Publications before grad school

[SnowBubble]

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Hi guys, I have a question about publications before grad school.

Are they very common? I'm hoping to apply to the top tier1 programs and I've heard (and I don't know if this is true, which is why I thought I'd ask on this thread) that people who apply to tier1 schools (and I'm thinking UCB, UCLA, Yale, USC, etc) are first author for at least 1 publication. Is this true?

Also, I'm wondering about the rank ordering on authors. I read that if you are first author, it doesn't matter if there is one other, two other, or more authors because you are still first author. In order words, as long as you are first author, if there are two other authors listed it does not make you less competitive than someone who has only one other author listed after his/her name?​

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Finally, what are my chances if I'm applying to tier1 programs and I don't have a publication? I might... but I'm not completely sure yet.

Thank you!​

 

[JockNerd]

Obviously a first-author pub in a huge journal would be the best thing, but not many folks walk in with that. At that stage of the game, having a publication at all is awesome, nevermind the author place. It's really hard to do, mostly because the turnaround time on articles can be looooong.... I just had a paper published for which we collected the data about 2 years ago. Hard to do that in a 4-year undergrad degree.

It would also be uncommon for an undergrad to be first on anything but a fairly simple analysis based on a thesis-type project. Which is great, but again not something earth-shattering.

Having multiple authors on a paper is a good thing, so long as it isn't just because authorship is given away like halloween candy in the lab--shows you can work as part of a team.


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You can apply to big schools w/o a pub, but you do need solid research experience and something in the works that could be publishable. A poster presentation or two is good as well.
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[SnowBubble]

Thanks JockNerd! Wow. I didn't know it would take so long to get something published. My professor just informed me that he's going to start working on getting something published.. but I assumed that meant he'd have it done by Nov (when apps are nearing their deadlines)!

So then would I indicate on my CV that I have a pub in progress?

Thanks!

 

[deadmau5]

Obviously a first-author pub in a huge journal would be the best thing, but not many folks walk in with that. At that stage of the game, having a publication at all is awesome, nevermind the author place. It's really hard to do, mostly because the turnaround time on articles can be looooong.... I just had a paper published for which we collected the data about 2 years ago. Hard to do that in a 4-year undergrad degree.

It would also be uncommon for an undergrad to be first on anything but a fairly simple analysis based on a thesis-type project. Which is great, but again not something earth-shattering.

Having multiple authors on a paper is a good thing, so long as it isn't just because authorship is given away like halloween candy in the lab--shows you can work as part of a team.


​

You can apply to big schools w/o a pub, but you do need solid research experience and something in the works that could be publishable. A poster presentation or two is good as well.
​

I know the feeling. I finally got one published after a year of back and forth. We had to do additional experiments. Now I got another one that we submitted last September --> came back as Revise and Resubmit. Worked on it until December and then it has sat since then on the backburner. We're only now resubmitting it! My super likes to do all the submitting... oh well.

 

[neuropsyance]

Thanks JockNerd! Wow. I didn't know it would take so long to get something published. My professor just informed me that he's going to start working on getting something published.. but I assumed that meant he'd have it done by Nov (when apps are nearing their deadlines)!

So then would I indicate on my CV that I have a pub in progress?

Thanks!

Make sure in your research experience part of your CV that you describe what you've done with this professor (give some detail, but don't write an article 🙄). You should only mention this publication if you know you'll definitely be on it, and only if it is actually in press.

Hope that helps,
neuropsyance

 

[neuropsyance]

Also, remember that lots of people get accepted without publications. I got accepted into Ohio State last year (pretty sure that's tier 1) and all I had was my name on two posters.

Publications really just give you and edge over many other people.

 

[mixolyd]

Also, remember that lots of people get accepted without publications. I got accepted into Ohio State last year (pretty sure that's tier 1) and all I had was my name on two posters.

I'm in a similar position, or will be. I'm preparing this year to apply next year by taking psych credits, volunteering at a local mental health clinic, and being a research assistant for a psych professor. He told me that we will probably present a poster at a conference in the spring, which is good, but my issue with this is that I want to apply to clinical psych programs and he's a social psych professor. It's the only research opportunity that I could find unfortunately. I don't plan on applying to tier 1 programs, but still want to get into a decent funded program. Will it work against me that I'm not doing research in the field that I'm going into? Thanks 🙂

 

[justme08]

Mixolyd, I've had different reactions to this myself, so I'm assuming like many things in the process the answer is more program dependent and subjective. Because, I wasn't able to start an RA position until the beginning of this summer, and I'm also applying for 2011, I've taken on just about every research op available to me, trying to make up for lost time. So, I'm worried about looking unfocused.

I've been told by one POI that the fact I sought out the opportunities is what is important.

I've been told by others (in general) that as long as I can write a strong statement about my research interests for graduate school it will be okay.

I've gotten the impression that research intensive programs wouldn't look favorably on my cornucopia approach😀 I am applying for mostly balanced programs though.

I don't think that balanced programs will care that the subject (it is still psych after all) that what you are currently researching is not what you plan to research later. I think they care more that you are getting involved and doing the research. That is JMHO others might chime in with other perspectives.

 

[mixolyd]

Mixolyd, I've had different reactions to this myself, so I'm assuming like many things in the process the answer is more program dependent and subjective. Because, I wasn't able to start an RA position until the beginning of this summer, and I'm also applying for 2011, I've taken on just about every research op available to me, trying to make up for lost time. So, I'm worried about looking unfocused.

I've been told by one POI that the fact I sought out the opportunities is what is important.

I've been told by others (in general) that as long as I can write a strong statement about my research interests for graduate school it will be okay.

I've gotten the impression that research intensive programs wouldn't look favorably on my cornucopia approach😀 I am applying for mostly balanced programs though.

I don't think that balanced programs will care that the subject (it is still psych after all) that what you are currently researching is not what you plan to research later. I think they care more that you are getting involved and doing the research. That is JMHO others might chime in with other perspectives.

Thanks for the helpful advise. I'm likewise applying to balanced programs (even more heavily clinically focused programs if I can find them) so I'm in the same boat.

Are you getting clinical experience as well? Find anything? I got pretty lucky. My research professor connected me to a clinical psychologist that runs an outpatient mental health clinic for cognitively disabled folks. They have all sorts of issues, so I'm getting lots of valuable exposure. Hopefully you can find something like that. Even if your program doesn't require it, I think clinical experience makes you look like a more serious applicant.

 

[justme08]

I hope programs value clinical experience, I think only three of the 13 I'm looking at really will though. I have over a year as a volunteer faciliatator in an inpatient psychiatric hospital. I'm also conducting clinical interviews, on a topic I am interested in, for my lab.

 

[SnowBubble]

Make sure in your research experience part of your CV that you describe what you've done with this professor (give some detail, but don't write an article 🙄). You should only mention this publication if you know you'll definitely be on it, and only if it is actually in press.

Hope that helps,
neuropsyance

Thanks neuropsyance, that helps! So the potential pub is my thesis (for undergrad) and a faculty member is helping me turn part of into a pub in return for 2nd or 3rd author (he might have someone else help too). but since i've never published anything before and he's mostly working through it, i have no idea what's happening with it. so i will put it on my CV but i don't know if i should also make a comment about how part of it will is in progress to be published or something like that...?

I don't think it will be in press before the next month (since we've only just begun working on it). but i do think mentioning it might fluff my app more. i guess i could always bring it up if i get invited for an interview (hopefully it'll at least be in press by then!). (congrats on ohio! i think it's tier 1 too🙂) i guess my question is whether mentioning it will help my chances of getting interviewed at tier 1 schools or if it'll make it seem like im trying to make it appear like something when it isn't/turn schools off.

thanks!

 

[neuropsyance]

Thanks neuropsyance, that helps! So the potential pub is my thesis (for undergrad) and a faculty member is helping me turn part of into a pub in return for 2nd or 3rd author (he might have someone else help too). but since i've never published anything before and he's mostly working through it, i have no idea what's happening with it. so i will put it on my CV but i don't know if i should also make a comment about how part of it will is in progress to be published or something like that...?

I don't think it will be in press before the next month (since we've only just begun working on it). but i do think mentioning it might fluff my app more. i guess i could always bring it up if i get invited for an interview (hopefully it'll at least be in press by then!). (congrats on ohio! i think it's tier 1 too🙂) i guess my question is whether mentioning it will help my chances of getting interviewed at tier 1 schools or if it'll make it seem like im trying to make it appear like something when it isn't/turn schools off.

thanks!

It's definitely worth putting on your CV. I'd put it in your research experience section, and make sure that you mention it's a thesis that you are trying to get published.

 

[JoeTinker]

Based on my experiences, I've always been slightly puzzled by the concept of acquiring publications/authorship while still in undergrad. Not to discredit anyone who has accomplished this, but I was a very active RA for 6 semesters in a lab that published more than their share of work. I spent the first 3 learning all of the protocols and running participants before doing the department's undergrad honor's program for the final 3. After much time and effort, I graduated fully content with my honor's thesis and poster, only to lose out during last year's application process to those with publications (based on the little feedback I was able to receive afterward from POI's). The lab I was in was just not set up for undergrads to be authors--the PI was a workhorse and grad students were little different.

So, my question: was my experience just unfortunate in this sense (though I hold no resentment about the opportunities provided), should I have been more demanding about getting my name on things, or am I just still a little bitter about not getting into a program last spring? 🙂

 

[futurepsydoc]

I'll add my two cents for what its worth, hopefully it be helpful.

As many have posted on this thread, publications are not easy to come by as an undergraduate. They definitely provide an edge for some people, but the nature of the publication (i.e., tier of journal, journal article vs. book chapter, authorship level - 1st, 2nd, 10th, etc) will determine the degree of advantage to be sure. As others have pointed out, one big pub as first author means way more than three pubs on papers with 6 or 7 authors.

Poster/paper presentations are much more common for applicants. I would assume, to a large extent, that this level of productivity is a "silent" requirement for any top tier program. Expect your competitors to have at least a few presentations under their belts.

At the very least, one should have a MINIMUM (I stress the word minimum for good reason) of one year of experience working in an active research lab. Most successful applicants I know worked in lab for 2 years after graduating before applying to doctoral programs. Why? This shows commitment to the research process and it ensures that you have developed some of the requisite skills needed to be successful at the doctoral level.

But, what I think is more important than any of these aspects, is the degree to which the director/professor in charge of the lab is familiar with your work, contributions, drive, and commitment to the scientific endeavor. You can have all the pubs an presentations in the world, but if you fail to get a ringing endorsement from those who oversee your work, those in the best place to judge your proclivity for doctoral study, any and all CV builders can become obsolete. Conversely, one great independent study with a stellar letter of recommendation from a productive faculty member, can carry a great deal of weight.

 

[SnowBubble]

Thanks for that futurepsydoc!

It's definitely worth putting on your CV. I'd put it in your research experience section, and make sure that you mention it's a thesis that you are trying to get published.

Okay thanks! So does it make a difference if it's part of my thesis that I'm trying to get published?

 

[Student4Life0]

Would someone mind clearing this up for me; what is the difference between the stages of a work that is in press vs in preparation, or any of the other stages?

 

[thewesternsky]

Would someone mind clearing this up for me; what is the difference between the stages of a work that is in press vs in preparation, or any of the other stages?

Sure. In the order that they occur:

'In preparation' means that one is preparing the paper for submission, which can mean a lot of things. Some people don't believe that this identifier should be used at all, because you can be "preparing" many manuscripts that never come to fruition. If you use this one, use it cautiously and only once the data has been analyzed and the paper is being written.

The next stage is 'submitted' or 'under review'. This is for papers that have been submitted to a journal.

The next stage (which some people use and others do not) is 'under revision'. This happens when you hear back from a journal and the editor's decision is "revise and resubmit", and you are revising the manuscript in order to resubmit it. Note that once you do resubmit it, the paper would go back to being 'submitted' or 'under review'.

The last stage before actual publication is 'accepted' or 'in press'. This means that the paper has been accepted by the journal, and will be published shortly.

 

[Ollie123]

That...seems more than a bit presumptuous as an undergrad working on someone else's dissertation. Oftentimes even a full-time project coordinator on a grant will not be included as an author on publication unless they played an intellectual role in shaping it. Heck even as an upper-level grad student I don't necessarily expect to be included on the paper just because I helped with a study - it depends on what exactly my role was.

Now what might be more reasonable to do is to ask them about ways to get more involved and take on more demanding tasks (helping with analysis, etc.). Depending on your abilities, their generosity, etc. you may be included on the paper, or at least a poster.

Alternatively, depending on the magnitude of the study, you could speak with them about the possibility of putting together a poster yourself based on part of the study. Then if it works out and you do a great job putting it together, work independently, etc. you would have a better sell on being included as an author if the work you do can contribute to a manuscript (or perhaps be a secondary paper on its own depending on the scope of the project).

 

[Ollie123]

Well it doesn't need to be "your" project to be first author on it. Very large studies can sometimes have 10, 20 or more papers come out of a single dataset (this is likely far beyond the scope of a dissertation though...these will generally be million+ dollar grants).

It will depend heavily on the type of research being done exactly how to go about this. Think about questions you could ask of the data in her dissertation that is available, but not something she was planning to look at. Perhaps she used a measure that is still fairly new and hasn't had a lot of psychometric data published yet...you could perhaps do a factor analysis of it. Just an example, but there are often tons of "small" subsets of a project that can be carved out. Pretty much anything can at least be a poster, many conferences accept just about everything submitted - though I wouldn't recommend something completely meaningless that has already been done to death or is just plain embarrassing to show others (I mention it because this is sadly, not that uncommon).

Being willing to take the lead on it will depend on your comfort with many things right now. How are you with stats? If you are told to run an ANOVA, could you perhaps do some googling and brush up and figure it out, or would you be curled up in a ball in the corner at the mere idea? If you aren't at least somewhat comfortable with analysis, you likely aren't ready to first-author something (in my opinion anyways) but you may give the grad student an idea that you could help with and be a second or third author on, and learn as you go.

 

[Marissa4usa]

Thanks for the responses guys!!

Ollie123, Thanks for your response it was very helpful, I think I have been confused for a while as to what exactly a poster presentation is and how you go about doing it, since I thought you had to have your own research (1st authorship basically) in order to present a poster. Is this not the case? If I am very close with the Ph.D student I am working with it is a possibility she might let me submit one of her studies (we have done several) to a convention to do a poster presentation? I had no idea this is how it worked.

If I was that graduate student, I would not do this. What I would be more than happy to do is to let you use the data collected in the context of my research, come up with a research question on your own and analyze the data.
Really, authorship is based on how much you contributed to it from an intellectual standpoint. Anybody (and please don't take this the wrong way) can enter data, run participants, etc. However, undergraduate RA's are an essential part in research and I honestly wouldn't know what to do if I had to do all that work on my own. However, by presenting something at a conference as a first author, it is pretty much implied that you are the "owner" of this piece of intellectual property but you don't neccessarily have to carry out the data collection yourself.
So, what I would do, is to look at the data and think about what question you could answer with the data you have. And for a poster presentation it doesn't have to ground breaking research as long as long as you have a solid justification for doing what you are doing.

 

[Ollie123]

Happy to help.

To clarify...I wouldn't necessarily phrase it that way. I would perhaps focus on an actual question that can be asked of the data that isn't described in the paper, and ask the grad student if they would mind if you looked at it, and then go from there. At least for the analyses they have already planned out, they should be the ones running it. Re-read the proposal and do some literature searches of your own to make sure you are familiar with what is out there.

That may be what you had in mind, I just wanted to make sure you weren't just planning to walk up and say "Hey, can I analyze some data" without any clear question or reason for doing so.

 

[AgapeBlue]

Yup! Totally gotcha. Thanks again for all the advice.

If you guys are still around I would love your opinion on one last thing. After doing a bunch of snooping around I BELIEVE that at my university I can get IRB Approval if I have a faculty mentor on the application, basically. This is what I thought the honors thesis program was for (and it is), but I'm going to TRY and get cozy with some professors so that I can ask around and see who would be willing to sponsor me for some independent research. IF I were to do this, would it be bad if I did a study in Social Psychology? My school lacks a Clinical Psychology program, but our Social program is great and professors are easily accessible. My guess from what I've read so far on this forum is that grad schools would like that I have a bunch of research experience, yadda yadda, and will overlook the fact that it is in a different field of Psych as long as my research interests are now focused (upon application/interview) and I have some great ideas to bring to the table. Am I right? 🙂

You will need a faculty mentor in order to do a study, not only for approval, but for several other reasons namely guidance (i.e., designing a study, completing the proper documentation for IRB and the like), and ensuring there will be someone who can write you an LOR that says, "Yes, I know firsthand that this person is a competent researcher and has excellent X, Y, Z skills"...etc.

Getting IRB approval is not an arduous process, but having someone who has gone through the process a gazillion times is worth the price of admission. Approval is not automatic simply because you have a faculty mentor. The documentation has to be done correctly or they will send it back with a request for revisions if necessary.

Clinical, social, cog...doesn't really matter who you are working with. The mentor for my study was a social psychologist and I chose her because she is an expert in the field I wanted to research...and I knew her personally from taking her courses. I approached it from a clinical viewpoint, but working with a faculty member who is an expert in the field and one who has published extensively on the topic were priorities for me. We also got along really well...so bonus!

My advice is to find someone who has interests similar to yours and then ask them if they would be willing to be your advisor for your independent study. Most university websites have the faculty listed along with their interests so you can use that as a starting point when deciding who to contact.

Best,
AB🙂