PsyD vs. PhD for Therapy

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traumapsychology

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Hi all,

I'm currently building a graduate school application list and am frankly a bit lost. I'm will be graduating with a BA in psychology next May. Up until a little while ago, I was convinced I should go down the PhD route. I got the general sense that PsyD programs are not worth the debt and have limitations when it comes to job opportunities.

I'd like to eventually work with inpatient populations, particularly forensic populations. I'm currently an extern on a state inpatient psychiatric unit and am loving it. I'm also particularly interested in PTSD/trauma, and so would likely enjoy working at a VA hospital down the line. I enjoy research and am involved in two labs at school now as an undergraduate, but I am pretty sure I don't want to be a career researcher, even though I'd enjoy research during my graduate years. I mostly see myself doing trauma research (which I am very interested in) and going on to work in a hospital and possibly opening my own practice later on.

I have gotten through undergrad on loans and cannot afford 5+ years of an expensive PsyD program. I also don't want to be limited with a PsyD, which I've been led to believe but I'm not sure is true. I generally got the idea that PhDs have more doors open to them in terms of research and teaching, which I'd like to have the option to do.

However, I've also recently been told by PhD professors at my university that they are not interested in students who are looking to do clinical work, since they only want students who are interested in furthering research for the rest of their careers. They basically said I would have to lie at interviews and say I want to dedicate my life to research, or at least say I want to do both clinical work and research.

Does anyone have any inside knowledge on this coming from clinical PhD programs? Or just any general opinions on PsyD vs. PhD when hoping to do clinical work?

Thank you!

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However, I've also recently been told by PhD professors at my university that they are not interested in students who are looking to do clinical work, since they only want students who are interested in furthering research for the rest of their careers. They basically said I would have to lie at interviews and say I want to dedicate my life to research, or at least say I want to do both clinical work and research.

Definitely not true. Just make sure that you apply to balanced PhD programs.
 
PhD programs run the gambit from very clinically focused to very research focused. Your school is likely on the research-heavy side (or those particular faculty are - it can vary by professor). Not all schools operate that way, so its just a matter of finding programs that offer an appropriate balance. Yeah, Yale, U Minnesota, UCLA, etc. probably aren't great choices for you, but tons of programs would be a great fit. I wouldn't rule out the select few PsyD programs that offer partial (or full) funding, but I think in the vast majority of circumstances the PhD makes more sense to pursue both for the sake of career opportunities and also from a purely economic perspective.
 
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However, I've also recently been told by PhD professors at my university that they are not interested in students who are looking to do clinical work, since they only want students who are interested in furthering research for the rest of their careers. They basically said I would have to lie at interviews and say I want to dedicate my life to research, or at least say I want to do both clinical work and research.
Thank you!

This is just a myth that persists despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Lots of balanced programs that are out there in the clinical PhD world. I won't re-hash what cara and ollie have said, but I will add, given your interest in trauma and looking to eventually maybe work in the VA, I would look for a clinical program that offers practica experiences in a nearby VA. That will help you get your foot in the door for internship/postdoc and later on a faculty position if you still desire one.
 
I would look for a clinical program that offers practica experiences in a nearby VA. That will help you get your foot in the door for internship/postdoc and later on a faculty position if you still desire one.

Our counseling psych program has a forensics specialist and prison pracs, and pracs in a VA outpatient clinic, internal medicine, psychooncology, and other hospital pracs.

Picking a program that has opportunities for all your clinical interests is by far the better way to go than "phd/psyd."
 
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Hi all,

I'm currently building a graduate school application list and am frankly a bit lost. I'm will be graduating with a BA in psychology next May. Up until a little while ago, I was convinced I should go down the PhD route. I got the general sense that PsyD programs are not worth the debt and have limitations when it comes to job opportunities.

I'd like to eventually work with inpatient populations, particularly forensic populations. I'm currently an extern on a state inpatient psychiatric unit and am loving it. I'm also particularly interested in PTSD/trauma, and so would likely enjoy working at a VA hospital down the line. I enjoy research and am involved in two labs at school now as an undergraduate, but I am pretty sure I don't want to be a career researcher, even though I'd enjoy research during my graduate years. I mostly see myself doing trauma research (which I am very interested in) and going on to work in a hospital and possibly opening my own practice later on.

I have gotten through undergrad on loans and cannot afford 5+ years of an expensive PsyD program. I also don't want to be limited with a PsyD, which I've been led to believe but I'm not sure is true. I generally got the idea that PhDs have more doors open to them in terms of research and teaching, which I'd like to have the option to do.

However, I've also recently been told by PhD professors at my university that they are not interested in students who are looking to do clinical work, since they only want students who are interested in furthering research for the rest of their careers. They basically said I would have to lie at interviews and say I want to dedicate my life to research, or at least say I want to do both clinical work and research.

Does anyone have any inside knowledge on this coming from clinical PhD programs? Or just any general opinions on PsyD vs. PhD when hoping to do clinical work?

Thank you!
I'm not in grad school yet, so I can't speak from personal experience. However, I think a PhD program with a good balance between research and clinical practice would meet your needs, especially since you are in fact interested in trauma research. Have you started looking at specific programs yet? I have very similar interests, and these are the ones I'm considering...

U. of Colorado at Colorado Springs
U. of Oregon
Northern Illinois University
Saint Louis University
U. of Utah
Boston University
U. Pennsylvania
Case Western
U. of Denver
Duke
 
I'm not in grad school yet, so I can't speak from personal experience. However, I think a PhD program with a good balance between research and clinical practice would meet your needs, especially since you are in fact interested in trauma research. Have you started looking at specific programs yet? I have very similar interests, and these are the ones I'm considering...

U. of Colorado at Colorado Springs
U. of Oregon
Northern Illinois University
Saint Louis University
U. of Utah
Boston University
U. Pennsylvania
Case Western
U. of Denver
Duke

Those are good programs, but some of them are more research-oriented. The OP sounds like they want a more balanced program.
 
Those are good programs, but some of them are more research-oriented. The OP sounds like they want a more balanced program.
Which in particular do you think are more research-oriented? My own interests are pretty evenly split between research and clinical practice (probably even a little more toward clinical), but I'm wondering if a more research-oriented program would better support my long term goals (academia and mental health care organization/oversight, such as a VA Chief of Staff position).
 
U of Oregon, Duke, and U. Pennsylvania.
 
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Which in particular do you think are more research-oriented? My own interests are pretty evenly split between research and clinical practice (probably even a little more toward clinical), but I'm wondering if a more research-oriented program would better support my long term goals (academia and mental health care organization/oversight, such as a VA Chief of Staff position).

Service chief positions in the VA involves the enforcement and oversight of goofy and often nonsensical policies that you didnt make, but are tasked with enforcing and tracking adherence on. Ra-Ra...

There are some good opportunties in higher level VA, but chief of staff positions seems to be about the least appealing of any of them, in my experience.
 
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Service chief positions in the VA involves the enforcement and oversight of goofy and often nonsensical policies that you didnt make, but are tasked with enforcing and tracking adherence on. Ra-Ra...

There are some good opportunties in higher level VA, but chief of staff positions seems to be about the least appealing of any of them, in my experience.
I'll keep that in mind, moving forward. The job description reads well, but I know it might not reflect reality. I'm a little conflicted about the VA in general (my own experience as a recipient of VA health care has been frustrating at times)...but it seems like a pretty direct avenue to working with veterans of OIF/OEF (my main interest). What do you consider better alternatives within higher level positions at the VA?
 
The VA gets a bad rap, that is more misconception and spin, than actual science. Philip Longman writes about it sometimes, def worth a read. As for the admin positions in the VA. They do pay well, but honestly, I don't know if I'd ever want to pursue those. Knowing colleagues having moved into those, they can be pretty frustrating. Although, probably true for any healthcare admin job.
 
The VA gets a bad rap, that is more misconception and spin, than actual science. Philip Longman writes about it sometimes, def worth a read. As for the admin positions in the VA. They do pay well, but honestly, I don't know if I'd ever want to pursue those. Knowing colleagues having moved into those, they can be pretty frustrating. Although, probably true for any healthcare admin job.

I agree, and definitely think there's a different mindset required for full-time administrative work vs. clinical work. Within the VA, the highest I personally would want to go (at least currently) would be service chief, or even just lead of a particular subdiscipline (e.g., lead neuropsychologist), and even that's pushing it. No way would I want to get up to the chief of staff/ACOS level, as by that point, your direct patient care duties are nil.

Also, I personally have never seen a non-physician COS (but have seen psychologist ACOS's). My understanding is that, depending on the VA, there generally isn't anything barring a psychologist from becoming COS. But you may be facing an uphill battle in comparison to our physician colleagues.
 
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Service chief positions in the VA involves the enforcement and oversight of goofy and often nonsensical policies that you didnt make, but are tasked with enforcing and tracking adherence on. Ra-Ra...

There are some good opportunties in higher level VA, but chief of staff positions seems to be about the least appealing of any of them, in my experience.

This comment is so spot on at VA. I wouldn't want the chief position in my service if they offered it to me on a silver platter. Several other colleagues have said the same thing.
 
Hi all,

I'm currently building a graduate school application list and am frankly a bit lost. I'm will be graduating with a BA in psychology next May. Up until a little while ago, I was convinced I should go down the PhD route. I got the general sense that PsyD programs are not worth the debt and have limitations when it comes to job opportunities.

I'd like to eventually work with inpatient populations, particularly forensic populations. I'm currently an extern on a state inpatient psychiatric unit and am loving it. I'm also particularly interested in PTSD/trauma, and so would likely enjoy working at a VA hospital down the line. I enjoy research and am involved in two labs at school now as an undergraduate, but I am pretty sure I don't want to be a career researcher, even though I'd enjoy research during my graduate years. I mostly see myself doing trauma research (which I am very interested in) and going on to work in a hospital and possibly opening my own practice later on.

I have gotten through undergrad on loans and cannot afford 5+ years of an expensive PsyD program. I also don't want to be limited with a PsyD, which I've been led to believe but I'm not sure is true. I generally got the idea that PhDs have more doors open to them in terms of research and teaching, which I'd like to have the option to do.

However, I've also recently been told by PhD professors at my university that they are not interested in students who are looking to do clinical work, since they only want students who are interested in furthering research for the rest of their careers. They basically said I would have to lie at interviews and say I want to dedicate my life to research, or at least say I want to do both clinical work and research.

Does anyone have any inside knowledge on this coming from clinical PhD programs? Or just any general opinions on PsyD vs. PhD when hoping to do clinical work?

Thank you!

I went to a Ph.D. program (U. of Louisville) that, in retrospect, was probably a very middle-of-the-road balanced Ph.D. program that leaned more toward the practice side than the research side. However, we did receive excellent training regarding the latest scientific developments relating to assessing and treating anxiety disorders (the students, under supervision, ran an Anxiety Disorders Reasearch and Treatment Clinic) and, though we did some research, poster presentations, etc., it definitely wasn't a culture where most were expected to pursue academic careers upon graduation. I found the opportunities to learn how to conduct evidence-based protocols (as well as, importantly, why we were implementing them that way) to be invaluable and this level of understanding would not have been possible without immersion in the research side of things (models of the various disorders--panic disorder with agoraphobia, social phobia, GAD, PTSD, OCD, etc.). I work at a VA and encounter anxiety, mood, and trauma and stressor-related disorders on a routine basis. At present, I don't do any formal research (and may never do so again) but I sure am glad I had the exposure/training I did in early career. I think it helps me greatly in my efforts to help the veterans.

Different programs will have different models for training professional psychologists which broadly break down into scientist-practitioner, practitioner-scholar, and (more recently) clinical scientist. For an interesting read on the call for a scientific approach to clinical psychology, here's a link to a very interesting essay on that topic:

http://horan.asu.edu/ced522readings/mcfall/manifesto/manifest.htm

Best of luck to you!
 
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Louisville has become more research oriented in the past decade. Nevertheless, I would still describe it as balanced, I suppose.

Mcfalls "manifesto" has many legitimate points, but has always felt very off putting to me.
 
You are going to have to demonstrate interest in research if you want to get into a PhD program. There are a variety of types of PhD programs out there - som really do only want to train future researchers, and some are more balanced.

It just drives me crazy whenever the PhD=research and PsyD=clinical stuff comes up, as it couldn't really be further from the truth given the data available.

I think the question that people should be asking themselves if they want to be a therapist is what kind of therapy they want to do. If you are truly applying science to what you are doing, then therapy looks different in some ways compared to what I think most people envision when they imagine what being a therapist is like before becoming immersed in the profession. So if the goal is to really be effective for your clients, then you'll need to understand what types of things you'll be doing in therapy. If you were working at the VA, you might be applying a lot of EBTs like exposure methods, CBT, MI, etc. The day-to-day is going to be different than the roles people see in movies, etc.
 
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Hi everyone -- thank you for all the wonderful advice! It seems a more balanced PhD program might be the best fit for me in the end. Does anyone have any advice or further insight into how to target programs that are more balanced? Might be a dumb question, but from what I'm seeing, schools don't exactly have a "we do more clinical work!" banner on their welcome page. Any insight would be much appreciated. Thank you again :)
 
I'm not in grad school yet, so I can't speak from personal experience. However, I think a PhD program with a good balance between research and clinical practice would meet your needs, especially since you are in fact interested in trauma research. Have you started looking at specific programs yet? I have very similar interests, and these are the ones I'm considering...

U. of Colorado at Colorado Springs
U. of Oregon
Northern Illinois University
Saint Louis University
U. of Utah
Boston University
U. Pennsylvania
Case Western
U. of Denver
Duke

Hi undertoad, I'm interested to know who you've found at those schools who match our interests? I've been trying to find programs/faculty with a trauma research focus but haven't had a whole lot of success. I'm currently compiling a list, but as I said, many of the schools I initially turned to did not have clinical faculty studying trauma. I'm particularly thinking of Duke, Penn, BU, and U of Denver on your list. Please feel free to message me if you'd like to discuss further. Thanks :)
 
The Insider's Guide ranks programs on a scale regarding research vs. clinical focus. It's not always 100% accurate but it's a good start.
 
Hi undertoad, I'm interested to know who you've found at those schools who match our interests? I've been trying to find programs/faculty with a trauma research focus but haven't had a whole lot of success. I'm currently compiling a list, but as I said, many of the schools I initially turned to did not have clinical faculty studying trauma. I'm particularly thinking of Duke, Penn, BU, and U of Denver on your list. Please feel free to message me if you'd like to discuss further. Thanks :)

My interests are shaped mainly by an interest in military populations. Your mileage may vary.

Colorado Springs, Northern Illinois, and Saint Louis all offer a curricular focus in trauma psychology. As for the rest...

University of Oregon - Dr. Freyd
University of Utah - Dr. Bryan (military specific)
Boston University - Dr. Litz (PTSD...also has strong ties with Boston VA Medical Center/National Center for PTSD Studies)
University of Pennsylvania - (several faculty conducting research on anxiety disorders)
Duke - multiple researchers working alongside Durham VA Medical Center on VISN 6 MIRECC post-deployment mental health research
University of Denver - traumatic stress studies group (this is a cognitive program and not a clinical program, so I am probably going to end up crossing it off my list)
 
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