PTSD and the Veterinarian

[SMHVET]

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Vets, along with other medical professionals suffer from anxiety and some suffer from PTSD. I am moving away from traditional veterinary medicine towards public health in part due to the crappy job situation, but also because of mental problems brought on by the veterinary profession. No matter how many animals you euthanized that "need it" and you are "helping them" it takes a toll of your life.

http://vetsbehavingbadly.blogspot.com/2012/05/ptsd-and-vet-true-but-not-funny.html

 

[catlady816]

Vets, along with other medical professionals suffer from anxiety and some suffer from PTSD. I am moving away from traditional veterinary medicine towards public health in part due to the crappy job situation, but also because of mental problems brought on by the veterinary profession. No matter how many animals you euthanized that "need it" and you are "helping them" it takes a toll of your life.

http://vetsbehavingbadly.blogspot.com/2012/05/ptsd-and-vet-true-but-not-funny.html

If you actually read that article you would have seen that this poor woman was abused by her boyfriend, a horrible trauma followed by the death of her father. Euthanasia played a small part in her anxiety. Stop spamming this forum just because you can't handle your job.

 

[sunshinevet]

If you actually read that article you would have seen that this poor woman was abused by her boyfriend, a horrible trauma followed by the death of her father. Euthanasia played a small part in her anxiety. Stop spamming this forum just because you can't handle your job.

As much as you may feel the article itself in inappropriate I think this is a bit of a flippant response - euthanasia DOES take a toll on your mental health and can contribute greatly to burnout. Ignoring these kinds of issues is actually setting yourself up to fail.

Not only that but studies have shown that those people who help someone else cope with a trauma (ie, vets helping owners) are just as likely to suffer a traumatic response as those who went through the actual trauma.

I sincerely hope that if you ever have to help a collegue in practice through burnout/depression/ptsd you don't tell them that they "can't handle their job". The veterinary profession is tiring, relentless and predisposes to mental illness. I'm sure the OP has posted some annoying things before (I think I remember) but I honestly found your response shocking...

 

[nordicat]

.

 

[Fly Racing]

Sunshine, the first response was well warranted. If you do a search on SMH you will see why. This is the most sincere post I've him him (or her) do. Normally it's more of a "DON'T GO INTO VET MED!! ITS HORRIBLE IN ALL WAYS". I can't really figure out SMH's motives.

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

Dear catlady,

I hope that you never get to become a veterinarian with that attitude toward a colleague as you will likely be one of those veterinarians who will screw another veterinarian over for a nickel. You really have so little compassion that you might need to look at doing something else or stick with poultry medicine where you get to wring a few necks each week and do not have dealings with the pet owning public.

Joe

 

[Fly Racing]

Oops, double post, sorry! But I stand behind Catlady. I know exactly where she is coming from.

 

[Dsmoody23]

What is even happening in this thread?

Since when did PTSD become a catch-all diagnosis for job stress and anxiety?

The key component of PTSD is immediate fear of mortal danger or injury, not anxiety over making client phone calls. After reading the blog post, it's obvious the poster has some rather severe mental issues. But the ones that even edge into the realm of post-traumatic stress have absolutely nothing to do with the veterinary profession.

This post is misleading and intentionally inflammatory. Good job.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Dear catlady,

I hope that you never get to become a veterinarian with that attitude toward a colleague as you will likely be one of those veterinarians who will screw another veterinarian over for a nickel. You really have so little compassion that you might need to look at doing something else or stick with poultry medicine where you get to wring a few necks each week and do not have dealings with the pet owning public.

Joe

This barely makes sense, and sounds like something my drunk uncle would say to start a fight at Thanksgiving.

Take this garbage somewhere else.

Dan

 

[Minnerbelle]

What is even happening in this thread?

Since when did PTSD become a catch-all diagnosis for job stress and anxiety?

I dunno what's happening in this thread, but I think PTSD gets thrown around a lot in vet med because another term for compassion fatigue is secondary traumatic stress. Real phenomenon and is definitely a concern for the profession (not just for the staff being affected, but the animals/clients who get the brunt of it as well). But after seeing a really close friend deal with a very serious case of PTSD after being tortured in a developing country and having been assulted on multiple occasions, I can see how mixing up or equating the two would rub people the wrong way.

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

Hey Dan!

My point is that I have seen veterinarians stab another veterinarian in the back and denigrate colleagues not for being poor doctors but because the other veterinarian did not "measure up" to what they considered their standards however illogical and personal they are. I have seen 3 veterinarians run out of the same hospital because the manager/veterinarian though they did not measure up to some ephemeral standard of the perfect veterinarian of which they were the pristine example. I have worked for a true sociopath of a veterinarian who routinely threw a tantrum but would fire any veterinarian who did not cow to his will. He also committed battery on a technician one night. One of the main reasons this profession sucks is that there is a lack of professionalism and respect between veterinarians. We tend to want everything our way and will throw another veterinarian under the bus if we cannot get it. This attitude really hampers the profession making any progress in dealing with serious issues. We cannot seem to get along and work toward a common goal to save our own skin it seems. One of the major changes we need to make in this profession is to be able to work cooperatively in larger groups so that we and not some corporation controls the future of the profession. We cannot do that if we tolerate some veterinarians valuing their individual success more than the success of the profession as a whole. Catladys callousness to colleagues who deal with the real side effects of the crap in this profession just tells me she lacks any compassion for others who are not the perfect veterinarians to be as she or you will be. I can deal with crazy clients because they often do not know any better. What I worry about more is whether I can trust other veterinarians to act professionally, ethically and not screw me over if we have a difference of professional opinion or different way of approaching clients or cases that works as well as their way or better. And by the way, these issues of depression and burnout are serious issues that at least the professional associations in the United Kingdom and Australia have realized and are addressing. That is more than can be said about our wonderful veterinary schools and the AVMA have been doing. Get your head way from kissing your always sweet smelling ass.

 

[catlady816]

Dear catlady,

I hope that you never get to become a veterinarian with that attitude toward a colleague as you will likely be one of those veterinarians who will screw another veterinarian over for a nickel. You really have so little compassion that you might need to look at doing something else or stick with poultry medicine where you get to wring a few necks each week and do not have dealings with the pet owning public.

Joe

My apologies for having "little compassion" but smhvet is on here all the time trying to convince students to avoid the profession because they don't seem to enjoy their personal career choice and it's frustrating. I'm not saying the person who wrote the article can't handle their job, the blogger clearly has had a rough life and assisting in euthanasia makes it all the more difficult. I have worked with many vets who have mentioned how hard it is and sympathized with them for having to help people through such a tough time. What upsets me is that SMHvet used someone's blog who is clearly suffering to persuade people not to pursue vet medicine because HE doesn't like his job. I'm not saying vets who have PTSD can't handle their job. I apologize if it came off that way as it wasn't my intention.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Hey Dan!

My point is that I have seen veterinarians stab another veterinarian in the back and denigrate colleagues not for being poor doctors but because the other veterinarian did not "measure up" to what they considered their standards however illogical and personal they are. I have seen 3 veterinarians run out of the same hospital because the manager/veterinarian though they did not measure up to some ephemeral standard of the perfect veterinarian of which they were the pristine example. I have worked for a true sociopath of a veterinarian who routinely threw a tantrum but would fire any veterinarian who did not cow to his will. He also committed battery on a technician one night. One of the main reasons this profession sucks is that there is a lack of professionalism and respect between veterinarians. We tend to want everything our way and will throw another veterinarian under the bus if we cannot get it. This attitude really hampers the profession making any progress in dealing with serious issues. We cannot seem to get along and work toward a common goal to save our own skin it seems. One of the major changes we need to make in this profession is to be able to work cooperatively in larger groups so that we and not some corporation controls the future of the profession. We cannot do that if we tolerate some veterinarians valuing their individual success more than the success of the profession as a whole. Catladys callousness to colleagues who deal with the real side effects of the crap in this profession just tells me she lacks any compassion for others who are not the perfect veterinarians to be as she or you will be. I can deal with crazy clients because they often do not know any better. What I worry about more is whether I can trust other veterinarians to act professionally, ethically and not screw me over if we have a difference of professional opinion or different way of approaching clients or cases that works as well as their way or better. And by the way, these issues of depression and burnout are serious issues that at least the professional associations in the United Kingdom and Australia have realized and are addressing. That is more than can be said about our wonderful veterinary schools and the AVMA have been doing.

Uncle Ronnie:

As per most of your posts I've seen, this thread is now about your personal damage.

The OP has been posting the same thread for the last 3 months, every two weeks.

He/she takes a blog post from VBB, misrepresents the information to fit his personal agenda, and then rinses and repeats.

That's where the frustration on the forum comes from. It's not indicative of a lack of professional regard or related to any of the other strange anecdotes you dragged out.

Get your head way from kissing your always sweet smelling ass.

I feel like this would be offensive, if I had any idea what you were trying to say.

Have another scotch. The turkey will be out of the oven around 3.

 

[sunshinevet]

Sunshine, the first response was well warranted. If you do a search on SMH you will see why. This is the most sincere post I've him him (or her) do. Normally it's more of a "DON'T GO INTO VET MED!! ITS HORRIBLE IN ALL WAYS". I can't really figure out SMH's motives.

I've actually read all of SMH's posts. They're not that bad. If it was Joseph it would honestly be a different story. I even acknowledged in MY post that the OP had posted some other "annoying" things before.

My apologies for having "little compassion" but smhvet is on here all the time trying to convince students to avoid the profession because they don't seem to enjoy their personal career choice and it's frustrating. I'm not saying the person who wrote the article can't handle their job, the blogger clearly has had a rough life and assisting in euthanasia makes it all the more difficult. I have worked with many vets who have mentioned how hard it is and sympathized with them for having to help people through such a tough time. What upsets me is that SMHvet used someone's blog who is clearly suffering to persuade people not to pursue vet medicine because HE doesn't like his job. I'm not saying vets who have PTSD can't handle their job. I apologize if it came off that way as it wasn't my intention.

I didn't realise that 10 posts was "on here all the time..."

Absolutely most vets gain satisfaction from their jobs - some do not. However, MOST VETS will experience burnout/compassion fatigue/depression at some point in their career. Mental illness is RAMPANT in this profession. We have had discussions on these forums before about how having people on here like SMHvet and Joseph ARE good for the forums - because these ARE issues that need to be addressed and thought about by students and by people trying to gain entry to the profession.

Sure they're not issues people like to think about. But seriously, SMH has posted 10 times. Most of those posts have been useful to forum members about actual life in the profession and how he/she handles day to day. To have a prevet respond to a post about mental illness that SMH should stop posting such things because "they can't handle their job" is well... yeah... ridiculous. It is just as important for prevets to consider why vets leave the profession as why they join. Because once upon a time... SMH vet was you.

Just because you don't like it doesnt mean its not important. And this is coming from someone who LOVES the veterinary profession and couldn't imagine leaving.

 

[sunshinevet]

Uncle Ronnie:

The OP has been posting the same thread for the last 3 months, every two weeks.

OMG SERIOUSLY the OP has posted ONCE before about the costs associated with going into vet med. Everything else has been pretty bland, benign and helpful!

 

[August West]

Hey Dan!

My point is that I have seen veterinarians stab another veterinarian in the back and denigrate colleagues not for being poor doctors but because the other veterinarian did not "measure up" to what they considered their standards however illogical and personal they are. I have seen 3 veterinarians run out of the same hospital because the manager/veterinarian though they did not measure up to some ephemeral standard of the perfect veterinarian of which they were the pristine example. I have worked for a true sociopath of a veterinarian who routinely threw a tantrum but would fire any veterinarian who did not cow to his will. He also committed battery on a technician one night. One of the main reasons this profession sucks is that there is a lack of professionalism and respect between veterinarians. We tend to want everything our way and will throw another veterinarian under the bus if we cannot get it. This attitude really hampers the profession making any progress in dealing with serious issues. We cannot seem to get along and work toward a common goal to save our own skin it seems. One of the major changes we need to make in this profession is to be able to work cooperatively in larger groups so that we and not some corporation controls the future of the profession. We cannot do that if we tolerate some veterinarians valuing their individual success more than the success of the profession as a whole. Catladys callousness to colleagues who deal with the real side effects of the crap in this profession just tells me she lacks any compassion for others who are not the perfect veterinarians to be as she or you will be. I can deal with crazy clients because they often do not know any better. What I worry about more is whether I can trust other veterinarians to act professionally, ethically and not screw me over if we have a difference of professional opinion or different way of approaching clients or cases that works as well as their way or better. And by the way, these issues of depression and burnout are serious issues that at least the professional associations in the United Kingdom and Australia have realized and are addressing. That is more than can be said about our wonderful veterinary schools and the AVMA have been doing. Get your head way from kissing your always sweet smelling ass.

What long, tiresome block of nothing. Who is this "we" you refer to? You hardly represent the profession as a whole. "We cannot seem to get along and work toward a common goal to save our own skin it seems." Really? Maybe you just need to get out of the situation you are in and move on to something better. I cannot relate one bit to what you are espousing. I have worked with many veterinarians and none seem to fit the mold you are attempting to craft here. Good luck.

 

[nordicat]

Great gravy people, just let this thread die! You don't always need to have the last word.

 

[Dsmoody23]

OMG SERIOUSLY the OP has posted ONCE before about the costs associated with going into vet med. Everything else has been pretty bland, benign and helpful!

Is this not the guy/girl who was triple posting the VIN articles and making the doomsday prophecies?

If not, I was mistaken.

This poster only has 2 troll threads full of fake information.

Duly noted.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Great gravy people, just let this thread die! You don't always need to have the last word.

 

[August West]

Great gravy people, just let this thread die! You don't always need to have the last word.

The thread was sinking to the bottom before you plunged it back to the surface with another last word.

 

[nyanko]

"We cannot seem to get along and work toward a common goal to save our own skin it seems."

Heh, actually this is sort of an accurate portrayal of the current dynamic on a certain private forum for veterinarians. But it really comes down to more of a microcosm of the current economic and sociopolitical system in the country than something unique to vet med as far as I can tell.

 

[SnowyRox]

So much venom on this thread...

I thought the link was interesting and I'm glad that the veterinarian posting is getting help. One of the best things about a DVM is how flexible the degree is. The OP can go into public health when he's burned out of practice. I know other vets who went to work for the government or changes specialties. I hope the blogger gets out of emergency and into something like nutrition where he won't have to euthanize. It sounds like the euthanasias were not the primary cause of the blogger's PTSD but still a contributing factor.

... and now everyone can go back to bashing the OP....

 

[August West]

Heh, actually this is sort of an accurate portrayal of the current dynamic on a certain private forum for veterinarians. But it really comes down to more of a microcosm of the current economic and sociopolitical system in the country than something unique to vet med as far as I can tell.

I honestly have no problem with what anybody posts on here. It is their right being a public forum and all. However, it is also a pre-veterinary forum and I think it is important that our aspiring DVM peers understand that despite having letters after his name, the original poster does not represent the profession as a whole and veterinary medicine is not in the state of complete disarray that he is trying to illustrate. Not that they needed me to point this out. I'm just a troll with clearly too much time on his hands.

 

[August West]

So much venom on this thread...

I thought the link was interesting and I'm glad that the veterinarian posting is getting help. One of the best things about a DVM is how flexible the degree is. The OP can go into public health when he's burned out of practice. I know other vets who went to work for the government or changes specialties. I hope the blogger gets out of emergency and into something like nutrition where he won't have to euthanize. It sounds like the euthanasias were not the primary cause of the blogger's PTSD but still a contributing factor.

... and now everyone can go back to bashing the OP....

👍👍👍👍👍

 

[twelvetigers]

I like how this 'shaking my head vet' never comes back to discuss what they've posted - they just drop the bomb and run. Intelligent conversation surely has to be the greatest catalyst for the change you're looking to incite among the pre-vet crowd, don't you think?

 

[Emiloo4]

I like how this 'shaking my head vet' never comes back to discuss what they've posted - they just drop the bomb and run. Intelligent conversation surely has to be the greatest catalyst for the change you're looking to incite among the pre-vet crowd, don't you think?

👍 Everytime! They clearly have no life.

 

[DVMDream]

This thread....

Needs to die!!

 

[August West]

This thread....

Needs to die!!

No way!! This is fun. Anyone here equine tracking? We need to resuscitate a beaten horse!!! 😱

 

[Minnerbelle]

Just a little reminder for everyone to contribute positively and professionally per SDN's ToS. Please and thank you!

 

[ORvetgirl]

Hmmm...reading the comments on the blogpost that was linked to, I got the impression that the OP of this thread WAS the author of that blogpost. Perhaps they haven't come back and posted again because of the judgemental posts on this thread. I'm all for letting people know when they're being inappropriate with spamming, but perhaps a thread regarding mental illness (in which the OP professes to having "mental problems") isn't the place to jump on the personal attack band wagon.

 

[shellbell4e]

Hmmm...reading the comments on the blogpost that was linked to, I got the impression that the OP of this thread WAS the author of that blogpost..

Maybe... I did see them post in the comments section of some blog posts..so I dont think they are the author. But it seems the blog has many authors.

 

[StartingoverVet]

Just a little reminder for everyone to contribute positively and professionally per SDN's ToS. Please and thank you!

👍 agreed. When the cranky old man is like 😱 about all the crankiness in a thread, you know it has gone overboard

 

[August West]

I had an amazing day working with my vet mentor today at his clinic. I brought a friend (ex-girlfriend 😱) in to train as their new receptionist/tech. Everyone was so supportive and good-spirited. This doctor is amazing. His kind heart, although 30+ years in the game, never fails to inspire me. The clients get it, too and never hesitate to express their gratitude and praise. I am happy to know that such an ideal still exists despite the pressures that exist in our profession. Now I shall have a few drinks and call it a night. Cheers! 🙂

 

[Dsmoody23]

I had an amazing day working with my vet mentor today at his clinic. I brought a friend (ex-girlfriend 😱) in to train as their new receptionist/tech. Everyone was so supportive and good-spirited. This doctor is amazing. His kind heart, although 30+ years in the game, never fails to inspire me. The clients get it, too and never hesitate to express their gratitude and praise. I am happy to know that such an ideal still exists despite the pressures that exist in our profession. Now I shall have a few drinks and call it a night. Cheers! 🙂

Yep. I did my Saturday shift at my home clinic and had a pretty great day too. Our practice just hired a new-graduate doctor which opened up enough summer hours to give me back my full time schedule, now that school is done.
My boss is currently bending over backwards to help me stay at work, as well as one of our doctors who is going through a tough pregnancy and needs adjusted hours.

No backstabbing, drama or shenanigans to report on my end either.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Heh, actually this is sort of an accurate portrayal of the current dynamic on a certain private forum for veterinarians. But it really comes down to more of a microcosm of the current economic and sociopolitical system in the country than something unique to vet med as far as I can tell.

Agreed.

I think that particular interpretation of the message (the whole vets can't seem to cooperate as a whole to "save our own skins" thing), is one that would be extremely difficult to get to without being a follower of said certain private forum for veterinarians though. Esp since it doesn't have much at all to do with the original topic of the thread, or even the rant about the previous boss from hell that josephkneckt was talking about just prior to this statement.

 

[SMHVET]

I am the original poster. I wrote the VBB post. I have been diagnosed by multiple professionals. Since none of you are psychiatrists, I will enlighten you to the fact that there are several types of PTSD. There is combat PTSD (like when I was abused) and non combat PTDS (like when owners constantly call you a greedy bitch, never knowing what their response will be, etc.). Veterinarians have the second highest rates of suicide in the professional world. James Herriot had crippling depression, despite what you read in his books. For those of you that are in undergrad, you need to hear this from someone already in the profession. For those of you in vet school, you need to read VIN because you will see these stories all of the time. The industry is changing and not for the better. That is why I am spending $1000 plus in drugs and therapy and why I am looking into public health. There are literally NO jobs within 2 hours of me. And my family cannot move with me. Sound like your white picket fence, puppy kisses. And after you have euthanized 30 animals in a DAY and had to call the police multiple times to deal with irate emergency clients, call me. And when a referring vet throws you under the bus, call me. When you have to please the client, get the animal well, handle the case to the satisfaction of some out of date RDVM that doesn't remember the life cycle of a hookworm, you will see what I mean.

So if you don't get it now, you will. You better have your eyes wide open when entering this career. And above all, I am not a troll. I am your devil's advocate because as vets meet prevets and vet students, we see people blinded by the stars in their eyes.

 

[Marsala]

I am the original poster. I wrote the VBB post. I have been diagnosed by multiple professionals. Since none of you are psychiatrists, I will enlighten you to the fact that there are several types of PTSD. There is combat PTSD (like when I was abused) and non combat PTDS (like when owners constantly call you a greedy bitch, never knowing what their response will be, etc.). Veterinarians have the second highest rates of suicide in the professional world. James Herriot had crippling depression, despite what you read in his books. For those of you that are in undergrad, you need to hear this from someone already in the profession. For those of you in vet school, you need to read VIN because you will see these stories all of the time. The industry is changing and not for the better. That is why I am spending $1000 plus in drugs and therapy and why I am looking into public health. There are literally NO jobs within 2 hours of me. And my family cannot move with me. Sound like your white picket fence, puppy kisses. And after you have euthanized 30 animals in a DAY and had to call the police multiple times to deal with irate emergency clients, call me. And when a referring vet throws you under the bus, call me. When you have to please the client, get the animal well, handle the case to the satisfaction of some out of date RDVM that doesn't remember the life cycle of a hookworm, you will see what I mean.

So if you don't get it now, you will. You better have your eyes wide open when entering this career. And above all, I am not a troll. I am your devil's advocate because as vets meet prevets and vet students, we see people blinded by the stars in their eyes.

I usually stay away from posting on threads like these, but this really irks me.

Ok. Ok. Ok. OK OK OK! WE GET IT! I am very sorry you aren't happy with your career choice. However, just because you are miserable does not automatically mean that the rest of us will be. AND just because you keep posting about how miserable you are doesn't mean that everyone on the forum is going to drop their plans and change their path because you say it's miserable.

Everyone can have their opinion. I am not judging your opinion. I hope you can find happiness in something, somewhere. But here's my opinion. There will always be crappy people and crappy jobs, and you've got to do your best to make the most of your life. The only person that can create happiness for you is you. Whether that involves pills or an attitude and life change is up to you. If you choose to be unhappy, that is your choice as well, but it is completely unnecessary to drag everyone down with you.

I really do wish you well, OP.

 

[August West]

I am the original poster. I wrote the VBB post. I have been diagnosed by multiple professionals. Since none of you are psychiatrists, I will enlighten you to the fact that there are several types of PTSD. There is combat PTSD (like when I was abused) and non combat PTDS (like when owners constantly call you a greedy bitch, never knowing what their response will be, etc.). Veterinarians have the second highest rates of suicide in the professional world. James Herriot had crippling depression, despite what you read in his books. For those of you that are in undergrad, you need to hear this from someone already in the profession. For those of you in vet school, you need to read VIN because you will see these stories all of the time. The industry is changing and not for the better. That is why I am spending $1000 plus in drugs and therapy and why I am looking into public health. There are literally NO jobs within 2 hours of me. And my family cannot move with me. Sound like your white picket fence, puppy kisses. And after you have euthanized 30 animals in a DAY and had to call the police multiple times to deal with irate emergency clients, call me. And when a referring vet throws you under the bus, call me. When you have to please the client, get the animal well, handle the case to the satisfaction of some out of date RDVM that doesn't remember the life cycle of a hookworm, you will see what I mean.

So if you don't get it now, you will. You better have your eyes wide open when entering this career. And above all, I am not a troll. I am your devil's advocate because as vets meet prevets and vet students, we see people blinded by the stars in their eyes.

Is it also fair to say, however, that your situation is quite unique and might warrant being viewed as such. You state that you are a self-professed adrenalin junkie. That you ignored your intuition that your chosen veterinary discipline might not be in your own best interest to pursue. I think you have a very compelling message and a story that many will benefit to hear.

However, my negative reaction to this thread surfaced with Joseph's subsequent commentary, where he makes statements like:

"One of the main reasons this profession sucks is that there is a lack of professionalism and respect between veterinarians. We tend to want everything our way and will throw another veterinarian under the bus if we cannot get it."

I should have been clearer about where my disagreements lie. Best of luck to you navigating your way to a more peaceful and fulfilling pathway. I admire your self-awareness and appreciate your willingness to share your story with others. Sounds like a good start to getting things back on track. 😳

 

[StartingoverVet]

I am a bit tired of the vitriol thrown at people because they consistently paint an unpleasant view of vet med.

Maybe you have heard it before, but there is a fairly high turnover of people on this forum, and things are said - and need to be said - ad nauseum.

Just because you think vet med is wonderful, doesn't mean that others shouldn't post ALL their negative feelings. If YOU don't like it, too bad, read something else.

The fact of the matter is it is a very difficult industry with unique challenges and one of the worst financials returns on educational investment around (for OOS students especially).

And posting your anecdotal happy story is no indictment of the anecdotal unhappy story. They are both valid, and they may both be encountered by any of the readers of this forum.

So just because ALL someone has to say is bad, does not indict what they are saying, or should it preclude them from saying it.

Just sayin.

 

[Emiloo4]

I am a bit tired of the vitriol thrown at people because they consistently paint an unpleasant view of vet med.

Maybe you have heard it before, but there is a fairly high turnover of people on this forum, and things are said - and need to be said - ad nauseum.

Just because you think vet med is wonderful, doesn't mean that others shouldn't post ALL their negative feelings. If YOU don't like it, too bad, read something else.

The fact of the matter is it is a very difficult industry with unique challenges and one of the worst financials returns on educational investment around (for OOS students especially).

And posting your anecdotal happy story is no indictment of the anecdotal unhappy story. They are both valid, and they may both be encountered by any of the readers of this forum.

So just because ALL someone has to say is bad, does not indict what they are saying, or should it preclude them from saying it.

Just sayin.

I agree that both sides need to be presented. I just don't take this person seriously because they constantly post something, and then never contribute anymore to the conversation. I have no problem with hearing people's realistic views (because these views can be real for many people) and I appreciate having every fact, positive or negative, to make the most informed decision possible. But again, the ninja posting is what makes me wonder the motive of the OP

 

[Dsmoody23]

I am a bit tired of the vitriol thrown at people because they consistently paint an unpleasant view of vet med.

Maybe you have heard it before, but there is a fairly high turnover of people on this forum, and things are said - and need to be said - ad nauseum.

Just because you think vet med is wonderful, doesn't mean that others shouldn't post ALL their negative feelings. If YOU don't like it, too bad, read something else.

The fact of the matter is it is a very difficult industry with unique challenges and one of the worst financials returns on educational investment around (for OOS students especially).

And posting your anecdotal happy story is no indictment of the anecdotal unhappy story. They are both valid, and they may both be encountered by any of the readers of this forum.

So just because ALL someone has to say is bad, does not indict what they are saying, or should it preclude them from saying it.

Just sayin.

The vitriol doesn't come from the information itself, it comes from the way the information is presented.

We've had plenty of productive discussions with unhappy/dissatisfied doctors who are able to genuinely, honestly and productively articulate their concerns.

The two posters in this thread are not doing any of those things.

These posts are hyperbolic, non-productive, and generally misleading.

And that is what it is. It's a public forum, and they're entitled to post whatever they want. But it's not reasonable to expect people with a legitimate, reasoned difference of opinion to simply 'read something else.'

 

[StartingoverVet]

The vitriol doesn't come from the information itself, it comes from the way the information is presented.

These posts are hyperbolic, non-productive, and generally misleading.
.'

Take a deep breath, relax and please read the OP again as if you had no opinion (which was how I read it)... I will wait here patiently while you do that.....
...
...
...
Done.... ok i continue.

This is hyperbole?

To me it was stated very matter-of-factly without any judgement...

Then catlady went all ballistic.

My opinion: This is a person who has struggled and has the courage to mention it to others. Wasn't asking for sympathy, wasn't looking for an argument. I honestly think you guys created the argument, not her.

Hey, if you think the problem is unique to her, that's fine, but I stand by my response. It all looks a little too much like killing the messenger if you don't like the message.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Take a deep breath, relax and please read the OP again as if you had no opinion (which was how I read it)... I will wait here patiently while you do that.....
...
...
...
Done.... ok i continue.

This is hyperbole?

To me it was stated very matter-of-factly without any judgement...

Then catlady went all ballistic.

My opinion: This is a person who has struggled and has the courage to mention it to others. Wasn't asking for sympathy, wasn't looking for an argument. I honestly think you guys created the argument, not her.

Hey, if you think the problem is unique to her, that's fine, but I stand by my response. It all looks a little too much like killing the messenger if you don't like the message.

Yeah. The lines that stick out are "PTSD and the Veterinarian" and "mental problems brought on by the veterinary profession."

There's a link in that post too. Which leads to a blog post, written by the same person, in which he/she details how both of those statements are either only partially true, or entirely false.

The trauma detailed in the post occurred years before the veterinary career. The OP would likely have the same symptoms and difficulties working at any job where customer communication and the possibility of confrontation were present.

The thread title and the original post draw a very straight line between PTSD and veterinary work, which is not reflected in the actual blog post or in actual fact about the mental disorder discussed.

I think the OP is a legitimately troubled person, and I truly have compassion for that, but it doesn't mean they have carte blanche to publicly post incorrect, misleading information.

 

[SMHVET]

I usually stay away from posting on threads like these, but this really irks me.

Ok. Ok. Ok. OK OK OK! WE GET IT! I am very sorry you aren't happy with your career choice. However, just because you are miserable does not automatically mean that the rest of us will be. AND just because you keep posting about how miserable you are doesn't mean that everyone on the forum is going to drop their plans and change their path because you say it's miserable.

Everyone can have their opinion. I am not judging your opinion. I hope you can find happiness in something, somewhere. But here's my opinion. There will always be crappy people and crappy jobs, and you've got to do your best to make the most of your life. The only person that can create happiness for you is you. Whether that involves pills or an attitude and life change is up to you. If you choose to be unhappy, that is your choice as well, but it is completely unnecessary to drag everyone down with you.

I really do wish you well, OP.

I am not the only one...Considering that the veterinary profession is SECOND in suicide, should tell you something. I worked as a small animal tech for 4 years in addition to working at a dairy barn, horse barn, and artificially inseminating cattle. I thought I knew what I was getting into.

Maybe not all of you will experience this, but when you are depressed, there is no "choosing to be happy." Sure you can fake it, but there is no "choosing" about it. There is a physical change to the hippocampus due to stress release of cortisol. From the time I was 2, I knew I wanted to be a vet. But being a vet is far different then I thought it was when I was standing in either the pre-vet shoes (in spite of 4 years in the "business") or when I was in vet school. Multiple vets are going into bankruptcy, some are stay solvent by paying themselves $7/hr and working 6 days a week.

So, yes, I am negative. And if you want to succeed in this career, you will need to look at the truly underserved areas: large animal will not pay that loan payment, but public health might help.

I have answered back on threads when I felt as if there was something I could add. Just because I don't sit here and comment on various threads doesn't mean I drop a bomb and leave. Once people are in vet school, joining VIN is your best bet. It is free for students and you can not only learn about cases, you can hear first hand the troubles and triumphs of other vets.

When someone puts in a non-rosey view of the career, you get upset. You have only the tiniest inkling what the industry is like and how it is changing. Corporations are taking over and big box stores are taking pharmacy meaning either the income is lost or prices are raised elsewhere. And how do you hand it when someone freaks out on you? Because it will happen. Sometimes several times a day.

And as to why I choose the career, it was the only thing I ever wanted to do. I did not know about the PTSD until recently (again, diagnosed by two MDs, one psychiatrist, and two therapists). I love emergency medicine but I developed worsening anxiety (and again, not all of you will have this), worse PTSD, and I manifested a seizure disorder.

The only reason I posted is because these are things I did not know about even though I thought I knew the large and small animal parts of the business. No one warned me about the toll that it would take on my health and my family, because all of the people I worked with were living in the hey day of huge pharmacy sales, easy case, 8-5 job with a 2 hour lunch. It seemed doable.

So. you may think I am unique or weak or whatever. You might think that this cannot happen to you. But it can. I have lost a few friends to suicide. The stats don't lie.

 

[Emiloo4]

I am not the only one...Considering that the veterinary profession is SECOND in suicide, should tell you something. I worked as a small animal tech for 4 years in addition to working at a dairy barn, horse barn, and artificially inseminating cattle. I thought I knew what I was getting into.

Maybe not all of you will experience this, but when you are depressed, there is no "choosing to be happy." Sure you can fake it, but there is no "choosing" about it. There is a physical change to the hippocampus due to stress release of cortisol. From the time I was 2, I knew I wanted to be a vet. But being a vet is far different then I thought it was when I was standing in either the pre-vet shoes (in spite of 4 years in the "business") or when I was in vet school. Multiple vets are going into bankruptcy, some are stay solvent by paying themselves $7/hr and working 6 days a week.

So, yes, I am negative. And if you want to succeed in this career, you will need to look at the truly underserved areas: large animal will not pay that loan payment, but public health might help.

I have answered back on threads when I felt as if there was something I could add. Just because I don't sit here and comment on various threads doesn't mean I drop a bomb and leave. Once people are in vet school, joining VIN is your best bet. It is free for students and you can not only learn about cases, you can hear first hand the troubles and triumphs of other vets.

When someone puts in a non-rosey view of the career, you get upset. You have only the tiniest inkling what the industry is like and how it is changing. Corporations are taking over and big box stores are taking pharmacy meaning either the income is lost or prices are raised elsewhere. And how do you hand it when someone freaks out on you? Because it will happen. Sometimes several times a day.

And as to why I choose the career, it was the only thing I ever wanted to do. I did not know about the PTSD until recently (again, diagnosed by two MDs, one psychiatrist, and two therapists). I love emergency medicine but I developed worsening anxiety (and again, not all of you will have this), worse PTSD, and I manifested a seizure disorder.

The only reason I posted is because these are things I did not know about even though I thought I knew the large and small animal parts of the business. No one warned me about the toll that it would take on my health and my family, because all of the people I worked with were living in the hey day of huge pharmacy sales, easy case, 8-5 job with a 2 hour lunch. It seemed doable.

So. you may think I am unique or weak or whatever. You might think that this cannot happen to you. But it can. I have lost a few friends to suicide. The stats don't lie.

Thank you for responding. It makes me feel like you are a real person with real concerns and I can therefore take it much more seriously. I'm sorry for all you have been through and appreciate you bringing your concerns to a relevant audience. I agree that some people like to get defensive when they hear something negative about their profession, but I think sometimes it's also the way the information is presented. Hope things start looking up for you. And please don't become one of those statistics.

 

[psilovethomas]

I appreciate that the OP shares her experiences as they are insightful and it's good to be prepared for the bad (and the good!) of vet med.
I don't appreciate that the OP makes it seem like I will hate vet med and that I have wasted my entire life and hundreds of thousands of dollars on something that she makes out to seem just awful.
Everyone has their own experiences in life and some of us are more prepared than others to deal with the bumps (or potholes) in the road. I know what I am getting into, and after being on the fence for a while because of posts and articles like this, I have decided "it is what it is" and this is what I want, for better or worse. Just take these posts with a grain of salt; it's good to be aware and know that this sort of stuff is happening.
No need to bicker, guys!

 

[August West]

I am a bit tired of the vitriol thrown at people because they consistently paint an unpleasant view of vet med.

Maybe you have heard it before, but there is a fairly high turnover of people on this forum, and things are said - and need to be said - ad nauseum.

Just because you think vet med is wonderful, doesn't mean that others shouldn't post ALL their negative feelings. If YOU don't like it, too bad, read something else.

The fact of the matter is it is a very difficult industry with unique challenges and one of the worst financials returns on educational investment around (for OOS students especially).

And posting your anecdotal happy story is no indictment of the anecdotal unhappy story. They are both valid, and they may both be encountered by any of the readers of this forum.

So just because ALL someone has to say is bad, does not indict what they are saying, or should it preclude them from saying it.

Just sayin.

Never intended for my "anecdotal happy story to be an indictment of the anecdotal unhappy story". I just offered my anecdote to counter the broadly-painted, hyperbolic statement of Dr. Joseph:

"One of the main reasons this profession sucks is that there is a lack of professionalism and respect between veterinarians. We tend to want everything our way and will throw another veterinarian under the bus if we cannot get it."

That is not even a anecdotal story. That is an indictment of an entire profession by one person who clearly believes that they represent all veterinarians and feel justified in spreading such unsubstantiated bs on a pre-veterinary forum. That is why I presented my own countering narrative of experience. And I welcome others to do the same as well. I do not feel that the profession sucks. I certainly do NOT agree that the majority of veterinarians are selfish and ready to throw one another under the bus if they cannot get everything they want. And I am not sure what one gets out of convincing aspiring pre-veterinary students otherwise.

Just sayin'.

 

[August West]

And as to why I choose the career, it was the only thing I ever wanted to do. I did not know about the PTSD until recently (again, diagnosed by two MDs, one psychiatrist, and two therapists). I love emergency medicine but I developed worsening anxiety (and again, not all of you will have this), worse PTSD, and I manifested a seizure disorder.

Do you think that your being a self-professed adrenaline junkie played a big part in the decision to pursue emergency medicine?

 

[dyachei]

Never intended for my "anecdotal happy story to be an indictment of the anecdotal unhappy story". I just offered my anecdote to counter the broadly-painted, hyperbolic statement of Dr. Joseph:

"One of the main reasons this profession sucks is that there is a lack of professionalism and respect between veterinarians. We tend to want everything our way and will throw another veterinarian under the bus if we cannot get it."

That is not even a anecdotal story. That is an indictment of an entire profession by one person who clearly believes that they represent all veterinarians and feel justified in spreading such unsubstantiated bs on a pre-veterinary forum. That is why I presented my own countering narrative of experience. And I welcome others to do the same as well. I do not feel that the profession sucks. I certainly do NOT agree that the majority of veterinarians are selfish and ready to throw one another under the bus if they cannot get everything they want. And I am not sure what one gets out of convincing aspiring pre-veterinary students otherwise.

Just sayin'.

Just to comment on this - for the most part, my colleagues are very professional even when we don't work in the same hospital. People are willing to share medical records no questions asked, etc. Specialists are also very helpful and I have a great relationship with many of the referral agencies. That being said, there are always people that assume that because I work for a corporate chain, I must not be a good vet. They definitely would throw me under the bus if given half a chance. Others are not willing to share medical records (illegal). I had one guy proceed to lecture me as I was trying to get a history from him.

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

Examples of being thrown under the bus

1. Fellow veterinarian who is not incompetent (now has her ABVP certification) was pressured heavily to resign by a corporate veterinary practice because of her unusual behavior which was diagnosed as bipolar disorder while she was under their employment, this was in 2009.

2. Another veterinary colleague working for same practice in same location was harassed because she was not meeting production levels even though said practice was less than 2 years old and this was the midst of the recession. The veterinarian was placed on a second shift were she could not take advantage of the routine cases like spays and dentistries for production and was only able to get walk-ins and minor cases as the senior doctor appointed by the corporation took all the more profitable cases. This veterinarian already had proved herself successfully in two busy emergency clinics for several years before working for the corporation. This veterinarian was then harassed by veterinarians in management for turning away clients (which she did not) and her competency/medical skills were questioned and denigrated by management.

3. Veterinarian in example 2 returned to work near her home where she still had a house she had not sold. Replaced an associate that was moving with her husband. Clinic owner had had financial difficulties during winter of 2009-2010 but advertised for replacement of associate in summer of 2010. The veterinarian moved back over 2000 miles and started work in August. Practice owner in October of 2010 was told by accountant that the practice was loosing money for the year. Associate was given notice then after working only 3 months. Associate vet was also told her "style" was not what she wanted in her practice. Practice owner's style was not to use monitoring on a routine basis, did not routinely encourage preventative healthcare for pets, thought using an iv catheter for euthanasias was "cruel" . Practice owner is a country, family vet who also sells her jewelry and homemade jams in the waiting area. This veterinarian is now unemployed but lacks confidence to get new job. She is very conscientious and caring with clients but does not carry an ebullient maneer with clients.

4 Veterinarian working for same corporate practice as 1. and 2. in the same location was increasingly isolated and harassed by management veterinarians after a new veterinarian was assigned to lead the clinic. She was often the highest producer at the clinic but her production fell after her schedule was changed by the new veterinarian to cover the hours where there was less opportunity to pick up surgeries and dentistries in which she has advanced training. She was scheduled for fewer shifts at the less productive times and had her medical judgement questioned by veterinarians in management. Eventually, she just resigned and decided to start her own clinic from the ground up.