PhD/PsyD Grad school path for nontrad

[m1ntyfresh]

Hey all,

I've read through a lot of the posts here and elsewhere, have spoken to some admissions offices, my PI at my lab, and some PsyDs back home (NY) so I have a plan in mind (postbacc/master's -> doctorate -> work with adolescents -> PP?). Just want to get a sanity check.

Key background points:

• Turning 29 soon
• Majored finance then compsci at a top 30 US university, 3.855 GPA
• Was software engineer/manager in tech industry at top companies
• Quit my job last year and pivoted to psych this Jan after a break. I want to help people like me who I feel are underserved (queer POC, immigrants & immigrant children) and I enjoy working with others in this way.
• Currently an RA at a neuroscience lab with well-connected and regarded PI (h-index 50+). They are promising co-authorship as well as intros to profs at UCLA/Columbia and research is going well. I'm working on face recognition/grid cells.
• Currently volunteer at the national English-language crisis hotline here in Japan and received good training for it.

Looking forward:

• Aiming for at least one co-authorship by next June and then plan to go back to NYC. Could continue with my current lab remotely.
• Really enjoy both research & the hotline so I want a mix of both moving forward.
• Current research interest is DBT/BPD & trauma, and maybe autism spectrum/ADHD.
• I want to work with adolescents based on my hotline experience and then maybe open a private practice later.
• I am location-bound to NYC, maybe LA. Willing to flex for the internship years only if necessary. So, Columbia, Fordham, and the CUNYs are basically it for fully funded. Yeshiva, LIU and St. John's are partially funded. I am not considering the New School based on what I've read lol. In LA it's just UCLA & USC right excluding the degree mills? Am I missing anything?
• In terms of other degrees: not interested in MSW as I want to learn about psych rigorously and be an excellent clinician. Also not as interested in community organization/advocacy - I did a lot of volunteering growing up and that side of things was always more of a drag for me. Keeping PsyD open but I have money and demographic (the other students) concerns.
• Money is not a problem, but I'd rather save if I can. I'm also not super time-gated - if I don't get in one year, I'm happy to wait and reapply if that's a thing.

About the postbacc:

I need a postbacc (CU has one) or masters in psych (CU, CCNY, Hunter, and Fordham have ones that seem decent) and was hoping to get some advice here.

I'm also reading that a postbacc is actually a better idea if I'm gunning for doctorate programs. And I guess for MA I'd need to do some online coursework on my own, at least introductory psych, stats, and research methods. I took AP Psych and Business Stats so I hope that could count but I will reach out and ask. But I sense that MA programs could connect me better to tenured profs which will help with PhD admissions? For CU for example, the MA is housed in the same school as the PhD (TC) while the postbacc is not. They also literally pair you with a PhD student mentor. Any thoughts here?

Overall, just looking for any big obvious red flags with my plan or if things don't make sense. Thanks for any help!

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[summerbabe]

Overall, just looking for any big obvious red flags with my plan or if things don't make sense.

Why do you want a PhD since private practice, hotline work, serving specific populations, etc can all be achieved with a master's level degree (or no degree, in the case of a hotline)? You'll need to be able to articulate that rationale in your personal statement, which will help programs determine fit between you/your goals and what they can offer.

As somebody who will be incredibly geographically limited, you have very little wiggle room, especially if these programs operate on a true mentorship model.

A typical applicant is likely to find between 0-2 professors in any given program who fit research wise (maybe more if a program is known for a specific interest with multiple profs concentrated in the same subfield).

So if a prof is not taking a new student for an admission cycle or there turns out to be a stronger applicant who will receive their offer, your chances of admission at that program may be 0% or close to it.

The overwhelming norm is applying for a single prof at each program with 12-16 programs total so you'll likely be well below that figure based on your restrictions. And why a lot of people with significant geographical restrictions are recommended to consider/reconsider master's level options.

But I sense that MA programs could connect me better to tenured profs which will help with PhD admissions? For CU for example, the MA is housed in the same school as the PhD (TC) while the postbacc is not.

It likely depends on whether there will be specific & meaningful interactions. PIs tend to give preference for people who they have directly worked with on research or those who come with a glowing rec from the lab from a trusted colleague (like their former mentor or somebody they have published a lot and trust).

But if the MA program doesn't provide opportunities for their students to have those kinds of interactions (e.g., research), I don't think it would do much to differentiate your application to a CU PhD.

As for postbaccs, I think the norm is informal, unpaid postbaccs (versus credit hour programs), which seem like pretty big money makers for these schools. For example, can you arrange to have a postbacc experience directly with a CU-based lab? Given how there are paid research opportunities out there that boost people's CVs for grad school, it doesn't make sense to drop a bunch of cash on tuition for that same privilege.

 

[m1ntyfresh]

Thanks for your response. To clarify, I want to move away from hotline work to in-person clinical but through hotline I've learned that I love talking to people and helping them with mental health issues (beyond just my friends!)

I believe a doctorate would give me better training to employ cutting-edge evidence-based (and other) treatment in my practice than a master's degree and honestly I don't trust the quality of the education at the MA level. I heard that I can bill more as a doctorate holder (can someone confirm) and in general have more earning potential. I also feel that the doctorate helps me keep my options open for later.

I think I didn't make this clear in OP but the ideal for me is a mix of research, therapy, and/or running a clinic/center because I don't think I could give therapy 5 days a week 9 to 5. It's just that if I *had* to choose one I'd choose giving therapy. I also landed on PP because it has the highest earning potential and that is important to me as well.

The main thing is I don't feel comfortable giving up the research route completely as I do enjoy it so far, I have the technical aptitude and talent for it, and there's some questions I'm interested in. I'd be specifically interested in process research for PTSD and BPD treatments. I also am curious about the role of hope/belief in treating people with trauma. I also don't want to close the door on assessment, teaching, or leadership roles. I have interest in autism spectrum/ADHD as mentioned, I TA'd in college and enjoyed that, and I was already a manager at a tech company and I quite enjoyed being in a leadership role. Finally, there of course is the allure of the pedigree & status. Immigrant family and all that - can't help it. I'm not too sure if any of these reasons would be attractive to adcoms though.

I could arrange for unpaid RA work with a CU lab directly, but I'd still need to get my coursework done anyway. Rather do it as a package with an existing program than roll my own since that sounds like a way more of a headache. What do you think?

 

[Sanman]

Thanks for your response. To clarify, I want to move away from hotline work to in-person clinical but through hotline I've learned that I love talking to people and helping them with mental health issues (beyond just my friends!)

I believe a doctorate would give me better training to employ cutting-edge evidence-based (and other) treatment in my practice than a master's degree and honestly I don't trust the quality of the education at the MA level. I heard that I can bill more as a doctorate holder (can someone confirm) and in general have more earning potential. I also feel that the doctorate helps me keep my options open for later.

I think I didn't make this clear in OP but the ideal for me is a mix of research, therapy, and/or running a clinic/center because I don't think I could give therapy 5 days a week 9 to 5. It's just that if I *had* to choose one I'd choose giving therapy. I also landed on PP because it has the highest earning potential and that is important to me as well.

The main thing is I don't feel comfortable giving up the research route completely as I do enjoy it so far, I have the technical aptitude and talent for it, and there's some questions I'm interested in. I'd be specifically interested in process research for PTSD and BPD treatments. I also am curious about the role of hope/belief in treating people with trauma. I also don't want to close the door on assessment, teaching, or leadership roles. I have interest in autism spectrum/ADHD as mentioned, I TA'd in college and enjoyed that, and I was already a manager at a tech company and I quite enjoyed being in a leadership role. Finally, there of course is the allure of the pedigree & status. Immigrant family and all that - can't help it. I'm not too sure if any of these reasons would be attractive to adcoms though.

I could arrange for unpaid RA work with a CU lab directly, but I'd still need to get my coursework done anyway. Rather do it as a package with an existing program than roll my own since that sounds like a way more of a headache. What do you think?

Those two things are mutually exclusive for most people. If you are doing research/teaching, you are likely at a university/AMC/VA hospital. You can run a clinic and be a clinician in PP, but you make most of your money on seeing patients. I used to manage clinicians and still see between 6-10 patients/day at my pervious job (You will be working more than 40 hours if you want to be a manager/director). If you only want to run a clinic, you are either combining that with academic work or not doing so until you work your way up to that in the mid/later career phase.

I suggest slowing down, narrowing your job interests a bit as it will give you a better idea of how to pursue things. If you want to teach or engage in research as the primary focus of your career, you will likely need to expand your program search if you want a real career. Most of the good mentors don't live in NYC and it is your job to seek them out, it is not theirs to make your life easy.

If you primarily want to do clinical work, then your options are wider and I would consider masters level programs if you primarily want to do therapy. While doctoral programs likely have a better education, you may be overeducating yourself for the jobs you want. This wastes time and money. There are also more manager jobs than you may know about with MA level degrees as they supervise themselves fir the most part.

 

[PsyDr]

I wouldn’t use phrases like “only if necessary” or “location bound”.

There are dozens of applicants for one spot. Most will have the same qualifications (eg., 4.0 GPA, good GREs, lab experience, and some personal statement about how they want to help people). Schools want students who will say “yes sir”, and do anything they’re told. Any suggestion to the contrary is bad.

 

[m1ntyfresh]

What types of masters level programs would you recommend?

 

[summerbabe]

I believe a doctorate would give me better training to employ cutting-edge evidence-based (and other) treatment in my practice than a master's degree and honestly I don't trust the quality of the education at the MA level.

IMO, most therapy growth happens outside of academia at practicum sites, pre & postdoctoral training, and with ongoing clinical work. I'm about 5 years removed from completing my PhD and the most significant ways that I've improved happened once I finished on-site coursework (although I did have a good foundation from my PhD). Assessment is a different matter and that's an area where PhD education and supervision can potentially really shine.

PhD academics are experts at research. Some of them might like therapy (and even practice) but others begrudgingly did therapy because they had to in order to graduate and pursue professorship.

At my public university which housed multiple PhD and license eligible MA/MS programs, the students who probably received the best (or at least the most) therapy training were our MFT graduates. They had an on-site clinic with rooms with 1 way mirrors and their professors would observe a whole bunch of live therapy sessions and then give them feedback after.

Some doctoral psychology programs will use video or audio recordings (and are limited in how many they can/will review) but many largely rely on us to report on our experiences of therapy, which is a more limited form of supervision since it's already filtered through our biased perspectives and perceptions.

And if you really want to be on the cutting edge, the best way is probably to get licensed and then attend seminars and receive group consultation from therapy experts once you're licensed.

I heard that I can bill more as a doctorate holder (can someone confirm) and in general have more earning potential.

Yes, insurance rates are a bit higher. But in a cash practice, you set your own price and what you make is ultimately more tied to things like business acumen, marketing, networking, and how much value your patients feel like they are receiving.

I think I didn't make this clear in OP but the ideal for me is a mix of research, therapy, and/or running a clinic/center because I don't think I could give therapy 5 days a week 9 to 5.

As Sanman alluded to, most people who are therapists do a lot of therapy. 5-6 hours scheduled per each 8 hour workday is probably average. Not everybody is equipped to do that. People can find ways to add variety including research. But the clinicians I know who do research are often doing that for free on their own time while carrying their full caseloads. Some may have a few hours devoted to research from their job but that's not really enough to get substantial work done, which means evenings and weekends.

So a question to consider is who will pay me to do research? And why would they choose me instead of a bunch of other smart and qualified people, including those who are willing to spend well beyond the standard 40 hour work week on it and will move to literally any location in the US for the right postdoc or job?

Overall, I'd recommend you keep exploring what you'd like from a career. I think a lot of people start off like you - with a general interest in helping others and some relevant volunteer experiences. Those who end up enjoying this career path are often already very aware of the realities of this career or that their needs/preferences ultimately fit well enough with those realities.

For example, you mentioned an interest in both working with underserved queer POC/immigrants and private practice since it can be more lucrative. Those aims are probably at odds because most private practice operates on cash pay or via employer based health insurance, which underserved populations often have less access to.

So what do we do? Stay in PP but see a different clientele? Do pro bono work or sliding fee work and take a financial hit? Work for a community based organization that directly serves these populations and take a huge pay cut? There's no right answer but it's important food for thought IMO. Good luck!

 

[R. Matey]

I believe a doctorate would give me better training to employ cutting-edge evidence-based (and other) treatment in my practice than a master's degree and honestly I don't trust the quality of the education at the MA level. I heard that I can bill more as a doctorate holder (can someone confirm) and in general have more earning potential. I also feel that the doctorate helps me keep my options open for later.

You are wise to be leery. It can be good, but honestly the training is so variable that it's hard to really know. Going to NYC is a bit of an advantage because there are no shortage of institutes where you could theoretically receive decent post-degree supervision. Historically, the options have been better for social workers than LMHCs or LMFTs, but this is rapidly changing (FTR, I wouldn't recommend an LMFT degree--the association is falling apart at the state level and many of techniques are covered in the LMHC curriculum. I wouldn't be at all surprised AAMFT didn't exist within the next 10-20 years). That said, I think one thing to think about is that just because you received good training at the master's level does not necessarily mean that you will easily be able to distinguish yourself amongst all of the other poorly trained ones. In order to be exceptional, you need to hone a specialty and develop a client base; the former sounds like it is opaque to you at this juncture.

You should also know that the modal outcome for Ph.D. programs in clinical and counseling psychology is clinical work so there's no reason you couldn't pursue the degree with this end in mind. It wasn't completely uncommon where I went to school for students in both clinical and counseling to be in their early 30s so I don't think you're too non-trad. I do think you shouldn't limit yourself to NYC/LA (there's an entire country out there) since it's overly competitive and I don't think a Ph.D. is worth completely paying for, even if you have the money. TC's post-bacc program is a fine choice, but it's a bit risky obviously since you may not get into a doctoral program and then would have no credential to show for your investment. You could always go master's-in-counseling to Ph.D. in counseling psychology, but these programs are fewer and further in between and most certainly will require you to relocate.

So, if you're really, really, really are not willing to go anywhere but NYC/LA, then I agree with others that a master's degree gets you most of what you want. If you decide you are more flexible, then post-bacc + Ph.D. is a fine choice albeit with a bit of risk. Try for a Ph.D. there if you like, but I wouldn't accept an unfunded offer just to stay in some desirable metro by any means. Whether you do a master's or Ph.D., you need a specialty/research focus.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I'm a bit confused on how one can be "location-bound" to NYC and LA, considering that they are on opposite sides of the country, even moreso when the OP currently lives in Japan. Even if the restriction was solid blue states--owing to the OP being queer--that would leave a lot more than LA and NYC.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm a bit confused on how one can be "location-bound" to NYC and LA, considering that they are on opposite sides of the country, even moreso when the OP currently lives in Japan. Even if the restriction was solid blue states--owing to the OP being queer--that would leave a lot more than LA and NYC.

"If I can't be within 15 miles of a movie star while I work 60 hour weeks in grad school, is that even living?"

 

[ClinicalABA]

I'm a bit confused on how one can be "location-bound" to NYC and LA, considering that they are on opposite sides of the country, even moreso when the OP currently lives in Japan. Even if the restriction was solid blue states--owing to the OP being queer--that would leave a lot more than LA and NYC.

Good point. Is it something specific about NYC/LA, or more of a general vibe you're looking for?

 

[m1ntyfresh]

My whole extended family is in NYC, I grew up in NY, and I'm tired of living far away from them (as I've been in Japan for a long time now). Mom's only getting older. I wouldn't be living anywhere close to celebs unfortunately!

Honestly I don't really want to live anywhere else, but I said LA only because I have some friends there and it has a good dance scene which is a very important part of my life. And I wanted to try to be a bit flexible . If anything what would be important to me is strong diversity (asians, blacks, hispanics), street dance culture, art scene, and good food.

The city I live in is incredibly important to me as life is more than just my career. But I guess if grad school is 60 hours a week anyway...

 

[WisNeuro]

My whole extended family is in NYC, I grew up in NY, and I'm tired of living far away from them (as I've been in Japan for a long time now). Mom's only getting older. I wouldn't be living anywhere close to celebs unfortunately!

Honestly I don't really want to live anywhere else, but I said LA only because I have some friends there and it has a good dance scene which is a very important part of my life. And I wanted to try to be a bit flexible . If anything what would be important to me is strong diversity (asians, blacks, hispanics), street dance culture, art scene, and good food.

The city I live in is incredibly important to me as life is more than just my career. But I guess if grad school is 60 hours a week anyway...

The important piece for grad school is to find a good fit with the program, not the city. Getting good training allows you to pretty much get a good job wherever you want to live after that. But, geographic inflexibility is a kiss of death for legitimate doctoral programs usually. Especially considering most people move for internship/postdoc. If that's not for you, I'd consider an alternate career. Maybe social work.

 

[Sanman]

My whole extended family is in NYC, I grew up in NY, and I'm tired of living far away from them (as I've been in Japan for a long time now). Mom's only getting older. I wouldn't be living anywhere close to celebs unfortunately!

Honestly I don't really want to live anywhere else, but I said LA only because I have some friends there and it has a good dance scene which is a very important part of my life. And I wanted to try to be a bit flexible . If anything what would be important to me is strong diversity (asians, blacks, hispanics), street dance culture, art scene, and good food.

The city I live in is incredibly important to me as life is more than just my career. But I guess if grad school is 60 hours a week anyway...

If these are your priorities, I would seriously reconsider some of your career goals. A research career is likely out and what you will end up with if you are lucky is a fairly average career as a clinician. If that is alright with you then, the choice is yours. However, you need to realize that:

When you are compromising to stay in NYC for a doctoral degree, the competition is picking the best mentors in the country and studying under them.

When you are compromising to stay in NYC for internship, the competition is picking the internships with the best training opportunities in the country.

When you are compromising to stay in NYC for post-doc, the competition is picking the best post-docs in the country (maybe even a research post-doc and a clinical post-doc)

When it comes time to hire someone for a competitive job in NYC or another major city, which of the two of you do you think they will hire? If it is neither of you, the competition will take similar job anywhere in the country and try again. What will you do?

Understand, I don't say this out of spite. I say it as a minority who once decided to prioritize getting back to NYC for internship after years in a funded doctoral program in the south. It was a career mistake (likely my biggest).

 

[Sanman]

"If I can't be within 15 miles of a movie star while I work 60 hour weeks in grad school, is that even living?"

Why on earth anyone would want to live that close to a movie star is beyond me. I just learned that a TV star has a home a few towns away from me. There goes the neighborhood...

 

[R. Matey]

While I do agree with others that restricting yourself to a few desirable metros does diminish your chances of attending a funded program, it doesn't quite zero them out completely. You have a good GPA, programming skills, and access to decent mentorship, which are all strengths. The take home message here, I think, is that you're opting for a much harder road than what is necessary.

If you're completely dead set on NYC/LA, then have early conversations with people about your intentions to apply to just a few metros and build towards developing interest in the research that people do in those labs, since your own interests are a bit squishy anyways. You may have to apply more than once after you complete your post-bacc program in order be competitive. You will also likely need pubs, preferably first authored ones, in some decent journals, in an area someone in NYC has interest. If that seems not worth it just to be called "Dr." and do therapy, then yeah, consider a master's degree. Like I said, in NYC anyways, there are a ton of institutes and hospitals that can train you to provide quality work.

If you do get into a funded Ph.D. program in NYC/LA. Feel free to come back here and rub in our faces. I'll post the Gatsby gif in your honor

 

[Sanman]

While I do agree with others that restricting yourself to a few desirable metros does diminish your chances of attending a funded program, it doesn't quite zero them out completely. You have a good GPA, programming skills, and access to decent mentorship, which are all strengths. The take home message here, I think, is that you're opting for a much harder road than what is necessary.

If you're completely dead set on NYC/LA, then have early conversations with people about your intentions to apply to just a few metros and build towards developing interest in the research that people do in those labs, since your own interests are a bit squishy anyways. You may have to apply more than once after you complete your post-bacc program in order be competitive. You will also likely need pubs, preferably first authored ones, in some decent journals, in an area someone in NYC has interest. If that seems not worth it just to be called "Dr." and do therapy, then yeah, consider a master's degree. Like I said, in NYC anyways, there are a ton of institutes and hospitals that can train you to provide quality work.

If you do get into a funded Ph.D. program in NYC/LA. Feel free to come back here and rub in our faces. I'll post the Gatsby gif in your honor

Different discussions happening here. You are talking about the OP getting into a funded program. I am talking about the OP getting a competitive job. You and I both know that getting in is simply step 1 in a long process. If you are not willing to go the extra mile once you get there, why jump through all the hoops?

Put another way, If I could seek out and hire Slash/Steve Vai/Eric Clapton, etc for $10,000/hr to give me guitar lessons but I don't really want to travel, put on concerts, move to LA or Nashville, build a reputation as a professional guitarist and prefer to just hang out at home and mess around on the guitar and be a local music teacher, why not just go the local guitar store and pay a lot less for my lessons? It is certainly a lot easier than learning from a legend and not a good use of the money/time I spent with these people.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

The important piece for grad school is to find a good fit with the program, not the city. Getting good training allows you to pretty much get a good job wherever you want to live after that. But, geographic inflexibility is a kiss of death for legitimate doctoral programs usually. Especially considering most people move for internship/postdoc. If that's not for you, I'd consider an alternate career. Maybe social work.

Just quoting this for emphasis to op, I feel like eight likes weren't enough. It's good have an understanding of what you want in life But I'm getting some sense from OP that they are rying to have everything their way. There's not anything inherently wrong with that, but it could be a flag when we're trying to think about having a growth mindset and pushing yourself into uncomfortable positions.

Not that they haven't done any already. But I feel like this is kind of a reality check: if you want to be a doctor you need to be willing to sacrifice the same amount as everyone else.

We are getting a hint of this unwillingness and if we can do that then so will all of the admissions folk

Best wishes.

 

[ClinicalABA]

... If anything what would be important to me is strong diversity (asians, blacks, hispanics), street dance culture, art scene, and good food.

Remember that college/university towns tend to have these things, now matter where they are located. In most cases, the big university town/city is the biggest enclave of diversity and liberalism (and good food) within otherwise non-diverse, conservative areas. It's not going to be NYC level of diversity, arts, and food, of course.

The city I live in is incredibly important to me as life is more than just my career. But I guess if grad school is 60 hours a week anyway...

Thing is, grad school is not your career. It is what allows you to be more flexible with you future career. I'm a unicorn in the sense that I did not have to move for grad school (an R1 public university-based fully funded clinical Ph.D.) and I now live in the same town I did when I was in grad school. I did have to move a few hours away for internship (and was prepared to move cross country if necessary to get the training I wanted), where I remained for post-doc and early career, but have since moved back to the area of my grad program. I am the only one from my cohort and one of only a few that were in the program at all with me, to live in the same area. Most have moved to where they wanted to be (or places they knew they would like), often back to their home state or cities. Being flexible with the location of their training while NOT being flexible with the quality of their training has given us the flexibility to live and work where we want to when it is most important (in my case starting and raising a family in an area with a lot to offer). I really didn't like living in the area where I was for pre- and post-doc and stayed for a few years early career, but because I did so without compromising the quality of my training and experiences, I now get to do what I like where I want to do it.