Psych Attending Getting Low balled?

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Can someone tell me how to do that, too? 'Cause I'm a board certified psychiatrist doing inpatient, doing nights, doing weekends, and that's not happening for me. This thread is making me sad.

So based on my job and on other jobs I know of in the city and nearby, a weekend of call (rounding two days, being on call overnight one night) pays from $3500 to $4k. A weeknight of pager call pays from $275 to $400. I've heard of $150/hour for rounding on the weekends for inpatient sites with no call.

I go in with my required rate and tell them, they don't tell me. Although I have done it twice unfortunately in most cases it is very difficult to obtain a marked increase from your present employer so it might require changing jobs. Isn't there a shortage of psychiatrists in your area? Do you get together and discuss this kind of thing? We do a lot of social networking so we share opportunities and keep each other abreast of the trends. The best positions I have gotten were directly due to insider knowledge of openings and salaries.
 
Can someone tell me how to do that, too? 'Cause I'm a board certified psychiatrist doing inpatient, doing nights, doing weekends, and that's not happening for me. This thread is making me sad.

So based on my job and on other jobs I know of in the city and nearby, a weekend of call (rounding two days, being on call overnight one night) pays from $3500 to $4k. A weeknight of pager call pays from $275 to $400. I've heard of $150/hour for rounding on the weekends for inpatient sites with no call.
When I was working in California's Central Valley, one of the other psychiatrists there told me he refuses to work for less than $200/hour. But that is a very undesirable area to live in.
 
Can someone tell me how to do that, too? 'Cause I'm a board certified psychiatrist doing inpatient, doing nights, doing weekends, and that's not happening for me. This thread is making me sad.

So based on my job and on other jobs I know of in the city and nearby, a weekend of call (rounding two days, being on call overnight one night) pays from $3500 to $4k. A weeknight of pager call pays from $275 to $400. I've heard of $150/hour for rounding on the weekends for inpatient sites with no call.

I would cut off my left arm to find one of these '3500 to 4k' weekend jobs. I literally was paid 500 bucks each weekend(not by the hospital but by a group who owned a contract with the hospital) to do this one weekend on a fairly small unit. I did that for about 6 weekends and just said "**** it, I want my weekends back". but for 2k(and definitely for 3500 to 4k) I would have worked my ass off over the weekend and baked that group brownies to leave after I left.
Here the people who either own the contract with the hospital to self-bill or the people who are employed by the hospital system(less common) do it. And it's part of their salary(they rotate) or they just look at it as another day of billing(they will rotate this too amongst the psychs/group). There isn't a market for individual psychiatrists to come in and get a 3500 check to show up and see patients.
 
So based on my job and on other jobs I know of in the city and nearby, a weekend of call (rounding two days, being on call overnight one night) pays from $3500 to $4k.
Doesn't $4K come out to be around $200/hour, assuming two ten hour days?
 
Fixed it for ya again...

I'd point you in the direction of a possible 3K weekend, but I wouldn't want to put your limbs at risk.

you fixed it unnecessarily since in that very same paragraph I already specified 'here'....which would of course refer to my area. Reading can be useful.
 
This thread again points out regional and individual variance.

For folks interested in maximizing professional opportunities (financial or otherwise), I'd recommend the following plan:
  1. Work hard to give yourself the best chances for choosing a medical school. Do a cost-benefit analysis to balance quality of the school with cost. Weigh this carefully, as more debt to attend a great school may be worth an extra $50K if it means better downstream professional opportunities. But there are definitely limits, particularly when comparing schools of somewhat similar quality.
  2. Decide where you would like to live post-residency when choosing a residency. A frequent comment on this board is from folks who are willing to "go anywhere" to train. Quality of residency is important, but so is locale.
    • Most folks will end up practicing in the area where they trained. Part of this is convenience and non-professional considerations, but some of this is the fact that you will have more opportunities professionally where you train. I constantly refer patients to individuals who trained in my program over individuals who have trained in what some might consider better programs. This isn't a school-pride thing: I know the quality of my program's education and can make a couple of quick phone calls to get a very real impression of who I'm referring patients to. You will always have more opportunities in the region in which you train.
    • Choose this locale based on the Big Picture. Consider professional issues (job opportunities, ease of private practice, types of employment, salaries, etc.) and personal issues (cost of home ownership, schools, outdoors/nature, local politics, culture, etc.). This can be harder to do when you're younger and pluripotent, but it's still worth inquiring. Your goal likely isn't to find the "perfect fit" but to avoid the nightmare locales. Some of the SDN posters talk about living in areas where there are essentially no good job opportunities within commuting distance. You can screen for this during interview and avoid these programs like the plague.
  3. Wherever you end up in residency, work like the employee you'd like to hire. Be curious, compassionate, and ethical. Work hard and smart. Collaborate with others. Search for solutions when you encounter problems. Have a good work-life balance and recognize that this cuts two ways (i.e., minimize bringing your work stress home and don't bring your home drama to work). Practice good medicine, good psychiatry, and good therapy. Be the person that others want to be around at times of emergency, stress, or emotional crisis.
  4. When you leave residency, continue Step 3 above in your work life. This is how you establish a reputation. This is how work comes to you rather than you scrambling to find work. This is obviously helped if you've made a good decision with Step 2, but regardless of where you end up, having a good reputation will maximize your chances at getting the pick of jobs that are available.
  5. Failing all else, move. Easier said than done for some, but it's always a possibility. You will end up in a new place, but one with better opportunities. Even with minimal contacts, you will find work. And you will slowly start to build a reputation.
There are modifiable factors and non-modifiable factors that will affect your professional opportunities. Focus on the modifiable ones. Be the kind of doctor people want to work with, work for, and hire and you will maximize your chances. If you continue to struggle to find meaningful and satisfying work, realize that the problem is not the field of psychiatry. Few psychiatrists overall complain about limited opportunities. If you feel this way, consider that the problem is with locale or the problem is with you.
 
Work hard to give yourself the best chances for choosing a medical school.

I don't agree with this at all.....the only examples in the real world where this may(and even then it's probably situation dependent) is if you want to do cash pay type work in certain urban areas or if you want to have an academic career of a *certain* type(and thats not going to be a way to maximize financial opps anyways). Since Im not interested in either of those or have any experience in either of those I won't comment on them....although I will note that it only applies to certain types of academic careers.

If you don't see yourself doing either of these two things, it shouldn't be a consideration at all.....if you want to do psych(and thats a big if). If you want to go into a more competitive field thats an issue I will defer to others in those fields.

But the way to maximize financial opportunities(again taking those two areas which I and most other psychs have little interest in off the table) is:

1) build connections in terms of establishing contracts with preferred hospital systems. And shoving competitors out to exclude them from those contracts. You want to have exclusive coverage(you and your group) of *high yield* patients, especially inpatients. And then trying to hire some of the providers who are blocked out of that arraignment and paying them a percentage of the total collections
2) build connections with local payers and getting better contracts if possible
3) building more efficient practice management tools(scheduling patients certain ways, culling low paying plans)
4) finding work that you get paid a flat X for Y and Y doesn't actually require many hours or for you to be there in person all the time so you can actually have different revenue streams going at once in the same time slot

Those things are ultimately going to determine whether you bust your ass for 540k or whether you bust your ass for 220k. Going to Stanford for medical school won't help you work on things 1-4 above any more than going to Loma Linda for med school will.
 
Doesn't $4K come out to be around $200/hour, assuming two ten hour days?

True. The $4k weekends though would include being on call over night at least one night as well (pager call with low likelihood of coming in though).

So the new free standing psych hospital + ED that's opening in my city is I think planning on paying around $125/hour for nighttime weekend work at least for the employed folks. Maybe they'll pay more for on call people?
 
I don't agree with this at all.....the only examples in the real world where this may(and even then it's probably situation dependent) is if you want to do cash pay type work in certain urban areas or if you want to have an academic career of a *certain* type(and thats not going to be a way to maximize financial opps anyways).
This s the short-sighted view that I’d recommend people avoid.

I am not a prestige-hound. But slacking to do the bare minimum to get into ANY medical school will give you the fewest opportunities for medical school. More opportunities >>> fewer opportunities. Always. With fewer opportunities, you will be forced into geographical locales that do not suit you and that may become more permanent than expected (due to either unexpected roots being established or your best match being your home program). With fewer opportunities, you will have reduced chances at going to schools that give you great exposure to psychiatry in a myriad of ways that will improve your chances at matching into the residency that most suits you. With fewer opportunities (and this is a big one), you will potentially be limited to the most expensive schools that will force you to be more focused on higher paying jobs than otherwise.

There is no downside and many upsides to having choices for medical school.

None of your tips that you mention are in any way hampered by working hard and smart to maximize your professional opportunities. You can, of course, put in minimal effort and go to a mediocre and/or expensive medical school, limit yourself to a handful of ho-hum residency choices in geographic regions of dubious opportunity, and then scrambling to work the system to squeeze blood out of a turnip. But with some forethought and hard work, you can largely avoid it and have a much more satisfying career.
Those things are ultimately going to determine whether you bust your ass for 540k or whether you bust your ass for 220k. Going to Stanford for medical school won't help you work on things 1-4 above any more than going to Loma Linda for med school will.
Again, don't get hung up on the prestige thing (helpful mostly for cash private practice and academics). The benefit of Stanford is the local contacts you make and the reputation you develop for when you want to develop a career in the Silicon Valley.

What you want to avoid is getting trapped in a market where you are scrambling to piece together a semblance of a paycheck. If you're busting ass to make a paycheck that you think is poor, the problem is your locale or you. You can avoid limiting yourself to locale and you can have the opportunity for a more marketable you if you get good training, get good exposure, and develop a good reputation locally.
 
"Most folks will end up practicing in the area where they trained."

Why? Because most folks are driven in their choice of med school by the state of their residency, and the location of a residency program location by family/spouse considerations, not by the training or career opportunities after residency is completed. They choose a residency based on where they want to live after residency, and that has been the guiding force in their choice of medical school and residency location all along.

One can train anywhere, and then choose to live somewhere else, notwithstanding your belief that it puts one at a disadvantage. Any disadvantage is temporary, at worst.
 
"Most folks will end up practicing in the area where they trained."

Why? Because most folks are driven in their choice of med school by the state of their residency, and the location of a residency program location by family/spouse considerations, not by the training or career opportunities after residency is completed. They choose a residency based on where they want to live after residency, and that has been the guiding force in their choice of medical school and residency location all along.

One can train anywhere, and then choose to live somewhere else, notwithstanding your belief that it puts one at a disadvantage. Any disadvantage is temporary, at worst.

As it is right now, I think the psychiatry market is open enough that you can pretty easily relocate without any issues. However, you're reaching a time in life when you start residency that you might want to start putting down roots, so it probably makes sense to be open to staying where you trained. There are lots of jobs in my very desirable city for all sorts of people to come in.
 
One can train anywhere, and then choose to live somewhere else, notwithstanding your belief that it puts one at a disadvantage. Any disadvantage is temporary, at worst.
Absolutely, Psychotic. Your post and Doctor Bagel's are right on.

My interpretation of why most folks end up practicing where they train isn't so much that they are limited by where they trained but because of two main reasons: it is advantageous to practice where they trained and Real Life considerations.

You can train at an unknown community program and relocate to an oversaturated market and make a nice living for yourself. But it is much easier to do so training in that same oversaturated market. You know the market, you know the player, and (most importantly) either they will know you by the time you graduate or a phone call will have someone an employer trusts vouch for you. The more reputation you have, the more opportunities you'll have. A market may be wide open, but great opportunities > good opportunities.

And Real Life considerations are unpredictable and can be very strong influences. A new husband/wife/SO/partner. A new child. New passions. A lot of folks attend a residency with an intent to leave after four years and end up developing roots.

My post wasn't meant to imply that our field is limited, but the opposite. That if new folks are reading threads where people bemoan the lack of opportunities in psychiatry, these individuals are likely limited by themselves or their region. And if new folks are concerned about that, there are ways to mitigate both and I was hoping to make some recommendations for how to do so.
 
As it is right now, I think the psychiatry market is open enough that you can pretty easily relocate without any issues. However, you're reaching a time in life when you start residency that you might want to start putting down roots, so it probably makes sense to be open to staying where you trained. There are lots of jobs in my very desirable city for all sorts of people to come in.

I agree with you about putting down roots, and I am open to staying here, but I was simply offering a different way of looking at it from notdeadyet's perspective.

I was not interested in staying in the city, state, or region where I attended med school; I have no regrets about that med school - I was fortunate and had multiple schools to choose from. But I was glad to leave for residency. I was then and still am single and unattached, and have no roots where I am training currently. I interviewed at programs in the general regions of the country I was broadly interested in (south, southwest, mountain west, west coast), not with sights set on any particular state or city. With 2 years to go, I don't know if I will stay here or not. But I also don't feel limited in any way - I feel that the country is wide open to me.
 
With 2 years to go, I don't know if I will stay here or not. But I also don't feel limited in any way - I feel that the country is wide open to me.
It's a beautiful thing, isn't it? When I compare psychiatry to other medical fields in terms of the opportunity for relocation, it's really hard to beat. We are terribly understaffed, our existing labor pool skews old(er), there is increasing attention paid to the need to address mental illness, and we have a very low investment cost for starting a practice from scratch. Really not a bad place to be.
 
Absolutely, Psychotic. Your post and Doctor Bagel's are right on.

My interpretation of why most folks end up practicing where they train isn't so much that they are limited by where they trained but because of two main reasons: it is advantageous to practice where they trained and Real Life considerations.

You can train at an unknown community program and relocate to an oversaturated market and make a nice living for yourself. But it is much easier to do so training in that same oversaturated market. You know the market, you know the player, and (most importantly) either they will know you by the time you graduate or a phone call will have someone an employer trusts vouch for you. The more reputation you have, the more opportunities you'll have. A market may be wide open, but great opportunities > good opportunities.

And Real Life considerations are unpredictable and can be very strong influences. A new husband/wife/SO/partner. A new child. New passions. A lot of folks attend a residency with an intent to leave after four years and end up developing roots.

My post wasn't meant to imply that our field is limited, but the opposite. That if new folks are reading threads where people bemoan the lack of opportunities in psychiatry, these individuals are likely limited by themselves or their region. And if new folks are concerned about that, there are ways to mitigate both and I was hoping to make some recommendations for how to do so.

I don't disagree that there is an advantage when making that first transition to a job if you went to residency in that area. The major problems I have with the way you are looking at things from this perspective is:

1) the vast vast majority of people WILL NOT be practicing in Silicon Valley or even nocal, manhattan, or in a quaint office in beacon hill. Is there some plausible scenario whereby one would benefit from busting their ass in college so they could get into the best medical school they can so they would have a somewhat better chance of training at ucsf which may help them in their transition to working in San Francisco? Sure. But even for the small percentage of people this(or pick 2-3 other cities) this would apply to, there a still a ton of ifs and maybes in even that scenario.
2) the time between starting medical school and finishing a psych residency is 8 years. A lot if us don't know what city we even want to live in 8 years. I didn't. Furthermore, after I finished I visited a number of different hospitals and was offered positions in many different cities several hundred miles away from where I trained or went to med school. Now these weren't San Francisco, Manhattan, etc but I didn't want to live there anyways. They were bigger than the area I live now and they didn't have a problem that I wasn't local.
3) the biggest advantage for applying for any job(not just psych) is that someone who has roots in the area is more likely to be really committed and be a more valued long term employee than someone who is just sort of bouncing around. That's just common sense.

Finally, I will add that it IS important to have as many med school options as possible. But not because it will Definately be of great benefit to a psych career later on. Simply because it's 4 years of your life and you want to be where you want to be. I was fortunate enough to have several options and chose the option that saved me a ton of student loan money relative to the option I likely would have had to take were my grades or scores or whatever a little lower. I'm thankful for that.
 
There is no downside and many upsides to having choices for medical school.
The two best options for med school as far as I'm concerned are state schools and private schools with $$endowment. People should maximize their chances of getting at least one of those two options. I can't imagine paying $300k for a private school that ranks about the same as most state schools.
 
Top tier academic medical centers are well known for paying their young faculty far below their market value, especially if they are purely clinical (meaning, no chance at bringing in NIH money, getting tenure, etc). And at the creme de la creme institutions, the pay is even worse because it is an "honor" to work there. (starting salary for clinical track instructor in psychiatry is around $125k in our department... and they are way overworked... our dept is pretty open about this). People are often afraid to leave the academic milieu and become nostalgic for the intellectual culture, grand rounds, working with the experts, etc. If you are not going to do research, absent a specific skill set that is going to generate a lot of revenue for the department (ie, high profile forensic cases, cash only impaired physician evals, etc), you absolutely don't need money at all (ie, rich spouse so you can set your own work hours), or you intend to apply for a forensics/CAP fellowship eventually (equivalent to IM people doing a hospitalist year- the other psych fellowships are wortheless btw), starting off as clinical faculty in academia is a rather poor decision... unless you absolutely are incapable of practicing medicine without teaching.

Are you saying that they pay researchers more? So something is right in this world?? Usually the sacrifice is the other way around. Usually researchers make nothing and clinicians rake it in. Yet it's researchers who move knowledge forward, and personally I think that's of value.

But what's with the cash only impaired physician evals?? Anyone hack can do those. Look, you can set up a consultation business in your garage doing those things. They're easy.
 
Are you saying that they pay researchers more? So something is right in this world?? Usually the sacrifice is the other way around. Usually researchers make nothing and clinicians rake it in. Yet it's researchers who move knowledge forward, and personally I think that's of value.

But what's with the cash only impaired physician evals?? Anyone hack can do those. Look, you can set up a consultation business in your garage doing those things. They're easy.

nice troll.
 
nice troll.

Was it? I wouldn't have spoken nearly as bluntly as nancy(which is rare for me I guess) but the types doing these evals across the country(while many are good) often do fit a profile/skill level close to what she describes. I suppose the counter is that "but they are experts in their field" but my counter to that would be that I'm not sure excellent clinicians in other fields(including psychiatry and psychology and occupational medicine and such) wouldn't be a lot more competent.
 
nice troll.

You're referring to my impaired physician comment? I wasn't trolling at all. I might have exaggerated a bit, and I could be wrong and there's more to these evals than I'm aware of, but I find it hard to believe that impaired physician evals are nearly as hard as we are led to believe (mainly by a small handful of academic gurus who have cultivated a big-time mystique around their own work and reputations.) I know because I do some occupational evals myself - granted not with physicians, but other professionals. I meet with the patients on their turf, and I produce a report. Hence, I really could do it in my garage if I wanted. There's a learning curve, but it's no worse than any other learning curve in psychiatry. So why people would think you have to be some academic big wig to do the evals, I don't know. Being a big wig helps with marketing, obviously, but isn't a prerequisite for doing the evals, or doing them well. And by the way, occupational evals are not always the same as fitness for duty evals. It's not exactly the turf of forensic psychiatry either.

What makes occupational evals hard is that the patients can be demanding, you have to be accurate and defend your conclusions (so none of the usual psychiatrist hand-waving) and of course, there can be a question of public safety. What makes it easy is, there is almost no corner you can't document yourself out of. At least, so far, I haven't found one. There's no treatment relationship! How hard can it be?? As long as you understand that your job is to attempt to quantify risk, and as long as you acknowledge that any attempt at quantifying risk in psychiatry is always a mere guess, how can you go wrong? In the case of impaired physicians (which granted, I don't do) - you, as a psychiatrist would not be issuing that medical license, right? It's the state board that will be accountable. If you identify a risk - for example, that a surgeon is likely to relapse on alcohol, say - then I would think you just have to document how likely you think this is, and why. But you don't have to mitigate that risk, and you don't have to treat it. I think this makes it much easier than dealing with almost anything else in psychiatry, where you actually have to DO something.

I think it would be similar with sex offender evals, and I have sometimes thought about trying to do some of those. They pay well, no one wants to do them, and the answer is always the same at some level - "yes there is a risk this offender will reoffend. It cannot be precisely quantified." I know I'm oversimplifying it, but you see my point? I'm also sure someone is going to respond to this saying, sex offender evals are the turf of forensic psychiatry - but in large parts of the country, there are simply not enough forensic psychiatrists to do sex offender evals. They're being done - by someone.

There are certainly going to be difficult impaired physician cases, and cases that are more appropriate for certain subspecialists, but all I was getting at was that you don't need to be ensconced in an illustrious academic fiefdom with residents and junior faculty fawning over you in order to DO evals like that.
 
You're referring to my impaired physician comment? I wasn't trolling at all. I might have exaggerated a bit, and I could be wrong and there's more to these evals than I'm aware of, but I find it hard to believe that impaired physician evals are nearly as hard as we are led to believe (mainly by a small handful of academic gurus who have cultivated a big-time mystique around their own work and reputations.) I know because I do some occupational evals myself - granted not with physicians, but other professionals. I meet with the patients on their turf, and I produce a report. Hence, I really could do it in my garage if I wanted. There's a learning curve, but it's no worse than any other learning curve in psychiatry. So why people would think you have to be some academic big wig to do the evals, I don't know. Being a big wig helps with marketing, obviously, but isn't a prerequisite for doing the evals, or doing them well. And by the way, occupational evals are not always the same as fitness for duty evals. It's not exactly the turf of forensic psychiatry either.

What makes occupational evals hard is that the patients can be demanding, you have to be accurate and defend your conclusions (so none of the usual psychiatrist hand-waving) and of course, there can be a question of public safety. What makes it easy is, there is almost no corner you can't document yourself out of. At least, so far, I haven't found one. There's no treatment relationship! How hard can it be?? As long as you understand that your job is to attempt to quantify risk, and as long as you acknowledge that any attempt at quantifying risk in psychiatry is always a mere guess, how can you go wrong? In the case of impaired physicians (which granted, I don't do) - you, as a psychiatrist would not be issuing that medical license, right? It's the state board that will be accountable. If you identify a risk - for example, that a surgeon is likely to relapse on alcohol, say - then I would think you just have to document how likely you think this is, and why. But you don't have to mitigate that risk, and you don't have to treat it. I think this makes it much easier than dealing with almost anything else in psychiatry, where you actually have to DO something.

I think it would be similar with sex offender evals, and I have sometimes thought about trying to do some of those. They pay well, no one wants to do them, and the answer is always the same at some level - "yes there is a risk this offender will reoffend. It cannot be precisely quantified." I know I'm oversimplifying it, but you see my point? I'm also sure someone is going to respond to this saying, sex offender evals are the turf of forensic psychiatry - but in large parts of the country, there are simply not enough forensic psychiatrists to do sex offender evals. They're being done - by someone.

There are certainly going to be difficult impaired physician cases, and cases that are more appropriate for certain subspecialists, but all I was getting at was that you don't need to be ensconced in an illustrious academic fiefdom with residents and junior faculty fawning over you in order to DO evals like that.

I was more referring to your the former part of your response, but I actually agree with you. I agree that the actual skill involved in evaluating the impaired physician is not that great and can be easily performed by a solid psychiatrist. Even the ASAM criteria can be learned over a weekend. However, as most states have PHPs, the evaluating physician has to have some kind of credibility with the state PHP and possibly the state board as well. This is not hard to establish (prob just need to join state addiction medicine society and get to know certain people/be a member of ASAM), but again, most psychiatrists don't really think about this on their agenda of things they want to do. Also, some psychiatrists who don't do these regularly might have some reservations (though they are indeed fully capable from a professional skillset perspective) because another physician is involved, especially if it is a faculty member at his or her institution.

Nevertheless, charging $1500 cash only for an eval that not many people want to do could make someone look reasonably productive and inch forward towards guaranteeing academic job security
 
Nevertheless, charging $1500 cash only for an eval that not many people want to do could make someone look reasonably productive and inch forward towards guaranteeing academic job security

That's a really low rate. I see professionals (granted non-medical, but where there's still a licensing issue, and a career at stake) on a one-time basis, and $1500 is my absolute starting rate. (Even at that, however, for me, it's a lot of work. Eight hours at least.) For cases that are anything beyond simple, I charge an hourly rate, which for most cases, ends up vastly exceeding $1500. And I am literally a person who has burnt every possible bridge with academic psychiatry, and has no interest in returning So why the heck are the academics charging such low rates???
 
You're referring to my impaired physician comment? I wasn't trolling at all. I might have exaggerated a bit, and I could be wrong and there's more to these evals than I'm aware of, but I find it hard to believe that impaired physician evals are nearly as hard as we are led to believe (mainly by a small handful of academic gurus who have cultivated a big-time mystique around their own work and reputations.) I know because I do some occupational evals myself - granted not with physicians, but other professionals. I meet with the patients on their turf, and I produce a report. Hence, I really could do it in my garage if I wanted. There's a learning curve, but it's no worse than any other learning curve in psychiatry. So why people would think you have to be some academic big wig to do the evals, I don't know. Being a big wig helps with marketing, obviously, but isn't a prerequisite for doing the evals, or doing them well. And by the way, occupational evals are not always the same as fitness for duty evals. It's not exactly the turf of forensic psychiatry either.

What makes occupational evals hard is that the patients can be demanding, you have to be accurate and defend your conclusions (so none of the usual psychiatrist hand-waving) and of course, there can be a question of public safety. What makes it easy is, there is almost no corner you can't document yourself out of. At least, so far, I haven't found one. There's no treatment relationship! How hard can it be?? As long as you understand that your job is to attempt to quantify risk, and as long as you acknowledge that any attempt at quantifying risk in psychiatry is always a mere guess, how can you go wrong? In the case of impaired physicians (which granted, I don't do) - you, as a psychiatrist would not be issuing that medical license, right? It's the state board that will be accountable. If you identify a risk - for example, that a surgeon is likely to relapse on alcohol, say - then I would think you just have to document how likely you think this is, and why. But you don't have to mitigate that risk, and you don't have to treat it. I think this makes it much easier than dealing with almost anything else in psychiatry, where you actually have to DO something.

I think it would be similar with sex offender evals, and I have sometimes thought about trying to do some of those. They pay well, no one wants to do them, and the answer is always the same at some level - "yes there is a risk this offender will reoffend. It cannot be precisely quantified." I know I'm oversimplifying it, but you see my point? I'm also sure someone is going to respond to this saying, sex offender evals are the turf of forensic psychiatry - but in large parts of the country, there are simply not enough forensic psychiatrists to do sex offender evals. They're being done - by someone.

There are certainly going to be difficult impaired physician cases, and cases that are more appropriate for certain subspecialists, but all I was getting at was that you don't need to be ensconced in an illustrious academic fiefdom with residents and junior faculty fawning over you in order to DO evals like that.

Most of the people/centers doing these evals are not academic big wigs or academic centers even. I guess there are some cases where an academic center is on the referral list, but most of the centers on most state PHP referral lists are not university based. I agree with your overall sentiment though.
 
That's a really low rate. I see professionals (granted non-medical, but where there's still a licensing issue, and a career at stake) on a one-time basis, and $1500 is my absolute starting rate. (Even at that, however, for me, it's a lot of work. Eight hours at least.) For cases that are anything beyond simple, I charge an hourly rate, which for most cases, ends up vastly exceeding $1500. And I am literally a person who has burnt every possible bridge with academic psychiatry, and has no interest in returning So why the heck are the academics charging such low rates???

these evals are often done over 2-3 days at facilities like Talbott, Hazelden, etc and involve multiple people in on the eval. Typical cost is usually 5k or so.
 
That's a really low rate. I see professionals (granted non-medical, but where there's still a licensing issue, and a career at stake) on a one-time basis, and $1500 is my absolute starting rate. (Even at that, however, for me, it's a lot of work. Eight hours at least.) For cases that are anything beyond simple, I charge an hourly rate, which for most cases, ends up vastly exceeding $1500. And I am literally a person who has burnt every possible bridge with academic psychiatry, and has no interest in returning So why the heck are the academics charging such low rates???

Most of the people/centers doing these evals are not academic big wigs or academic centers even. I guess there are some cases where an academic center is on the referral list, but most of the centers on most state PHP referral lists are not university based. I agree with your overall sentiment though.

these evals are often done over 2-3 days at facilities like Talbott, Hazelden, etc and involve multiple people in on the eval. Typical cost is usually 5k or so.

Outpatient evals are not uncommon. My medical school's psych department has a big addiction treatment center that treats a lot of impaired physicians, and they would regularly have doctors come for 2 hour outpatient evals (first hour for the addiction med fellow to get the history/lab testing all done, next hour for the attending- though that part never took that long). I think the rates were $1500-2000 eval. The several day inpatient evals were obviously more.

None of the attendings in my current department do them (even the ones who do addiction), but one of the private psychiatrists in town (who used to be on faculty and is incidentally probably the most highly regarded psychiatrist in town) did/does them, but I don't think he charges much more than $1500-$2000- all outpatient
 
Outpatient evals are not uncommon. My medical school's psych department has a big addiction treatment center that treats a lot of impaired physicians, and they would regularly have doctors come for 2 hour outpatient evals (first hour for the addiction med fellow to get the history/lab testing all done, next hour for the attending- though that part never took that long). I think the rates were $1500-2000 eval. The several day inpatient evals were obviously more.

None of the attendings in my current department do them (even the ones who do addiction), but one of the private psychiatrists in town (who used to be on faculty and is incidentally probably the most highly regarded psychiatrist in town) did/does them, but I don't think he charges much more than $1500-$2000- all outpatient

it just depends on the php in your state.....when I worked at a big treatment center that did a lot of these evals(and as nancy said they are not hard....a ***** could mostly do them as everyone pretty much knows what the recs are usually going to be) all the state phps that were referring us patients wanted an inpatient eval.
 
I would cut off my left arm to find one of these '3500 to 4k' weekend jobs. I literally was paid 500 bucks each weekend(not by the hospital but by a group who owned a contract with the hospital) to do this one weekend on a fairly small unit. I did that for about 6 weekends and just said "**** it, I want my weekends back". but for 2k(and definitely for 3500 to 4k) I would have worked my ass off over the weekend and baked that group brownies to leave after I left.
Here the people who either own the contract with the hospital to self-bill or the people who are employed by the hospital system(less common) do it. And it's part of their salary(they rotate) or they just look at it as another day of billing(they will rotate this too amongst the psychs/group). There isn't a market for individual psychiatrists to come in and get a 3500 check to show up and see patients.

I make 4k+ consistently doing weekends and am getting sick of it. Not quiet sick enough to quit though. Get different state licenses and be willing to fly and you can find it.
 
I've been offered these weekend jobs. You'll have to fly to a different part of the country on weekends or drive a few hours. I'm not taking them. Maybe in the future but not now when my kids are at a vital stage where I don't want to miss them growing up.
 
I've been offered these weekend jobs. You'll have to fly to a different part of the country on weekends or drive a few hours. I'm not taking them. Maybe in the future but not now when my kids are at a vital stage where I don't want to miss them growing up.

But then where are these weekend jobs, and especially, where are the best ones, for those of us who don't mind flying every weekend? I'll fly to Antarctica qweekend if it means I can pay off my student loans faster.
 
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