Psych in the ER

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As I left my night shift yesterday, I signed out 4 different psych patients to the oncoming doctor. One had been there for 4 days, 2 for 2 days, and one was just there for 12 hours. I have to admit, I’m a little bit frustrated with Psych patients in the ER.

I can empathize, to a certain extent with the suicidal patient. As a painfully awkward junior high kid, I remember many times standing at the edge of a cliff and melodramatically imagining plunging off the edge. I can’t imagine the pain of many of the psych patients I see who have truly horrific lives, full of addiction, devoid of true love, barren of healthy friendships, and often absent true meaning.

I think we have made great strides in creating some tools to help with helping people feel more happy. There are some great meds (atypical antipsychotics) that have really helped to calm disorganized thoughts. Psychology has many fascinating insights that help us understand pathologic behavior and feelings.

However, as a whole, the professions of psychiatry and psychology are nearly absent in the ER. What do I have personally to offer in the ER? Some fatherly advice. A willingness to start an antidepressant, or an antipsychotic. A little pull with the local homeless shelter. However, this isn’t enough for the average person. They and their families demand more. Government tells us we owe them more.

Psychiatry and psychology operate as one of the most 9-5 professions in the medical profession. After a decade of being out of residency, I have laid eyes on a psychiatrist a grand total of one time in the ER. Psychologist? NEVER. NEVER. They act like it is an Ebola hot-zone. And so the patients wait. And they wait. The ignorant public cries for more funds to throw at the problem. But the Field of Dreams theme is ever so true that, “If you build it, they will come.” Any new psych bed seems to have 5 occupants vying for it. Any “Mental Health Professional” or whatever they are called in your state has a list of 5 patients who are waiting for them.

While I certainly see true psychiatric emergencies, my perception is that 90 percent of the “psych” in the ER is 50% addiction, and 50% borderline personality disorder. Neither of those diagnoses are generally amenable to forced outside interventions.

I have seen a patient frequently in the ER who is completely borderline. She loves big scenes. She called 911 and when the police showed up, she was holding a knife to her arm. They shot her with a bean bag breaking her hand. We cross a line sometimes as a society in dealing with psych patients. “First do no harm” philosophy in my mind conflicts with giving in to a borderline patient’s demands. We are harming them by giving in to their drama. The best thing in the world to do for them would to take them home and ban them from the ER as a consequence of their nonsensical behavior.

I admit I’m jaded by what feels like an avalanche of chronically suicidal patients, hitting the ER on a weekly basis. After hearing the five hundredth person say that they are suicidal in my career, it has stopped affecting me emotionally. It seems that we just give people a bed to lay in and food, and wait until the emotions wear off and they quit saying the “s” word.

I saw a patient yesterday that had been “suicidal” 40 times this year. He basically lives in ERs and psych facilities. What is worse, he’s a complete jerk about it. If you challenge him on his behavior, he escalates and starts accusing you of “not helping” him. He demands “treatment” but fails to follow up with psychiatry as an out-patient. He has counsellors assigned to him, but he doesn’t go. The problem is, I can’t blame him. I agree with the basic premise of this article:

http://europepmc.org/backend/ptpmcrender.fcgi?accid=PMC2625374&blobtype=pdf

I saw a patient last week who said she was suicidal. She couldn’t stop the negative thoughts she was having. What were the negative thoughts? She wasn’t pretty enough. (She was very far from ugly). She has an out-patient counsellor who after years, has still been unable to convince her that obsessing about her looks is unhealthy. I didn’t even try. Being more prone to stick my foot in my mouth, I would have probably said something offensive, but completely true like, “I’ve seen people WAY more ugly than you get married and be completely happy.” As I looked down at her med list, I was astounded by the cocktail of 6 different psychiatric drugs that would have given an elephant a permanent grin, even if it were ugly.

Some people just aren’t helped by psychiatry, just as some people aren’t helped by Buddhism, any one of the thousands of sects of Christianity, or a host of other philosophical paradigms. And yet, the government continues to encourage the continued tsunami of sad, crazy, and anxious to crash on the beleaguered shores of Emergency Rooms (where there are almost universally no psychiatrists or psychologists).

Telling everyone that you want to commit suicide seems to be the modern, accepted way to throw a tantrum. It’s an extremely manipulative abuse that happens so many times in modern relationships. You get everyone’s attention. They all tell bend over backwards to give you your way. I always want to whisper to the poor partner at the bedside, who is holding hands with the suicidal patient… “Run!”

I find the epidemic of suicide in Micronesia telling. Prior to the 70’s, suicide was virtually non-existent, far lower than Western countries. Subsequently, the rates sky-rocketed to rates double that of Western countries. http://www.nytimes.com/1983/03/06/us/micronesia-s-male-suicide-rate-defies-solution.html

Our modern society has had a similar pattern:

upload_2017-2-10_0-48-13.png


What is my point? I think that just as suicide is a behavior that is subject to epidemics, suicidal threats are occurring in the same fashion. The 60’s and 70’s were the golden era of psychiatry and psychology, with the legitimization of the fields and spending on treatments as a society that sky-rocketed. Did that prevent the tripling of suicide? Has psychiatry failed?

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/early/2016/05/13/hlthaff.2015.1659

201 billion dollars are spent annually in the US. Are we happier? More functional? Less crazy as a society? One shudders to think what would happen if the modern opiate of the people were taken away. I’m increasingly wondering why I’m even involved in the process.

What would I do different? I guess I would make detaining people against their will against the law if the reason is that they are a danger to themselves. If a loved one wants to stop them, fine, that is their prerogative. However, it seems to be unconstitutional to take away someone’s right to liberty if they are competent and want to kill themselves. We all are guaranteed the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. What if death is the thing that makes the most sense to you in your pursuit of happiness? There is an increasingly popular movement to legalize suicide in terminal patients. Is psychiatric suffering any less real than physical pain?

Once we got out from under the ridiculousness of restraining, sedating against their will, and physically assaulting patients in an attempt to “help” them, we could switch the procedure for psych patients. We currently spend billions on a useless bureaucracy of psychiatric assessment that does nothing for patients other than take away their rights and generate paperwork. In a different legal climate, every hospital could offer a psychiatrist and a psychologist to prescribe meds and offer counselling to those who desire it in a 9-5 fashion. No more of this sitting around for days, taking away a room for medical patients.

Regarding the psychotic, perhaps we’ve done some good in that arena. Or not. Consider the following graph:

upload_2017-2-10_0-47-45.png
 

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Just admit them to medicine so that they can sit on my list for days while the psychiatrist plays games with me while pretending to find them a spot.

Psychiatrist: "THE DC SUMMARY NEEDS TO BE DONE RIGHT NOW PATIENT IS BASICALLY ON THE AMBULANCE"

-DC summary done in 10 minutes so I can get them off my list asap.

-Patient transferred 7 days later.

:lame:
 
The acute and chronic management of serious psychiatric issues in our country is a horror show. And this post illustrates virtually everything that's wrong with it. As a med student I spent time at the Kings County Psych ER (on both my psych and ER rotations) and got to see people who basically lived there for months at a time between stints at home, halfway houses, inpatient psych facilities and jail.

4 of the 5 health systems in my town just opened a new inpatient/emergency psych facility (like...2 weeks ago) and I'm very curious to see how it works out. EMS and PD are now instructed to transport acute psych cases there. They have medical evaluation available in addition to psych (although I'm certain it's not BC EPs in there, at least it's somebody) as well as hospitalists on staff, and they are blocks away from a L1 trauma center if there are truly acute medical issues at play.

I have a couple of psychiatrist friends who work there are are excited about the model...but everyone is kind of holding their breath to see how it all plays out.
 
This is one of the areas where actual savings can be obtained in healthcare.
However, reforming it would be demonized and it will never happen.

Between this and reducing icu admits in the elderly crowd would save some serious $$ i bet.


Thumb typed on iPhone.
 
As I left my night shift yesterday, I signed out 4 different psych patients to the oncoming doctor. One had been there for 4 days, 2 for 2 days, and one was just there for 12 hours. I have to admit, I’m a little bit frustrated with Psych patients in the ER.

I can empathize, to a certain extent with the suicidal patient. As a painfully awkward junior high kid, I remember many times standing at the edge of a cliff and melodramatically imagining plunging off the edge. I can’t imagine the pain of many of the psych patients I see who have truly horrific lives, full of addiction, devoid of true love, barren of healthy friendships, and often absent true meaning.

I think we have made great strides in creating some tools to help with helping people feel more happy. There are some great meds (atypical antipsychotics) that have really helped to calm disorganized thoughts. Psychology has many fascinating insights that help us understand pathologic behavior and feelings.

However, as a whole, the professions of psychiatry and psychology are nearly absent in the ER. What do I have personally to offer in the ER? Some fatherly advice. A willingness to start an antidepressant, or an antipsychotic. A little pull with the local homeless shelter. However, this isn’t enough for the average person. They and their families demand more. Government tells us we owe them more.

Psychiatry and psychology operate as one of the most 9-5 professions in the medical profession. After a decade of being out of residency, I have laid eyes on a psychiatrist a grand total of one time in the ER. Psychologist? NEVER. NEVER. They act like it is an Ebola hot-zone. And so the patients wait. And they wait. The ignorant public cries for more funds to throw at the problem. But the Field of Dreams theme is ever so true that, “If you build it, they will come.” Any new psych bed seems to have 5 occupants vying for it. Any “Mental Health Professional” or whatever they are called in your state has a list of 5 patients who are waiting for them.

While I certainly see true psychiatric emergencies, my perception is that 90 percent of the “psych” in the ER is 50% addiction, and 50% borderline personality disorder. Neither of those diagnoses are generally amenable to forced outside interventions.

I have seen a patient frequently in the ER who is completely borderline. She loves big scenes. She called 911 and when the police showed up, she was holding a knife to her arm. They shot her with a bean bag breaking her hand. We cross a line sometimes as a society in dealing with psych patients. “First do no harm” philosophy in my mind conflicts with giving in to a borderline patient’s demands. We are harming them by giving in to their drama. The best thing in the world to do for them would to take them home and ban them from the ER as a consequence of their nonsensical behavior.

I admit I’m jaded by what feels like an avalanche of chronically suicidal patients, hitting the ER on a weekly basis. After hearing the five hundredth person say that they are suicidal in my career, it has stopped affecting me emotionally. It seems that we just give people a bed to lay in and food, and wait until the emotions wear off and they quit saying the “s” word.

I saw a patient yesterday that had been “suicidal” 40 times this year. He basically lives in ERs and psych facilities. What is worse, he’s a complete jerk about it. If you challenge him on his behavior, he escalates and starts accusing you of “not helping” him. He demands “treatment” but fails to follow up with psychiatry as an out-patient. He has counsellors assigned to him, but he doesn’t go. The problem is, I can’t blame him. I agree with the basic premise of this article:

http://europepmc.org/backend/ptpmcrender.fcgi?accid=PMC2625374&blobtype=pdf

I saw a patient last week who said she was suicidal. She couldn’t stop the negative thoughts she was having. What were the negative thoughts? She wasn’t pretty enough. (She was very far from ugly). She has an out-patient counsellor who after years, has still been unable to convince her that obsessing about her looks is unhealthy. I didn’t even try. Being more prone to stick my foot in my mouth, I would have probably said something offensive, but completely true like, “I’ve seen people WAY more ugly than you get married and be completely happy.” As I looked down at her med list, I was astounded by the cocktail of 6 different psychiatric drugs that would have given an elephant a permanent grin, even if it were ugly.

Some people just aren’t helped by psychiatry, just as some people aren’t helped by Buddhism, any one of the thousands of sects of Christianity, or a host of other philosophical paradigms. And yet, the government continues to encourage the continued tsunami of sad, crazy, and anxious to crash on the beleaguered shores of Emergency Rooms (where there are almost universally no psychiatrists or psychologists).

Telling everyone that you want to commit suicide seems to be the modern, accepted way to throw a tantrum. It’s an extremely manipulative abuse that happens so many times in modern relationships. You get everyone’s attention. They all tell bend over backwards to give you your way. I always want to whisper to the poor partner at the bedside, who is holding hands with the suicidal patient… “Run!”

I find the epidemic of suicide in Micronesia telling. Prior to the 70’s, suicide was virtually non-existent, far lower than Western countries. Subsequently, the rates sky-rocketed to rates double that of Western countries. http://www.nytimes.com/1983/03/06/us/micronesia-s-male-suicide-rate-defies-solution.html

Our modern society has had a similar pattern:

View attachment 214536

What is my point? I think that just as suicide is a behavior that is subject to epidemics, suicidal threats are occurring in the same fashion. The 60’s and 70’s were the golden era of psychiatry and psychology, with the legitimization of the fields and spending on treatments as a society that sky-rocketed. Did that prevent the tripling of suicide? Has psychiatry failed?

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/early/2016/05/13/hlthaff.2015.1659

201 billion dollars are spent annually in the US. Are we happier? More functional? Less crazy as a society? One shudders to think what would happen if the modern opiate of the people were taken away. I’m increasingly wondering why I’m even involved in the process.

What would I do different? I guess I would make detaining people against their will against the law if the reason is that they are a danger to themselves. If a loved one wants to stop them, fine, that is their prerogative. However, it seems to be unconstitutional to take away someone’s right to liberty if they are competent and want to kill themselves. We all are guaranteed the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. What if death is the thing that makes the most sense to you in your pursuit of happiness? There is an increasingly popular movement to legalize suicide in terminal patients. Is psychiatric suffering any less real than physical pain?

Once we got out from under the ridiculousness of restraining, sedating against their will, and physically assaulting patients in an attempt to “help” them, we could switch the procedure for psych patients. We currently spend billions on a useless bureaucracy of psychiatric assessment that does nothing for patients other than take away their rights and generate paperwork. In a different legal climate, every hospital could offer a psychiatrist and a psychologist to prescribe meds and offer counselling to those who desire it in a 9-5 fashion. No more of this sitting around for days, taking away a room for medical patients.

Regarding the psychotic, perhaps we’ve done some good in that arena. Or not. Consider the following graph:

View attachment 214534
Insurance, deinstitutionalization, legality. These are all reasons your seeing this overflow into ERs and prisons.

I'm not sure what magical thing you think a psychiatrist on a 9 to 5 schedule could do to ease this if they were in ERs. Let's also not forget the norm for most psychiatrists also includes call and/or weekend work.

I honestly think ER residencies themselves only do harm to future ER residents a disservice by consulting any and every psych patient to a psych service. Not only do these residents miss out on educationally they also clearly miss an empathetic component.

I could go on and on but all I can really say is I'm sorry a patient that is an acute danger to themselves or others is taking up a "medical" patient's bed.

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Insurance, deinstitutionalization, legality. These are all reasons your seeing this overflow into ERs and prisons.

I'm not sure what magical thing you think a psychiatrist on a 9 to 5 schedule could do to ease this if they were in ERs. Let's also not forget the norm for most psychiatrists also includes call and/or weekend work.

I honestly think ER residencies themselves only do harm to future ER residents a disservice by consulting any and every psych patient to a psych service. Not only do these residents miss out on educationally they also clearly miss an empathetic component.

I could go on and on but all I can really say is I'm sorry a patient that is an acute danger to themselves or others is taking up a "medical" patient's bed.

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I agree with your assessment of what is causing the influx of Psych patients into ED's. As for the rest of your post...

A board certified Psychiatrist could do a "magical" assessment and say "this patient reporting suicidal ideation does not require hospitalization" with the credentials to defend such a decision in court, should he or she turn out to be wrong once in a great while.

Yes, consulting a specialist on every case is a disservice to learning. However, this doesn't actually happen in most places. Either you work at a place with a crappy ED, or you suffer from selection bias because you only hear about the ED patients that get consults.

Speaking of empathy...
 
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Insurance, deinstitutionalization, legality. These are all reasons your seeing this overflow into ERs and prisons.

I'm not sure what magical thing you think a psychiatrist on a 9 to 5 schedule could do to ease this if they were in ERs. Let's also not forget the norm for most psychiatrists also includes call and/or weekend work.

I honestly think ER residencies themselves only do harm to future ER residents a disservice by consulting any and every psych patient to a psych service. Not only do these residents miss out on educationally they also clearly miss an empathetic component.

I could go on and on but all I can really say is I'm sorry a patient that is an acute danger to themselves or others is taking up a "medical" patient's bed.

Sent from my SM-G900V using SDN mobile
I think you misunderstand the angst. There is basically no other class of patient that can take up an emergency department bed for 2 days. Given that: many non-academic EDs have fewer than 30 (and many less than 20) beds and have bare minimum staffing, having 3-4 tied up with patients that require 1:1 care can significantly impact our ability to treat emergencies.

We deal all the time with patients that require days in order to stabilize their emergency medical condition. We admit them. Psych patients are the only class of patient that we are required to keep in the ED under our active, primary management for days at a time. Factor in the higher ED utilization by
1)psych pts with Axis II disorders
2) substance abusers in a pre-contemplative state
3) chronic stable psych disorders with acute social needs
1-3) make up the majority of what presents to the ED. Combined with an expected productivity that essentially excludes our ability to perform (without consultation) the required evaluation to safely disposition the acutely suicidal patient and I don't think our reactions to the dilemma are unreasonable.
 
If they have had a psych evaluation at my hospital within the past 7 days, I discharge them. I think it is defensible to document that they have gone from one hospital to another with the same complaints and multiple psych evaluations (by an an expert), then discharge the patient. I keep the ones who actually seem depressed/tearful, or ones who haven't had a recent psych exam. In Vegas 90% of what we see is related to meth/homelessless rather than actual mental illness.
 
I honestly think ER residencies themselves only do harm to future ER residents a disservice by consulting any and every psych patient to a psych service. Not only do these residents miss out on educationally they also clearly miss an empathetic component.

This is especially rich considering in 5 years of EM I have never seen nor spoken with a psychiatrist in the Emergency Department. They could very easily come do an evaluation, discharge patients from the ED, save the patient quite a bit of time, and help prevent people from coding in the waiting room. That is, if you could convince one to take call...
 
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I think you misunderstand the angst. There is basically no other class of patient that can take up an emergency department bed for 2 days. Given that: many non-academic EDs have fewer than 30 (and many less than 20) beds and have bare minimum staffing, having 3-4 tied up with patients that require 1:1 care can significantly impact our ability to treat emergencies.

We deal all the time with patients that require days in order to stabilize their emergency medical condition. We admit them. Psych patients are the only class of patient that we are required to keep in the ED under our active, primary management for days at a time. Factor in the higher ED utilization by
1)psych pts with Axis II disorders
2) substance abusers in a pre-contemplative state
3) chronic stable psych disorders with acute social needs
1-3) make up the majority of what presents to the ED. Combined with an expected productivity that essentially excludes our ability to perform (without consultation) the required evaluation to safely disposition the acutely suicidal patient and I don't think our reactions to the dilemma are unreasonable.
So if your hospital beds are overflowing you don't keep them in the ED?

Because that is what's happening with psych patients. Too many patients for too few beds

You do bring up 3 good points but all three of those can tie a psychiatrists hands as well. Especially if they are chronic admits that know what to say/how to play the game

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This is especially rich considering in 5 years of EM I have never seen nor spoken with a psychiatrist in the Emergency Department. They could very easily come do an evaluation, discharge patients from the ED, save the patient quite a bit of time, and help prevent people from coding in the waiting room. That is, if you could convince one to take call...
I'm sorry would you want to take call for half the market rate? Because that's what most hospital systems are offering a psychiatrist to take call.

Just because they aren't in your ED doesn't mean they don't take call

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The real problem is with the system. All of these psych patients should go to a psych facility immediately, not the ED. The whole "medical clearance" thing is a cop-out, and a way to dump the problem on the ER. They would be better served at a psychiatric ED where they can get an on-call IM evaluation if necessary for medical screening.
 
My favorite is the suicidal patient who received the vigorous review of systems from the medical student / intern only to reveal "chest pain." Now needs a useless ROMI as well.
 
My favorite is the suicidal patient who received the vigorous review of systems from the medical student / intern only to reveal "chest pain." Now needs a useless ROMI as well.

Or just document "no medical complaints" and don't mention the chest pain. If these psych patients can play games, so can I.
 
We have a large grant from the state to improve our ED psychiatry care.

I could write pages and pages about it-- dedicated CM support, in-ED crisis team members, truly networked outpatient management teams, etc etc.
As such we've been able to move the needle on who needs to truly stay in the ED for 3 days waiting for a bed, and who can be rapidly transitioned to an intensive outpatient environment.

On top of that, we are rather aggressive with discharging the clearly manipulative "psych" patients (i.e. homeless and just use the term SI for a bed). Granted you need a verified pattern of behavior to do this.

The team actively chases high utilizers and connects them with better outpatient management, meeting with other health networks if needed, police/ems, various gov't agencies, etc. Multiple very impressive successes with some of these patients who came in 1x a week or more...

There is much more to it, but you get the idea. We've significantly decreased both the number of people who need "observation" in the ED >4 hours, and the length of said observation when it occurs. Even with INCREASING ED census over this time period.


Yet, despite all this, I still have periods where 30% of my ED beds are eaten by "psych boarders" for 1-7days, desperately waiting for a bed that might never come for a true psychiatric emergency.

We in the ED can do a lot to help this crisis, but we can't do it all.
 
This is especially rich considering in 5 years of EM I have never seen nor spoken with a psychiatrist in the Emergency Department.
There certainly are psychiatrists in EDs. We could possibly look up how common/rare this is, but either way I don't want you to think it doesn't exist. Some hospitals make it work.
 
There certainly are psychiatrists in EDs. We could possibly look up how common/rare this is, but either way I don't want you to think it doesn't exist. Some hospitals make it work.

I've never seen one outside of a tertiary care academic center. The reality is that in the community hospitals, which represent 95% of EM, we will never have a psychiatrist on call to help us.
 
I've never seen one outside of a tertiary care academic center. The reality is that in the community hospitals, which represent 95% of EM, we will never have a psychiatrist on call to help us.
I was curious and finally had more time to do research:

http://newsroom.acep.org/2016-10-17...amatically-for-Psychiatric-Emergency-Patients
"Only 16.9 percent reported having a psychiatrist on call to respond to psychiatric emergencies in the emergency department.
More than 11 percent reported having no one on call to respond to psychiatric emergencies."

Those numbers are crazy. As a psychiatrist, I never really see EDs without psychiatrists.
 
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This is an interesting thread. I work on an inpatient psych unit in a general hospital and see first hand the frustration of the ED docs with boarding psych patients. My experience is slightly different from other posts above, because I actually do see patients in the ED, when I'm there during the day. But I have an inpatient unit and consults on med/surg floors to cover as well. I'd say if you're not seeing psychiatrists in your ED it's because the hospital is not willing to pay them to be there. The hospital will have to subsidize the psychiatrists to do this (money loser), because insurance isn't going to pay well enough to justify any psychiatrist to be in the ED. There are just too many other, less stressful ways to earn a living than to worry about losing money from patients with no insurance or hassling with insurance companies. And psych ED is a high liability job. I have only seen dedicated psych ED docs at large teaching hospitals and they were paid well.

In regards to boarding patients being stuck for days in the ED, it's clearly a patient flow problem. There are either barriers preventing admission to psych or barriers to discharge home. From my perspective the biggest problems include:

1. Lack of psych beds (both at my hospital, and in the greater region). My hospital is increasing capacity for neurosurgery, ortho, and labor and delivery, but not psych. I'm sure it's because psych is not a money maker. Unfortunately upset ED doctors don't seem to carry much weight in regards to increasing psych bed capacity (and psychiatrists seem to carry even less). So, the population is increasing, but we have the same number of psych beds as 15 years ago. As long as we are not making money, and many psych units actually lose money, the hospital is going to try and get by with as little as possible.

2. Lacking state hospital space. Once involuntary patients are committed by the court they are supposed to go to the state hospital. In the old days this would happen within the week. Now it takes at least 2 weeks, but I've seen as long as 2 months. So patient's are stabilizing on an acute psych unit over 2 months when they should be at another facility entirely. This backs up the entire flow from the ED into the psych unit.

3. Lack of community treatment. We have a few outpatient psychiatrists, but their clinics are mostly full, so they can cherry pick new patients and pretty much won't take a recently suicidal patient referral from the ED. There are some community mental health clinics with psych NPs, but getting into those appointments can take time, sometimes 6 weeks out. This is a problem when it comes to discharge from the ED. For example, someone comes in acutely suicidal and is stuck in the ED. I actually go see this patient in the ED, talk through their life stressors, they're feeling better, SI stops, and we can start an antidepressant if they're truly depressed maybe something to help with sleep, etc. Then discharge them with 6 weeks of medication and hope they follow up with the psych NP appointment we scheduled. This is a lot of liability on me. Ideally they would be seen again within 1 week. It's one thing to send out an abdominal pain patient and tell them to return if their physical symptoms are not resolving, it's very different to send a recently suicidal patient out of the ED and tell them to come back if their suicidal thoughts return. With suicidal patient's, they can reach a point where they're actually working against you and want to die, and that person is not going to bring themselves back to the ED. So we try to safety plan with family or friends who can check on the patient when they go home, but it is often a sketchy discharge, and some of these patients get admitted to psych to assure everyone they're actually stable before going home. If more treatment were available in the community more of these patients would be discharged from the ED home.

4. The family support structure seems to be falling apart. So many patients have nobody but their drug addict "friends" to help them. Some people have no family, or have burned bridges with anyone who previously could have helped, they are totally alone, so safety planning and discharge home from the ED with family is not possible. And many of these patients get admitted because a safe discharge plan can't be created with their current mental state.

There need to be creative solutions to these problems, but it still comes down to lack of money. There needs to be more funding to get community support programs in place, more ACT teams, more government subsidized chemical dependency treatment that is readily accessible, more partial hospitalization programs. These treatment options are actually disappearing in many places when they should be increasing, and it is only go to put more strain on a lacking system. As the web of treatment and support systems in the community fall apart, more patients will end up in the hospital, which will only make things worse for ED's.

I would encourage the ED doctors not to blame the psychiatrists for this, we are trying our best within a broken system, just like you.
 
The lack of perspective on this thread is amazing.
I've worked at 16 hospitals in my life. Of them, 3 had psychiatrists in the ED, and all were large, tertiary centers with multiple residency programs, including psychiatry. I never saw psych attendings, but maybe they were there. All of them had dedicated psych areas in the ED.
And the other 13 didn't have psychiatrists in the ED or the hospital as a whole. A few didn't have psychiatrists in the county.

And we aren't blaming the psychiatrists per se, it's the job mentality. Psychiatry works almost like derm at this point. Office hours, rarely inpatient. No or little call. However, there isn't a huge national derm problem rearing its ugly head. So I imagine at some point the government will get involved, and nobody wants that.
 
I must work at a unicorn. While we have problems with psych holds, we have a psych consult on call 24/7 and they even come down to the ER daily (or at least they are supposed to). Ihappen to work in a community hospital that has ~ 80 psych beds though, so that might be the reason.
 
I must work at a unicorn. While we have problems with psych holds, we have a psych consult on call 24/7 and they even come down to the ER daily (or at least they are supposed to). Ihappen to work in a community hospital that has ~ 80 psych beds though, so that might be the reason.
That's a large psych unit
 
I must work at a unicorn. While we have problems with psych holds, we have a psych consult on call 24/7 and they even come down to the ER daily (or at least they are supposed to). Ihappen to work in a community hospital that has ~ 80 psych beds though, so that might be the reason.
Any place with a large inpatient psych unit should have somebody (even just an NP) available (at least during business hours) to come evaluate in the ED...it may take them a day or so to do it though.
 
I must work at a unicorn. While we have problems with psych holds, we have a psych consult on call 24/7 and they even come down to the ER daily (or at least they are supposed to). Ihappen to work in a community hospital that has ~ 80 psych beds though, so that might be the reason.
Really, 80? Is that a typo?
 
Child psychiatry fellow in my final few months of training. I just happened to stumble upon this thread.

I definitely feel the frustration of the ER attendings here. Believe me, the frustration is felt by psychiatry residents for sure, as well as inpatient psych attendings. I remember as a resident, I would cover CL patients on the weekends (psych consults on med-surg floors). We also were supposed to cover the ER for patients who were boarding and waiting to be transferred to inpatient psych units. I came in one Saturday, and I had like 8 patients just waiting there and I was like, WTF? What is this, a second psych ward? Ridiculous. All 8 were there on Sunday too.

I once got a call from a desperate ER attending from another hospital, not part of our academic center, stating that he had a kid placed on a 72 hour hold because he threatened another kid with a pencil or something stupid like that. This was a community ER so no psychiatrist there to discontinue the hold. In the state I worked in only a psychiatrist could D/C the hold. He asked me what to do, and I basically said that he could keep the kid there as long as it took to get a bed (probably 3 days), or discharge him home even though he was on the hold and document and hope he doesn't get sued.

The problem of course if multifactorial. De-institutionalization, insurances only paying for 3 days of inpatient before patients are forced to be discharged to repeat the whole cycle again, lack of inpatient beds, etc. etc.

But it's also a supply issue. So few med students go into psychiatry. The demand for mental health treatment, of course, is huge. HUGE. Which then means that the psychiatrists can practice in nice outpatient gigs, and don't NEED to work inpatient. None of them want to come into the ER's after 5pm or on the weekends, why would they? Just like derm.

But ultimately, it's just that not many people care about the mentally ill. Politicians don't. No real $$$ is thrown at this huge problem to try and solve it. There's still lots of stigma in the community and we turn a blind eye, since it's not a sexy topic, "someone else can deal with it."

Just my rambling thoughts.
 
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