PsyD cohort sizes/Nova

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WisNeuro said:
Sweet, dueling anecdotes.
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Not dueling, I don’t at all doubt @boomshakalaka’s experience. I think any clinician that’s been in the field for a hot minute has plenty of these examples from LP’s that were educated at various types of programs.
 
GradStudent2020 said:
Not dueling, I don’t at all doubt @boomshakalaka’s experience. I think any clinician that’s been in the field for a hot minute has plenty of these examples from LP’s that were educated at various types of programs.
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Dueling was not in reference to doubting the veracity of the anecdotes.
 
futureapppsy2 said:
Out of curiosity due to the recent Argosy closure, I've been looking up cohort sizes for PsyD programs. The Argosy and Alliant campuses generally had yearly cohorts in the 50-60 range at the beginning of this ten-year span, and they seem to have leveled off to around 25-35 or so in recent years. Chicago School started higher but is at the same 20-30 student per cohort level now. I also looked at other PsyD programs for comparison, and they tend to have yearly cohort sizes of about 20-30 per year, with some going from the high to low end of that range over the ten year span. One glaring exception to this is Nova, which has cohort sizes of about 85 students consistently over the past ten years! These are the highest numbers I've seen, with even Fielding having cohorts of 50-60 or so for their PhD (and like 25% attrition in the first year, so... yeah). According to their disclosure data, Nova's graduated 709 PyDs in the past ten years (plus another 139 PhDs). Even among FSPS, most schools report somewhere between 300-400 graduates over ten years. Even combining Alliant's San Diego PhD and PsyD graduates, you "only" get about 630 graduates total over the ten year span, less than Nova's PsyDs alone.

I've known some excellent Nova graduates, but what gives with these abnormally large cohort sizes?
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I have heard Nova has some "big names" associated with their faculty. I have also heard these faculty members don't actually play a significant role in regard to training.
 
LadyHalcyon said:
I have heard Nova has some "big names" associated with their faculty. I have also heard these faculty members don't actually play a significant role in regard to training.
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There is one big name down there for Neuro, and he's one of the ones who writes the nearly identical letters.
 
GradStudent2020 said:
Not dueling, I don’t at all doubt @boomshakalaka’s experience. I think any clinician that’s been in the field for a hot minute has plenty of these examples from LP’s that were educated at various types of programs.
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Sure, bad practice comes from people from a variety of programs but I am really too tired to do the tautology dance and argue against someone’s cognitive dissonance. I think ClinicalABA has done the best job laying out how FSPS students are evaluated by actual clinicians. The fact that Nova and CSPP have offered to take in Argosy students really cements the notion that these schools are just trying to bring in $$$. Hopefully this is the first step in shutting their doors too. Meanwhile, I am going to continue making my life easier by filing applications from these schools in the round filing bin next to my desk.
 
GradStudent2020 said:
Not dueling, I don’t at all doubt @boomshakalaka’s experience. I think any clinician that’s been in the field for a hot minute has plenty of these examples from LP’s that were educated at various types of programs.
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By "dueling anecdotes," he means that anecdotes aren't really rigorous empirical data, not that one of you is doubting the other or that only the anecdotes from one person are correct. For every anecdote from one person, another person likely has an equally-true, contradictory anecdote. This is why scientific research is important. It allows us to minimize bias, heuristics, sampling errors, etc. We need to look at things in aggregate, which is why things like internship match rates, EPPP pass rates, licensure rates, employment, earnings, and other quantitative outcome metrics are so important in evaluating programs and their graduates.

Yes, you may encounter absolutely fabulous researchers and clinicians from a mediocre to poor quality program and terrible clinicians from prestigious programs. The point is to look at what the training and graduates are like on average so limited resources can be dedicated to obtaining the best, most efficient outcomes.
 
psych.meout said:
By "dueling anecdotes," he means that anecdotes aren't really rigorous empirical data, not that one of you is doubting the other or that only the anecdotes from one person are correct. For every anecdote from one person, another person likely has an equally-true, contradictory anecdote. This is why scientific research is important. It allows us to minimize bias, heuristics, sampling errors, etc. We need to look at things in aggregate, which is why things like internship match rates, EPPP pass rates, licensure rates, employment, earnings, and other quantitative outcome metrics are so important in evaluating programs and their graduates.

Yes, you may encounter absolutely fabulous researchers and clinicians from a mediocre to poor quality program and terrible clinicians from prestigious programs. The point is to look at what the training and graduates are like on average so limited resources can be dedicated to obtaining the best, most efficient outcomes.
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As WisNeuro shares personal anecdotes on nearly every thread he participates in, this is an interesting summary/definition of what you think he was trying to say.

Not one that I needed, but... thanks?
 
psych.meout said:
We need to look at things in aggregate, which is why things like internship match rates, EPPP pass rates, licensure rates, employment, earnings, and other quantitative outcome metrics are so important in evaluating programs and their graduates.
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Was about to post something similar. At the end of the day, regardless of our biases for or against large-cohort fsps, there are objective measures that can’t really be disputed.
 
boomshakalaka said:
Sure, bad practice comes from people from a variety of programs but I am really too tired to do the tautology dance and argue against someone’s cognitive dissonance. I think ClinicalABA has done the best job laying out how FSPS students are evaluated by actual clinicians. The fact that Nova and CSPP have offered to take in Argosy students really cements the notion that these schools
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mlwg1 said:
Was about to post something similar. At the end of the day, regardless of our biases for or against large-cohort fsps, there are objective measures that can’t really be disputed.
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100% agree.
 
It's also important to keep in mind that, unless I'm mistaken, objective measures have not demonstrated that graduates of FSPS programs provide psychotherapy less effectively.
 
Peacemaker36 said:
It's also important to keep in mind that, unless I'm mistaken, objective measures have not demonstrated that graduates of FSPS programs provide psychotherapy less effectively.
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Also 100% agree.

This is such a great point. It’s not *that* difficult to have a more nuanced view of these programs informed by the objective data as well as anectodatal information provided by students/graduates of the programs and/or individuals with experience working with students/graduates. I really appreciated ClinicalABA’s comments for that reason.
 
WisNeuro said:
Single-shot flintlock is really the only way to go. Just ask Aaron Burr.
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I would but he was killed from being bored to death by FSPS graduates trying to nit-pick and fault-find data to claim that psychology's version of Caribbean-graduate MDs are just as good, while multi-generational educated upper-middle class white people who had the grooming and opportunities to stay a class above preserve their class through shaming and gatekeeping. Boring boring.
 
Peacemaker36 said:
It's also important to keep in mind that, unless I'm mistaken, objective measures have not demonstrated that graduates of FSPS programs provide psychotherapy less effectively.
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GradStudent2020 said:
Also 100% agree.

This is such a great point. It’s not *that* difficult to have a more nuanced view of these programs informed by the objective data as well as anectodatal information provided by students/graduates of the programs and/or individuals with experience working with students/graduates. I really appreciated ClinicalABA’s comments for that reason.
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I appreciate your appreciation 😉

I want to be clear- From my observations and interactions with students and graduates of these different program, I have reached the conclusion that the modal student from a FPSP is a less effective clinician than the modal student from a small cohort uni-based training program. Students at the upper end of the distribution of the FSPS are comparable to students from small cohort uni-based training programs. However, the FSPS skill distribution has much greater variance, and those not in the upper ranks are not good clinicians. Conversely, those in the lower ranks of small uni-based students who are in there 3rd+ year tend to still be, modally speaking, competent clinicians, as those with glaring deficiencies are "sent home" or, at the very least, not permitted to represent the program at external sites. I have also conclude that there is no comparison between the students abilities to conduct and use empirical research to guide their clinical practice, with FSPS students far behind their small cohort uni-based comrades in this area.

I now have the the time and ability to review all applications with some scrutiny. In the past (e.g., as faculty on an APA approved internship site) I didn't, and thus often used the "trash-can" heuristic cited by others. Did I miss any good candidates? Probably, but the end result was a more manageable stack of pretty good apps to weed through with appropriate level of scrutiny.
 
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Peacemaker36 said:
It's also important to keep in mind that, unless I'm mistaken, objective measures have not demonstrated that graduates of FSPS programs provide psychotherapy less effectively.
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We should also keep in mind that such data would only be for graduates who get licensed to provide said psychotherapy in the first place. We do have objective data suggesting poorer EPPP passing rates and licensure rates for said programs. You're then comparing only graduates that have jumped over certain hurdles. For one group, that will be better representative of their students as a whole than the other.
 
As I sit here waiting for a kiddo to show for round 2 of assessment (without much faith that s/he will show- uggh, I hate half-finished testing). thinking to much about this thread, I have come to another conclusion. For prospective students, It actually does not matter if the bias against these programs is justified or not, empirically supported or not, etc. What matter is that it exists and has the potential to cause students and graduates serious problems down the road. Trust me- or not, your choice after all- but the bias is real and not just on this particular board (I know graduates of FSPSs who are more wary/cautious than I regarding hiring students/LPs from the very same programs they went to themselves). I consider myself to be a relatively thoughtful person who works in an area (both geographically and clinically) that is DESPERATELY in need of psychologists (if it turns out that kiddo doesn't show up today, next open testing slot on my calendar is in September so I'll need to find something off-hours for him/her). I am still biased against grads of these programs. I think fairly so, but the concept of "fair" really is irrelevant when you are looking at student loan payments of $1200+ per month! Attending one of these programs is probably not a kiss of death, and it's still a majority (though in some cases only a slight majority) of those who begin the program that go on to becoming licensed psychologist. However, it does mean that you are starting your career with an additional hurdle in your way (fair/justified or not), and modal outcomes of many of these programs put your job prospects on par with MA -level clinicians, with similar salaries. If you are considering a FSPS, do your homework, be skeptical, and be open to the possibility that there may be more efficient paths to accomplish your dreams or, unfortunately, also be open the possibility that you may need some new dreams.

With that, I step down from the soap box and shall look for other ways to kill time until the end of the day, as it really does not look like my client is going to show up today...
 
ClinicalABA said:
With that, I step down from the soap box and shall look for other ways to kill time until the end of the day, as it really does not look like my client is going to show up today...
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Pokémon Go. You've got to have a gym nearby.
 
WisNeuro said:
Pokémon Go. You've got to have a gym nearby.
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pokemon-go-ar-snapshot-photobomb.jpg
 
ClinicalABA said:
As I sit here waiting for a kiddo to show for round 2 of assessment (without much faith that s/he will show- uggh, I hate half-finished testing). thinking to much about this thread, I have come to another conclusion. For prospective students, It actually does not matter if the bias against these programs is justified or not, empirically supported or not, etc. What matter is that it exists and has the potential to cause students and graduates serious problems down the road. Trust me- or not, your choice after all- but the bias is real and not just on this particular board (I know graduates of FSPSs who are more wary/cautious than I regarding hiring students/LPs from the very same programs they went to themselves). I consider myself to be a relatively thoughtful person who works in an area (both geographically and clinically) that is DESPERATELY in need of psychologists (if it turns out that kiddo doesn't show up today, next open testing slot on my calendar is in September so I'll need to find something off-hours for him/her). I am still biased against grads of these programs. I think fairly so, but the concept of "fair" really is irrelevant when you are looking at student loan payments of $1200+ per month! Attending one of these programs is probably not a kiss of death, an

d it's still a majority (though in some cases only a slight majority) of those who begin the program that go on to becoming licensed psychologist. However, it does mean that you are starting your career with an additional hurdle in your way (fair/justified or not), and modal outcomes of many of these programs put your job prospects on par with MA -level clinicians, with similar salaries. If you are considering a FSPS, do your homework, be skeptical, and be open to the possibility that there may be more efficient paths to accomplish your dreams or, unfortunately, also be open the possibility that you may need some new dreams.

With that, I step down from the soap box and shall look for other ways to kill time until the end of the day, as it really does not look like my client is going to show up today...
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Regarding the weeding out of certain schools, I don't know why anyone is fighting about it. No one is going to change anyone else's mind on this topic. Many large companies only hire from the Ivy League for positions like investment banking or consulting. Does that mean that no one competent comes out of any other college? No, but lets not act like they are at a disadvantage when applying for such a job. Same thing here.

I actually have a bigger question based on the FSPS grads I know. How many of them are underemployed, stuck in a sector of the field that they have no interest in, or unable to reach their ultimate goals? I ask this as someone that worked with several FSPS colleagues and later supervised some in nursing homes. They were often frustrated as they could not obtain a well paid position in the area they wanted. Private practice is not always an option when you have large student loan payments and need a steady paycheck.
 
Sanman said:
Regarding the weeding out of certain schools, I don't know why anyone is fighting about it. No one is going to change anyone else's mind on this topic. Many large companies only hire from the Ivy League for positions like investment banking or consulting. Does that mean that no one competent comes out of any other college? No, but lets not act like they are at a disadvantage when applying for such a job. Same thing here.

I actually have a bigger question based on the FSPS grads I know. How many of them are underemployed, stuck in a sector of the field that they have no interest in, or unable to reach their ultimate goals? I ask this as someone that worked with several FSPS colleagues and later supervised some in nursing homes. They were often frustrated as they could not obtain a well paid position in the area they wanted. Private practice is not always an option when you have large student loan payments and need a steady paycheck.
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My mind on this topic was changed by a graduate (intern at the time) of a FSPS. As a Masters level clinician that had graduated from a traditional school, I held all the negative attitudes/biases I see on this forum. Getting to know this person blew all my ignorant biases out of the water. Through them, I met graduates from similiar programs. All of them totally killing it in their areas of interest, and all of them highly competent. I had considered the doctoral door closed to me, but seeing that FSPS’s could produce competent psychologists re-opened that door for me.

This was just my experience. Debates on an Internet forum may not change minds, but real life exposure might.
 
GradStudent2020 said:
My mind on this topic was changed by a graduate (intern at the time) of a FSPS. As a Masters level clinician that had graduated from a traditional school, I held all the negative attitudes/biases I see on this forum. Getting to know this person blew all my ignorant biases out of the water. Through them, I met graduates from similiar programs. All of them totally killing it in their areas of interest, and all of them highly competent. I had considered the doctoral door closed to me, but seeing that FSPS’s could produce competent psychologists re-opened that door for me.

This was just my experience. Debates on an Internet forum may not change minds, but real life exposure might.
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I'm curious what killing it meant to you or them. One that I know and continues to be a friend has complained about being able to afford a hyundai on 75-80k salary with the loan payments that were required. I was quite comfortable on a similar salary.
 
Sanman said:
I'm curious what killing it meant to you or them. One that I know and continues to be a friend has complained about being able to afford a hyundai on 75-80k salary with the loan payments that were required. I was quite comfortable on a similar salary.
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Under PAYE or REPAYE the most they would pay is $515/mo on a salary of 80k. I went to a fully funded PhD after my MS. One of the most depressing, liberating moments of my life was realizing that my MS debt is so high, it literally doesn't matter if I have a million dollars of doctoral debt, just paying the minimum on my MS loans maxes the 15% of discretionary income I will make until PSLF screws you jerks with the rest of it.
 
Mvp89 said:
Under PAYE or REPAYE the most they would pay is $515/mo on a salary of 80k. I went to a fully funded PhD after my MS. One of the most depressing, liberating moments of my life was realizing that my MS debt is so high, it literally doesn't matter if I have a million dollars of doctoral debt, just paying the minimum on my MS loans maxes the 15% of discretionary income I will make until PSLF screws you jerks with the rest of it.
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Considering the % of people actually approved for PSLF, we may not be on the hook for it after all 🙂
 
Sanman said:
I'm curious what killing it meant to you or them. One that I know and continues to be a friend has complained about being able to afford a hyundai on 75-80k salary with the loan payments that were required. I was quite comfortable on a similar salary.
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As far as I know all are more financially comfortable than that. One was recruited a few weeks after obtaining full licensure to a six figure position. Another works part-time for a private practice; super flexible schedule with benefits and seems well-compensated. A third is at a major medical center locally, seems to work a lot but enjoys it. I don’t know about their student loan situations, but that doesn’t seem like any of my business.

FWIW, even attending a FSPS school I will be very comfortable bringing in $75-80k with the student loan debt I will have accrued. Maybe I’m an outlier. I am married so not the only earner, which likely makes a huge difference for some graduates.
 
WisNeuro said:
Considering the % of people actually approved for PSLF, we may not be on the hook for it after all 🙂
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They were in the wrong repayment plan, or were in paid ahead status for 10 years for a dollar over, or weren't doing their annual recert, or were in a religious org (thanks Obama), or hadn't made payments in a nonprofit for a full 120 months. And actually DeVos, as insane, ignorant, and corrupt as she is, worked to help add funding for people that did it wrong.
 
Mvp89 said:
Under PAYE or REPAYE the most they would pay is $515/mo on a salary of 80k. I went to a fully funded PhD after my MS. One of the most depressing, liberating moments of my life was realizing that my MS debt is so high, it literally doesn't matter if I have a million dollars of doctoral debt, just paying the minimum on my MS loans maxes the 15% of discretionary income I will make until PSLF screws you jerks with the rest of it.
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I'm old, people my age don't qualify for PAYE or REPAYE. So, what happens if you don't qualify for paye/ repaye? See how well PSLF is working for the first batch of folks?

This government loan forgiveness program has rejected 99% of borrowers so far
 
GradStudent2020 said:
As far as I know all are more financially comfortable than that. One was recruited a few weeks after obtaining full licensure to a six figure position. Another works part-time for a private practice; super flexible schedule with benefits and seems well-compensated. A third is at a major medical center locally, seems to work a lot but enjoys it. I don’t know about their student loan situations, but that doesn’t seem like any of my business.

FWIW, even attending a FSPS school I will be very comfortable bringing in $75-80k with the student loan debt I will have accrued. Maybe I’m an outlier. I am married so not the only earner, which likely makes a huge difference for some graduates.
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If you are making decisions about a career based on what these people have told you, it would make sense to know what the reality is before you jump in feet first. I know a woman that went to an unfunded doctoral program and enjoys her job as well with no financial concerns. Her husband is a friend and works in the tech sector making more than $300k annually. It isn't her salary paying off those loans. Someone might look at her and be inspired to go to an unfunded doctoral program because it works out, but what they need to be doing is finding a rich husband.
 
Sanman said:
If you are making decisions about a career based on what these people have told you, it would make sense to know what the reality is before you jump in feet first. I know a woman that went to an unfunded doctoral program and enjoys her job as well with no financial concerns. Her husband is a friend and works in the tech sector making more than $300k annually. It isn't her salary paying off those loans. Someone might look at her and be inspired to go to an unfunded doctoral program because it works out, but what they need to be doing is finding a rich husband.
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I did my research. I hope others understand the financial implications of a non-funded program before choosing that route. It’s a valid option for some.
 
Sanman said:
I'm old, people my age don't qualify for PAYE or REPAYE. So, what happens if you don't qualify for paye/ repaye? See how well PSLF is working for the first batch of folks?

This government loan forgiveness program has rejected 99% of borrowers so far
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NHSC with 25k/year loan repayment, IHS with 20/yr loan repayment, SOME VA psychologist positions have loan repayment. The Army National Guard offers 75k bonus and 75 loan repayment over the course of three years. There are 4 repayment plans that work with PSLF, one of them is probably for old people.
 
Sanman said:
If you are making decisions about a career based on what these people have told you, it would make sense to know what the reality is before you jump in feet first. I know a woman that went to an unfunded doctoral program and enjoys her job as well with no financial concerns. Her husband is a friend and works in the tech sector making more than $300k annually. It isn't her salary paying off those loans. Someone might look at her and be inspired to go to an unfunded doctoral program because it works out, but what they need to be doing is finding a rich husband.
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The people I met before pursuing this option were definitely open about the pros and cons, btw. As I am when I talk to people considering grad degrees in the field. I always bring up funding as a consideration, it’s a huge factor in choosing this route.
 
Speaking of bias... You need to account for the bias in the sample of FSPS grads you might encounter, particularly as a student. The nature of student interactions with practicing psychologists (e.g., supervisors on practicum; lecturers or professors in classes) is such that you are much more likely to encounter successful grads from the top of the distribution. Making decisions based on data from this sample is problematic if you don’t sample from the rest of the distribution. Problem is, the rest of the distribution (the many students who start but drop out; grads who don’t get licensed; grads who can’t supervise others because they are not competent to do so). Remember, as humans relying on our “built in” strategies gathering data to support an hypothesis (in this case, the hypothesis = “this program will result in me being a successful psychologist “), we tend to look for data to support our beliefs as well as discount data contrary to our beliefs. This is problematic. It’s why, once you get to a semi decent graduate school, you will have several semesters of coursework related to ways to overcome these built in biases when making decision.
 
Jon Snow said:
- if you’re rich, your spouse is rich, your parent are rich, or you have the gi bill (whatever), these programs are likely the path of least resistance, especially staying in a big city. If your options are usc, UCLA, or Alliant, obviously alliant is the lower hurdle.
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I should've commented on this in my post somewhere up there about differences in practicum student- The practicum applicants I see from the FSPS are MUCH more likely to come from a higher SES, have funding from family members, drive an objectively nicer care than me, be caucasian, and be male than the students I've seen from the local State U program. Interpret that as you will.
 
Mvp89 said:
Under PAYE or REPAYE the most they would pay is $515/mo on a salary of 80k. I went to a fully funded PhD after my MS. One of the most depressing, liberating moments of my life was realizing that my MS debt is so high, it literally doesn't matter if I have a million dollars of doctoral debt, just paying the minimum on my MS loans maxes the 15% of discretionary income I will make until PSLF screws you jerks with the rest of it.
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I just wanted to add that you raise an important point, albeit one that perhaps you did not intend. The ways that free-standing professional schools of psychology often take advantage of students is frequently discussed on this forum. But I think that terminal master's programs, particularly in the field of clinical psychology, which don't lead to a license eligible degree and sell students on the hopes of using the masters as a stepping stone to doctoral work, also take advantage of students. These programs become a "cash cow" for departments, even in university-based non-profit programs, and it absolutely contributes to the problem of disproportional debt to income ratio for many in the field.
 
PsychScience said:
I just wanted to add that you raise an important point, albeit one that perhaps you did not intend. The ways that free-standing professional schools of psychology often take advantage of students is frequently discussed on this forum. But I think that terminal master's programs, particularly in the field of clinical psychology, which don't lead to a license eligible degree and sell students on the hopes of using the masters as a stepping stone to doctoral work, also take advantage of students. These programs become a "cash cow" for departments, even in university-based non-profit programs, and it absolutely contributes to the problem of disproportional debt to income ratio for many in the field.
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Yeah I mean I can't argue though, a lot of them are effective stepping stones. We got trained in cognitive assessment etc for no other reason than to get into a PhD, it was basically the minors. And where I did my PhD, they straight up abused the MS students as a farm to milk to fund the PhD students (like me). No one tells undergrads to just apply to rural counseling psych phds straight out. I looked at the application for a Coun Psyc PhD in Oklahoma recently - the biggest point they emphasized in the cover letter was that "geographic proximity should not be the sole reason for application." Plenty of good undergrads could get into those programs and not be taken advantage of by the MS system.
 
Mvp89 said:
No one tells undergrads to just apply to rural counseling psych phds straight out. I looked at the application for a Coun Psyc PhD in Oklahoma recently - the biggest point they emphasized in the cover letter was that "geographic proximity should not be the sole reason for application." Plenty of good undergrads could get into those programs and not be taken advantage of by the MS system.
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Not for nothing, but some of us say it all the time. I will straight up admit that while I was competitive for some funded programs straight out of undergrad, I was not competitive for the most desirable programs. Targeting less desirable locations with faculty who had similar research interests was my method of getting in directly out of undergrad. Sometimes you have to do what others will not. A lot of people don't want to hear that.
 
Sanman said:
Not for nothing, but some of us say it all the time. I will straight up admit that while I was competitive for some funded programs straight out of undergrad, I was not competitive for the most desirable programs. Targeting less desirable locations with faculty who had similar research interests was my method of getting in directly out of undergrad. Sometimes you have to do what others will not. A lot of people don't want to hear that.
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Totally agree. I do genuinely feel that God humbled me - I was hot **** as an undergrad, embarrassed to go to places like Alaska for my PhD. Apparently the other Oklahoma Coun Psyc PhD closed for lack of applicants, can you believe that? No one gave me that advice though, it was an R1 clinical psyc or bust.
 
In typical fashion of my opinions: I honestly believe that most of the PsydD vs PhD nonsense is driven by money.

1) Psychologists make stupidly low incomes. Regardless of Degree.

2) Reducing the number of psychologists will do nothing to change incomes. Hourly is derived from cms, which does not use availability for how they determine rates.

3) Its all about productivity. Income is simply hoursly rate times hours billed. A typical office job has 40hrs/week; 50 weeks a year. This means 2000 hrs worked a year. Medicare pays around $90/hr for psych services. Go look up ER docs hourly wages. It’s like $130/hr. Now explain why their median income is reported to be around $250k and psychologists are reporting a median income of around $80k without using productivity. You can’t.

5) I honestly believe that the field would be saved by an increase in productivity and aggressive training in assertiveness in contract negotiations.
 
PSYDR said:
In typical fashion of my opinions: I honestly believe that most of the PsydD vs PhD nonsense is driven by money.

1) Psychologists make stupidly low incomes. Regardless of Degree.
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This is why debt matters so much, but is left out of your talking points. In this field we simply cannot afford to take on med school level debt. Because, as you say in point 3 (and implied in point 1), we don't make physician level income. And, when taking on any debt the assumption should always be that you WILL have to pay it back. Depending on external funding sources for your debt is, in my opinion, foolish. If you end up successfully applying for PSLF, then bonus, but students shouldn't be taking educational loans that they have no intent, plan, or ability to pay back. And I don't believe ethical educational programs should require students to take on this level of debt either.
 
Sanman said:
Not for nothing, but some of us say it all the time. I will straight up admit that while I was competitive for some funded programs straight out of undergrad, I was not competitive for the most desirable programs. Targeting less desirable locations with faculty who had similar research interests was my method of getting in directly out of undergrad. Sometimes you have to do what others will not. A lot of people don't want to hear that.
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AND doing so does not necessarily limit success or ultimate career goals if one is intentional, planful, and hard-working. I took an increasingly flexible approach in my application and ended up landing an R1 job straight out of internship publishing with the exact major researchers with whom I hoped to work with during my initial program searches.
 
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