Psychologists: do you regret going into the field due to having a comparatively low salary?

[DrTisMe]

Depends a little on your situation. If you have additional investment money after 401k and IRAs, you could invest in non-retirement accounts that provide dividends. I throw some extra each year into more of those. It's fairly easy to liquidate in case of need, although there is always the risk of market downturn. The other method I have is rental property. I'm fairly handy, so I can do easy to moderate repairs myself, and it's in a college market so I always get grad students to rent it out. That provides a lot of tax benefits, and I can also visit family when I go back to check on my property, so travel can be written off as a business expense. Rental property will probably be what I expand as my wife transitions from resident to full-time physician and we can project budgets a lot more stably in the future. If you don't have the time to actively manage a property, you could get a mgmt company to do it for you, although they usually charge around 10 of the rental income and it changes your tax structure a little if you are an active or passive manager/owner.

Oh, that kind of passive income. That's exactly my strategy. Just bought an office building for my own office space, and renting out the other offices. Makes my own offices overhead free (income from the other offices covers it and the mortgage) and I can customize my layout without worrying about a landlord raising my rent. I'm lucky that my husband has some real estate management experience and is willing to do the bulk of the work in his spare time.

I'm trying to figure out how to generate passive income from my current business. I've been writing a book, on and off, for the last five years, and if I could figure out how to free up some time from direct earning, I could finish the thing. I've come to realize it will never be done unless I set aside time for it (as in, block out time in my appointment calendar the way I would for a patient) but there's that need to earn my salary!

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[Pragma]

I'm all for reducing unnecessary indentured servitude, but you can't really reduce much for a lot of specialties. I am on board with what T4C suggested above.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm trying to figure out how to generate passive income from my current business. I've been writing a book, on and off, for the last five years, and if I could figure out how to free up some time from direct earning, I could finish the thing. I've come to realize it will never be done unless I set aside time for it (as in, block out time in my appointment calendar the way I would for a patient) but there's that need to earn my salary!

The book thing is hard. Unless it's some kind of pop psych, self-help, or immensely popular book, it's hard to make any decent money on. It's a huge time sink that could end up a push, or even losing money if you spend anything on self-publishing. I feel like I'm personally better off drumming up some forensic work.

 

[DrTisMe]

What part do you cut?

For med students I can see...maaaaaybe 4th year of residency for certain specialities, but I still think that is asking for trouble. As someone who is active in residency training and very involved in medical education, I could see an argument for less hr per year, but not enough to cut a year or more off.

As for clinical psych training, I'd love to cut certain classes *cough* projective assessment *cough* and maybe cut some of the more recent crazy high practica #'s in favor of getting dissertations done sooner. Also, a limited licensure for internship (to help w cost to training sites).

This is true. There was a certain amount of "fluff" in my PhD program and unnecessary "make work" on some practica or during internship that could probably be trimmed, but not all that much. I'll never use most of my research training, but I am very glad I know how to critically analyze research studies to make decisions about which techniques I want to be further trained in, and which only offer the appearance of effectiveness. I honestly don't think much of my training could be dispensed with, even though it was long and rigorous.

 

[DrTisMe]

The book thing is hard. Unless it's some kind of pop psych, self-help, or immensely popular book, it's hard to make any decent money on. It's a huge time sink that could end up a push, or even losing money if you spend anything on self-publishing. I feel like I'm personally better off drumming up some forensic work.

I make the bulk of my "non psychology" money off public speaking. I have expertise in a particular area, and my agent tells me that the way to get to the next level in this particular area is to write a book. I already have the credentials and experience for my credibility.

Yes, it's a self-help book. Don't knock them - highest grossing segment of publishing is self-help. Even in the short term - I recently spoke at a conference, and a colleague of mine (I use "colleague" loosely - he has an LCSW from an online school) wrote a book (it's a really, really derivative book that someone ghostwrote for him......) he ended up making a fortune selling copies of his book at the venue. That's a passive income stream right there. As much as I find the guy sleazy (If you're going to quote Dale Carnegie, ATTRIBUTE your quote. Or don't they teach that skill in online diploma mills?) he probably doubled his income from that. I can both despise the guy....and learn from him.

Unlike him, I have a solid research base about a particular topic, a technique that I have statistically demonstrated to be effective (dissertation research), and 10+ years of experience treating kids with this particular subset of symptoms. I was also a freelance writer throughout grad school, so I know how to write readable copy. For me, the book is about solidifying my reputation in this field, not necessarily a money-maker on its own. My agent tells me simply being able to pitch someone as an author of a book on a topic makes that person that much more "bookable." So it's my next professional step upward.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

My agent tells me simply being able to pitch someone as an author of a book on a topic makes that person that much more "bookable." So it's my next professional step upward.

Your agent is spot on.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I make the bulk of my "non psychology" money off public speaking. I have expertise in a particular area, and my agent tells me that the way to get to the next level in this particular area is to write a book. I already have the credentials and experience for my credibility.

Yes, it's a self-help book. Don't knock them - highest grossing segment of publishing is self-help. Even in the short term - I recently spoke at a conference, and a colleague of mine (I use "colleague" loosely - he has an LCSW from an online school) wrote a book (it's a really, really derivative book that someone ghostwrote for him......) he ended up making a fortune selling copies of his book at the venue. That's a passive income stream right there. As much as I find the guy sleazy (If you're going to quote Dale Carnegie, ATTRIBUTE your quote. Or don't they teach that skill in online diploma mills?) he probably doubled his income from that. I can both despise the guy....and learn from him.

Unlike him, I have a solid research base about a particular topic, a technique that I have statistically demonstrated to be effective (dissertation research), and 10+ years of experience treating kids with this particular subset of symptoms. I was also a freelance writer throughout grad school, so I know how to write readable copy. For me, the book is about solidifying my reputation in this field, not necessarily a money-maker on its own. My agent tells me simply being able to pitch someone as an author of a book on a topic makes that person that much more "bookable." So it's my next professional step upward.

I think there's a lot to be said for writing a legitimate (as in evidence-based) self-help or related book. Being able to funnel down the multitude of solid and not-so-solid findings in a particular content area and then make it comprehensible and meaningful to the majority of the non-psychology/non-academia population is no small task.

 

[NeuroTrope]

Become a board eligible neuropsychologist.

I say board eligible/certified so you can participate in the civil/worker's compensation arena. With the right connections you can net 150k right after post-doc and some of the senior folks are around 400-500k. This is in combination with other jobs out there depending on the individual (consultation, private pay clientele, some salaried work).

Hours vary depending on workload but at least half if not more can be done at home.

That said, the route to ABCN from a solid training program is quite difficult and not for everyone.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

All true...but highly competitive. Forensic work (which is where workers compensation work leans) is the deep end of the ocean, though the pay is great. For must ppl it is 4-5yr of grad school, 1yr internship, 2yr post-doc and then ~1yr to go through the boarding process.

A person has to really like/love assessment bc it isn't something a person does, "on the side". Some generalist try this, but their reports tend to be junk. Clinicians lacking legit training still do the work (far outside of their skillset), but it isn't something I'd recommend.

 

[NeuroTrope]

All true...but highly competitive. Forensic work (which is where workers compensation work leans) is the deep end of the ocean, though the pay is great. For must ppl it is 4-5yr of grad school, 1yr internship, 2yr post-doc and then ~1yr to go through the boarding process.

A person has to really like/love assessment bc it isn't something a person does, "on the side". Some generalist try this, but their reports tend to be junk. Clinicians lacking legit training still do the work (far outside of their skillset), but it isn't something I'd recommend.

Very true. We feed off the incompetent clinicians (well, my seniors do...I'm just wading in) since they strengthen our side with their shoddy work. Don't do forensics until you are with the right folks, very self-motivated AND have the right credentials.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Very true. We feed off the incompetent clinicians (well, my seniors do...I'm just wading in) since they strengthen our side with their shoddy work. Don't do forensics until you are with the right folks, very self-motivated AND have the right credentials.

100% accurate. Throughout training it was drilled into me that whatever I write in a report I better be able to defend on a cross. Will this realistically happen…it depends on the type of case, but that level of confidence is needed…or a clinician shouldn't put it in writing. I've seen enough bad reports and ugly crosses to be careful about how I write what I write. Now that I'm involved in some forensic work (nature of the beast because I do quite a bit of workers comp evals), I have seen first hand why my mentors were so insistent on certain things.

Having proper mentorship is HUGE. It's not only about the training, but also to know about state laws (in general) and also case law (if you in fact provide assessment services for forensic cases). The process lends itself to certain types of personalities, though I've seen a range of types do well. I actually enjoy the adversarial nature of the legal side, but I wouldn't want that to be the bulk of my work because it can be stressful and a lot more work goes into each case than a standard clinical eval.

 

[Groupthink]

I am curious as to what the expected income range is for college counseling center work. This is very much a passion for me, as I focused on UCC work on internship and now in postdoc/early career, but I'm seeing salary caps at around $65k for state schools in non-Director positions. Is that about average for early-career, or for UCCs in general? How do I move more towards the 6 digit mark in UCC work -- is that even possible? (perhaps at a private school?)

 

[Ollie123]

I am curious as to what the expected income range is for college counseling center work. This is very much a passion for me, as I focused on UCC work on internship and now in postdoc/early career, but I'm seeing salary caps at around $65k for state schools in non-Director positions. Is that about average for early-career, or for UCCs in general? How do I move more towards the 6 digit mark in UCC work -- is that even possible? (perhaps at a private school?)

That sounds about right to me for CCs. Though I can't say I've researched it thoroughly ...65k early on is actually better than I think many places provide - I've seen around that among folks with with more experience. Its a setting that as a whole is known for paying like crap, which is what deters a lot of people.

That said, its also known for being very cushy with regards to hours/demands/productivity compared to other settings. If its a passion, you might be best to treat that as a base job and use the extra time to get side gigs going.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Yep, I'd imagine extra-work work would be the best way to push the salary toward six figures. As Ollie said, UCC's have traditionally had a reputation for being a bit more cushy, although some folks on here have recently mentioned that this has been changing of late. Not sure RE: private schools, although I don't know if I'd expect that to pay all that much more.

 

[calimich]

I am curious as to what the expected income range is for college counseling center work. This is very much a passion for me, as I focused on UCC work on internship and now in postdoc/early career, but I'm seeing salary caps at around $65k for state schools in non-Director positions. Is that about average for early-career, or for UCCs in general? How do I move more towards the 6 digit mark in UCC work -- is that even possible? (perhaps at a private school?)

Salaries at UCCs are typically a bit lower than other institutional work. However, the type of university and region of the country matter. For example, UC Berkeley has several openings for entry level positions with starting salary ranging from $67-137k. Years since licensure and language ability will demand the higher end of the range; iirc, straight-out-of-postdoc starts just north of 90k. Of course, COL is higher in CA.

https://tcs.ucop.edu/tcs/jsp/nonAcademicTitlesDetail.htm?titleCode=004393&campus=01&subLoc=**

Also, some university systems allow for dual appointments (e.g., 70% counseling-30% teaching) and the opportunity to earn tenure. And, as others have said, opening a private practice on the side is a good way to bring in more $$.

 

[randomapplicant22]

Also, some university systems allow for dual appointments (e.g., 70% counseling-30% teaching) and the opportunity to earn tenure. And, as others have said, opening a private practice on the side is a good way to bring in more $$.

How would one find a dual appointment such as this? Would it be listed in the job ad or is it something to ask and organize with the employer?

 

[calimich]

How would one find a dual appointment such as this? Would it be listed in the job ad or is it something to ask and organize with the employer?

It could be either. Always good practice to thoroughly read the job and to ask if you have questions not addressed by the ad. Networking also helps here. UCC work, like other institutional settings, really is a "small world" and talking with the TD/clinic director/supervisor about your career goals should be helpful.

 

[deleted760483]

I don't understand how any full time clinical psychologist is making $68,000, let alone less than that. I don't know anyone who makes less than 80K and I live in the Midwest. I know master's level counselors who make in the high 50s and low 60s, or more in some cases. I've seen this number a lot so there must be something to it, but it just seems wrong to me.