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[TanMan]

I've never asked him why he attended NYU or why he hasn;t finished paying off his loans. Seemed inappropriate. Corp dentists all seem to have some stories on why they're working Corp. He is from San Diego. His original plan was to work and eventually buy into his uncle's dental practice in San Diego. After working for his uncle for a few years ... he realized that the practice was in a very saturated area and did not think the practice was worth the price. He then got a job working at the corporate level at a dental corp. No dentistry. Just driving around his offices in his territory discussing their performance, etc. et.c After a few years of that .... he grew tired of the Corp lifestyle. Quit there and got a job as a managing dentist at the present Corp I work at. He works 5 days per week. His wife is a teacher. He seems happy. Goes on vacations with his three teenagers. Goes to the gym. Lives in suburbia. I work with a few managing dentists and he is by far the most personable. But he is still paying off his DS loans.

Hopefully your colleague is content and not just putting on a facade. I guess that's what most people really aim for... is to be content with their lives. It's up to every potential dentist to determine whether the profession of dentistry fits into what brings him/her satisfaction in their life. It's not all about the financial aspects, although being poor can make you miserable, whereas having excess cash doesn't always make you happy. For those that are doing this for the money, I'd say it's still pretty good if you're flexible and willing to work hard. Where I came from, there was a saying... if you're in corporate for more than 4 years, you're probably corporate 4 life.

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[pubhealthdent]

You know what’s really telling? These crazy expensive dental schools catch A LOT of crap here on SDN. And yet, I have never seen any of their graduates come on here defend their $500,000+ in student loans. Quite the contrary, I’ve seen many posts by those approaching graduation that are beginning to feel the gravity of their financial situation.

Big Hoss

I went to one of those expensive dental schools. And if I had to do it again I'd still have gone where I went. Yeah student loan debt sucks (but is manageable), however coming out of school I was much more prepared than all of my friends that went to the in state public school I turned down.

 

[TeethAreKewl]

No one is holding a gun to your head here. You can make a choice. You just had better understand what that $500,000 student loan balance is going to do to you, since you’ve said that’s what you’re looking at. And if you’re looking to specialize after dental school, plan on adding another $200,000+ to your loan balance. I will look forward to hearing your call to Dave Ramsey then.

Big Hoss

Love to read me some spicy big Hoss replies on a Saturday afternoon

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I went to one of those expensive dental schools. And if I had to do it again I'd still have gone where I went. Yeah student loan debt sucks (but is manageable), however coming out of school I was much more prepared than all of my friends that went to the in state public school I turned down.

What was your total debt when you graduated? How much are you making a year? What is your monthly loan payment? How much do you still owe? Are you banking on PSLF? If so, do you feel it’s fair that the 2/3rds of all Americans that don’t have a college degree just eat your forgiven loan balance all the while you make more money than them? And 6 months after graduating, did you really think those few extra procedures in dental school made you that much more skilled than your peers from those state schools?

Big Hoss

 

[pubhealthdent]

What was your total debt when you graduated? How much are you making a year? What is your monthly loan payment? How much do you still owe? Are you banking on PSLF? If so, do you feel it’s fair that the 2/3rds of all Americans that don’t have a college degree just eat your forgiven loan balance all the while you make more money than them? And 6 months after graduating, did you really think those few extra procedures in dental school made you that much more skilled than your peers from those state schools?

Big Hoss

What was your total debt when you graduated? $523k
How much are you making a year? 197k yr 1, 223k yr 2, set to be about 260k for yr 3
What is your monthly loan payment? 1500/month on PAYE
Are you banking on PSLF? Yes
If so, do you feel it’s fair that the 2/3rds of all Americans that don’t have a college degree just eat your forgiven loan balance all the while you make more money than them? No, but I also don't think it's fair that I lose half my salary in taxes, or that my mom made me go to bed at 8:30 when I was little but my friends could stay up til 9. Life isn't always fair. The program exists, I'm treating the medicaid patients that most dentists refuse to treat, and I'm getting loan repayment assistance because of it.
And 6 months after graduating, did you really think those few extra procedures in dental school made you that much more skilled than your peers from those state schools? Well my production was certainly higher because I was more efficient from increased reps in school. And had more confidence and less stress for the same reason.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

What is your monthly loan payment? 1500/month on PAYE

So...your loan payment doesn’t even cover your accrued interest. Are you encouraging predents to assume this debt snowball?

Big Hoss

 

[pubhealthdent]

So...your loan payment doesn’t even cover your accrued interest. Are you encouraging predents to assume this debt snowball?

Big Hoss

If they have a plan to repay it, yes

 

[ASPEN'S NIGHTMARE]

What was your total debt when you graduated? $552k
How much are you making a year? 197k yr 1, 223k yr 2, set to be about 260k for yr 3
What is your monthly loan payment? 1500/month on PAYE
Are you banking on PSLF? Yes
If so, do you feel it’s fair that the 2/3rds of all Americans that don’t have a college degree just eat your forgiven loan balance all the while you make more money than them? No, but I also don't think it's fair that I lose half my salary in taxes, or that my mom made me go to bed at 8:30 when I was little but my friends could stay up til 9. Life isn't always fair. The program exists, I'm treating the medicaid patients that most dentists refuse to treat, and I'm getting loan repayment assistance because of it.
And 6 months after graduating, did you really think those few extra procedures in dental school made you that much more skilled than your peers from those state schools? Well my production was certainly higher because I was more efficient from increased reps in school. And had more confidence and less stress for the same reason.

I always wanted to help those on medicaid/ poor and rural areas anyways. How are you getting repayment assistance for it!? I didn't even know that was a thing!

 

[pubhealthdent]

I always wanted to help those on medicaid/ poor and rural areas anyways. How are you getting repayment assistance for it!? I didn't even know that was a thing!

Working for an FQHC or IHS clinic can qualify you for several loan repayment options including PSLF, NHSC loan repayment, IHS loan repayment, state loan repayment

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

If they have a plan to repay it, yes

The best laid battle plans never survive the first shot, or so they say. Right now you’re banking on PSLF. But, what if they cap forgiveness/tax the forgiven balance. You actively preparing for that?

Predents, you have to be nuts to assume a debt so large you can’t even keep up with the interest. @pubhealthdent, your balance on graduation was $552,000. What is it now?

Big Hoss

 

[pubhealthdent]

The best laid battle plans never survive the first shot, or so they say. Right now your banking on PSLF. But, what if they cap forgiveness/tax the forgiven balance. You actively preparing for that?

Predents, you have to be nuts to assume a debt so large you can’t even keep up with the interest.

Big Hoss

I am actively preparing for that. I'm putting about 1/3 of my take home pay into an investment account where right now I'm getting 13٪ return. I'm optimistic, but not delusional

But FWIW, every change that has been made to the program thus far has only affected those who took out their loans after the change was enacted. As I have no new loans, and verified payments in the system, the odds of me being ineligible at the end are slim.

 

[ASPEN'S NIGHTMARE]

Working for an FQHC or IHS clinic can qualify you for several loan repayment options including PSLF, NHSC loan repayment, IHS loan repayment, state loan repayment

Wow, I never knew any of these things even existed! Thanks for the info!

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I am actively preparing for that. I'm putting about 1/3 of my take home pay into an investment account where right now I'm getting 13٪ return. I'm optimistic, but not delusional

But FWIW, every change that has been made to the program thus far has only affected those who took out their loans after the change was enacted. As I have no new loans, and verified payments in the system, the odds of me being ineligible at the end are slim.

I’m glad you trust the government so much and that you aren’t at risk for getting screwed.

But, since your monthly payment doesn’t even cover your accrued interest, how much is your loan balance increasing every year? The world wants to know.

Big Hoss

 

[pubhealthdent]

I’m glad you trust the government so much and that you aren’t at risk for getting screwed.

But, since your monthly payment doesn’t even cover your accrued interest, how much is your loan balance increasing every year? The world wants to know.

Big Hoss

Its increasing about 10k/yr but as my income goes up that number will decrease

Also, you could tone down the condescension a little bit

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

you could tone down the condescension a little bit

I only know one volume.



Big Hoss

 

[rectangle]

What was your total debt when you graduated? $523k
How much are you making a year? 197k yr 1, 223k yr 2, set to be about 260k for yr 3
What is your monthly loan payment? 1500/month on PAYE
Are you banking on PSLF? Yes
If so, do you feel it’s fair that the 2/3rds of all Americans that don’t have a college degree just eat your forgiven loan balance all the while you make more money than them? No, but I also don't think it's fair that I lose half my salary in taxes, or that my mom made me go to bed at 8:30 when I was little but my friends could stay up til 9. Life isn't always fair. The program exists, I'm treating the medicaid patients that most dentists refuse to treat, and I'm getting loan repayment assistance because of it.
And 6 months after graduating, did you really think those few extra procedures in dental school made you that much more skilled than your peers from those state schools? Well my production was certainly higher because I was more efficient from increased reps in school. And had more confidence and less stress for the same reason.

Thanks for your insight. Not many in your situation seem to come on SDN and talk about it.
Can I ask what kind of setting you work in? Rural/urban/etc? I was talking to one of my friends in dental school about debt and he mentioned he actually got contacted to work in Alaska after graduation. (For the record, he is in a state school with a low COA.)

 

[pubhealthdent]

Thanks for your insight. Not many in your situation seem to come on SDN and talk about it.
Can I ask what kind of setting you work in? Rural/urban/etc? I was talking to one of my friends in dental school about debt and he mentioned he actually got contacted to work in Alaska after graduation. (For the record, he is in a state school with a low COA.)

I work for an FQHC in Rural Wisconsin.

I interviewed at a few places in Alaska. Let your friend know to watch out for income to cost of living ratio. It's crazy expensive to live up there and the salaries I was offered were similar to those in the lower 48 where cost of living is generally much lower

 

[TanMan]

What was your total debt when you graduated? $523k
How much are you making a year? 197k yr 1, 223k yr 2, set to be about 260k for yr 3
What is your monthly loan payment? 1500/month on PAYE
Are you banking on PSLF? Yes
If so, do you feel it’s fair that the 2/3rds of all Americans that don’t have a college degree just eat your forgiven loan balance all the while you make more money than them? No, but I also don't think it's fair that I lose half my salary in taxes, or that my mom made me go to bed at 8:30 when I was little but my friends could stay up til 9. Life isn't always fair. The program exists, I'm treating the medicaid patients that most dentists refuse to treat, and I'm getting loan repayment assistance because of it.
And 6 months after graduating, did you really think those few extra procedures in dental school made you that much more skilled than your peers from those state schools? Well my production was certainly higher because I was more efficient from increased reps in school. And had more confidence and less stress for the same reason.

I'm kinda stupid when it comes to PSLF, but could you go over how PSLF works and specific details?

- How much is forgiven?
- How long do you have to work?
- Where do you have to work or can you open your own office?
- The forgiven amount, is it taxable?
Edit: Is it a government program?

I’m glad you trust the government so much and that you aren’t at risk for getting screwed.

But, since your monthly payment doesn’t even cover your accrued interest, how much is your loan balance increasing every year? The world wants to know.

Big Hoss

At what price point do you think a dental license is no longer worth pursuing?

 

[pubhealthdent]

I'm kinda stupid when it comes to PSLF, but could you go over how PSLF works and specific details?

- How much is forgiven?
- How long do you have to work?
- Where do you have to work or can you open your own office?
- The forgiven amount, is it taxable?

You have to work in some sort of public service. So for dentists, either Indian health clinic, immigration/ICE, prison, FQHC, or FQHC look-alike (must be 501c3). you have to make 120 qualifying payments. Must be on one of the income-based repayment plans.

After making 120 payments, the rest of your loan is forgiven, tax-free. So for me, after 10 years, I will probably have paid about $200k and will have about $500k forgiven with no tax repercussions

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I will probably have paid about $200k and will have about $500k forgiven with no tax repercussions

Fingers crossed...

U.S. Student-Loan Forgiveness Program Proves Costly

The U.S. is braced to forgive billions of dollars in student loans to doctors and other white-collar Americans with expensive educations, under a 2007 law designed to help modestly paid workers in public service. The loan forgiveness doesn’t kick in until 2017 for the first enrollees, but the...

www.wsj.com

Big Hoss

 

[SoftGel]

I would have to agree with Big Hoss, you are gambling here. The government may well screw you over. I see it everyday in the military regarding retirements and contracts. I saw so many people get screwed during the transgender about face in the Navy. Entire careers destroyed in the blink of an eye. Go over to the military forums if you want some examples of the government changing the rules mid game and screwing people over. These programs come and go.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

At what price point do you think a dental license is no longer worth pursuing?

Anything above $400,000 would absolutely give me pause.

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I would have to agree with Big Hoss, you are gambling here. The government may well screw you over. I see it everyday in the military regarding retirements and contracts. I saw so many people get screwed during the transgender about face in the Navy. Entire careers destroyed in the blink of an eye. Go over to the military forums if you want some examples of the government changing the rules mid game and screwing people over. These programs come and go.

Big Hoss

 

[TanMan]

You have to work in some sort of public service. So for dentists, either Indian health clinic, immigration/ICE, prison, FQHC, or FQHC look-alike (must be 501c3). you have to make 120 qualifying payments. Must be on one of the income-based repayment plans.

After making 120 payments, the rest of your loan is forgiven, tax-free. So for me, after 10 years, I will probably have paid about $200k and will have about $500k forgiven with no tax repercussions

Hmm, this is interesting and appears to be potentially exploitable. I wonder if you could start your own chain of 501(c)(3) "non-profit" dental offices whose objective/mission statement is to help the underserved by opening in areas where there's a shortage of dentists, pay yourself a bare minimum salary for 120 months (to keep IBR ridiculously low) with significant retained earnings and extract the value through deferred earnings or alternative means, while simultaneously attracting future dental labor by dangling the possibility of PSLF.

Edit: If you're only getting 500k over 10 years, that's only 50k per year of value. If you're forgoing 50k post-tax (maybe 80k pretax income) or more, would you think it's still worth it? I pose this question since I don't know how much PSLF dentists make in comparison to private practice dentists.

I would have to agree with Big Hoss, you are gambling here. The government may well screw you over. I see it everyday in the military regarding retirements and contracts. I saw so many people get screwed during the transgender about face in the Navy. Entire careers destroyed in the blink of an eye. Go over to the military forums if you want some examples of the government changing the rules mid game and screwing people over. These programs come and go.

It does seem a bit of a bet, especially on a long term program that doesn't necessarily have a guarantee the transcends each adminstration.

 

[pubhealthdent]

Edit: If you're only getting 500k over 10 years, that's only 50k per year of value. If you're forgoing 50k post-tax (maybe 80k pretax income) or more, would you think it's still worth it? I pose this question since I don't know how much PSLF dentists make in comparison to private practice dentists.

Seems worth it to me because I'm able to put that extra 50k per year into IRA/HSA/401k/ investment accounts. My current salary is $223k, so yes technically speaking I could afford to pay off the loan using standard 10-yr repayment but why would I when theres a possibility of having someone else pay off 2/3 of it.

 

[pubhealthdent]

I would have to agree with Big Hoss, you are gambling here. The government may well screw you over. I see it everyday in the military regarding retirements and contracts. I saw so many people get screwed during the transgender about face in the Navy. Entire careers destroyed in the blink of an eye. Go over to the military forums if you want some examples of the government changing the rules mid game and screwing people over. These programs come and go.

Of course it's a gamble. As I stated earlier, I'm optimistic but not delusional. But for the time being, I'll play their game, while also keeping that money that would've gone to pay down my loans somewhere it'll grow and have it available to aggressively pay back my loans if for some reason the program does go away

 

[pubhealthdent]

how are you planning on paying back your debt as a public health dentist? PSLF?

Yes PSLF. But the key was finding an FQHC that paid more than the average like $140k that I was seeing from the rest. If I wanted to pay off the loan in whole, I could afford to with my current salary but if someone else is going to offer to do it for me, go right ahead

 

[2TH MVR]

What was your total debt when you graduated? $523k
How much are you making a year? 197k yr 1, 223k yr 2, set to be about 260k for yr 3
What is your monthly loan payment? 1500/month on PAYE
Are you banking on PSLF? Yes
If so, do you feel it’s fair that the 2/3rds of all Americans that don’t have a college degree just eat your forgiven loan balance all the while you make more money than them? No, but I also don't think it's fair that I lose half my salary in taxes, or that my mom made me go to bed at 8:30 when I was little but my friends could stay up til 9. Life isn't always fair. The program exists, I'm treating the medicaid patients that most dentists refuse to treat, and I'm getting loan repayment assistance because of it.
And 6 months after graduating, did you really think those few extra procedures in dental school made you that much more skilled than your peers from those state schools? Well my production was certainly higher because I was more efficient from increased reps in school. And had more confidence and less stress for the same reason.

I commend you for being so transparent with your school debt and work salary. Seeing real numbers helps predents immensely. Btw my daughter works in Madison. Last time I was there .... I toured the Epic Campus. I was blown away.

I went to one of those expensive dental schools. And if I had to do it again I'd still have gone where I went. Yeah student loan debt sucks (but is manageable), however coming out of school I was much more prepared than all of my friends that went to the in state public school I turned down.

It sounds like you have a financial plan. The issue that myself, @Big Time Hoosier et al. has is that you are one example. A direction that clearly goes against the message that is being conveyed to predents. You clearly stated that you selected the more expensive DS over the cheaper DS. According to you .... you were better prepared and thusly ... higher production. But do you really know for sure? You stated that some of your dental buddies that went to the less expensive school are not doing as well as you. You recall that it's been said that success after DS has more to do with business/marketing abilities, personality types, and generally being good with people .... than it does with speed or knowledge of restorations.

So again .... you sound like you are doing fine. Congrats .... and I mean that. I also enjoy reading your posts.

But predents must hear a united front and a clear message. GO TO THE CHEAPEST SCHOOL. You may be an outlier who is doing fine, but your experience most likely will not be representative of the future young dentists.

 

[SoftGel]

I agree with above, I VERY MUCH appreciate @pubhealthdent being transparent with their financial data. It means a lot to us pre-dents to see these numbers. So THANK YOU! I hope your plan works out in the long run.

 

[TanMan]

Seems worth it to me because I'm able to put that extra 50k per year into IRA/HSA/401k/ investment accounts. My current salary is $223k, so yes technically speaking I could afford to pay off the loan using standard 10-yr repayment but why would I when theres a possibility of having someone else pay off 2/3 of it.

Sounds like a sweet and relatively safe bet/gig. It is a feasible alternative for people who have massive amounts of debt but do not have the desire to start their own office and/or do not want to work corporate. I'm definitely in the other camp of ffs/ppo, but it's good that you're fairly compensated for treating populations that most dentists would not want to treat (including myself). Often, if the state's medicaid program pays terribly, the medicaid population suffers from lack of access to care.

 

[mostlyghostly]

How competitive is it to get a job at a FQHC?

 

[pubhealthdent]

How competitive is it to get a job at a FQHC?

Depends on location usually. Easy in big cities and even easier the more rural you go

 

[CGtoDentistry]

I would have to agree with Big Hoss, you are gambling here. The government may well screw you over. I see it everyday in the military regarding retirements and contracts. I saw so many people get screwed during the transgender about face in the Navy. Entire careers destroyed in the blink of an eye. Go over to the military forums if you want some examples of the government changing the rules mid game and screwing people over. These programs come and go.

Agreed as well

 

[Blackca3]

What was your total debt when you graduated? How much are you making a year? What is your monthly loan payment? How much do you still owe? Are you banking on PSLF? If so, do you feel it’s fair that the 2/3rds of all Americans that don’t have a college degree just eat your forgiven loan balance all the while you make more money than them? And 6 months after graduating, did you really think those few extra procedures in dental school made you that much more skilled than your peers from those state schools?

Big Hoss

Come on guy...you are the personification of pot calling the kettle black. You know your entire education and career has been funded by these same 2/3rds of Americans. At least some of these 2/3rds have access to seeing him, whereas you are completely inaccessible to them. You both are thriving on government assistance, you just treat different populations.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Come on guy...you are the personification of pot calling the kettle black. You know your entire education and career has been funded by these same 2/3rds of Americans. At least some of these 2/3rds have access to seeing him, whereas you are completely inaccessible to them. You both are thriving on government assistance, you just treat different populations.

Yep, and those same 2/3rds paid me under 6 figures and made me live in the very definition of middle of nowhere (literally the nearest Walmart was almost an hour away) for years, all to take care of those who protect this country abroad. Never mind always being on the short list to get sent who knows where overseas. Definitely wasn’t getting paid $200,000+ with free school. If I was, probably would have stayed in. Oh, and I forgot about the rat infested base housing!

Big Hoss

 

[Blackca3]

Yep, and those same 2/3rds paid me under 6 figures and made me live in the very definition of middle of nowhere (literally the nearest Walmart was almost an hour away) for years, all to take care of those who protect this country abroad. Never mind always being on the short list to get sent who knows where overseas. Definitely wasn’t getting paid $200,000+ with free school. If I was, probably would have stayed in.

Big Hoss

Again, come on...no one made you do anything. You chose that government payback program just like he chose his. You might not have been drawing a base pay of 200K+ as an O3 out of school but your total compensation package including BAH, school paid for, stipend, healthcare, etc. was comparable. Deployments? You agreed to it just like those signing for the massive student loans. There is no difference.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Again, come on...no one made you do anything. You chose that government payback program just like he chose his. You might not have been drawing a base pay of 200K+ as an O3 out of school but your total compensation package including BAH, school paid for, stipend, healthcare, etc. was comparable. Deployments? You agreed to it just like those signing for the massive student loans. There is no difference.

You’re right, based on my work experience prior to dental school, I knew exactly what I was getting into. And, I’m proud I did it and I’d do it all over again.

As a taxpayer, I have no qualms with the HPSP, HRSA, USPHS, and whatnot. These programs are known costs, not some open ended forgiveness programs without defined benefits to the taxpayer that are now projected to cost hundreds of billions more than originally projected.

Big Hoss

 

[Blackca3]

You’re right, based on my work experience prior to dental school, I knew exactly what I was getting into. And, I’m proud I did it and I’d do it all over again.

As a taxpayer, I have no qualms with the HPSP, HRSA, USPHS, and whatnot. These programs are known costs, not some open ended forgiveness programs without defined benefits to the taxpayer that are now projected to cost hundreds of billions more than originally projected.

Big Hoss

….the military is a black hole for money, I know you've seen the waste same as I have. As a fellow taxpayer I have no qualms with loan forgiveness for dentistry. So which of us is right? The military also offers very similar loan forgiveness programs for dentistry. You are treating a population deemed critical by the government same as he is treating a population deemed critical by that same government.

Dentist using loan forgiveness is not the same as people who study underwater basket weaving using loan forgiveness.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

….the military is a black hole for money, I know you've seen the waste same as I have. As a fellow taxpayer I have no qualms with loan forgiveness for dentistry. So which of us is right? The military also offers very similar loan forgiveness programs for dentistry. You are treating a population deemed critical by the government same as he is treating a population deemed critical by that same government.

Dentist using loan forgiveness is not the same as people who study underwater basket weaving using loan forgiveness.

Well, I guess none of this will really matter when the house of cards collapses in the next 10-20 years. Eventually the world will know we’re broke as a country. Hopefully he gets his loans forgiven before that happens.

Big Hoss

 

[bracketbuster68]

Well, I guess none of this will really matter when the house of cards collapses in the next 10-20 years. Eventually the world will know we’re broke as a country. Hopefully he gets his loans forgiven before that happens.

Big Hoss

 

[2TH MVR]

Too funny.

 

[Saddleshoes]

GOLDEN HANDCUFFS!

I feel so sorry for today's young dentists. They are trapped on the dental treadmill. They absolutely have to work to payoff that debt. They cannot afford to take a month off to go do a humanitarian mission. They cannot afford to only work part time. They cannot afford to do charity work for a patent here and there. If they find dentistry is not for them they cannot afford to go try something else. They cannot afford to buy a house. They cannot afford to stay home to raise children. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Back to the original message of this thread...
Predents, beware of Golden Handcuffs!