interview season is coming up and i've heard that some faculty (esp if it's a psychodynamic-focused program) can ask probing questions during your interview (i.e how was your childhood, what's your relationship with your parents). is it one of those situations where if you have nothing nice to say, don't say it at all or can you be honest? how much is okay to disclose?
psychoanalyzed during residency interviews
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deleted736562
I found these questions really inappropriate. I was asked at one place to name one bad quality about my family. That was a red flag to rank the program really low. Just because it's a psychoanalytically focused program doesn't mean it's ok to psychoanalyze you in a job interview.
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I had questions like this at a few places, one that was just a full on dynamic probing session with basically an entire hour about my childhood and relationship with my mother. I answered them honestly but also didn't have much of substance to hide. I would dance as much as possible and avoid treating it like a therapy session as best you can; I imagine nothing good comes if you are even asking how much is okay to disclose.
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well if you want to a psychoanalytically oriented program you should be prepared to talk about yourself. that doesn't mean you should tell them all about your childhood traumas or they will be wondering what you are hiding. if it makes you uncomfortable to talk about yourself it's not the program for you. even therapy patients don't tell all the first session. They want to see that you are psychologically minded, intellectually curious, get a sense of what makes you tick and where your interest in psychiatry came from. You want to say enough to keep them interested but don't overdisclose or they'll lose interest
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If these programs interest you, I would develop a plan in advance for handling different situations. I attempted to disclose minimally, but I started running into "Can you dig deeper? That's a very superficial analysis..... (disappointed look)".
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It would take a pretty narcissistic analyst to think they could figure you out in the span of a med school interview. They're probably just wanting to know if you can think with any depth about yourself and your origins. Other than red flag kind of stuff, I doubt your response would matter beyond whether you act professionally and more than superficially.
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I got psychoanalyzed at UT southwestern. I tried to put a positive spin on it and how having my own experiences will allow me to better understand where my patients are coming from etc etc. I wouldn't reveal too much though.
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A good psychologist or psychiatrist doesn't waste time asking those types of personal questions during an interview. We wait for the applicant to over-disclose all on their own.
From the other side of it, as an interviewee, it is a red flag if they are too probing and clicking into "therapist mode". Otherwise, just as other posters shared, answer succinctly and directly without going into too much detail and whatever you do, don't reach for the tissue box!
From the other side of it, as an interviewee, it is a red flag if they are too probing and clicking into "therapist mode". Otherwise, just as other posters shared, answer succinctly and directly without going into too much detail and whatever you do, don't reach for the tissue box!
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HarryMTieboutMD
The PD at a major biological program/research powerhouse (everyone knows this program, it may or may not have been already mentioned in this thread) is an analyst but is really nice and won't make you talk about things INAPPROPRIATE FOR A JOB INTERVIEW if you don't want to. I threw up some major resistance and changed the topic, and he was cool with it
That said, most analysts hanging around academic departments are probably perverts like Schlomo Dove in Mount Misery who thrive off of all of that crap and will interpret you deflecting/refusing as resistance that must be overcome and interpret the transference as your repressed fantasies for whomever, so yeah, do what you want
That said, most analysts hanging around academic departments are probably perverts like Schlomo Dove in Mount Misery who thrive off of all of that crap and will interpret you deflecting/refusing as resistance that must be overcome and interpret the transference as your repressed fantasies for whomever, so yeah, do what you want
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666357
yeah, you gotta turn that around on them.
"My childhood was just fine. I'd like to talk about your childhood..."
or-
"Well, after a brief phase of setting cats on fire and chronic bedwetting, all was copacetic."
"My childhood was just fine. I'd like to talk about your childhood..."
or-
"Well, after a brief phase of setting cats on fire and chronic bedwetting, all was copacetic."
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deleted736562
This. Experienced interviewers will be able to assess how psychologically minded the applicant is from much more menial questions and will end up still looking professional. I think those who like to probe deep are doing it for different reasons. They want to rule out applicants with "problematic" family dynamics.
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The interviewers probably think they are very slick and sophisticated and do not realize how creepy they seem.
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You think it's annoying being analyzed during an interview? Imagine how the general public feels being seated next to a psychiatrist an airplane. (Assuming they're not the portion of the general public that wants to talk about all their problems!) One of the reasons I soured on psychiatry was because I saw during my residency how so many attendings, presumably otherwise normal individuals, had lost a very core part of their basic social skills. Like, don't try to read minds of people in social (or job interview) settings.
A reflex tendency to psychoanalyze others, and to see life in terms of DSM codes and not a whole lot else, is a hallmark hazard of the trade of psychiatry. It isn't going away. If it bothers you now, when you haven't even started, it might bother you more as you have to deal with it on a daily basis, in a hierarchical setting where you have to report to the people who are inappropriately psychoanalyzing you because, well, that's what they've learned to do over the last 50 years, and they long ago lost any idea of how else to interact with others.
Oh, and by the way, if you complain about this, that will be considered "anxiety."
A reflex tendency to psychoanalyze others, and to see life in terms of DSM codes and not a whole lot else, is a hallmark hazard of the trade of psychiatry. It isn't going away. If it bothers you now, when you haven't even started, it might bother you more as you have to deal with it on a daily basis, in a hierarchical setting where you have to report to the people who are inappropriately psychoanalyzing you because, well, that's what they've learned to do over the last 50 years, and they long ago lost any idea of how else to interact with others.
Oh, and by the way, if you complain about this, that will be considered "anxiety."
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Girl cutting my hair: What do you do?
Me: I am a contractor and work from home.
Girl: Oh, that's so interesting!
(No further discussion occurs.)
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HarryMTieboutMD
My program doesn't have any analysts (and hasn't since they were shunned in the 1950s...), but it seems that at most academically relevant programs (with a few exceptions), most of the analysts left in academia are old perverted guys of whom the University/department can't rid themselves but who don't have any actual influence.
Most psychiatrists I know leave work at work and can have normal interactions (any social awkwardness pre dates residency training!) with anyone.
In my experience, it's mostly lay people (and actually other doctors who remembered the DSM from med school/MSWs who learned about it in SW school) who end up going around making diagnoses... just turn on the news to see how much "narcissism" is thrown around these days.
That said, when I'm forced to tell people what I do (which I try to avoid doing) and I get their opinions on mental health/get told "oh I know lots of psychologists"/all the another annoying crap, I just smile politely, fake interest, and when they are done talking change the subject.
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Hmm, the only hardcore analyst I knew in academia fit this exactly. Department wanted him to retire, had some sexual harassment allegations, was bat**** crazy, so they just sequestered him in an office out of the way and had him teach the bare minimum of classes.
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One of the challenges of being a psychiatrist and a psychologist relates to the line between supervision and psychotherapy. Clinical work challenges your sense of competence and their is a danger of utilizing supervision of trainees as a way of shoring that up. Kohut referred to it as narcissistic defense against feelings of incompetence.
In other words, I confront feelings of incompetence every day in my work with patients as I am faced with the incredibly complex challenges of working in mental health and the realistic limitations of the field compared to the magnitude of our patients problems. On the other hand, when I am trying to help a novice, I find that I am nowhere near as lost as them, thus I feel better. If I am not careful, that could lead to me subconsciously trying to keep them down to increase that positive feeling. Those who are doing this inappropriate analysis have likely fallen into this trap or they were just malignant narcissists to start with.
The counter to this is developing an increased ability to tolerate uncertainty.
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I think maybe a missing piece in this discussion is the self-deception component, to whit: people who are super good and successful at all their social interactions in all spheres of their life are a wee bit less likely to be attracted to careers that involve analyzing and thinking hard about human behavior.
Not saying that's everyone, but many seem to find other people fascinating in inverse proportion to how good they are at people.
To quote a classic from TLP "Shrinks go into psychiatry to avoid figuring themselves out. The best way to avoid judgment is to become the judge. Overruled. Overruled I say."
Not saying that's everyone, but many seem to find other people fascinating in inverse proportion to how good they are at people.
To quote a classic from TLP "Shrinks go into psychiatry to avoid figuring themselves out. The best way to avoid judgment is to become the judge. Overruled. Overruled I say."
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No one is going to be "analyzing" you in a one-hour interview. Yes, some (most in my experience) interviewers will want to know about you personally, more so than you may get in other fields, but I don't think anyone is going around diagnosing you or claiming that they understand who you are based on a one-hour interview. If you get that vibe, run away.
As a UTSW resident, the interview with the PD here does have that flavor. However, I assure you that that approach is not an attempt to "analyze" you - it is simply an attempt to get to know you, what's important to you, and how those things fit with your interest in psychiatry. Nothing more.
As a UTSW resident, the interview with the PD here does have that flavor. However, I assure you that that approach is not an attempt to "analyze" you - it is simply an attempt to get to know you, what's important to you, and how those things fit with your interest in psychiatry. Nothing more.
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If my UTSW interview started like that in any other aspect of life (getting to know me), I would have just walked away. I think UTSW is a great training location, but that interview is the oddest I've ever had - I've been on a lot of interviews too.
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I've been on some cringe-worthy interviews, including at the program I matched to, but I will say psychiatry is far from the only field to have these. I heard of a prospective orthopod being asked "If you had to pick one of the muppets to represent you, who would it be?"
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Those are awesome questions!
Ortho is a whole other beast though. My ortho friend felt pressured by residents to join them at a strip club the night prior to the interview while implying that the residents have a big say on the rank list. That's awkward.
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I didn't have a particularly strange interview, but it was more personal than the average. From what some people have said they make it sound like a psychotherapy session or something. I didn't have that experience.
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HarryMTieboutMD
Certain analysts who for whatever reason a given department lets interview applicants will throw some analytic techniques and make a formulation about the candidate (this happened to me). I will say, however, that this did not happen at UTSW- as soon as Dr. Brenner got a little to0 personal on his questioning (for me), I redirected the interview, and he was okay with that. I didn't feel judged or anything (as opposed to a lot of other interviewers on the trail...)
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The other side of this is that I have known sensitive applicants who call any appropriate personal question being psychoanalyzed when they should just answer the question like any other normal person. Anxiety can make us a bit paranoid. During my doctoral program interview, the director a classically trained analyst who interviewed me, asked me about countertransference, I answered with some personal information that would lead to me reacting strongly it's certain patients and that was it. I felt anxious and knew that he was evaluating my responses, but I also am comfortable discussing and disclosing my personal life appropriately. This is something that I discuss with patients all of the time. How to regulate appropriate self-disclosure. I often help them with the language to answer personal questions in a general way without needing to provide all of the details. For example, when someone asks about childhood, they could just say "a lot of bad things happened during my childhood." as opposed to "my parent prostituted me so they could get drugs".
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I certainly wouldn't call it a session, and the rest of the program was excellent enough to still rank UTSW highly. Dr Brenner went out of his way to bring in directors in my particular interests to give me a better view. He is certainly a nice guy, but the interview started off oddly. It went something like:
Dr Brenner: What about your childhood led you to become a psychiatrist?
Me: Brief true story
Dr Brenner: While that may have led you to choose medicine in general, think more specific to psychiatry. What comes to mind?
Me: A semi-true story with some embellishments that I believed would come off well.
Dr Brenner: Lets go deeper. Think about how that experience changed your lifelong trajectory.
Me: Complete BS mode now with who knows what. I don't personally feel like there is a childhood reason behind my choice of fields.
Dr Brenner: Great! Wasn't that enlightening? Now what can I tell you about us?
His whole demeanor shifted once it appeared like I made a "deeper realization" about my childhood. The childhood questions mixed with obvious pleasure in the event came across as odd to me. Maybe I just got lucky in other interviews in my life?
I certainly prefer questions that are more entertaining like:
What about you shouldn't I know?
Let's play 20 questions to determine what this is.
Describe the painter's meaning here.
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Hopefully those more qualified to answer will respond but this raises a huge red flag for me. I prefer a more laid back with minimal superficial, appropriate embellishments as absolutely needed when my attempts at redirection are met with resistance type approach. Although I get there are many who were moved to psychiatry because of mental illness in their family, with BPD being the biggest red flag for me when someone discloses that angle, isn’t there a better more superficial anecdote you can share without putting yourself in a vulnerable position? I really don’t think having a legit crazy Auntie or drug addicted Daddy increases your stock value. And call me paranoid, I prefer reserved or guarded, but the “delight factor” creeps me out and surely the panel can get to know you without delving so deep that the old dude spearheading the inquisition is pitching a pup tent in his khakis over the possibility of a disclosure of CSA.
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HarryMTieboutMD
No. This is a job interview, and you need to sell yourself as someone with the academic background and (medical) knowledge necessary to do the job. As much as personal experience (either your own and/or with family) may have influenced your choice in going into psychiatry, bringing this up during an interview is unprofessional. It will make you stand out (negatively) in most cases. I didn't realize how many applicants do things like this as some sort of false bravado in a vain attempt to "set themselves apart" until I became a resident and saw what applicants were and weren't doing.
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Yes it is okay. I think it is ridiculous to say that it is "unprofessional" to do so. Perhaps at the biologically oriented programs where they want to bury their heads in the sand (you definitely would not want to mention this kind of thing at Hopkins for example, and apparently WashU) but if you have a compelling narrative and have no other way of explaining where your interest in psychiatry came from then it is perfectly legitimate. I don't think it is legitimate in your personal statement however. Also, you have to be mindful that anything you bring up is fair game. You don't want to start crying or feeling uncomfortable with follow-up questions. You also don't want to turn this into some sort of therapy session or tell some tale of woe, or "over share". Basically, don't say anything you wouldn't say to someone you've never met before. You also don't want to spend more than a few minutes on doing so. I would also be more interested in applicants talking about their current and enduring interests rather than things from their childhood. I wanted to be a ghostbuster when I was a kid. That is just as relevant as "my mother had schizophrenia" to your current interest in the field.Definitely have other anecdotes to share! Had a PD tell me it was okay, which I was surprised by. Glad I ran it by SD
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666357
DO NOT bring your mother to the dinner with residents the night prior to interviews.
Yes, this happened.
No analysis/interpretation needed.
Yes, this happened.
No analysis/interpretation needed.
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Oh you silly Millennials....
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"But they said Significant Others were encouraged to attend!"
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Can I bring my emotional support echidna?
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Schlomo shout out!
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HarryMTieboutMD
The latter part of your post just reaffirmed my point. The applicant is trying to sell himself or herself to a prospective program, and even for the most competitive people, nothing is guaranteed (meaning, disclosure could go wrong very quickly). A marginal applicant is not going to impress the interviewer with "a compelling story", and a top applicant is going to have a good shot irrespective of self disclosure. I am not interested in anyone's personal business; it's a distraction and doesn't make the applicant stand out in a positive light.
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HarryMTieboutMD
In light of 5777, "It takes Chutzpah to be a shrink!"
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If you have an odd interview, let someone at the program know. Stuff like is on this thread is not the norm and should not happen. Even the most experienced psychoanalyst would need more than a one time 30 minute interview to discern much - so there is clearly no point or role for such in an interview.
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hey. that seems like a perfectly reasonable question.
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when i had no idea what the psychoanalytic stance was, it was odd, unnerving....to have no mirrored affect as one would sense in any normal encounter. but... I think now i would enjoy it.
i don't know that it's effective use of the wizard technology. job interviews have a well researched body of information--that i'm only aware of but am not familiar with. i don't know what evidence for subjecting unaware medical students to this type of interview would accomplish except to screen for junior wizards.
Or to take a more sociocultural approach...to screen for neurotic, wealthy junior shrinks who are no stranger to sweater vests and weekly therapy sessions. or in other words....the uppity nyc programs.
i don't know that it's effective use of the wizard technology. job interviews have a well researched body of information--that i'm only aware of but am not familiar with. i don't know what evidence for subjecting unaware medical students to this type of interview would accomplish except to screen for junior wizards.
Or to take a more sociocultural approach...to screen for neurotic, wealthy junior shrinks who are no stranger to sweater vests and weekly therapy sessions. or in other words....the uppity nyc programs.
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this was enormously helpful to me. thank you. seriously.
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shorthand. almost racist of me.
I love my merino wool red and blue sweater vest, that looks like it was tailored for me.
i traffic in provocation. facts bore me.
i know. it's in the DSM. it's my impermanent object relational context...
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HarryMTieboutMD
I hate them because they were the trademark attire of the former coach of the worst university in the country... scarlet and grey... vomit! I much prefer Maize and Blue with Khakis!
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HarryMTieboutMD
Except that it happens regularly. Of course I don't have any peer reviewed data, but my own experience and that of my friends from med school and current co-residents is reasonably suggestive. One of the problems is that credible academic departments still have analysts on faculty and let them interview applicants. Analysts are akin to Greek Life in undergrad: at one point fraternities and sororities were important organizations that dominated campus life, but they are largely irrelevant entities that yearn for past glory and are really a liability for the University. Same can be said for analysts in academia (for the most part)
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Splik, I am curious why you think WashU sticks its head in the sand and why we would consider it unprofessional? Psych illness is damn common so why I would be surprised if somebody has psych illness in their family and is why they are interested in the field.
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Because it's easy for people to lump in the "Biologic" programs as folks who "hide" behind RCTs, lab/diagnostic tests and medical history and physicals whilst ignoring all other aspects that drive human behavior. Of course the opposite can be said to about "Dynamic" programs which I think mostly just points out the human mind's incredible propensity to use artificial grouping when presented with numerous discrete data points.
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