Psychiatry Blogs?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

wmro1280

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2011
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
Hey,

I'm putting together a sort of "resource guide" for rotating med students and incoming residents and would like to include a list of some informative/interesting psychiatry blogs. Anyone have any suggestions?

The ones I have so far are:

Carlat Psychiatry Blog
Shrink Rap
Last Psychiatrist
1 Boring Old Man
Psychology Today - Psychiatry blogs

Any others to add to the list?

Members don't see this ad.
 
Worth pointing out specifically--Ghaemi has an infrequently-updated blog at Psychology Today.

Hey,

I'm putting together a sort of "resource guide" for rotating med students and incoming residents and would like to include a list of some informative/interesting psychiatry blogs. Anyone have any suggestions?

The ones I have so far are:

Carlat Psychiatry Blog
Shrink Rap
Last Psychiatrist
1 Boring Old Man
Psychology Today - Psychiatry blogs

Any others to add to the list?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I would cross off carlat psychiatry blog. He believes psychologists should have full prescribing rights and essentially discounts the value of the profession and encourages poor training. He fights against the influences of industry in psychiatry for patient care, then advocates one of the most dangerous things for patient care? After reading that piece of his I promptly deleted him and encourage others to do the same.

Say no to Carlat.
 
Last edited:
I would cross off carlat psychiatry blog. He believes psychologists should have full prescribing rights and essentially discounts the value of the profession and encourages poor training. He fights against the influences of industry in psychiatry for patient care, then advocates one of the most dangerous things for patient care? After reading that piece of his I promptly deleted him and encourage others to do the same.

Say no to Carlat.

I must have missed the AP story about all of the maimed patients at hands of prescribing psychologists. Link?
 
I would cross off carlat psychiatry blog. He believes psychologists should have full prescribing rights and essentially discounts the value of the profession and encourages poor training. He fights against the influences of industry in psychiatry for patient care, then advocates one of the most dangerous things for patient care? After reading that piece of his I promptly deleted him and encourage others to do the same.

Say no to Carlat.

:thumbup: He gains a lot financially while preaching hellfire and damnation. A lot of psychiatrists are waking up to him.

I must have missed the AP story about all of the maimed patients at hands of prescribing psychologists. Link?

And I want the link to data that allowing 5 year old children of pirates, prescription privileges is associated with poor outcomes. People for Pirate Prescription Privileges unite! Where art thou oh spaghetti monster to teach us some much needed statistics. :rolleyes:
 
I must have missed the AP story about all of the maimed patients at hands of prescribing psychologists. Link?

Well, I see the point in your comment. After all there isn't a heck of a lot of data showing psychologists maiming people, though I also disagree with Carlat because he wants to push something that hasn't been tested. Psychologist prescribing has only been tested and measured in the military, and the military study on this didn't exactly show it to be the best thing since sliced bread. It showed pros and cons, and the study itself said it wasn't applicable to the public.

Yet the advocates of psychologist prescription powers keep citing this study as if it's scripture as to the only proof needed to pass a bill.

I love the Carlat Report. I find the Carlat Blog worrisome at times.

I see it as if Carlat is two different people. One, based on the Carlat Report, is about good evidenced-based practice with a strong foundation in medical knowledge. That is something several psychiatrists forget about. Several imporant medical issues are brought us such as psychotropic interactions with existing medical conditions, liver metabolism, etc.

Yet the other Carlat is one that has openly written things to the effect that psychiatrists hardly use medical training in their work, and just hand out scripts with as much attention to a patient's medical condition as any psychologist, and then argued that because of this, psychologists should get prescription power. I specifically brought a link to an interview where he said such things, and put it on the forum about a year ago, but I don't recall where it is now.

The two concepts are in contradiction to each other. Why his Carlat Report emphasizes good medical skills so much, yet his blog downplays it, I don't understand. He argued that psychologist prescribing will create a reform within psychiatry for better psychotherapy. I don't think it would. If anything I think it would create psychologists that could now do what bad psychiatrists do--just medicate without trying to figure out the problem for real. I honestly don't think bad psychiatrists will have a lightbulb moment and say to themselves that maybe they should actually learn psychotherapy and listening because a competitor could now prescribe.
 
Last edited:
Well, I see the point in your comment. After all there isn't a heck of a lot of data showing psychologists maiming people, though I also disagree with Carlat because he wants to push something that hasn't been tested. Psychologist prescribing has only been tested and measured in the military, and the military study on this didn't exactly show it to be the best thing since sliced bread. It showed pros and cons, and the study itself said it wasn't applicable to the public.

Yet the advocates of psychologist prescription powers keep citing this study as if it's scripture as to the only proof needed to pass a bill.

I love the Carlat Report. I find the Carlat Blog worrisome at times.

I see it as if Carlat is two different people. One, based on the Carlat Report, is about good evidenced-based practice with a strong foundation in medical knowledge. That is something several psychiatrists forget about. Several imporant medical issues are brought us such as psychotropic interactions with existing medical conditions, liver metabolism, etc.

Yet the other Carlat is one that has openly written things to the effect that psychiatrists hardly use medical training in their work, and just hand out scripts with as much attention to a patient's medical condition as any psychologist, and then argued that because of this, psychologists should get prescription power. I specifically brought a link to an interview where he said such things, and put it on the forum about a year ago, but I don't recall where it is now.

The two concepts are in contradiction to each other. Why his Carlat Report emphasizes good medical skills so much, yet his blog downplays it, I don't understand. He argued that psychologist prescribing will create a reform within psychiatry for better psychotherapy. I don't think it would. If anything I think it would create psychologists that could now do what bad psychiatrists do--just medicate without trying to figure out the problem for real. I honestly don't think bad psychiatrists will have a lightbulb moment and say to themselves that maybe they should actually learn psychotherapy and listening because a competitor could now prescribe.

I have to agree with you. I just recently read , the psychiatric times, a review about his latest book, (forgot name) with his response to the critique of it. I dont recall much now, but he did however say that people are focusing too much on his views of the psychologist prescribing rights, but stressed, that wasn't his only proposal. He advocated for that overhaul of medical school and residency in general for psychiatry, should be much shorter or at least revamped because he felt psychiatrists dont need/utilize their overall medical training. I disagree as well. I would be nowhere without my medical and internal med/neurology traininng, In addition these are things that I and my colleagues constantly use and utilize day to day in residency, and on calls and moonlighting and after residency. I dont see the great panacea that I feel he's recommending/pushing, concerning psychotherapy as he does. I do have admit his clinical interviewing skills book is really good.
 
He advocated for that overhaul of medical school and residency in general for psychiatry, should be much shorter or at least revamped because he felt psychiatrists dont need/utilize their overall medical training. I disagree as well. I would be nowhere without my medical and internal med/neurology traininng, In addition these are things that I and my colleagues constantly use and utilize day to day in residency, and on calls and moonlighting and after residency.

I have to agree. Even in my limited experience, my medical training, such as it is, has been extremely valuable. Although I think the path through medical school could be shortened (maybe 2-3 years of intense undergrad, 3 years of med school, then residency as it now stands, or add an extra year or 2 if we cut back to more humane work hours), I definitely don't think it should be abolished. Just in depression, I've seen an insane number of medical causes: thyroid, cancer, hemochromatosis, kidney failure, alzheimer's, parkinson's, on and on and on and on...not to mention the co-morbid conditions, the depressed patient who eats too much, gets obese, gets diabetes/HTN/etc...as physicians we can address these things, or get people to the right specialists.

If anything we should be pushing for MORE (or better) medical education. It boggles my mind sometimes what they let people do with no training. There are people playing dermatologist with no medical training whatsoever but a doc's name on the business. Psychologists should be required to get SOME medical training. Do they need to understand the movement of every ion in the kidney or how to deliver a baby? No. And I could argue that we don't either, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't learn about kidney disease, pregnancy physiology and how it affects (or doesn't affect) thyroid hormone levels, and other pertinent material.

If you're going to be treating people with an illness that MIGHT be caused by a medical condition, you should know about those medical conditions and how to diagnose them, AT MINIMUM. I'm sure there are many psychologists who would catch a hypothyroid patient who was depressed and refer them to a doc...but they all should.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
IMHO a psychiatry curriculum should include the equivalent of about 30 credits of psychology courses that have direct implications on mental health such as physiological psychobiology (where you are taught a heck of a lot of things about physiology and it's connections to emotions that are not taught in psychiatry residency. E.g. Oxytocin and bonding between parents and children), abnormal psychology, psychometric testing, malingering testing, among several others where the person had to study these as if in an academic curriculum.

They should not be taught in the type of curriculum where a resident could skip these if they were post-call, and actually tested on them.

The problem is how do you do this in a residency program where the state gov pays for residents based on the work they do to create cheap labor? I don't know.

If and when psychiatry residents did this type of thing, they should have very light duty so they could focus on this stuff. E.g. no call, perhaps maybe only day hours.

Just my idea. I know it'll go nowhere.

Oh and by the way, medical knowledge still needs to be emphasized. I don't know where Carlat is getting this philosophy that it's not important while at the same time giving such great articles on the medical aspects of psychiatry in Carlat Report. Maybe he has DID?
 
IMHO a psychiatry curriculum should include the equivalent of about 30 credits of psychology courses that have direct implications on mental health such as physiological psychobiology (where you are taught a heck of a lot of things about physiology and it's connections to emotions that are not taught in psychiatry residency. E.g. Oxytocin and bonding between parents and children), abnormal psychology, psychometric testing, malingering testing, among several others where the person had to study these as if in an academic curriculum.

They should not be taught in the type of curriculum where a resident could skip these if they were post-call, and actually tested on them.

The problem is how do you do this in a residency program where the state gov pays for residents based on the work they do to create cheap labor? I don't know.

If and when psychiatry residents did this type of thing, they should have very light duty so they could focus on this stuff. E.g. no call, perhaps maybe only day hours.

Just my idea. I know it'll go nowhere.

Oh and by the way, medical knowledge still needs to be emphasized. I don't know where Carlat is getting this philosophy that it's not important while at the same time giving such great articles on the medical aspects of psychiatry in Carlat Report. Maybe he has DID?

If you ask me (and no one really did), the entire medical education system could use an overhaul. While I agree 1000% that medical knowledge is necessary, we waste so much time on things that no one remembers or uses after 2nd year. How much Histology do you guys remember or use, ever? Why not have a medical curriculum that emphasizes what's actually important in real life?

Even better, have a curriculum where medical school changes based on what you want to go in to. For example, there could be a "psychiatry track" in medical school which would focus more on the things you mentioned, and less (but still some) on the other "normal" med school things.

It works well in Harry Potter. If someone wants to be an Auror, they take the classes that prepare them for that career. You don't prepare for EVERY career, then pick one.

I think the amount of OBGYN we had to learn, for example, is insane. Any of you guys remember how to read a fetal heart tracing? When was the last time a psychiatrist did that? Hmm? Why am I, a budding psychiatrist, wasting my valuable time on that? On the other hand, things like Diabetes, Strokes, Endocrine/Thyroid, could be very useful to both me and my FM/IM brethren. And how much time do we spend on that? About the same as on fetal heart tracings. When you have to learn everything, you don't learn anything.

I'm not saying we shouldn't learn ANY OBGYN, but a month experience, tailored to what we might want to go into would be far more useful than a month memorizing every fact in Blueprints.
 
If you ask me (and no one really did), the entire medical education system could use an overhaul. While I agree 1000% that medical knowledge is necessary, we waste so much time on things that no one remembers or uses after 2nd year. How much Histology do you guys remember or use, ever? Why not have a medical curriculum that emphasizes what's actually important in real life?

Even better, have a curriculum where medical school changes based on what you want to go in to. For example, there could be a "psychiatry track" in medical school which would focus more on the things you mentioned, and less (but still some) on the other "normal" med school things.

It works well in Harry Potter. If someone wants to be an Auror, they take the classes that prepare them for that career. You don't prepare for EVERY career, then pick one.

I think the amount of OBGYN we had to learn, for example, is insane. Any of you guys remember how to read a fetal heart tracing? When was the last time a psychiatrist did that? Hmm? Why am I, a budding psychiatrist, wasting my valuable time on that? On the other hand, things like Diabetes, Strokes, Endocrine/Thyroid, could be very useful to both me and my FM/IM brethren. And how much time do we spend on that? About the same as on fetal heart tracings. When you have to learn everything, you don't learn anything.

I'm not saying we shouldn't learn ANY OBGYN, but a month experience, tailored to what we might want to go into would be far more useful than a month memorizing every fact in Blueprints.

I have been saying exactly this since I started first year.
 
How many times have any of you actually used your Krebs cycle knowledge in clinical practice?


Krebs cycle is just basic biology. If you have any brains you should be learning about it when you are 16 or 17 yrs old. US high school is just a waste of time for bright people who have to wait until tertiary education to find out who has is bright and who is not. imo the root cause of the problem for people who are going to spend a long long time training.
 
How many times have any of you actually used your Krebs cycle knowledge in clinical practice?

Exactly. Why can't I take basic biology courses more tailored to medicine? I know they want people to be well rounded, but most med students I've met ARE...and not because of some college classes. Most of my classmates are quite skilled at various hobbies, from sports to music, and enjoy reading.

My undergrad had courses in Human Anatomy, Human Biology, Human Physiology...and I couldn't take them as a pre-med/Bio major. They were for Allied Health only. Seriously?!? So, you don't let the guy who is going to be treating people take some people classes?!? Instead I wound up in Plant Biology, Animal Physiology, Oceanography and bunch of other crap that was a huge waste of time.

And, I know they use classes like Orgo as a "weeding out" process, but maybe, just MAYBE, we should choose our future doctors based on something besides their ability to complete organic chemistry or memorize reams of information for multiple choice tests.
 
Organic Chem I actually makes sense. After that it doesn't. Coating an object with a layer of silver doesn't make sense unless you're a werewolf hunter.

Krebs cycle..they test you to the point where you have to have every single step in the cycle memorized. No one I know actually uses this.

While the Krebs cycle, IMHO, does have importance, in terms of a biological understanding of an organism, it's importance in clinical, and I'd even say in research is miniscule, yet it's tested to the point where you have to know every single step of the process.

IMHO, it's importance should only be to the point where a student could identify what it is, and how it relates to the rest of the processes in an organism. That's it.
 
Well, I see the point in your comment. After all there isn't a heck of a lot of data showing psychologists maiming people, though I also disagree with Carlat because he wants to push something that hasn't been tested. Psychologist prescribing has only been tested and measured in the military, and the military study on this didn't exactly show it to be the best thing since sliced bread. It showed pros and cons, and the study itself said it wasn't applicable to the public.

Yet the advocates of psychologist prescription powers keep citing this study as if it's scripture as to the only proof needed to pass a bill.

I love the Carlat Report. I find the Carlat Blog worrisome at times.

I see it as if Carlat is two different people. One, based on the Carlat Report, is about good evidenced-based practice with a strong foundation in medical knowledge. That is something several psychiatrists forget about. Several imporant medical issues are brought us such as psychotropic interactions with existing medical conditions, liver metabolism, etc.

Yet the other Carlat is one that has openly written things to the effect that psychiatrists hardly use medical training in their work, and just hand out scripts with as much attention to a patient's medical condition as any psychologist, and then argued that because of this, psychologists should get prescription power. I specifically brought a link to an interview where he said such things, and put it on the forum about a year ago, but I don't recall where it is now.

The two concepts are in contradiction to each other. Why his Carlat Report emphasizes good medical skills so much, yet his blog downplays it, I don't understand. He argued that psychologist prescribing will create a reform within psychiatry for better psychotherapy. I don't think it would. If anything I think it would create psychologists that could now do what bad psychiatrists do--just medicate without trying to figure out the problem for real. I honestly don't think bad psychiatrists will have a lightbulb moment and say to themselves that maybe they should actually learn psychotherapy and listening because a competitor could now prescribe.

Great conversation, which was exactly what I was hoping for. And I get a free diagnostic evaluation at the same time!:confused: (picture of me with DID).

Anyway, medical knowledge is absolutely crucial for psychiatric practice, and I have never argued that anybody should be allowed to prescribe meds without that. The question is whether we need all of medical school to get the training required. I don't think so. I am advocating for an alternative. This could be a minor tweak to medical school, such as a "psychiatry track" as someone on this list mentioned. But I think we should go further, learning a lesson from dentists and optometrists. They are clearly both medical specialists--more "medical" in terms of their routine work than psychiatrists--and yet neither goes to medical school. Instead, they get a BA, then go to four year professional colleges of dentistry or optometry. They don't end up with an MD, but rather a DDS or a DO.

Why can't we create an analogous training program for psychiatrists? After all, you can pack a lot of training in physiology, pharmacology, endocrinology, pharmacokinetics....plus training in all evidence-based psychotherapies, substance abuse treatment, neuropsych testing etc.... into a four year program. After four years, you would graduate with a "DP" (Doctor of Psychiatry?) or some other yet to be dreamed up designation. You would be allowed to prescribe from a limited formulary of neuropsychiatric meds (just as dentists and optometrists can prescribe from formularies appropriate to their specialties).

This would not be a substitute for standard psychiatric training, but simply another option.

Advantages:
--A shorter training period would alleviate the shortage of psychiatrists
--The program would attract more psychologically minded students--those, like me, who struggled about whether to go into medical school or clinical psychology grad school after college
--Less post-graduate debt burden, so less of a need to churn out 15 minute 90862s to pay off that debt
--Better training in psychotherapy and psychological testing
--Graduates could provide truly integrated psychiatric care--which is incidentally the theme of the new APA president, Dr. John Oldham. (see Psychiatric News, June 17 2011 issue).

Of course, "DPs" would not be as medically sophisticated as those who go through medical school, and would refer their more medically complicated cases to psychiatrists. This is analogous to optometrists referring tough cases to ophthomologists, or dentists to oro-facial surgeons.

Radical idea? Absolutely. But I think it represents one way to solve the mental health crisis of access to high quality psychiatric care.
 
Ochem and biochem are needed.

Just today I was able to explain to a patient who left a message asking why his most recent citalopram refill had HBr on it. Using ochem knowlege I briefly explained it is a method to make the active compound a salt so it stays a pill and then when we digest it, we get rid of it and have the active drug in our blood.

Next example is the use of Carnatine in treating VPA induced hyperammonemia. This is rooted in the krebs cycle.

Thirdly, flip open your kaplan sadock and pick any drug section. You'll see in the TCAs for instance a better understanding based on Ochem diagrams of how and why they are called what they are.

Having the rigerous science background we do is essential to establishing the Scientist identity. If forces upon you a healthy respect for science and the limitations of it. I don't use most of what I have learned in the past but I definitely have the memories (scars?) of where various theories, molecular paths, and random facts fit in the big scheme and I can reference them quickly when needed. I believe watering down the pre-requisites will only serve to encourage less studious and deligent physicians to take over and propagate the expansion of things like CAM.
 
...
Advantages:
--A shorter training period would alleviate the shortage of psychiatrists
--The program would attract more psychologically minded students--those, like me, who struggled about whether to go into medical school or clinical psychology grad school after college
--Less post-graduate debt burden, so less of a need to churn out 15 minute 90862s to pay off that debt
--Better training in psychotherapy and psychological testing
--Graduates could provide truly integrated psychiatric care--which is incidentally the theme of the new APA president, Dr. John Oldham. (see Psychiatric News, June 17 2011 issue).

Of course, "DPs" would not be as medically sophisticated as those who go through medical school, and would refer their more medically complicated cases to psychiatrists. This is analogous to optometrists referring tough cases to ophthomologists, or dentists to oro-facial surgeons.

Radical idea? Absolutely. But I think it represents one way to solve the mental health crisis of access to high quality psychiatric care.
1) If someone is choosing the shorter training program to become a mental health practitioner I will wonder what else are they short changing? Difficult, challanging things require time, devotion, and hard work. We have a shortage of psychiatrists not because of the length of training but because of the number of residencies. The solution is to increase the number of residencies. I believe the coming windfall of medicare slashes and taking out GME funding will actually be beneficial for medicine as a whole and lead to more residencies, essentially ending GME welfare.
2) There is nothing stopping 'psychologically minded students' from still being psychologically minded students in medical school, residency and private practice. What we need to do is encourage these students to still apply and that their fears are warranted but not a deal breaker for pursuing medicine. Creating a whole new mid level is going too far.
3) We are not being forced into 15 minute med checks. We are choosing 15 minute med checks. If some one uses the argument that they can't run a practice on 30 minute checks than they need to reduce overhead (i.e. be more effecient) and secondly balance bill for what they do need to run their business. Don't sign contracts with insurance that don't permit balance billing. Its that simple. Place honous on the insurance companies to change. We don't need to carry that burden.
4) Post graduate debt burden is not insurmountable yet. Wise academic choices, living frugal, appropriate planning still make medicine a phenominal business choice. I'm +200K and not worried at all.
5) The need for psychological testing is not that great for it to be an ubiquitous tool for all mental health providers. It takes time and is just fine where its at with those who do it every day all the time and are truly specialists.
6) The psychotherapy pendulum is already starting to swing back towards the prevalence of the DSM II/III generation. We have peaked in biological and residency programs are integrating it more. The biological shift was a good thing. It put added pressure on evidence of therapies rather than cultish blind faith.
7) The thing you forget about optometrists in your analogy above about them not being as medically sophisticated is that every midlevel is pushing for scope of expansion. Optometrists are pushing for surgical skills. Midlevels don't want to refer they want to do it all. Who in these "DP" training programs are going to show them where the limits of their knowledge are and at what point to refer? DNP's already believe they are physician equivalents and half the states in the union permit unrestricted unsupervised practice of medicine.

I disagree with what you advocate for.
 
Last edited:
Dr. Carlat: I'm glad you're enjoying the discussion. I am as well. I'd rather find out how to change it. We are practicing in a model of medicine designed for the 19th century, not the 21st.

I do NOT agree about the mid levels. We already have those, they're called "Psych PAs" or "Psych DNPs".

I also worry about further fragmenting our already over-fragmented healthcare system. As a patient it would be incredibly frustrating to have to go to one doctor for a psych med, another for a heart med, etc. I know this is currently the case, but it's not the best situation. I'm also not advocating for GP only medicine, but again there is a balance. Either FM docs need the freedom and training to step up their treatment of psych issues and stop referring every case of depression because they're afraid of malpractice, or psychiatrists need the freedom to treat some basic medical issues of the mentally ill, like well-controlled HTN, easy bread and butter stuff, which we don't, again because of tort (and some lack of training). Although I've seen many psychiatrists treat those issues fine in inpatient practice, only to balk at doing it in outpatient, which again, is likely due to malpractice risk.

Sneezing: Disagree A LOT with your comment stating that increasing the number of residencies will fix the shortage. Fail. No one is going into psych. So many of our residency spots currently fill with IMGs, many of whom (not all) have no desire to be psychiatrists, but want to be a US doc, so they take what they can get.

I agree that some basic science knowledge is needed, but I think there is a balance between what is needed and what we are doing today. I TA'd orgo and was quite good at it, but I've only used a fraction of my orgo knowledge. Is it useful to understand a structure? Yes. But, I learned that on my first day. I learned about salts in Gen Chem, but that is also useful. Biochem is useful, agreed.

The problem is that much of what we learn is NOT used, and is only there for ephemeral reasons, like making sure doctors are scientists...as if finishing Orgo, Biochem, or even a B.S. in Biology somehow makes you a "scientist" or teaches you respect for the scientific method.
 
...

Sneezing: Disagree A LOT with your comment stating that increasing the number of residencies will fix the shortage. Fail. No one is going into psych. So many of our residency spots currently fill with IMGs, many of whom (not all) have no desire to be psychiatrists, but want to be a US doc, so they take what they can get.

...

I would rather have an intelligent hard working IMG as my physician than a mediocre DNP, 'DP', or other midlevel who chose not to endure the academic rigors it takes. There are more residencies than american grads (fact). This is being approached with increased MD class sizes and more DO schools. Psychiatry needs multicultural people. Now whether we get them from IMGs or 2nd generation Americans or any other combo they are needed. Our nation is only increasing in population because of immigrants. Just because psych isn't every IMG's first choice doesn't mean they are incapable of being a better psychiatrist than you. The internationals at my institution are superb whether faculty or resident. IMGs already make up something like 1/3 or 1/4 of the US physician work force. They are an excellent resource in the melting pot that is our country.
 
Hi DC. Thanks for coming to play in our sandbox again. We really appreciate it.

A few things that might clarify for us?

What are your thoughts about the pre-reqs for these programs?

Would these folks take the MCAT? the GRE? The "special copyrighted test written by Daniel Carlat himself for the low price of $899.95!"?

What would keep these programs from becoming the "well, I got a C in organic, so I guess I'll be a psychiatrist instead of a real doctor" option. I mean, when I didn't get a 250 on Step 1, that sealed me not becoming a neurosurgeon, but that's a little different.

Would they be independent practitioners? Would they work with "neuropsychiatric" supervision? Or even PCP supervision?

Would they be able to prescribe prazosin? T3? Could they treat a lithium tremor with propanolol? (or would any case complicated enough to need these interventions already be "bumped up" to MD care?)

How are we going to handle the psychiatric subspecialties? Are we going to have child fellowships for DPs?

Given that prescribing pays better than talking, what will keep DPs from following the money and prescribing instead of talking? Surely an insurance company isn't going to pay a DP as much as an MD, but they're not going to pay them as lousy as an MSW either. And psychiatric carve outs are going to be incentivizing prescribing over talking for the foreseeable future.

If these answers are in the book, I will buy it when the kindle version isn't more expensive than the hardback version (not that you have any control over that). Already exhausted my bookfund for the year.
 
I would rather have an intelligent hard working IMG as my physician than a mediocre DNP, 'DP', or other midlevel who chose not to endure the academic rigors it takes. There are more residencies than american grads (fact). This is being approached with increased MD class sizes and more DO schools. Psychiatry needs multicultural people. Now whether we get them from IMGs or 2nd generation Americans or any other combo they are needed. Our nation is only increasing in population because of immigrants. Just because psych isn't every IMG's first choice doesn't mean they are incapable of being a better psychiatrist than you. The internationals at my institution are superb whether faculty or resident. IMGs already make up something like 1/3 or 1/4 of the US physician work force. They are an excellent resource in the melting pot that is our country.

Oh, I agree with you there 1000%. I do still think we should expend a bit more energy finding people who actually want to do psych, and are not just trying to get into the system. Many IMGs use this as a stepping stone, and once they're in, know people, and get a good reputation, switch to other specialties. Meanwhile, a US grad may have lost a spot to that person. Still, even with the IMGs, many psych spots go unfilled each year. We need to attract more (and better) applicants before increasing the spots will help.

Applicants follow the money. It wasn't so long ago that you needed a pulse to match anesthesia or rads...then, BOOM, their salaries have gone up and suddenly everyone wants to do it. You really think that many docs want to sit in a dark room and stare at a screen? No, but they'll do it for 2x the salary and 1/2 (or less) of the paperwork. I don't really like this answer either though. Then we wind up with US grads who don't want to do psych, but just want the $$$. The real answer is to equalize salaries between specialties, then people will truly pick what they enjoy. Of course, if salaries equalize too low, they'll pick a non-medical career and we'll get losers in medicine. Gulp.
 
Radical idea? Absolutely. But I think it represents one way to solve the mental health crisis of access to high quality psychiatric care.

My prediction would be a steep decline in med student recruitment into psychiatry, roughly proportionate to the increased entry of "DPs," nullifying whatever gains you'd make.

The problem is that there's nothing more discouraging for medical students than hearing about mid-levels replacing us. We want to know that we're going to be specialists, individuals with unique, irreplaceable skills. Sure, anesthesiology and ophthalmology have weathered the mid-level storm (so far), but they were already lucrative fields to begin with. Its hard enough recruiting medical students into psychiatry as it is, overcoming the prevailing dogma that a career in psychiatry means forfeiting years of non-psych medical training. Now, on top of that, there's an cloud of uncertainty with reimbursement, job availability and relevance. There are dozens of specialties where my training and dedication designates me as an authority. Why pick an area of expertise where I'm not even considered much of an expert?

Historically, physicians have responded to crisis by ceding more and more autonomy. The result is a system that has shifted away from physician-patient relationships, towards bureaucracy. Instead of bringing outsiders in to fix our messes, see if we can come up with internal solutions. One possible answer to the psych shortage would be bolstering primary care in rural areas, giving family doctors and internists better psych education, as well as financial incentive to see patients in a psychiatric context (bill for time spent, not procedures performed). Allow physicians opportunities to bill for phone consults (or possibly video chat), collaborating with distant colleagues for psych medication. Anything but adding another cog to any already incomprehensibly complicated machine.
 
I have to agree. Even in my limited experience, my medical training, such as it is, has been extremely valuable. Although I think the path through medical school could be shortened (maybe 2-3 years of intense undergrad, 3 years of med school, then residency as it now stands, or add an extra year or 2 if we cut back to more humane work hours), I definitely don't think it should be abolished. Just in depression, I've seen an insane number of medical causes: thyroid, cancer, hemochromatosis, kidney failure, alzheimer's, parkinson's, on and on and on and on...not to mention the co-morbid conditions, the depressed patient who eats too much, gets obese, gets diabetes/HTN/etc...as physicians we can address these things, or get people to the right specialists.

If anything we should be pushing for MORE (or better) medical education. It boggles my mind sometimes what they let people do with no training. There are people playing dermatologist with no medical training whatsoever but a doc's name on the business. Psychologists should be required to get SOME medical training. Do they need to understand the movement of every ion in the kidney or how to deliver a baby? No. And I could argue that we don't either, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't learn about kidney disease, pregnancy physiology and how it affects (or doesn't affect) thyroid hormone levels, and other pertinent material.

If you're going to be treating people with an illness that MIGHT be caused by a medical condition, you should know about those medical conditions and how to diagnose them, AT MINIMUM. I'm sure there are many psychologists who would catch a hypothyroid patient who was depressed and refer them to a doc...but they all should.

Great post. This, in my opinion, is a huge drawback to a psychologist education. It is leading me to the unfortunate conclusion that I am likely to need more education in physical health.
 
Great conversation, which was exactly what I was hoping for. And I get a free diagnostic evaluation at the same time! (picture of me with DID).

Anyway, medical knowledge is absolutely crucial for psychiatric practice, and I have never argued that anybody should be allowed to prescribe meds without that.

Really?

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...prescription-privileges-conversation-part-one

Dr. Carlat," asked Linda. "I've always wondered--what is the difference between a psychiatrist and a psychologist?"

"The main difference," I said, leaning back in my leather chair, "is that psychiatrists can prescribe medications, while psychologists-with a few exceptions--cannot."

"So...that's the only difference?"

"No. Psychologists have much more training in doing talk therapy."

"So to become a psychiatrist, do you go to psychiatry school?"

No-to be a psychiatrist you have go to four years of medical school first, then you do one year of general medical work in a hospital, and then you go to three years of something called psychiatric residency, which is an on the job training program."

"Wait a minute," asked Linda, almost jumping out of her Queen Anne chair. "You went to medical school?"

"Yup."

"You mean like where you cut open cadavers, do surgery, deliver babies, and do rectal exams?"

"Uh huh."

"But why would a psychiatrist have to learn all those things? You don't do physical exams or surgery, do you?"

"No I don't. And almost none of my colleagues do either. Mostly what we do is what I am doing right now-sit across from people and talk to them. And at the end of the conversation, I usually write out a prescription.

Okay--here's the take home

No I don't. And almost none of my colleagues do either. Mostly what we do is what I am doing right now-sit across from people and talk to them. And at the end of the conversation, I usually write out a prescription.

I mentioned this before in threads where I brought up the above article. Good medical knowledge is important to psychiatry and this is obvious to a psychiatrist, but this is something not known to laymen, and I feel your article was misleading to that audience.

When reading the context of the entire article, it highly suggests that psychiatrists and medical practice (aside from the actual act of prescribing) are things that don't have to go together.

And while one could argue that Dr. Carlat was misrepresented, take a look at the top of the article...

How my profession has come unhinged—and how to fix it.
by Daniel Carlat, M.D. Psychologists and Prescription Privileges: A Conversation (Part One)
A psychiatrist discusses psychologist prescription privileges with his patient.
Published on March 30, 2010 by Daniel Carlat, M.D. in The New Psychiatry

Again I'm seeing two Daniel Carlats. One is for good medical knowledge and it's incorporation into psychiatric practice. The other one mentions that most psychiatrists just talk and give out a script, not mention that many psychiatrists order labs, perform physical exams, are concerned about their patient's medical status, and often recommend psychotropic medications in a manner to complement their existing medical treatment, while downplaying the importance of medical knowledge in psychiatric practice. Hence the sarcastic DID remark. I really don't think Dr. Carlat has DID.
 
Last edited:
For those of you who didn't follow some of the previous threads that Carlat partipicated in, he did advocate for the Oregon psychologist prescription bill.

The main reason why I was against it, and factor-in I'm not against psychologists prescribing so long as they've had appropriate training was the bill did not clarify who had ultimate responsibility, a physician or the psychologist when it came to prescribing. It required some type of medical professional oversight, but it wasn't clear as to how this worked.

In the existing bills such as in Louisiana, a physician did have the ability to overrride the psychologist. This provision wasn't in the Oregon bill, and therefore, there's no clear direction for responsibility if something goes wrong. (I reviewed the laws of both states regarding this. It's been a few months, so someone clarify me if I am in error).

This is not just about legal finger-pointing. When more than one clinician is controlling treatment, and the lines of responsibility aren't clear, it can lead to errors over who is supposed to do what and this can lead to mistakes and oversights. The Louisiana bill still put physicians as having a final say over the safety of a psychotropic medication.

There were other problems, but the above IMHO was far worse than existing psychologist prescription bills that passed in other states.
 
Last edited:
Top