PsyD vs PhD: Addressing Anti-Psyd Sentiments

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It'd probably be easier to save the eventual frustration and just avoid making character assessments based on internet message board posts.

Ah. I'm not bothered by that. It's an online psychology forum after all. That is to be expected. 😉 I'd just appreciate it if he/she actually had some knowledge of the diagnostic labels he/she is throwing about.

I never said Aspergers was a PD... 😕

Should I ask about BPD as well?

Oh for Christ's sake... let me help you.

You seem to overshoot the point of what people say by miles instead of yards. It would be one thing if this was the first time, but it is a consistent flaw in your reasoning and expression. This isn't a healthy personality characteristic for someone who plans on trying to psychologically help people...

Neither Aspergers (a developmental delay) nor borderline PD fit too well what you were kinda sorta implying above. It seems you were describing cognitive distortions (overgeneralizing, mind reading, emotional reasoning perhaps?) that are the root of psychopathology from the perspective of cognitive theory and then transitioned back into trait characteristics. Go to school (a real one) and tease out the difference between clinical, personality, and developmental disorders.
 
1) IIRC it was discovered with the MMPI psychopathy deviancy scale. The info is usually in undergraduate abnormal psychology text books. I'll see if I can locate the study. It is fairly common knowledge.

So you think scale 4 elevation automatically indicates psychopathy? Are you even in graduate school?
 
Not to mention that graduate schools used to select applicants based on MMPI elevations, so that association could have a different direction of causality.
 
Also, you have no way of knowing if posters act the same way with clients that they do online. Remember the Fundamental Attribution Error?

Well, for someone to assume that any psychologist/trainee is in "therapy mode" at all times... is a bit.... limited.

No. Is this a pathognomonic feature? An associated feature? what?

Do you really expect him/her to answer that?

Look, Slarterbartfast has only contributed one nugget to this discussion which has spanned model debates, federal loan abuse, predictive value of admissions standards, mid-level encroachments, all sorts of juicy fodder. What does he/she have to add?

"My friend said psychologists are narcissistic." (x4)

Brilliant.
 
Agreed. It is far-fetched to expect that anyone who has already committed to their FSPS to admit that it may not have been the best move. At least not here. To an extent, that is understandable. However, I am glad that there are places like SDN where at least some potential applicants can clearly see the issues with these programs. God knows their marketing materials and websites are about as in-touch with reality as an acid trip.

I definitely agree that the information in these debates and discussions is fantastic for future applicants. However, I do believe that many applicants will continue to choose these FSPS schools despite, well everything we already mentioned about these kinds of schools. I know plenty of people that are applying a second/third time around and have settled at these schools perhaps out of frustration. There are also people who do not have the criteria to get into a funded program and will go to these schools to carry out their goals regardless. Hopefully your posts have swayed at least SOME people from applying to these schools though...I'm slightly embarassed to say that even I applied to Alliant (prior to being an SDN member 😉) as a safety precaution
 
If you look at Slarterbartfast's post history, you'll see that he/she is starting grad school this fall.
 
Not to mention that graduate schools used to select applicants based on MMPI elevations, so that association could have a different direction of causality.

I knew it was mandatory once you were in Back in the good ole days, but I didn't know it was used in selection criteria. Are you sure about that?
 
There are features of your online behavior that appear to overlap potential signs of all three. That is why I asked if you are one of the three... 😀

Ah. I'm not bothered by that. It's an online psychology forum after all. That is to be expected. 😉 I'd just appreciate it if he/she actually had some knowledge of the diagnostic labels he/she is throwing about.



Oh for Christ's sake... let me help you.



Neither Aspergers (a developmental delay) nor borderline PD fit too well what you were kinda sorta implying above. It seems you were describing cognitive distortions (overgeneralizing, mind reading, emotional reasoning perhaps?) that are the root of psychopathology from the perspective of cognitive theory and then transitioned back into trait characteristics. Go to school (a real one) and tease out the difference between clinical, personality, and developmental disorders.
 
I knew it was mandatory once you were in Back in the good ole days, but I didn't know it was used in selection criteria. Are you sure about that?

I think University of Minnesota did. That's what my professor said, anyway. Supposedly they liked deviancy elevations because it meant the students would be more independent and able to take criticism.
 
So you think scale 4 elevation automatically indicates psychopathy? Are you even in graduate school?

I said "higher than normal levels of psychopathy..." How does someone with your reading skills get into graduate school?
 
Slarterbartfast, please stop. Personality disorders involve traits and behaviors that must be pervasive throughout ALL types of situations. You have seen O Gurl in one type of situation.
 
There are features of your online behavior that appear to overlap potential signs of all three. That is why I asked if you are one of the three... 😀

Before this conversation get back on track like it should, I think you need be informed that no matter how vigilant or angry a person seems about a topic, it is unethical and extremely poor form and judgement to throw diagnoses at someone over the internet. No only is this slanderous to the person, its unethical and can get you in trouble as a psychologist. If you are just starting graduate school like you say, then you need very aware of this issues.
 
Before this conversation get back on track like it should, I think you need be informed that no matter how vigilant or angry a person seems about a topic, it is unethical and extremely poor form and judgement to throw diagnoses at someone over the internet. No only is this slanderous to the person, its unethical and can get you in trouble as a psychologist. If you are just starting graduate school like you say, then you need very aware of this issues.

I agree. I wasn't making a diagnosis...
 
I said "higher than normal levels of psychopathy..." How does someone with your reading skills get into graduate school?

There is not a "normal level" of psychopathy, son. Psychopathy is an extreme form of one disorder.
 
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I definitely agree that the information in these debates and discussions is fantastic for future applicants. However, I do believe that many applicants will continue to choose these FSPS schools despite, well everything we already mentioned about these kinds of schools. I know plenty of people that are applying a second/third time around and have settled at these schools perhaps out of frustration. There are also people who do not have the criteria to get into a funded program and will go to these schools to carry out their goals regardless. Hopefully your posts have swayed at least SOME people from applying to these schools though...I'm slightly embarassed to say that even I applied to Alliant (prior to being an SDN member 😉) as a safety precaution

And that's the whole point. I don't expect to sway those who are committed to blind self fulfillment--even if it means burying themselves in massive debt only to work at a community health center that pays them as a mid-level professional-- just so they can say "I still got my doctorate." My concern is for those who come here and are actually open to information. I am so glad that you chose differently.

If you look at Slarterbartfast's post history, you'll see that he/she is starting grad school this fall.

Get out! I wonder where? :laugh:
(Ok, I am an a**hole)
 
Slarterbartfast, please stop. Personality disorders involve traits and behaviors that must be pervasive throughout ALL types of situations. You have seen O Gurl in one type of situation.

Absolutely, which is why I asked a question...
 
There is not a "normal level" of psychopathy, son. Psychopathy is an extreme form of one disorder.

I am likely much older than you, kiddo! 😀

Do I need to spell out for you that I am referring to the MMPI psychopathic deviate scale again? Do I need to teach you about norming as well? 😕

🙂
 
You still haven't answered my question about whether you think "enjoying debate" is a pathognomonic feature, associated feature, or a possible feature for psychopathy?
 
I am likely much older than you, kiddo! 😀

Do I need to spell out for you that I am referring to the MMPI psychopathic deviate scale again? Do I need to teach you about norming as well? 😕

🙂

No. And yes, but you are misusing the scale by assuming the name of the scale is what it assesses. What is your understanding of what this scale assesses?
 
In case anyone doesn't realize it....

:troll:

Those of us who are advanced graduate students, interns, and licensed professionals obviously don't know anything. Thousands of hours of training and mentorship down the drain because we didn't realize we should have stuck with our undergraduate textbooks, Google, and blind confidence. Everyone should realize that we need to defer to people who have yet to step foot into a graduate program, as they obviously know more than we do about our profession. Thank God for SDN or we would have never realized the error of our ways.
 
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No. And yes, but you are misusing the scale by assuming the name of the scale is what it assesses. What is your understanding of what this scale assesses?

You are grabbing at straws. Plus you can answer this question as well as the previous question you keep asking by looking up what is measured by scale 4. I know you are capable, despite my previous hyperbole. Besides, as someone else said in this thread, it's not rocket surgery.
 
You are grabbing at straws. Plus you can answer this question as well as the previous question you keep asking by looking up what is measured by scale 4. I know you are capable, despite my previous hyperbole. Besides, as someone else said in this thread, it's not rocket surgery.

Yes, I already know the answer. Im just not sure if you do. Thats the point.

Its an incorrect assumption made on your part that elevations on this scale reflect psychopathic attitudes or tendencies. Scale 4 is elevated by all sorts of variables.Thats the point. Its not "grabbing at straws."
 
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Yes, I already know the answer. Im just not sure if you do. Thats the point.

Its an incorrect assumption made on your part that elevations on this scale reflect psychopathic attitudes or tendencies. Scale 4 is elevated by all sorts of variables.Thats the point. Its not "grabbing at straws."

To address this point, it's one of the reasons people have moved away from using the names of the MMPI/MMPI-2 scales and instead have pushed to identify them only by number.

Although I believe the MMPI-2-RF may have tried to fix some of these scale name validity issues...?
 
There are features of your online behavior that appear to overlap potential signs of all three. That is why I asked if you are one of the three... 😀

Well, I would totally sign up to be one of your first assessment cases when you complete your training and get licensed. However, the numbers are simply not in your favor. If you picked up anything during your time at SDN, it should be that members are not inventing a downward trend for clinical psychology. The number of positions are declining, salaries are fixed in most settings and for most specialties, the internship imbalance is massive and growing (more people getting weeded out at the end), and although not specific to psychology, the student loan bubble is about to burst. I am merely guessing that you are headed into one of the programs that will be hardest hit by these trends. So get your diagnostic rocks off while you can, my friend.

OK, back to something that matters.

Is anyone going to help with this student loan riddle? The person I originally asked decided we are all too mean and was done responding (fair enough) but if anyone has insights into just how the math pans out here, please feel free:

If the median salary for clinical psychologists is 65K, how can someone pay back 200K in loans? Calculated at the standard 10-yr plan, I got:

[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Note: The monthly loan payment was calculated at 119 payments of $2,301.61 plus a final payment of $2,301.03..

[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]It is estimated that you will need an annual salary of at least $276,193.20 to be able to afford to repay this loan. This estimate assumes that 10% of your gross monthly income will be devoted to repaying your student loans. This corresponds to a debt-to-income ratio of 0.7. If you use 15% of your gross monthly income to repay the loan, you will need an annual salary of only $184,128.80, but you may experience some financial difficulty.This corresponds to a debt-to-income ratio of 1.1. .
At the extended plan of 30 years:

[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Note: The monthly loan payment was calculated at 359 payments of $1,303.85 plus a final payment of $1,304.29..

[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]It is estimated that you will need an annual salary of at least $156,462.00 to be able to afford to repay this loan. This estimate assumes that 10% of your gross monthly income will be devoted to repaying your student loans. This corresponds to a debt-to-income ratio of 1.3. If you use 15% of your gross monthly income to repay the loan, you will need an annual salary of only $104,308.00, but you may experience some financial difficulty.This corresponds to a debt-to-income ratio of 1.9. .
http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml
 
Yes, I can. Im just not sure if you can. Thats the point.

Its an incorrect assumption made on your part that elevations on this scale reflect psychopathic attitudes or tendencies. Thats the point. Its not "grabbing at straws."

I wasn't making that assumption. I guess my posts did not sufficiently note that I was referring to measures on the MMPI derived via testing questions with criterion keying.
 
I wasn't making that assumption. I guess my posts did not sufficiently note that I was referring to measures on the MMPI derived via testing questions with criterion keying.

*Sigh. Yes, yes, we are all graduate students here. We got it, and yes we all know about the norming process/method for the original MMPI sample. However, if you trust that the diagnosis of "psychopathic deviate" means the same thing now as it did in the 1930's, then you are mistaken.

The point is that yes, of course it can tap into attitudes held by psychopaths...but it will ALSO be reflective of individuals who are more career and success oriented (grad students), individualistic (graduate students), highly educated (graduate students), come from impoverished communities, skeptic types, biitter divorced dads, etc. It is by no means indicative of antisocial PD or psychopathy in and of itself. Hence, again why we don't use the name of the scales at face value as AA mentioned.

It is not surprising that psych grad students would elevate the scale modestly (as would bankers, wall steet types). This by no means indicates they have a "higher than normal level of psychopathy" and it was certainly wrong of you to interpret or imply that.
 
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I definitely agree that the information in these debates and discussions is fantastic for future applicants. However, I do believe that many applicants will continue to choose these FSPS schools despite, well everything we already mentioned about these kinds of schools. I know plenty of people that are applying a second/third time around and have settled at these schools perhaps out of frustration. There are also people who do not have the criteria to get into a funded program and will go to these schools to carry out their goals regardless. Hopefully your posts have swayed at least SOME people from applying to these schools though...I'm slightly embarassed to say that even I applied to Alliant (prior to being an SDN member 😉) as a safety precaution

Wow. A moment of clarity in this latest slew of nasty and personal attacks. I could not agree more. Discussions like this are prone to nastiness because people get majorly defensive if they feel their intellect, character, or work-ethic is being insulted. That does not mean that the facts presented about these schools are falling on deaf ears. If even a handful of future applicants are informed, then that is great.
 
Is anyone going to help with this student loan riddle?

If the median salary for clinical psychologists is 65K, how can someone pay back 200K in loans?

http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml

I think the hard truth is that barring extraneous factors like family wealth or a spouse who earns a lot of money, these loans are not feasible. There has to be an expectation of a loan forgiveness program, but it is impossible that all of people accumulating this debt will qualify. It is frightening.
 
I said "higher than normal levels of psychopathy..." How does someone with your reading skills get into graduate school?

Wow. Attacking people who are very vocal in their concern for professional schools by questioning their intellect or mental health or character is ridiculous and uncalled for. One can understand being upset by the nature of this discussion if one is a student or graduate of these schools, but you may get farther by sticking to the issues.
 
Do you pontificate like this all the time (even with your wife)? :yawn:

It wouldn't have been nearly as entertaining if I had said, "psychologists measure higher on scale 4." You don't mind hyperbole when your girlfriend does it! 🤣

*Sigh. Yes, yes, we are all graduate students here. We got it, and yes we all know about the norming process/method for the original MMPI sample. However, if you trust that diagnosis of "psychopathic deviate" means the same things now as it did in the 1930's then you are mistaken.

The point is that yes of course its can tap into attitudes held by psychopaths...but it will ALSO be reflective of individuals who are more career and success oriented (grad students), individualistic (graduate students), highly educated (graduate students), come from impoverished communities, skeptic types, or come from inner city backgrounds, etc. It is by no means indicative of antisocial PD or psychopathy in and of itself. Hence, again why we don't use the name of the scales at face value as AA mentioned.

It is not surprising that psych grad students would elevate the scale modestly (as would bankers, wall steet types). This by no means means they have a "higher than normal level of psychopathy" and it was certain wrong of you to interpret or imply that.
 
Wow. Attacking people who are very vocal in their concern for professional schools by questioning their intellect or mental health or character is ridiculous and uncalled for. One can understand being upset by the nature of this discussion if one is a student or graduate of these schools, but you may get farther by sticking to the issues.

Actually, he and I were arguing over something different. Thank you for playing.


Personally I think the whole PsyD vs. PhD argument was created by social workers to keep us divided so that they can take over the world...
 
Do you pontificate like this all the time (even with your wife)? :yawn:

It wouldn't have been nearly as entertaining if I had said, "psychologists measure higher on scale 4." You don't mind hyperbole when your girlfriend does it! 🤣

Pontificate-"to speak in a pompous or dogmatic manner."

If you can point the "pompousness" in that response, I am all ears. If you can point to errors in that response, I am all ears.

You made an error. I corrected you. This will happen alot in grad school. You should get used to it. 🙄

PS: My wife comes up with better (and less offensive) hyperboles.
 
Pontificate-"to speak in a pompous or dogmatic manner."

If you can point the "pompousness" in that response, I am all ears. If you can point to errors in that response, I am all ears.

You made an error. I corrected you. This will happen alot in grad school. You should get used to it. 🙄

Whatever helps you sleep at night... 😴
 
Actually, he and I were arguing over something different. Thank you for playing.


Personally I think the whole PsyD vs. PhD argument was created by social workers to keep us divided so that they can take over the world...

My point was that your immaturity, even in your dismissal of my point, is not helping with whatever got you so riled up to begin with. It only gives the opposing side an equally low-brow option of generalizing your behavior and debate skills to other professional school students.
 
My point was that your immaturity, even in your dismissal of my point, is not helping with whatever got you so riled up to begin with. It only gives the opposing side an equally low-brow option of generalizing your behavior and debate skills to other professional school students.

I'm not riled up and I'm not a professional school student.
 
I'm not riled up and I'm not a professional school student.

Fine. Then perhaps you are just someone who enjoys trolling online forums and randomly attacking people? I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you'd gotten offended by the actual discussion here.
 
I think University of Minnesota did. That's what my professor said, anyway. Supposedly they liked deviancy elevations because it meant the students would be more independent and able to take criticism.


My assessment prof. went to and taught at U. Minn decades ago and the impression he's given us is that they were obsessed with the MMPI... giving it and taking it constantly, almost like a having a constant self-barometer.
 
Fine. Then perhaps you are just someone who enjoys trolling online forums and randomly attacking people? I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you'd gotten offended by the actual discussion here.

I'm humored more than anything. People want to eliminate professional schools because they pump too many psychologists out who are on par with masters level practitioners (yeah, yeah, debt also...). People are worried about masters level encroachment and want to blame the professional schools for this issue. Meanwhile, political power lies with the masters level practitioners because their numbers greatly overwhelm psychologists. The APA is interested in increasing their political power and since there aren't enough psychologists to do so, they accredit FSPS and they accept masters level practitioners into their ranks to increase their power. This then dilutes the APA's interests towards psychologists since they have to please masters level practitioners as well. It goes on and on and on (I literally have to stop to cook dinner for my family!). What a whacky field...

Don't even get started on psychiatrists and their desire to replace psychologists with masters level practitioners because of their fear of psychologists getting prescription privileges...
 
O Gurl, I take a stab at showing how one can afford to repay $200k.

First, what the government thinks I should spend/save and what is reality are often two different things. That said, let's break it down.

If the average psychologist is making $65k, we will go with that figure. Of course, if we are talking about average psychologist, we are then talking about a married person, with a second income in the home. Let's have the spouse make $65k as well (because, after all, we do tend to gravitate toward those with similar incomes).

Annual income and expenses:

$130,000
($27,600) - student loan payment over 10 years at 7% for $200k (rounded)
($24,000) - mortgage payment at $2k/month. I realize this is reasonable for some, not for others, just going off my own payment.
($12,000) - utilities including TV, cell, etc
($6000) - two car payments at $250 each, or one at $500. (Mind you, this is only for about 5 years)
($6000) - health insurance for two ppl at $250 month
($1400) - car insurance for two cars. Again, going off my own. Two drivers with spotless records
($32,000) - income tax at 25%. But honestly, if you are paying 25% with a mortgage, paying own insurance, etc., you need a new accountant.

This leaves approximately $1,750 per month for food and other expenses. Not a ton of money, but very livable (I have lived very happily on far less).

Again, this is only for 10 years (which sounds daunting when you are thirty, piece of cake when you are in your forties). This also is taking the $65k salary as a given, which I don't believe would remain stagnant over a 10 year period.
 
My point was that your immaturity, even in your dismissal of my point, is not helping with whatever got you so riled up to begin with. It only gives the opposing side an equally low-brow option of generalizing your behavior and debate skills to other professional school students.

Take it easy. I am a professional "university" school student. Someone's ineptitude does not indicate their training model. Less we be reminded of an insufficient; non redundant part of an unnecessary but sufficient condition
 
That's what I've heard. Seems like a good idea.

I think that removing the general common factor to all psychopathology makes sense and the Restructured Clinical scales seems accurate from what I have read. Plus a combo of the MMPI-2 clinical scales and the RC scales give more useful information than either scale alone.
 
Slarterbartfast,

I am confused. So you are starting grad school, presumably in psychology, yet seem to buy into negative stereotypes about psychologists. You launched into a full-scale and seemingly unprovoked attack against OG who was posting about the ills of FSPSs. You attacked Erg for pointing out that you were making some rookie errors in your misuse of terminology and personality scale measures in your first attack. In between all of this vitriol, you seem disinterested in the actual topics that are being discussed. What are you so angry about? Why are you here? I'm only curious.
 
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