Psychologists: do you regret going into the field due to having a comparatively low salary?

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biogirl236

biogirl236

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Annual Salaries
Psychiatrist- $182,000
Dentist- $160,000
Pharmacist- $122,000

You get the point..

Clinical Psychologist - $68,000

Does this disparity in income compared to those who have $90,000+ salaries keep you from living a nicer lifestyle with more expensive vacations, a nicer house etc.?

I'm not in this for the money. But I find myself distressed. Maybe I am more money-driven than I previously imagined?
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biogirl236 said:
Annual Salaries
Psychiatrist- $182,000
Dentist- $160,000
Pharmacist- $122,000
Lawyer- $115,000
Software Developer- $100,000
Economist- $99,000
Physician Assistant- $99,000
Chemical engineer- $98,000
Professor- $90,000-100,000+

Clinical Psychologist - $68,000

Does this disparity in income compared to those who have $90,000+ salaries keep you from living a nicer lifestyle with more expensive vacations, a nicer house etc.?
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Well, of course less money translates into less options. But you were looking at averages. Many make more. I make double that, almost.

If you were looking for opportunities that just "come to you" it's probably not a good fit/choice for you. I think this is been discussed in another thread of yours?

I have a great house and a great family.
 
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It depends on where you live, your debt level, what you want from life, etc. I started at $85k and now I make $100k+. If people complete fellowship training (health, primary care, forensic, Neuro, rehab, etc) the pay is generally fine. College counseling tends to pay poorly, but not everywhere.

I'm not sure where $68k came from. Internahip pay stinks (no idea what it is these days). Fellowship pay seems to be $35k (college counseling) to $55k+ (VA, AMC). Forensic and military are higher. Anyone taking a job for <$75k-$80k is probably not competitive, though most decent psychologists should be able to make that starting out.
 
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Yeah, I make quite a bit more than $68K. There are psychologist positions that pay even less than that, but there's a wide range.

Where'd you get that figure, anyway?
 
I went in eyes wide open. Decided what I wanted from the profession before I went in. Learned the hourly from the people who pay it, not what people were claiming to get paid. Did an honest SWOT analysis comparing myself to people whose drive and education were much higher than people with BAs. Reassessed periodically. Actually did the groundwork to learn without relying on people's reports.

I'm not the smartest person in the field, not the best looking, most charismatic, etc. But I also didn't want what everyone else wanted. What I did have I used towards my own very specific goal.
 
PSYDR said:
But I also didn't want what everyone else wanted. What I did have I used towards my own very specific goal.
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I do have a larp idea: get a group to dress up like the Alpha Beta frat from Revenge of the Nerds and then attack LARPers in the middle of their game.


 
Jegg said:
My undergrad is in computer science. Thanks to this thread, I'm going to program video game apps for the iPhone as soon as I become a licensed psychologist...
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I hope this is a joke.
 
Started at 80k with my first job as a psychologist and three years later I took a job where I double that average. If half the psychologists are really making less than 68k, then I would be astounded. Of course, if they count school psychologists who aren't really psychologists and who outnumber us then maybe that's where they get that number. Most of those folks make about 40k.
 
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68k sounds unusually low to me for folks who went to solid programs and are pursuing competitive employment (vs. the "hang a shingle/bought my degree/part time PP/etc." crowd). Especially for those with geographic flexibility. Nothing wrong with it for those who want it, but it makes up a sizable enough portion of the field I think it drives down salary estimates.

The further along I get, the more I realize that earnings are about finding and taking opportunities. The money is out there if you want to earn more. Its about balancing this with other priorities (e.g. family, sanity) and what elements of the job you actually want to do. Some people make 68k because their only skill is being vaguely competent at psychotherapy and they have little ambition to do more. Some people dream of being a professor at a teaching-focused college. Many of them pay like crap, but its what they want to do. Nothing wrong with that per se. Those of us who want higher salaries have other avenues to pursue. Its certainly not going to come as easily as it would if I were say...a surgeon. However, the way I would make that money as a surgeon (i.e. doing surgery) sounds absolutely horrible to me. I have zero regrets.
 
biogirl236 said:
Annual Salaries
Psychiatrist- $182,000
Dentist- $160,000
Pharmacist- $122,000
Lawyer- $115,000
Software Developer- $100,000
Economist- $99,000
Physician Assistant- $99,000
Chemical engineer- $98,000
Professor- $90,000-100,000+

Clinical Psychologist - $68,000

Does this disparity in income compared to those who have $90,000+ salaries keep you from living a nicer lifestyle with more expensive vacations, a nicer house etc.?

I'm not in this for the money. But I find myself distressed. I was raised to be financially independent but I fear I will be contributing very little to my family income and that makes me very depressed. Maybe I am more money-driven than I previously imagined?
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It's routine to make >$100,000/yr after a few years as a clinical psychologist working for the VA and this is very strictly a 40 hr./wk position (unless you choose, like I do sometimes, to do more research/reading in your off time, generally because you love the field itself and want to be your best...but it's quite optional). In addition, if I wanted to work 60+ hrs/wk (like most physicians do), I am sure I could probably create a supplementary private practice component that would add another 20-35k/yr. As it stands, I get to spend all day doing something that--although often intellectually and emotionally taxing--never ceases to be fascinating to me and is also something I feel good about doing. It has been my experience that you'll generally alter your lifestyle to fit whatever income level you achieve (I was pretty happy as a grad student making 18k per year) and you will quickly habituate to a higher salary.
 
WisNeuro said:
Yup, I make way over that figure. And, the jobs I'm interviewing at are substantial raises over my present amount. Zero debt, passive income, 40 hour workweeks. Nope, no huge regrets.
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If you wouldn't mind, could you talk more about your passive income?
 
$68,000 does seem low. Salary at the VA after one year (or a one year fellowship) and licensure is $71,000 or more depending on where you live.
 
psych.meout said:
If you wouldn't mind, could you talk more about your passive income?
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Mine is predominantly real estate. I own rental property. At the moment it's mostly useful for it's tax friendliness, lots f things I can use to drive up my deductions. Aside from that I have dividend yielding investments. I don't need that income, so the proceeds just go into re-investment. Once my wife is settled into a job post-residency, we'll be expanding the passive income streams. In the long run, wages do not build wealth, passive income does. If you're interested, White Coat Investor has a good book that gives you a good overview in general of finances and investments.
 
psych.meout said:
Anyone else doubt OP's ability to succeed in graduate level stats based on their understanding of averages as measures of central tendency, distributions, variances, etc.?
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Hey! Look I wrote this discussion thread when I was at a low point and I admit my emotions clouded my rational thinking. I didn't mean for this post to deter anyone from pursuing a job as a psychologist. PLEASE continue to pursue the field if you are passionate about it. Obviously there is a lot of variance in the pay scale for any job and I'm a 20 year old who doesn't really understand how the whole statistical distribution of a salary for a specific career works. This post was likely due to my own insecurities and resentment as a college student while seeing fellow students pursue majors in STEM fields. I have a lot of respect for people in this field and am adamant to pursue it. I appreciate everyone contributing to my discussion threads, no matter how bogus the questions are.
 
biogirl236 said:
Hey! Look I wrote this discussion thread when I was at a low point and I admit my emotions clouded my rational thinking. I didn't mean for this post to deter anyone from pursuing a job as a psychologist. PLEASE continue to pursue the field if you are passionate about it. Obviously there is a lot of variance in the pay scale for any job and I'm a 20 year old who doesn't really understand how the whole statistical distribution of a salary for a specific career works. This post was likely due to my own insecurities and resentment as a college student while seeing fellow students pursue majors in STEM fields. I have a lot of respect for people in this field and am adamant to pursue it. I appreciate everyone contributing to my discussion threads, no matter how bogus the questions are.
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No worries. 20 is very young; I'm sure you have a lot of questions and soul searching to do.

Maybe the list you pulled was from a source that isn't very reliable? $68,000 is pretty low for a Clinical Psychologist, in terms of average annual salary. I know a couple of people who have made approximately that as a starting salary in their first job (hospital setting), and in a location where the cost of living is low. And I know others who have made this amount annually because they have chosen to work part-time for awhile after having a child. Like the other posters have mentioned, there is a lot of variability in pay, depending on what route you pursue. Overall, the average Clinical Psychologist from a good school, solid training, etc., will make considerably more than $68,000/year.

I'm sure you will continue to have a lot of questions, that's normal, this is a long process! Good luck to you. 🙂
 
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WisNeuro said:
Mine is predominantly real estate. I own rental property. At the moment it's mostly useful for it's tax friendliness, lots f things I can use to drive up my deductions. Aside from that I have dividend yielding investments. I don't need that income, so the proceeds just go into re-investment. Once my wife is settled into a job post-residency, we'll be expanding the passive income streams. In the long run, wages do not build wealth, passive income does. If you're interested, White Coat Investor has a good book that gives you a good overview in general of finances and investments.
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Great advice. And if you're worried about the threat of inflation, there are great all weather funds out there.

Let your money work for you.
 
biogirl236 said:
Hey! Look I wrote this discussion thread when I was at a low point and I admit my emotions clouded my rational thinking. I didn't mean for this post to deter anyone from pursuing a job as a psychologist. PLEASE continue to pursue the field if you are passionate about it. Obviously there is a lot of variance in the pay scale for any job and I'm a 20 year old who doesn't really understand how the whole statistical distribution of a salary for a specific career works. This post was likely due to my own insecurities and resentment as a college student while seeing fellow students pursue majors in STEM fields. I have a lot of respect for people in this field and am adamant to pursue it. I appreciate everyone contributing to my discussion threads, no matter how bogus the questions are.
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I would say that it IS true that, if you don't really love the field (and most/all of its aspects as well as other domains of knowledge it touches on including psychopathology, philosophy, medicine, neuroscience, math/statistics, philosophy of science, personality theory, etc.)...I wouldn't recommend it as a career choice. Good quality doctoral programs are pretty darn competitive to gain entry to and, once there, the coursework is a demanding combination of a full Ph.D. (academic) program plus a whole lot of extra clinical work, supervision, and research/conferences. If you don't really like the combination of science/academia, research methods/stats, and clinical work (mostly assessment and therapy) with clients, you're likely to have a hard time making it through a program and internship. There are MUCH easier career paths that pay the same amount (or more) as clinical psychologist but if you truly love it, you may actually enjoy it more and more as they years go by.
 
biogirl236 said:
Hey! Look I wrote this discussion thread when I was at a low point and I admit my emotions clouded my rational thinking. I didn't mean for this post to deter anyone from pursuing a job as a psychologist. PLEASE continue to pursue the field if you are passionate about it. Obviously there is a lot of variance in the pay scale for any job and I'm a 20 year old who doesn't really understand how the whole statistical distribution of a salary for a specific career works. This post was likely due to my own insecurities and resentment as a college student while seeing fellow students pursue majors in STEM fields. I have a lot of respect for people in this field and am adamant to pursue it. I appreciate everyone contributing to my discussion threads, no matter how bogus the questions are.
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You're very hard on yourself. It's all good.
 
biogirl236 said:
Hey! Look I wrote this discussion thread when I was at a low point and I admit my emotions clouded my rational thinking. I didn't mean for this post to deter anyone from pursuing a job as a psychologist. PLEASE continue to pursue the field if you are passionate about it.
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I'm not sure who this is directed at. I don't think anyone here was deterred from a career in psychology by any of your posts.

Obviously there is a lot of variance in the pay scale for any job and I'm a 20 year old who doesn't really understand how the whole statistical distribution of a salary for a specific career works.
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You're kind of not getting the point. It's not about knowing the distributions for salaries specifically, it's about statistics in general. Understanding skews, variance, measures of central tendency, etc. are very basic stats, especially compared to what you'll have to master during grad school. You need to be able to look at facts and figures and critique them. You need to be able to see some data and figure out what questions you need to answer about that data and how to answer them. These are key concepts to success in grad school.

This post was likely due to my own insecurities and resentment as a college student while seeing fellow students pursue majors in STEM fields.
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Well, seeing how you have already posted a thread about this topic before:

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...gist-but-worried-about.1225656/#post-18220652

This seems like an area of considerable anxiety and distress for you. Maybe you should speak to your advis0r, your parents, and other people who can help you evaluate what your priorities are in life and what would be the best way of going about achieving them, especially if they might be somewhat in conflict.

I have a lot of respect for people in this field and am adamant to pursue it. I appreciate everyone contributing to my discussion threads, no matter how bogus the questions are.
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Ooh, this one is directed at me. Look, I'm not trying to be mean or insulting, I just want to make it clear that doctoral programs are heavy on stats and if you hate stats and/or have difficulty with them, you might want to rethink this path. As Fan_of_Meehl pointed out, if you really really like clinical psych, there are other easier paths.

And if you can't handle some snarkiness from a random, anonymous stranger on the internet, you might question whether you can handle the criticism necessary to develop as a psychologist. Being able to take criticism and build upon it is an important part of the supervision aspect of graduate training in clinical psychology.
 
There was a low point in my career when I was just out of school and made 45 k a year. I had this job for a little over a year at a community mental health center and actually did have some regrets. Low pay and I didn't enjoy the work environment. My impression was that psychology wasn't really valued. I wasn't a social worker or a psychiatrist and didn't feel like I fit in. I knew that being self employed was the only way for me to achieve what I wanted with my PhD. I have been in private practice for about 10 years now and absolutely love it. I do clinical and forensic work. I enjoy business and entrepreneurship and have quite a bit of passive income revenue, which is not income I make as a psychologist. It's funny, everyone at the gym is listening to music, I'm lifting weights while listening to business books, Dave Ramsey, and investment strategies. I work around 60 hours a week and my income generated as a psychologist is substantially higher than most psychiatrists. I'm happy with my career.
 
I'll echo what some others have said about that number (68K) being ridiculous and note that I make a lot more than that figure.

However, I think it is important to note that there are people who do make this figure (or less than that). There are a variety of reasons for that. One that has been mentioned is that people from crappy programs often can only get crappy jobs (e.g., markets are saturated in general, I want to live in CA/NY/Chicago only so I'll take lower reimbursement to be there, I didn't go to an accredited program or internship so I am not eligible for good jobs, etc).

But there are people that make that amount or less for other reasons. In our field, you have to account for how often people take part-time positions (I see that a ton), people that are private practice oriented and only work part-time (by choice or because they don't have a referral base), or even people who only work part-time because of clinical burnout. There are also people that take positions (e.g., psychology department/academia) that are not full year contracts. For instance, I am on a 9-month contract so my base in that position is proportionally lower. If that was the only thing that I did and I took every summer off, then my total salary would be closer to that figure.

Basically, take into account that the number of possible outcomes from getting a doctorate in psychology is higher than it is for other professions, generally speaking. As such, the range of income is going to be wider and there are more part time options than most careers.
 
Do I regret becoming a psychologist? Sometimes, but the things that frustrate me about this career are largely due to being in healthcare (emergeny call, insurance companies, etc.). Would psychiatry have helped in that regard? Maybe. However, I think that having my earnings tied to an hourly wage still is not the way to go. That said, when I finished I had multiple offers in the 75-85k range and that was without a formal fellowship ( but with a lot of experience in very in-demand areas of the field) and I make a good bit more than that now from working more hours. I think my direction in going to end up being similar to psycheval3 and wisneuro as I my wife's corporate job comes with better pay and benefits with more flexibility and I want to be home more as we start a family. So perhaps, less hours, less stress and more passive income management is in my future.

EDIT: while the poor training bell has been rung, I will also mention geographic flexibility. If you are tied down to an area or may be in the future, this may not be the career for you. There are many good opportunities, but often you need to be able to move to land the best position and training. I have seen with colleagues and now myself that good training is important, but settling down can be the struggle with out careers. This is especially true in two career couples.
 
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I will say that community mental health typically pays less (often a lot less). Depending on the cost of living in the area that one is settling down I've seen ranges from 55-70k for people starting out and choosing a CMHC. It's a little outdated, but APA's salary survey still gives a good jumping off point on what to expect working in various settings.

http://www.apa.org/workforce/publications/09-salaries/table-05.pdf
 
MJPsych said:
I will say that community mental health typically pays less (often a lot less). Depending on the cost of living in the area that one is settling down I've seen ranges from 55-70k for people starting out and choosing a CMHC. It's a little outdated, but APA's salary survey still gives a good jumping off point on what to expect working in various settings.

http://www.apa.org/workforce/publications/09-salaries/table-05.pdf
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My experience is that we are competing with social workers or counselors in these settings and being undervalued and/or underutilized. I worked in one to get my postdoc hours and then about six more months at a slightly higher salary until I found a job that would pay me for my skill set as a psychologist.
 
smalltownpsych said:
My experience is that we are competing with social workers or counselors in these settings and being undervalued and/or underutilized. I worked in one to get my postdoc hours and then about six more months at a slightly higher salary until I found a job that would pay me for my skill set as a psychologist.
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This is what happens when you work in an underfunded area that is largely a medicaid population. In the end it boils down to 2-3 things. Payor mix, what code you bill the most, or if you are on salary what area you work in (VA vs CMHC or UCC).
 
I am a newly licensed psychologist, and earn way more than that for a 40 hour a week schedule, with nice benefits and retirement. I could also earn a good bit more with work on the side. I am (mostly) happy in this field!
 
smalltownpsych said:
Just because some states allow master's level folks to call themselves psychologists in a school setting does not mean that I have to accept them as such or agree with it.
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It's different everywhere. In Europe, most Psychologists are at the Masters level. In Canada, many provinces have Masters level Psychologists . School Psychologists (except in some provinces) are regular Psychologists, with all the independence of any other Psychologist. USA is a very unique case when you look at the big picture.

I don't know the American system but in Canada, School Psychology and Applied Psychology is a specialty of Educational Psychology. You learn about developmental psychopathology, you learn cognitive assessment, academic assessment, and social/emotional/behv assessment, you take statistics courses, ethics, counselling, etc. You have to pass the EPPP, oral exam, etc..the same exams that a person with a Phd would do.

I'd agree with you that people shouldn't be able to call themselves Psychologists if they are not required to pass the EPP, oral exam, etc.

But this focus on "if you don't have a Phd..you aren't a Psychologist" is silly..and it's only really a discussion in the US. This is not because the US has higher standards, in fact your education system and healthcare system are a bit of a disaster, and this push to have a Phd standard is nothing more than self-interest at play.
 
Furthermore...

The idea that you should waste your time to get a Phd when you're almost exclusively doing assessments (in a very specific area, might I say), is loony tunes.

Second, if the argument is that a Psychologist is much more than just a clinician, and that they should have experience of conducting original research, preparing a thesis, and be qualified to teach at a University/College to prepare the next generation, well this is hardly a good argument unless Psychologists were mandated to perform all three functions. If a Clinical Psychologist gets a Phd, and decides to do only clinical work, and focus on let's say Mood Disorders...his many years of school were mostly a waste. That's just the reality. The fact that he did original research, to help anser very specific question, is hardly going to make a difference. They essentially have a skill that they aren't using.
 
barryggg said:
Furthermore...

The idea that you should waste your time to get a Phd when you're almost exclusively doing assessments (in a very specific area, might I say), is loony tunes.

Second, if the argument is that a Psychologist is much more than just a clinician, and that they should have experience of conducting original research, preparing a thesis, and be qualified to teach at a University/College to prepare the next generation, well this is hardly a good argument unless Psychologists were mandated to perform all three functions. If a Clinical Psychologist gets a Phd, and decides to do only clinical work, and focus on let's say Mood Disorders...his many years of school were mostly a waste. That's just the reality. The fact that he did original research, to help anser very specific question, is hardly going to make a difference. They essentially have a skill that they aren't using.
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Many of us would challenge the notion that a psychologist who was trained in how to evaluate and conduct research, yet is in a primarily clinical role, is "wasting" their schooling. Presumably/hopefully, this individual uses research to inform their clinical work. Many of us see all too often clinicians, with no research background, conducting "treatments" with either no empirical support, or treatments whose effects have been somewhat thoroughly debunked. And look at the MD world, where billions of dollars are wasted in prescribing medications which clearly do not work, even according to the massaged data from the pharmaceutical company that published it. Research competency is a skill that extends far beyond simply conducting research studies.
 
barryggg said:
Furthermore...

The idea that you should waste your time to get a Phd when you're almost exclusively doing assessments (in a very specific area, might I say), is loony tunes.

Second, if the argument is that a Psychologist is much more than just a clinician, and that they should have experience of conducting original research, preparing a thesis, and be qualified to teach at a University/College to prepare the next generation, well this is hardly a good argument unless Psychologists were mandated to perform all three functions. If a Clinical Psychologist gets a Phd, and decides to do only clinical work, and focus on let's say Mood Disorders...his many years of school were mostly a waste. That's just the reality. The fact that he did original research, to help anser very specific question, is hardly going to make a difference. They essentially have a skill that they aren't using.
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This is a terribly concrete and superficial understanding of the scientist-practitioner model of training in clinical psychology.
 
barryggg said:
It's different everywhere. In Europe, most Psychologists are at the Masters level. In Canada, many provinces have Masters level Psychologists . School Psychologists (except in some provinces) are regular Psychologists, with all the independence of any other Psychologist. USA is a very unique case when you look at the big picture.

I don't know the American system but in Canada, School Psychology and Applied Psychology is a specialty of Educational Psychology. You learn about developmental psychopathology, you learn cognitive assessment, academic assessment, and social/emotional/behv assessment, you take statistics courses, ethics, counselling, etc. You have to pass the EPPP, oral exam, etc..the same exams that a person with a Phd would do.

I'd agree with you that people shouldn't be able to call themselves Psychologists if they are not required to pass the EPP, oral exam, etc.

But this focus on "if you don't have a Phd..you aren't a Psychologist" is silly..and it's only really a discussion in the US. This is not because the US has higher standards, in fact your education system and healthcare system are a bit of a disaster, and this push to have a Phd standard is nothing more than self-interest at play.
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erg923 said:
This is a terribly concrete and superficial understanding of the scientist-practitioner model of training in clinical psychology.
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It's not a superficial understanding. I understand the model. Good programs are good programs because they not only realize the importance of research informing clinical practice, but they realize it's the basis of being a good Psychologist. This is why I believe a good program can be quite slanted toward the clinical side (ie most school psychology programs) but be very strong overall, as long as they emphasize this, and apply it in training. I think some of you are assuming that this doesn't really exist in such programs, and that's just totally wrong.

Do I think that ideally programs should balance both, and that you should get plenty and equal experience of both...sure..but there is 0% proof that the Phd experience (working in a lab, and doing specific research on a very specific question), results in being a much better consumer of research. That is ultimately what you need to be.

So, that brings me back to my original point..if a Phd Psychologist decides against doing original research (which imo is largely the purpose of doing specific research and doing a thesis)..then I don't think that experience makes them a better consumer of research in a clinical context. Do I think it makes them totally competent at doing original research..absolutely. A Masters level person has no experience to conduct their own studies.
 
Also, if you work in a clinical context, and you're trained to be a Psychologist, then you're a Clinical Psychologist. This idea that School Psychologists don't learn clinical psychology is absurd. (ps I'm not talking about any specialist programs) For gods sake, you can't work in a Clinical context, diagnosing a segment of the population (students, usually in school context), without learning about developmental psychopathology, how to do cognitive assessments, social/beh assessment, stats and research methods, etc

What do you think people in School Psychology programs learn about? how to spot psychopathology based on the temperature in the room!?!?!
 
barryggg said:
Also, if you work in a clinical context, and you're trained to be a Psychologist, then you're a Clinical Psychologist. This idea that School Psychologists don't learn clinical psychology is absurd. (ps I'm not talking about any specialist programs) For gods sake, you can't work in a Clinical context, diagnosing a segment of the population (students, usually in school context), without learning about developmental psychopathology, how to do cognitive assessments, social/beh assessment, stats and research methods, etc

What do you think people in School Psychology programs learn about? how to spot psychopathology based on the temperature in the room!?!?!
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So is it your contention that there is no reason for a Clinical Psychologist in the US to have a doctorate?
 
biogirl236 said:
Annual Salaries
Psychiatrist- $182,000
Dentist- $160,000
Pharmacist- $122,000

You get the point..

Clinical Psychologist - $68,000

Does this disparity in income compared to those who have $90,000+ salaries keep you from living a nicer lifestyle with more expensive vacations, a nicer house etc.?

I'm not in this for the money. But I find myself distressed. Maybe I am more money-driven than I previously imagined?
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Way too low....220-250k for 40 hrs a week is par for the course now.
 
smalltownpsych said:
So is it your contention that there is no reason for a Clinical Psychologist in the US to have a doctorate?
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The rest of the world doesn't seem to think it's necessary. My friends from Europe laugh at how long it takes to become a Clinical Psychologist in the US. Over there, for the majority of countries, you need a Masters. My personal opinion (which obv doesn't matter in the big scope of things), is that we should let states/provinces decide based on their particular circumstances. People who are very interested in doing original research and teaching at the highest level, would still have that choice, and you need those people. They are the ones who will advance the field, and teach the next generation. But I don't think we need to go the next step and say that you really aren't a Clinical Psychologist if you don't have a Phd, or that people shouldn't be able to call themselves that.

I'd want to get all your thoughts on this theory..but I get the sense that the real problem in the US is that the for-profit/professional schools, and in general many lower-tier private schools (which just stink), are producing very incompetent providers, and then this is causing the perception that there are real Psychologists..and then those that are not...and this group for a lot of people includes Masters people..the Masters people are thrown in with the individuals who go to crappy for-profit/professional schools.

Canada and Europe have largely public institutions, so while we struggle to have a Harvard, our top schools tend to be a bit below that, (University of Toronto, UBC, etc) but we also don't have the really bad schools. (professional schools). And I think this is largely why I don't hear such a sentiment here, and why a lot of provinces are totally comfortable with having Masters level Psychologists.
 
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barryggg said:
The rest of the world doesn't seem to think it's necessary. My friends from Europe laugh at how long it takes to become a Clinical Psychologist in the US. Over there, for the majority of countries, you need a Masters. My personal opinion (which obv doesn't matter in the big scope of things), is that we should let states/provinces decide based on their particular circumstances. People who are very interested in doing original research and teaching at the highest level, would still have that choice, and you need those people. They are the ones who will advance the field, and teach the next generation. But I don't think we need to go the next step and say that you really aren't a Clinical Psychologist if you don't have a Phd, or that people shouldn't be able to call themselves that.

I'd want to get all your thoughts on this theory..but I get the sense that the real problem in the US is that the for-profit/professional schools, and in general many lower-tier private schools (which just stink), are producing very incompetent providers, and then this is causing the perception that there are real Psychologists..and then those that are not...and this group for a lot of people includes Masters people..the Masters people are thrown in with the individuals who go to crappy for-profit/professional schools.

Canada and Europe have largely public institutions, so while we struggle to have a Harvard, our top schools tend to be a bit below that, (University of Toronto, UBC, etc) but we also don't have the really bad schools. (professional schools). And I think this is largely why I don't hear such a sentiment here, and why a lot of provinces are totally comfortable with having Masters level Psychologists.
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Okay, just wanted to clarify that. I don't think debating this point would be that productive since we are relying on subjective opinion and it is not likely that we could do cross-cultural comparisons that would make much sense.
 
barryggg said:
It's not a superficial understanding. I understand the model. Good programs are good programs because they not only realize the importance of research informing clinical practice, but they realize it's the basis of being a good Psychologist. This is why I believe a good program can be quite slanted toward the clinical side (ie most school psychology programs) but be very strong overall, as long as they emphasize this, and apply it in training. I think some of you are assuming that this doesn't really exist in such programs, and that's just totally wrong.

Do I think that ideally programs should balance both, and that you should get plenty and equal experience of both...sure..but there is 0% proof that the Phd experience (working in a lab, and doing specific research on a very specific question), results in being a much better consumer of research. That is ultimately what you need to be.

So, that brings me back to my original point..if a Phd Psychologist decides against doing original research (which imo is largely the purpose of doing specific research and doing a thesis)..then I don't think that experience makes them a better consumer of research in a clinical context. Do I think it makes them totally competent at doing original research..absolutely. A Masters level person has no experience to conduct their own studies.
Click to expand...

barryggg said:
The rest of the world doesn't seem to think it's necessary. My friends from Europe laugh at how long it takes to become a Clinical Psychologist in the US. Over there, for the majority of countries, you need a Masters. My personal opinion (which obv doesn't matter in the big scope of things), is that we should let states/provinces decide based on their particular circumstances. People who are very interested in doing original research and teaching at the highest level, would still have that choice, and you need those people. They are the ones who will advance the field, and teach the next generation. But I don't think we need to go the next step and say that you really aren't a Clinical Psychologist if you don't have a Phd, or that people shouldn't be able to call themselves that.

I'd want to get all your thoughts on this theory..but I get the sense that the real problem in the US is that the for-profit/professional schools, and in general many lower-tier private schools (which just stink), are producing very incompetent providers, and then this is causing the perception that there are real Psychologists..and then those that are not...and this group for a lot of people includes Masters people..the Masters people are thrown in with the individuals who go to crappy for-profit/professional schools.

Canada and Europe have largely public institutions, so while we struggle to have a Harvard, our top schools tend to be a bit below that, (University of Toronto, UBC, etc) but we also don't have the really bad schools. (professional schools). And I think this is largely why I don't hear such a sentiment here, and why a lot of provinces are totally comfortable with having Masters level Psychologists.
Click to expand...

You're kind of hurting your own argument. A significant part of what makes FSPS programs and other low quality doctoral programs so inferior to the good PhD and PsyD programs (e.g. funding, match rates, EPPP pass rates, licensure rates, career outcomes, etc.) is their poor focus on research. They market themselves as being superior in preparing students for careers in clinical practice, generally to the neglect of research, but they do not provide any better clinical training than the aforementioned "good" programs. Of course, this is not the only source of problems in their training, but the paucity of research surely contributes to disparities in competency in a significant way.

Without significant training and experience in performing it, one is definitely less likely to be a proficient consumer of research. Sure, one could garner the skills to competently understand and utilize research in an ad hoc manner on their own, but masters' programs and the inferior doctoral programs to which I referred earlier generally don't provide this training. This is why a bettor would more wisely place their money on the psychologist from a "good" program being the more competent clinician and consumer of research than providers from either masters' programs or the inferior doctoral programs.
 
psych.meout said:
Without significant training and experience in performing it, one is definitely less likely to be a proficient consumer of research. Sure, one could garner the skills to competently understand and utilize research in an ad hoc manner on their own, but masters' programs and the inferior doctoral programs to which I referred earlier generally don't provide this training. This is why a bettor would more wisely place their money on the psychologist from a "good" program being the more competent clinician and consumer of research than providers from either masters' programs or the inferior doctoral programs.
Click to expand...

This is an opinion you have. Up here in Canada Masters level people pass the EPPP at the same rate as Phd people. They have very high license rates as well. Funding is not a relevant thing for some programs that are course based.
 
barryggg said:
This is an opinion you have. Up here in Canada Masters level people pass the EPPP at the same rate as Phd people. They have very high license rates as well. Funding is not a relevant thing for some programs that are course based.
Click to expand...

Where is this data? I haven't seen it broken down like this.
 
Nor do I accept the validity of passing the EPPP as a direct index of clinical acumen.

My recollection of it was that it was heavily weighted (in its composition) toward dependency on using their particular proprietary study materials ($$$) rather than being some sort of broad-ranging valid metric of competency as a clinical psychologist. If it was that, it'd figure into psychology graduate and internship training program curricula.
 
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