Pure Scientists look down on Premeds?

[biochemnerd123]

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Premed here, trying to do research but sometimes I get the feeling that scientists, for example evolutionary biologists or computational biologists (or environmentalists, conservationists, herp/ornith -ologists) look down on undergrads or research interns in general who decide to be premeds.

I think part of it is that they get the impression we're not actually that interested in their research, studying snakes, evolution, ecology, etc., just how it will look on our resume, and that we're putting on a big show of how we are genuinely interested and passionate in order to kiss up for our future resumes and recs.

I sometimes hear my PI say things like "oh this [HS] student won this research competition, it's too bad she became a premed," or even outright tell me to reconsider my decision to go into medicine after they hear I've been shadowing doctors.

What do you guys think? Do you guys get this impression too? What, if anything, do you do about it?

 

[efle]

Premed here, trying to do research but sometimes I get the feeling that scientists, for example evolutionary biologists or computational biologists (or environmentalists, conservationists, herp/ornith -ologists) look down on undergrads or research interns in general who decide to be premeds.

I think part of it is that they get the impression we're not actually that interested in their research, studying snakes, evolution, ecology, etc., just how it will look on our resume, and that we're putting on a big show of how we are genuinely interested and passionate in order to kiss up for our future resumes and recs.

I sometimes hear my PI say things like "oh this [HS] student won this research competition, it's too bad she became a premed," or even outright tell me to reconsider my decision to go into medicine after they hear I've been shadowing doctors.

What do you guys think? Do you guys get this impression too? What, if anything, do you do about it?

A lot of people in research hate the fact that med school pulls so many brilliant minds away from science because it has better career prospects.

That said, there is absolutely no shortage of PhDs for funded positions in any field I'm aware of. I don't think there is any good reason for someone to criticize your interest in medicine!

 

[Lost In Transcription]

Premed here, trying to do research but sometimes I get the feeling that scientists, for example evolutionary biologists or computational biologists (or environmentalists, conservationists, herp/ornith -ologists) look down on undergrads or research interns in general who decide to be premeds.

I think part of it is that they get the impression we're not actually that interested in their research, studying snakes, evolution, ecology, etc., just how it will look on our resume, and that we're putting on a big show of how we are genuinely interested and passionate in order to kiss up for our future resumes and recs.

I sometimes hear my PI say things like "oh this [HS] student won this research competition, it's too bad she became a premed," or even outright tell me to reconsider my decision to go into medicine after they hear I've been shadowing doctors.

What do you guys think? Do you guys get this impression too? What, if anything, do you do about it?

Usually they are people complaining about students who are point-grabbers and dislike the research and expect protocols and instructions to be given to them, instead of having scientific curiosity. Most premeds will fit into the med school mantra of "put the right answer down" instead of the scientific train of thought, which sometimes inherently bothers some researchers.

That said, most people only have a problem with dingus premeds.

 

[Pagan FutureDoc]

Biologists are just salty because they get looked down on my chemists and physicists (I kid)

Seriously, if you've ever met 90% of incoming freshmen premeds you'd look down on the too

 

[TheBiologist]

yes

although I would say their stereotype is generally true; most premeds I know do not appreciate science or research as a discipline and just care about getting into med school, so you can't really blame the PI's for saying that

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Biologists are just salty because they get looked down on my chemists and physicists (I kid)

Seriously, if you've ever met 90% of incoming freshmen premeds you'd look down on the too

And we mathematicians look down on all of you.

 

[aldol16]

A lot of people in research hate the fact that med school pulls so many brilliant minds away from science because it has better career prospects.

That said, there is absolutely no shortage of PhDs for funded positions in any field I'm aware of. I don't think there is any good reason for someone to criticize your interest in medicine!

Actually, we dislike pre-meds for two reasons. First, pre-meds tend to be the type who care more about their grades in the courses we teach than the science. We are dedicating our careers to science and pre-meds trample on it on the way to getting the "A" they feel they deserve. This is tantamount to pissing on someone's profession and career. Nobody likes it.

Second, pre-meds also tend to the the type who don't care about the research they are doing. They care more that they are in lab for X number of hours. They simply don't understand that research isn't measured by the number of hours you spend in lab but rather the quality of work you produce while you're in lab. As such, whenever we are forced by our PIs to work with pre-meds, we don't like it because they generally tend to not care about the experiments they're doing - the same experiments that we hope to publish and build our careers upon. Moreover, speaking from personal experience now, pre-meds also tend to, because they are disinterested in the science they are doing, not be able to think for themselves in the lab. If you're working in a chemistry lab, you've most likely already taken organic chemistry. If I ask you to do an extraction using DCM and water, you shouldn't have to ask me which phase your product is in and which phase is on the bottom or top. You should either know it or know how to figure it out using data available to you.

So that's my little soapbox.

 

[libertyyne]

At least we aren't Social "scientists."

 

[efle]

Actually, we dislike pre-meds for two reasons. First, pre-meds tend to be the type who care more about their grades in the courses we teach than the science. We are dedicating our careers to science and pre-meds trample on it on the way to getting the "A" they feel they deserve. This is tantamount to pissing on someone's profession and career. Nobody likes it.

Second, pre-meds also tend to the the type who don't care about the research they are doing. They care more that they are in lab for X number of hours. They simply don't understand that research isn't measured by the number of hours you spend in lab but rather the quality of work you produce while you're in lab. As such, whenever we are forced by our PIs to work with pre-meds, we don't like it because they generally tend to not care about the experiments they're doing - the same experiments that we hope to publish and build our careers upon. Moreover, speaking from personal experience now, pre-meds also tend to, because they are disinterested in the science they are doing, not be able to think for themselves in the lab. If you're working in a chemistry lab, you've most likely already taken organic chemistry. If I ask you to do an extraction using DCM and water, you shouldn't have to ask me which phase your product is in and which phase is on the bottom or top. You should either know it or know how to figure it out using data available to you.

So that's my little soapbox.

I def had those friends who hated every minute in lab and just wanted to maintain their cell lines for their grad student and then get the hell out after a few semesters. I read it as OP talking about the valued students who earn legit authorships, where the PI laments seeing them leave research behind to go treat skin conditions all day.

 

[Astra]

A lot of PHD's look down on premeds as they see meet all the ones who want to do medicine for the wrong reasons ( money, prestige etc). Most PHD's I worked with were very passionate about their research and didn't appreciate people who used them to check a box off to go make tons of money.

 

[gamieg]

Actually, we dislike pre-meds for two reasons. First, pre-meds tend to be the type who care more about their grades in the courses we teach than the science. We are dedicating our careers to science and pre-meds trample on it on the way to getting the "A" they feel they deserve. This is tantamount to pissing on someone's profession and career. Nobody likes it.

Second, pre-meds also tend to the the type who don't care about the research they are doing. They care more that they are in lab for X number of hours. They simply don't understand that research isn't measured by the number of hours you spend in lab but rather the quality of work you produce while you're in lab. As such, whenever we are forced by our PIs to work with pre-meds, we don't like it because they generally tend to not care about the experiments they're doing - the same experiments that we hope to publish and build our careers upon. Moreover, speaking from personal experience now, pre-meds also tend to, because they are disinterested in the science they are doing, not be able to think for themselves in the lab. If you're working in a chemistry lab, you've most likely already taken organic chemistry. If I ask you to do an extraction using DCM and water, you shouldn't have to ask me which phase your product is in and which phase is on the bottom or top. You should either know it or know how to figure it out using data available to you.

So that's my little soapbox.

pretty awesome soapbox

 

[Lost In Transcription]

In general, it just gets back to entitlement.

Most scientists have a great disdain for academic entitlement. A's are mostly for the actual exceptional students in the eyes of many serious scientists, and get irritated by every last email for extra credit, half a percent grade increase, etc. You don't DESERVE grades because you did well. Especially not in science. But most premeds, medical schools, and premed advisors do not agree.

I really cringed when I realized I was mentoring/teaching premeds, but most of them are great people. But the ones that aren't are honestly pretty stereotypical and leave a horrid taste in one's mouth.

 

[NeuResurgens]

They just dislike us because we're competitive, we tend to argue over grades more than our peers, and I think from their perspective we use their research for our own ends more than for the love of the pursuit of knowledge.

 

[aldol16]

I def had those friends who hated every minute in lab and just wanted to maintain their cell lines for their grad student and then get the hell out after a few semesters. I read it as OP talking about the valued students who earn legit authorships, where the PI laments seeing them leave research behind to go treat skin conditions all day.

Ah, I see. There certainly is a talent drain from graduate school. There's a pretty steep drop from top 10 graduate schools in a particular field to even the top 10-20. That is to say, there is a small cohort of graduate students who could have gone to medical school but chose graduate school because they love the pursuit of science. But that cohort is small. After them comes a larger cohort who could do either grad or med school but choose the latter for whatever personal reason. Then after them comes the cohort that couldn't make it into med school but still had good grades and a science background. This is the cohort that makes up most graduate school classes.

But then again, in science, the world is pretty small at the top. In any field, the universally accepted "experts" in the field could probably fit comfortably inside my office. These people generate the high-impact papers and publish every few months in Science or Nature. Then the other scientists research/teach at less prestigious universities and generate less impactful research (although important nonetheless). So in terms of jobs, those top few who go to top graduate programs are looking to replace the same people who are mentoring them whereas those who go to not-top grad programs end up in industry, a different field, or teaching/conducting research at a lower-ranked university.

So while there is a talent drain into medicine from science, the demographics of the scientific community aren't really changing. It's how it's always been (in modern memory). If the talent drain stopped, there would actually be a huge influx of talent into academia, which academia could not handle - especially since it can't even handle the current situation.

 

[Lost In Transcription]

See: https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/where-to-go-from-here-with-bio-prof.1233420/

 

[Lost In Transcription]

Ah, I see. There certainly is a talent drain from graduate school. There's a pretty steep drop from top 10 graduate schools in a particular field to even the top 10-20. That is to say, there is a small cohort of graduate students who could have gone to medical school but chose graduate school because they love the pursuit of science. But that cohort is small. After them comes a larger cohort who could do either grad or med school but choose the latter for whatever personal reason. Then after them comes the cohort that couldn't make it into med school but still had good grades and a science background. This is the cohort that makes up most graduate school classes.

But then again, in science, the world is pretty small at the top. In any field, the universally accepted "experts" in the field could probably fit comfortably inside my office. These people generate the high-impact papers and publish every few months in Science or Nature. Then the other scientists research/teach at less prestigious universities and generate less impactful research (although important nonetheless). So in terms of jobs, those top few who go to top graduate programs are looking to replace the same people who are mentoring them whereas those who go to not-top grad programs end up in industry, a different field, or teaching/conducting research at a lower-ranked university.

So while there is a talent drain into medicine from science, the demographics of the scientific community aren't really changing. It's how it's always been (in modern memory). If the talent drain stopped, there would actually be a huge influx of talent into academia, which academia could not handle - especially since it can't even handle the current situation.

I agree with this.

The pull for me to do medicine instead of science was very strong, since I could have done both. I love science so much and know I want to do research, so I think I have decided to not go med, but is a very hard decision (have to reconcile the emotional reasons why I wanted to be a doctor, for instance).

And I know very little people who made this choice. Most of the people like me got pressured into MD/PhD or MD.

 

[JustAPhD]

They just dislike us because we're competitive, we tend to argue over grades more than our peers, and I think from their perspective we use their research for our own ends more than for the love of the pursuit of knowledge.

Not quite. I love competitive people; I *mostly* don't like having premeds in the lab because for the *most* part they're not great researchers. Of course this is painting with an extremely broad brush, and some of my brightest students have been premeds, but the majority? Not so much...but that's why I require a brief in-person interview before joining the lab. If I like you after that interview I couldn't care less if you're a premed.

 

[Lost In Transcription]

They just dislike us because we're overly-competitive and sacrifice collaboration in order to seem more important, we tend to argue over grades more than is humanly necessary over things we probably don't deserve points for, and I think from their perspective we use their precious, ever-dwindling lab money for our own ends more than getting work done towards the lab's goals, much less for the love of science.

I wasn't going to be an ass...but FTFY

 

[aldol16]

Not quite. I love competitive people; I *mostly* don't like having premeds in the lab because for the *most* part they're not great researchers. Of course this is painting with an extremely broad brush, and some of my brightest students have been premeds, but the majority? Not so much...but that's why I require a brief in-person interview before joining the lab.

I think because of the large population of pre-meds at most universities, you'll find that you will get a pretty representative sample of people in general with respect to aptitude for research. There will be people who are naturals at it and people who really shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a dangerous chemical. The population of pre-meds are the same way.

 

[Goro]

One thing not mentioned in the above posts is that for PIs, it's not worth the effort. I've mentored several pre-meds when I was a post-doc, and they pretty much spent an entire summer learning how to use a pipettor. They were very nice and my PI and I were happy to write them good LORs for their med school apps (all got into IU). But they still accomplished nothing.

I have no problem with pre-meds wanting to go to med school. Med school would kill me. Nor does it bother me that they don't want be to lab scientists.

Premed here, trying to do research but sometimes I get the feeling that scientists, for example evolutionary biologists or computational biologists (or environmentalists, conservationists, herp/ornith -ologists) look down on undergrads or research interns in general who decide to be premeds.

I think part of it is that they get the impression we're not actually that interested in their research, studying snakes, evolution, ecology, etc., just how it will look on our resume, and that we're putting on a big show of how we are genuinely interested and passionate in order to kiss up for our future resumes and recs.

I sometimes hear my PI say things like "oh this [HS] student won this research competition, it's too bad she became a premed," or even outright tell me to reconsider my decision to go into medicine after they hear I've been shadowing doctors.

What do you guys think? Do you guys get this impression too? What, if anything, do you do about it?

 

[Lost In Transcription]

One thing not mentioned in the above posts is that for PIs, it's not worth the effort. I've mentored several pre-meds when I was a post-doc, and they pretty much spent an entire summer learning how to use a pipettor. They were very nice and my PI and I were happy to write them good LORs for their med school apps (all got into IU). But they still accomplished nothing.

I have no problem with pre-meds wanting to go to med school. Med school would kill me. Nor does it bother me that they don't want be to lab scientists.

This, and something I just snarkily mentioned above: money.

It costs money for UGs to come in and screw up experiments, use media, etc- especially in mammalian systems (closer to medical research). They often demand to be paid, too.

And if they are not interested and just want a list of chores, that becomes useless to most PIs.

 

[Goro]

You nailed it!

Our lab didn't have money for student salaries, so we couldn't have paid anyone asking for such.

This, and something I just snarkily mentioned above: money.

It costs money for UGs to come in and screw up experiments, use media, etc- especially in mammalian systems (closer to medical research). They often demand to be paid, too.

And if they are not interested and just want a list of chores, that becomes useless to most PIs.

 

[treesnm3s]

Does anyone else think that the admissions process created this problem?

Most top 20 schools look for premed UG research, so interested or not, us premeds seek out research because it's another box to check. As competitive as it is, you can't blame people for trying to gain an advantage.

 

[Lost In Transcription]

Does anyone else think that the admissions process created this problem?

Most top 20 schools look for premed UG research, so interested or not, us premeds seek out research because it's another box to check. As competitive as it is, you can't blame people for trying to gain an advantage.

Yes, I can blame students.

And I do.

I meet many premeds who put effort into engaging in the processes, even if they DO do it to check boxes.

Admissions has ruined a lot, yes. But the students perpetuate it.

 

[JustAPhD]

Does anyone else think that the admissions process created this problem?

Most top 20 schools look for premed UG research, so interested or not, us premeds seek out research because it's another box to check. As competitive as it is, you can't blame people for trying to gain an advantage.

Eh. Perhaps they created it but I think premeds should be familiar with research. You're going to be applied scientists, learning the scientific method first hand is a good thing.

 

[Lost In Transcription]

Eh. Perhaps they created it but I think premeds should be familiar with research. You're going to be applied scientists, learning the scientific method first hand is a good thing.

Hard when the system only asks you to say/put the right answer down. Not that that is easy by any stretch, but it is very fundamentally different than the scientific process...

 

[sliceofbread136]

Actually, we dislike pre-meds for two reasons. First, pre-meds tend to be the type who care more about their grades in the courses we teach than the science. We are dedicating our careers to science and pre-meds trample on it on the way to getting the "A" they feel they deserve. This is tantamount to pissing on someone's profession and career. Nobody likes it.

Second, pre-meds also tend to the the type who don't care about the research they are doing. They care more that they are in lab for X number of hours. They simply don't understand that research isn't measured by the number of hours you spend in lab but rather the quality of work you produce while you're in lab. As such, whenever we are forced by our PIs to work with pre-meds, we don't like it because they generally tend to not care about the experiments they're doing - the same experiments that we hope to publish and build our careers upon. Moreover, speaking from personal experience now, pre-meds also tend to, because they are disinterested in the science they are doing, not be able to think for themselves in the lab. If you're working in a chemistry lab, you've most likely already taken organic chemistry. If I ask you to do an extraction using DCM and water, you shouldn't have to ask me which phase your product is in and which phase is on the bottom or top. You should either know it or know how to figure it out using data available to you.

So that's my little soapbox.

Honestly all of these issues strike me as a "don't hate the player hate the game" sort of deal

 

[Lost In Transcription]

Honestly all of these issues strike me as a "don't hate the player hate the game" sort of deal

There are other ways to win the game.

 

[treesnm3s]

Yes, I can blame students.

And I do.

I meet many premeds who put effort into engaging in the processes, even if they DO do it to check boxes.

Admissions has ruined a lot, yes. But the students perpetuate it.

So you've never dealt with grad students that don't put in a lot of effort?

 

[Lost In Transcription]

So you've never dealt with grad students that don't put in a lot of effort?

I have. They go to small state schools, or take too many years to graduate, and never advance in their career.

Most grad students work 24/7, sacrifice almost everything, get paid less or equal to 30k, and still at the end of most days grin and would gush to tell you about what they are doing and how much their love their research.

 

[Goro]

If they don't, they get their asses kicked out of the lab (which actually takes work). But students like this will more commonly take an MS instead of the PhD, and leave early. This happened to two people in my PhD lab.

Most grad students understand that Science is not a banker's hours job.

So you've never dealt with grad students that don't put in a lot of effort?

 

[mistafab]

If you are truly interested in research, scientists will like you because you do care about what they do. If you are in there for a check box, then yeah - just like most of your peers the scientists will hold a little bitterness against you. It is impossible to fake a passion for science (no matter how much you kid yourself). If you are there for a checkbox, that is fine. Don't expect scientists to love you for it. They will accept your position, see it as altruism since they gain little from your involvement, and help you on your path to medicine.

Who do you think these scientists are? They are people like you and me. Sure, it feels nice to help the new kid learn a few things, but it doesn't feel great unless the new kid cares about what you are showing them.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Eh. Perhaps they created it but I think premeds should be familiar with research. You're going to be applied scientists, learning the scientific method first hand is a good thing.

I dunno, very few mds actually end incorporating bench research into their careers. Talking with my colleagues, it actually seems like the majority of them really really hate bench research. I just don't think it's something a lot of people drawn to medicine actually enjoy, yet it ends up being a requirement. I think clinical research would be a better experience for a premed to have, but that seems to be harder to get into as a premed

 

[Lost In Transcription]

I dunno, very few mds actually end incorporating bench research into their careers. Talking with my colleagues, it actually seems like the majority of them really really hate bench research. I just don't think it's something a lot of people drawn to medicine actually enjoy, yet it ends up being a requirement. I think clinical research would be a better experience for a premed to have, but that seems to be harder to get into as a premed

It's only practically required for top level schools/academic medicine.

 

[sliceofbread136]

There are other ways to win the game.

Sure. Ideally you should be putting your whole self into everything you do and taking pride in your work, and I think a lot of premeds strive to do that. However I do think our premed system has a bit too many check boxes a lot of which don't actually have a whole lot to do with what an MD ends up doing. Bench research seems like one of these things now a days. some people just aren't naturally drawn to it, yet have to do it anyway. I don't really think they are worthy of blame for not enjoying it.

 

[sliceofbread136]

It's only practically required for top level schools/academic medicine.

I'm fairly far away from the process admittedly, but from what I remember it was a good activity to have done anywhere

 

[aldol16]

Honestly all of these issues strike me as a "don't hate the player hate the game" sort of deal

It's not the game itself. It's how the players are playing the game. As with any game, you can play a good, clean game. Or you can play SEC style.

 

[efle]

especially since it can't even handle the current situation.

I always wondered how the system survived when everyone seems to be training more than one person at the next level below. It seems like a giant pyramid scheme where in the end half of PhDs don't end up needing the full degree of training

 

[aldol16]

So you've never dealt with grad students that don't put in a lot of effort?

I have. They go to small state schools, or take too many years to graduate, and never advance in their career.

Most grad students work 24/7, sacrifice almost everything, get paid less or equal to 30k, and still at the end of most days grin and would gush to tell you about what they are doing and how much their love their research.

There definitely are graduate studnets who don't put in a lot of effort. But those graduate students simply either graduate in >5-6 years and/or have no publications. In academia, you can say goodbye to getting a post-doctoral fellowship if you don't have any publications to show for 5-6 years of graduate school. Getting a job in industry will be similarly hard unless you have some connections you've made along the way.

I mean, many grad students are disillusioned and bitter about the long hours (there's no such thing as a weekend in grad school) and low pay. Hence the unionizing of graduate students at private universities going on now. However, you'll find that most of us love doing research. It's interesting how we can sometimes dissociate the fun from doing research from real concerns like future job prospects, low pay, etc.

 

[aldol16]

I always wondered how the system survived when everyone seems to be training more than one person at the next level below. It seems like a giant pyramid scheme where in the end half of PhDs don't end up needing the full degree of training

It is a pyramid scheme. That's my point. How many students does each PI train? How many of those students will go into industry? Maybe a few. 30% maybe? How many will be vying for that PI's job? Many. This kind of scheme only works when you have an expanding labor market. Academia was expanding for a long time. Money was easy and the grants were flowing. Then the economy takes a downward turn and money dries up. Universities stop hiring and start downsizing - hiring lecturers instead of tenure-track professors. With the same kind of pyramid scheme in a diminishing labor market, it's getting harder and harder for PhDs to find jobs.

 

[efle]

It is a pyramid scheme. That's my point. How many students does each PI train? How many of those students will go into industry? Maybe a few. 30% maybe? How many will be vying for that PI's job? Many. This kind of scheme only works when you have an expanding labor market. Academia was expanding for a long time. Money was easy and the grants were flowing. Then the economy takes a downward turn and money dries up. Universities stop hiring and start downsizing - hiring lecturers instead of tenure-track professors. With the same kind of pyramid scheme in a diminishing labor market, it's getting harder and harder for PhDs to find jobs.

Sounds like getting your PhD is gonna become as unreliable as attending the nearest random law school. Is it only a recent phenomenon that some of the most capable seem to jump ship into the private sector instead of seeking tenure track faculty positions? Or has the pay always been so much better? How long has "publish or perish" been the way it works in academia?

 

[SwordOfTheMorning]

Premed here, trying to do research but sometimes I get the feeling that scientists, for example evolutionary biologists or computational biologists (or environmentalists, conservationists, herp/ornith -ologists) look down on undergrads or research interns in general who decide to be premeds.

I think part of it is that they get the impression we're not actually that interested in their research, studying snakes, evolution, ecology, etc., just how it will look on our resume, and that we're putting on a big show of how we are genuinely interested and passionate in order to kiss up for our future resumes and recs.

I sometimes hear my PI say things like "oh this [HS] student won this research competition, it's too bad she became a premed," or even outright tell me to reconsider my decision to go into medicine after they hear I've been shadowing doctors.

What do you guys think? Do you guys get this impression too? What, if anything, do you do about it?

My physiology professor hated pre-meds. Probably for many of the reasons you and others have suggested. When my friend and I were speaking with another professor she even emphasized how important it was to not say that any of us were pre-meds if we wanted to go and ask to join his lab. She told us to tell him we planned on going to graduate school. So yeah, the hate is real. Although I can't really blame him or others who do.

 

[NeuResurgens]

I wasn't going to be an ass...but FTFY

Seems about right

 

[WhittyPsyche]

It doesn't end with premeds... most cell biologists and neurobiologist, etc etc. Hate doctors and think they don't know anything about physiology and the medications they prescribe. I've heard more than a handful of rants about their doctor visits and why physicians are idiots.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[libertyyne]

I mean, to be fair, most self described pre-meds I have meet are just awful people, so I dont blame scientists for looking down on them.

Most pre-meds and physicians probably have the following reaction of being looked down upon

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

At least we aren't Social "scientists."

TRIGGERED

 

[libertyyne]

TRIGGERED

How do you feel about this

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

How do you feel about this
View attachment 212071

Nah bro Im going to the Harvard of the carribean 🙂

 

[libertyyne]

Nah bro Im going to the Harvard of the carribean 🙂

I meant the photo. I am confident you will get into Princeton MD without a struggle.

 

[aldol16]

Sounds like getting your PhD is gonna become as unreliable as attending the nearest random law school. Is it only a recent phenomenon that some of the most capable seem to jump ship into the private sector instead of seeking tenure track faculty positions? Or has the pay always been so much better? How long has "publish or perish" been the way it works in academia?

It is. Why do you think I'm changing careers? The phenomenon of having graduates go into industry or switch fields entirely (consulting or Wall Street, for instance) has been around for some time. I think more so in the past 10-20 years than before that but it's been around. But a relatively new phenomenon that current and future PhDs will have to deal with is this (at least in chemistry, which is the field I know best). Pharma companies have figured out that they can pay PIs in academia to "consult" on their R&D teams. What this translates to is that the work that a PhD chemist would be doing with the company is now shifted to PIs, who are paid less than staff chemists (but still substantial sums of money) to "consult," or have the people working for that PI do the job for the company. Why pay a PhD a hefty salary with full benefits when you can pay someone else much less to do it? So the staff chemist jobs are drying up and industry positions are now even becoming harder to find. There definitely are substantial cuts to the number of PI positions open in industry.

At the same time, large universities are trying to rein in costs and hiring more lecture staff than tenure-track faculty. So those positions are also drying up. So here you have the same level of or even higher levels of PhDs graduating and competing in a smaller labor market. Basic economics can tell us how that's going to go.

"Publish or perish" has always been the de facto regime in academia. PIs are expected to contribute to their own salary through grants and the only way to get grants is to have a lot of peer-reviewed publications so people believe that you're legit and are more comfortable giving their money to you. So to even become a PI, you have to publish a lot. And that effect has trickled down to post-doc positions as well, since there are many PhDs graduating and few post-doctoral fellowships open. So you distinguish applicants by publication number and quality. If you don't publish at either the post-doc or PI level, you either never get a tenure-track faculty position or the research funding/grants dry up and you can't do research. There's no way to get out of this cycle unless research funding can be dissociated from publications and another metric used to evaluate who gets the money. Sometimes, the number of publications doesn't matter as much as the quality of the proposal. A starting PI might have a very good strategy for attacking the big problems in science but that requires time and money. Time is in short supply because if he doesn't get publishing, he's not going to get any money. But to get money, he has to attack smaller questions that take less time to answer. So this whole cycle perpetuates.