to trust the government to keep this program intact through multiple presidents and administrations. If the borrowers made a mistake, it was trusting that PSLF would be there for them 10 years after entering the workforce.
 
Thanks, I know this is a lot of hypothetical questions without any way of knowing exactly how it will play out but would it be fair to say IDR programs will continue to exist?
 
WisNeuro said:
In it's current form? I'd say there is little chance of it surviving as it stands. A significantly neutered version, maybe.
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I think the polio-riddled illiterate cave people of future America might be able to get their Trump University divinity degrees paid for.
 
[
nibhighfootballrules said:
Thanks, I know this is a lot of hypothetical questions without any way of knowing exactly how it will play out but would it be fair to say IDR programs will continue to exist?
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I don't think think you can assume anything is safe (and- honestly- no ever should have). One could easily argue that the current administration doesn't even want public colleges/universities (or even public k-12 schools) to even exists.

If you have loans or are planning on taking them out, all financial and career planning should be done with the assumption that you will be paying back the full amount plus interest on a 10-20 year (dependent on your age at graduation and amount you finance) standard repayment. As a more general rule, assume that taking out 6 figure loans for doctoral psychology training- regardless of any government or other aid-in-repayment plans- is very risky and should avoided at all costs.
 
Peacemaker36 said:
A few years ago the successful completion rate was less than 1%. If memory serves, the government was credibly accused of making the application process impossible to understand and fulfill for the vast majority of borrowers.
Click to expand...
PsyDr said:
Few applicant actually qualify. Of those qualifying applicants, most fail because they do not complete ALL the paperwork (59%), and do not make ALL required payments (26%). Even one missed payment, one missed signature... done.
Click to expand...

I would ask what percentage of psychologists didn't meet the requirements. Also, I can't speak to how the program was run in the 1900s (I have heard it was an absolute cluster), but the Biden administration made it very easy. If you can find the correct email address for your HR department (which they admittedly make stupidly tedious depending where you work) and your workplace's EIN (Googlable), that's all you need.

Again, don't know how it was before, but it is incorrect that of you miss one payment or one signature that you get dropped. The program specifically states that it requires 120 nonconsecutive qualifying payments. If you miss one, your total just stays at the same count it was, it does  not go to 0. A qualifying payment just means the minimum payment while working at a non-profit/etc. and that you're not in forbearance or a grace period. As for signatures, you just need someone to confirm that you worked at the qualifying institution for the months that you did. People recommend that you do this every year (maybe it was required before, but not now), but you could literally wait until your 120th month to do it. You just put the month you started working at the place in the online form and that's it. When the HR person confirms, all the months get added to your count, no matter how long ago you started.

I do hope this program sticks around. I'm not convinced anything will happen to it long-term, but no one can know what to rely on for this administration. As for EDRP, I'm pretty worried you guys are definitely ****ed.
 
markovnikoving said:
I would ask what percentage of psychologists didn't meet the requirements. Also, I can't speak to how the program was run in the 1900s (I have heard it was an absolute cluster), but the Biden administration made it very easy. If you can find the correct email address for your HR department (which they admittedly make stupidly tedious depending where you work) and your workplace's EIN (Googlable), that's all you need.

Again, don't know how it was before, but it is incorrect that of you miss one payment or one signature that you get dropped. The program specifically states that it requires 120 nonconsecutive qualifying payments. If you miss one, your total just stays at the same count it was, it does  not go to 0. A qualifying payment just means the minimum payment while working at a non-profit/etc. and that you're not in forbearance or a grace period. As for signatures, you just need someone to confirm that you worked at the qualifying institution for the months that you did. People recommend that you do this every year (maybe it was required before, but not now), but you could literally wait until your 120th month to do it. You just put the month you started working at the place in the online form and that's it. When the HR person confirms, all the months get added to your count, no matter how long ago you started.

I do hope this program sticks around. I'm not convinced anything will happen to it long-term, but no one can know what to rely on for this administration. As for EDRP, I'm pretty worried you guys are definitely ****ed.
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How can you have "heard" that the program was run poorly in the "1900s" when the program has only existed since 2007 and the earliest anyone could have received loan forgiveness was 2017?
 
psych.meout said:
How can you have "heard" that the program was run poorly in the "1900s" when the program has only existed since 2007 and the earliest anyone could have received loan forgiveness was 2017?
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Way back in the dark ages of the 1900s, we had to deal with this:

america online email GIF
 
psych.meout said:
How can you have "heard" that the program was run poorly in the "1900s" when the program has only existed since 2007 and the earliest anyone could have received loan forgiveness was 2017?
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My mistake. I have heard that it was very difficult to use a long time ago.
 
Has anyone heard anything about EDRP? Honestly the only thing keeping me from leaving these days...
 
psychedaboutpsych123 said:
Has anyone heard anything about EDRP? Honestly the only thing keeping me from leaving these days...
Click to expand...

Haven't heard anything specifically, but I'm pretty sure that this program exists under the discretion of the Secretary, so I wouldn't be incredibly optimistic about it's chances in the future.
 
Sanman said:
I think you are missing the larger point. The program has only existed a relatively short while and could easily be cancelled or changed in some way.
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Exactly. This isn't Social Security that has been around for almost a century and is frequently the only retirement income that most lower SES Americans have. PSLF is used frequently by professionals who are at least perceived to be affluent, so it would be easy for politicians to message that this program is a handout to rich doctors and lawyers on the backs of hardworking middle class Americans.

WisNeuro said:
Haven't heard anything specifically, but I'm pretty sure that this program exists under the discretion of the Secretary, so I wouldn't be incredibly optimistic about it's chances in the future.
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When you receive an offer of employment from the VA with EDRP, what is the phrasing like in your MOU? Is it contractually guaranteed and therefore less likely to be rescinded or is it phrased more conditionally and at the behest of the Secretary?

My work at the VA has always been in training and I don't have any debt so this hasn't come up for me.
 
psych.meout said:
PSLF is used frequently by professionals who are at least perceived to be affluent, so it would be easy for politicians to message that this program is a handout to rich doctors and lawyers on the backs of hardworking middle class Americans
Click to expand...
I'm glad you qualified the perceived part here. All of my colleagues in law who have had their debt discharged are making (at most) 70-80 a year (while starting out at 40ish) and have been paying for 10 (not including the covid pause). I do think the program as a whole is a great way to attract talent to STAY at these jobs for more than 2-3 years and then bouncing to make more money in the private sector.
 
psych.meout said:
Exactly. This isn't Social Security that has been around for almost a century and is frequently the only retirement income that most lower SES Americans have. PSLF is used frequently by professionals who are at least perceived to be affluent, so it would be easy for politicians to message that this program is a handout to rich doctors and lawyers on the backs of hardworking middle class Americans.


When you receive an offer of employment from the VA with EDRP, what is the phrasing like in your MOU? Is it contractually guaranteed and therefore less likely to be rescinded or is it phrased more conditionally and at the behest of the Secretary?

My work at the VA has always been in training and I don't have any debt so this hasn't come up for me.
Click to expand...

I should go back and read the contract for EDRP because I'm not 100% sure on that. I haven't heard much about it but since its a significantly smaller program than PSLF, I assume that's why
 
From the statute 38 U.S.C. 7681

"
As part of the Educational Assistance Program, the Secretary may carry out an education debt reduction program under this subchapter."

"may" appears often in this statute, leading to me to believe that this exists at the discretion of the Secretary. I imagine it'd get tested in the courts, but the language does not appear favorable to those in the program.
 
WisNeuro said:
From the statute 38 U.S.C. 7681

"
As part of the Educational Assistance Program, the Secretary may carry out an education debt reduction program under this subchapter."

"may" appears often in this statute, leading to me to believe that this exists at the discretion of the Secretary. I imagine it'd get tested in the courts, but the language does not appear favorable to those in the program.
Click to expand...
Ugh. Unsurprised and disappointed. Thank you for finding this!
 
WisNeuro said:
From the statute 38 U.S.C. 7681

"
As part of the Educational Assistance Program, the Secretary may carry out an education debt reduction program under this subchapter."

"may" appears often in this statute, leading to me to believe that this exists at the discretion of the Secretary. I imagine it'd get tested in the courts, but the language does not appear favorable to those in the program.
Click to expand...
That sucks for people who are depending on it and went through the efforts to get a position eligible for EDRP. This is why I always advise people looking to go to grad school that they shouldn't hinge their financial futures on debt forgiveness programs.

BuckeyeLove said:
I'm glad you qualified the perceived part here. All of my colleagues in law who have had their debt discharged are making (at most) 70-80 a year (while starting out at 40ish) and have been paying for 10 (not including the covid pause). I do think the program as a whole is a great way to attract talent to STAY at these jobs for more than 2-3 years and then bouncing to make more money in the private sector.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I also people in fields like law who worked or are working in the non-profit sector to get PSLF. Law has such bimodal pay and an even weirder structure of law schools, how people get into Big Law, etc. If you aren't in Law or don't know someone who is then it's unlikely that you understand this and are more vulnerable to the misconception that all lawyers are highly paid.
 
psychedaboutpsych123 said:
Ugh. Unsurprised and disappointed. Thank you for finding this!
Click to expand...

Just the messenger, man. If you want to dislike someone, dislike the admin acting like a bull in a china shop.
 
WisNeuro said:
From the statute 38 U.S.C. 7681

"
As part of the Educational Assistance Program, the Secretary may carry out an education debt reduction program under this subchapter."

"may" appears often in this statute, leading to me to believe that this exists at the discretion of the Secretary. I imagine it'd get tested in the courts, but the language does not appear favorable to those in the program.
Click to expand...
Don't give them any more ideas
 
Patwolvtrojanhusky18PsyD said:
Great, taking away just about the only incentive left to stay in the VA at this point 🙄. I am on my last leg here, this is exhausting.
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That is the point. They want to privatize the system. Why would they incentivize staying? While I have not lost anything yet, I imagine that whatever RTO plan they come up with will be effective in getting me out unless they happen to assign me very close to home. My guess is that they will pick whatever is the most painful though.
 
Sanman said:
That is the point. They want to privatize the system. Why would they incentivize staying? While I have not lost anything yet, I imagine that whatever RTO plan they come up with will be effective in getting me out unless they happen to assign me very close to home. My guess is that they will pick whatever is the most painful though.
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Just wait til they come after your pensions...
 
WisNeuro said:
Just wait til they come after your pensions...
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I have plenty of time for them to fix any pension issues or to request pension contributions back. Anyone under the age of 50 is likely to be leaning on TSP more anyway. The pension was more of a nice to have if the market underperformed.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, I don't know that many people were banking too heavily on the pension, at least folks hired within the past ~10 years or so. Even after 30 years, it'd still be what, maybe $35-40k/year? That's nothing to sneeze at, but definitely not enough to make me want to stick around for another couple decades if everything else goes to hell.

Although on the flipside, TSP is a refreshingly solid 401k-style option, and VA's match is at least respectable.
 
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