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About to interview for a vascular surgery job at a for-profit hospital. This is tricky. This means they are not a qualifying employer for public student loan forgiveness. I am set up correctly - I declared formally that I intend to seek forgiveness and consolidated all my loans into the direct category. My residency is at a not for profit hospital so I will have 5 years of 10 down. If I were to take a job at this new place, they would have to give me a comparable deal which sounds insane - They would have to make sure $400k in debt is gone after a 5 year period. Additionally, I will be taxed on this and the taxes for $400k would approach $160k. They would have to increase my base salary to mitigate the taxes...but that would be taxed also...long story short, they would need to increase my base by approximately $53k yearly to break EVEN with the loan repayment taxes. Anyone heard of a place insane enough to even entertain this? Granted, they are for profit, so probably not first time someone put them on the spot about this.
 

dpmd

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About to interview for a vascular surgery job at a for-profit hospital. This is tricky. This means they are not a qualifying employer for public student loan forgiveness. I am set up correctly - I declared formally that I intend to seek forgiveness and consolidated all my loans into the direct category. My residency is at a not for profit hospital so I will have 5 years of 10 down. If I were to take a job at this new place, they would have to give me a comparable deal which sounds insane - They would have to make sure $400k in debt is gone after a 5 year period. Additionally, I will be taxed on this and the taxes for $400k would approach $160k. They would have to increase my base salary to mitigate the taxes...but that would be taxed also...long story short, they would need to increase my base by approximately $53k yearly to break EVEN with the loan repayment taxes. Anyone heard of a place insane enough to even entertain this? Granted, they are for profit, so probably not first time someone put them on the spot about this.
They don't need to improve on their numbers. It needs to be better than whatever qualifying job you could get. Those tend to pay less. Even being at a nonprofit hospital doesn't guarantee it qualifies because you might paid by a for profit physician foundation. Do you have a qualifying job you are comparing against?
 

cpants

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Pretty sure you have to pay income tax on the forgiven amount from PSLF too, so I wouldn't factor that in. Difference of 50k in salary may not be that crazy for a vascular surgeon. Depends on overall market, compensation and how badly they need you.
 
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dpmd

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Pretty sure you have to pay income tax on the forgiven amount from PSLF too, so I wouldn't factor that in. Difference of 50k in salary may not be that crazy for a vascular surgeon. Depends on overall market, compensation and how badly they need you.
Not for pslf you don't. You are thinking of the longer forgiveness options.
 
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From what I’ve seen most hospitals are not for profit and it’s something you have to ensure (also that you aren’t signing with a For profit physician group Who is working with a not for profit hospital. The place in question is a great fit but not to the time of nearly 400k.
 

WheezyBaby

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PSLF is working out for people right now, but there's always a possibility that doesn't continue to be the case. Something to think about in your mental math, along with how the future employer meets your career goals and geographic requirements. I'm pursuing PSLF but I'll have 7 years of residency/fellowship training, definitively planning to stay academic / nonprofit, and am going into a comparatively low reimbursement field. If I was in vascular and my desire was partnership track in PP world, I would just find the ideal job and pay the debt since you'll have the disposable income. My 2c. And as above, PSLF is untaxed
 
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They the government cannot take PSLF away from me because I’m already in the program. They can only say it won’t work for future loans starting after X date.
 

Dr.LeoSpaceman

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They the government cannot take PSLF away from me because I’m already in the program. They can only say it won’t work for future loans starting after X date.

That's not true. You might be in the program, but if they end it in year 9 you might be out of luck. Now it would depend how exactly it's done, as they could certainly grandfather people who have made a certain number of payments.

Here's the relevant bit from StudentAid.gov
Can I be certain that the PSLF Program will exist by the time I have made my 120 qualifying payments?

We can’t make any guarantees about the future availability of PSLF. The PSLF Program was created by Congress, and Congress could change or end the PSLF Program.

Also, I certainly have heard of people getting considerations for loan payments in a contract. But really, it doesn't matter what other places have done. If they're going to give you a contract that spells out those terms (and you have someone make sure it's as bullet proof as possible), then that's all you need. The difference of course is that they're almost certainly going to lock you in for some period of time or put you on the hook to repay some portion of what they're offering. That's one of the benefits of PSLF. Doesnt matter what combination of places you work for, as long as they add up to the 120 qualifying payments.
 
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I am grandfathered into because I’m already in it, they cannot take a program away you are already part of. This has already been established - They can stop letting people in. The lawsuit would be amazing if they tried to tell people at year 9 it doesn’t work for them anymore.
 
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WheezyBaby

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I am grandfathered into because I’m already in it, they cannot take a program away you are already part of. This has already been established - They can stop letting people in. The lawsuit would be amazing if they tried to tell people at year 9 it doesn’t work for them anymore.

I'm not aware or any reputable sources saying that PSLF grandfathering is guaranteed, as much as I would love that to be the case
 
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Once you fill out that declaration/check the box that you intend to do it, you are in and they cannot take it away.
 
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But of course do your own research and reach your own conclusions before making financial decisions as you know 🤷‍♂️
 
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dpmd

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Eh, would be easy enough to change what constitutes a qualifying payment and screw people out of it that way. Good luck winning that lawsuit when they point out the promissory note makes no guarantees about it.
 

Dr.LeoSpaceman

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Once you fill out that declaration/check the box that you intend to do it, you are in and they cannot take it away.

You're wrong. I'm not sure there's a more definitive source than federal financial aid website. If the program is terminated by an act of Congress, and the budget for it is zeroed out, there's no money to give you regardless of what box you checked. It may be unlikely to happen, but I certainly wouldn't operate under the assumption that it's impossible.

And as a sidenote, I find it tiresome when discussions are reduced to "everyone can reach there own conclusions". Some things aren't a matter of opinion. You can reach your own conclusions about whether pursuing PSLF vs. loan repayment through a PP job makes more financial sense or is more in line with your personal risk tolerance. But the fact that PSLF isn't guaranteed to anyone, even if they've started in the program, isn't really open to personal interpretation.
 
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Vandalia

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Once you fill out that declaration/check the box that you intend to do it, you are in and they cannot take it away.
Actually this is not correct. There is no contractual relationship between you and the government. That is the only way the government can be bound.

Ask military retirees about the guarantee of free healthcare for their lifetime.
 

TimesNewRoman

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Once you fill out that declaration/check the box that you intend to do it, you are in and they cannot take it away.

Dude, I think you are giving the government WAY too much credit. I saw a headline today saying AOC is selling shirts that say “tax the rich” - you think there’s going to be a lot of sympathy for a surgeon making 400k+ not giving their loans forgiven?

Now I’m not saying they will, in fact I think they won’t, but to take it for granted is unwise.
 

Dave1980

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Once you fill out that declaration/check the box that you intend to do it, you are in and they cannot take it away.
No true. I'm in year 8 of PSLF and am hoping that the program survives 2 more years. It can be stopped at any point. You aren't guaranteed anything except death and taxes.
 
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Eh, would be easy enough to change what constitutes a qualifying payment and screw people out of it that way. Good luck winning that lawsuit when they point out the promissory note makes no guarantees about it.

They deemed that 4 out of my 10+ loans didn't have qualifying payments and extended the deadline for them by a year. Sucks.
 
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Draw your own conclusions = think what you want. There are legal grounds to expect them to honor the program for those who have started it (That is why when it is brought up in the political world, it is stated that only newly originated loans would be ineligible), but even that has not yet happened. I have gone over this with colleagues in the legal community. Make your own decisions and thoughts - Don’t listen to me - You are responsible for your own choices and outcomes.
 

LucidSplash

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Draw your own conclusions = think what you want. There are legal grounds to expect them to honor the program for those who have started it (That is why when it is brought up in the political world, it is stated that only newly originated loans would be ineligible), but even that has not yet happened. I have gone over this with colleagues in the legal community. Make your own decisions and thoughts - Don’t listen to me - You are responsible for your own choices and outcomes.
I think most are just advocating for having a viable Plan B. I am hoping for PSLF too and 2021 will be the year to see if it comes to fruition. But in the meantime, I am planning my finances as though it won’t happen. Because yes while there are legal routes to go through if the government tries to end the plan for those currently enrolled, or moves the goalpost, that is going to be a process that takes YEARS and there is no guarantee.

Do what you need to qualify for it. But have a Plan B.
 

Lem0nz

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You came here for advice mate, and they're giving it to you. You're kinda' being a little belligerent about it. Many (perhaps all?) of us have also spoken to others in the medico-legal community and the vast majority of us, and I will add myself into the pool, have been advised that PLSF is not a guarantee. My legal advice DID argue, much like you have stated, that there is absolutely a compelling case to be made to sue the government if they try to abolish it without grandfathering people in who signed MPNs that included it as a piece, but having cause to sue and being successful in such an endeavor is not 100%.

You also skipped a vascular fellowship and didn't come from a combo program but are going into a vascular surgery job? Seems like you'd have more than 5 years if you did a fellowship, most (but not all) fellowships are at non-profits. Interesting - worth looking into, you should probably have more qualifying payments.

I am interviewing right now also and my experience at for profit hospital systems is they either advertised up front they'll pay your student loans or they did not, and if its the latter, they generally will not just throw another $400,000 at you. At best what I've found is they'll crank up the sign on bonus to ~100k and call it money for student loans. You of course can and should negotiate the contract with them but there is not always a compelling reason they need to budge. As others have stated, you will have more success if you have competing contract offers and term sheets that you can physically bring to the table from other institutions when you get to a letter of intent/contract stage to further the discussion in your favor.
 
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You came here for advice mate, and they're giving it to you. You're kinda' being a little belligerent about it. Many (perhaps all?) of us have also spoken to others in the medico-legal community and the vast majority of us, and I will add myself into the pool, have been advised that PLSF is not a guarantee. My legal advice DID argue, much like you have stated, that there is absolutely a compelling case to be made to sue the government if they try to abolish it without grandfathering people in who signed MPNs that included it as a piece, but having cause to sue and being successful in such an endeavor is not 100%.

You also skipped a vascular fellowship and didn't come from a combo program but are going into a vascular surgery job? Seems like you'd have more than 5 years if you did a fellowship, most (but not all) fellowships are at non-profits. Interesting - worth looking into, you should probably have more qualifying payments.

I am interviewing right now also and my experience at for profit hospital systems is they either advertised up front they'll pay your student loans or they did not, and if its the latter, they generally will not just throw another $400,000 at you. At best what I've found is they'll crank up the sign on bonus to ~100k and call it money for student loans. You of course can and should negotiate the contract with them but there is not always a compelling reason they need to budge. As others have stated, you will have more success if you have competing contract offers and term sheets that you can physically bring to the table from other institutions when you get to a letter of intent/contract stage to further the discussion in your favor.
I’m a 0+5...
 

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Once you fill out that declaration/check the box that you intend to do it, you are in and they cannot take it away.

 
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