Pursuing a second PhD

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I have a PhD in cognitive neuroscience and background in experimental psychology, and for years I have struggled to find my niche in research. I have worked mostly in basic research in academia, but at this point I am pretty convinced that being a PI is just not for me. I have also struggled to find non-PI PhD-level research jobs in government or industry. As a result, while I have trained and worked in research for over 15 years, I have come to the conclusion that a career in research may not be viable for me.

Not wanting my training to go to "waste," I have considered whether I might be able to apply it in a neuroscience-related clinical field, such as clinical neuropsychology. I have trained under neuropsychologists, have extensive coursework in psychology, and have experience in administering standardized clinical assessments. I also really enjoy patient interaction and have found this to be really the highlight of doing research for me. I wonder whether this field might be a good fit, but nearing 40, I also have concerns about the logistics of pursuing a new career.

My question is whether having a PhD and some potentially relevant experience through research would help at all in pursuing a second PhD in clinical psychology (e.g., reducing time to complete the degree or helping to get accepted into clinical psych PhD programs). Any thoughts on this would be great.

Thanks!

Peter

 

[deleted343839]

A clinical respecialization program might be a better solution. It's not quite clear what it is about research and academia that haven't been working well for you, though. In what ways would you expect/hope that clinical training would resolve your problem?

 

[erg923]

**** that noise! Respecialization!

 

[skiler_78]

As far as research in academia, I just feel that I don't have the interest and thick skin that I feel I would need to be successful. I'm certainly open to research in lower-level roles (e.g., staff scientist) but have found very few such positions that fit with my research background. I have considered lots of alternatives to academic research (teaching, science writing, medical writing, medical science liason, etc. etc.) and am by no means 100% sold on the idea of changing to a clinical field, though I think it might allow me to use some of my training and would allow me to work with patients which I find rewarding. Also, after having worked in a few short term (1-3 year) research jobs, I'm really wanting to find something more stable that would allow me to not have to change jobs every few years. In that sense, I think a clinical field like clinical neuropsychology may provide better job security and may have better job prospects in the years to come.

I've heard of respecialization programs and was under the impression that they were geared toward people who have a PhD in psychology, which I do not. Is that not the case? Also, I'm curious how respecialization is viewed in the field. Are those who go through such programs likely to be at a disadvantage in getting hired compared to those who do the full clinical psych PhD and fellowship training?

 

[empathiosis]

As far as research in academia, I just feel that I don't have the interest and thick skin that I feel I would need to be successful. I'm certainly open to research in lower-level roles (e.g., staff scientist) but have found very few such positions that fit with my research background. I have considered lots of alternatives to academic research (teaching, science writing, medical writing, medical science liason, etc. etc.) and am by no means 100% sold on the idea of changing to a clinical field, though I think it might allow me to use some of my training and would allow me to work with patients which I find rewarding. Also, after having worked in a few short term (1-3 year) research jobs, I'm really wanting to find something more stable that would allow me to not have to change jobs every few years. In that sense, I think a clinical field like clinical neuropsychology may provide better job security and may have better job prospects in the years to come.

I've heard of respecialization programs and was under the impression that they were geared toward people who have a PhD in psychology, which I do not. Is that not the case? Also, I'm curious how respecialization is viewed in the field. Are those who go through such programs likely to be at a disadvantage in getting hired compared to those who do the full clinical psych PhD and fellowship training?

You're correct that respecialization programs are intended for folks with PhDs in psychology. Here's a list of accredited programs:

http://www.apa.org/ed/graduate/respecialization.aspx

You may want to contact some that appeal to you to get more information. I would not think that there would be any disadvantage to respecialization. You're getting the same experience that students in a "full program" get, applying for the same internships and getting the same license.

 

[deleted343839]

Yes, it's a good question as to whether a clinical respecialization program would be the right move since your PhD is not in psychology (sorry, that escaped my attention). It's less an issue of your academic background than of the licensure requirements you'll have to meet further down the road. It can't hurt to reach out to those programs and find out more.

A big disadvantage of respecialization is that it costs a lot of money. To my knowledge few of these programs, if any, offer funding. Also, clinical neuropsychology is a competitive area, so you'd need to choose a program that can provide you with solid training and prepare you well for good internships. This might narrow the field down to just a few programs.

As for the alternative, doing a new PhD from the ground up sounds like torture to me. It's not out of the question. Similar things have been done. But you'd have to really, really want it.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'd check to see if you'd be eligible at any of the respecialization programs first, although as MamaPhD mentioned, they unfortunately may not be cheap. But if you want to go the neuropsych route, you'll need to complete a two-year fellowship afterward, so any time you can save on the degree side would be helpful (especially given the potential overlap between neuropsych and cognitive neurosci).

 

[Ollie123]

I'd at least confirm that respec programs are not an option before ruling them out completely. I find it hard to believe a cognitive neuroscience curriculum would be all that different from an "Experimental psychology with a concentration in cognitive neuroscience" curriculum and there may be some loopholes that allow you to pursue it.

That said, I do think its worth fully exploring options before tacking on another ~4-5 years of training and 100k+ in debt. Especially since I (understandably) didn't hear a passion for neuropsych beyond tech-type work. Would you prefer a research scientist position? What sort of settings have you looked into and how important is it to you that it be "focused" on your area of research? What are your expectations regarding salary? Have you considered teaching positions?

You may--and likely have--thought through all of the above, I just want to make certain we aren't missing some easier paths to suggest. Folks I know who have successfully transitioned to industry had a tough time getting that initial position, but were very successful thereafter. A big part of it is how you are "selling" yourself, so if your CV is "Peter the Cognitive Neuroscience" expert it may be making things more difficult than "Peter with experience managing a large team of 10+ individuals from diverse backgrounds [RA/grad student/post-doc supervision], securing and managing internal and external funding [applying for grants], and working with multiple stakeholders to ensure successful project completion [dealing with whining from IRBs, PIs, university administration, etc.]". A lot of my work could be described as cognitive neuroscience (though I am a clinician) and I know several people in the field who transitioned to government/industry without much difficulty, so there might be something simple you can change to help make that happen. If you have not yet obtained formal assistance with rewriting your CV in that regard - I'd give that a try first. Not sure I can post a link here, but PM me if you want a recommendation for a website.

 

[biscuitsbiscuits]

I see that you are interested in a more clinical position, but if you are curious about medical writing, I'd be happy to discuss via PM. I've worked as a medical writer in both a regulatory and publications capacity at a small biotech. I've never worked as an MSL, but I know some and would be happy to put in touch with one if you're interested.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

You may--and likely have--thought through all of the above, I just want to make certain we aren't missing some easier paths to suggest. Folks I know who have successfully transitioned to industry had a tough time getting that initial position, but were very successful thereafter. A big part of it is how you are "selling" yourself, so if your CV is "Peter the Cognitive Neuroscience" expert it may be making things more difficult than "Peter with experience managing a large team of 10+ individuals from diverse backgrounds [RA/grad student/post-doc supervision], securing and managing internal and external funding [applying for grants], and working with multiple stakeholders to ensure successful project completion [dealing with whining from IRBs, PIs, university administration, etc.]".

This is an excellent alternative and could be a very lucrative path if it fits your interests.

 

[deleted343839]

I know a couple of cognitive neuro/cognitive psych folks who have done well in industry, but as Ollie mentioned the way you sell yourself and break into those jobs is totally different from academia. It might be helpful to link up with the "alt-ac" community online. Here are some relevant links: https://chroniclevitae.com/news/366-what-s-your-favorite-alt-ac-resource

 

[TheEnemyWithin]

**** that noise! Respecialization!

Hey, E! Is the thought of going through the process again just too much? I believe I am going to go for the 2nd degree, second R&D process - I’m about to start my first. My only hang-up is receiving revisions back in a timely manner. Regardless of how many books faculty are writing, conferences they are attending and research projects they are currently involved with, they agreed to be on my committee - if I do the work, I expect them to do their own. What is your take on this? Have you worked in academia yet? I hate tiptoeing around people that have entered into an agreement. They are not gods, but merely men, sir.

 

[sfgucadoc]

I have a PhD in cognitive neuroscience and background in experimental psychology, and for years I have struggled to find my niche in research. I have worked mostly in basic research in academia, but at this point I am pretty convinced that being a PI is just not for me. I have also struggled to find non-PI PhD-level research jobs in government or industry. As a result, while I have trained and worked in research for over 15 years, I have come to the conclusion that a career in research may not be viable for me.

Not wanting my training to go to "waste," I have considered whether I might be able to apply it in a neuroscience-related clinical field, such as clinical neuropsychology. I have trained under neuropsychologists, have extensive coursework in psychology, and have experience in administering standardized clinical assessments. I also really enjoy patient interaction and have found this to be really the highlight of doing research for me. I wonder whether this field might be a good fit, but nearing 40, I also have concerns about the logistics of pursuing a new career.

My question is whether having a PhD and some potentially relevant experience through research would help at all in pursuing a second PhD in clinical psychology (e.g., reducing time to complete the degree or helping to get accepted into clinical psych PhD programs). Any thoughts on this would be great.

Thanks!

Peter

I agree with other folks that respecialization is the best route. I did a PhD in educational psychology at a Brand-Name School, did research for 5 years and then went back to respecialize in clinical psychology at CSPP-SF. I was generally happy with the program but even at that point it cost $60K. Now, I'm sure it would be more. Fortunately, I've continued my research career while beginning a part-time clinical practice so I was fortunate to get NIH loan repayment to pay for my CSPP loans. I didn't have any from the PhD because I was on RA $.

I thought about just doing a PsyD instead of respecialization. The only difference was that I would have had to do qualifying exams again and write another dissertation. For the sake of time and $, I decided that wasn't worth it. But if you can't get into respecialization programs because your PhD wasn't technically in psychology, a PsyD might be an option. Either way, they will likely take your transcripts and their PsyD curriculum and you'll take the courses for the PsyD you didn't have. And either do quals and a dissertation (for the PsyD) or not (for a respecialization diploma). At the time, CSPP's respecialization program required 60 semester hours - about 1/3 of those were practicum and internship, the rest were didactic coursework.

Let me know if you have questions about respecialization. It's been 14 years since I finished that but most people won't own up to having done respecialization in polite company, so not sure how many of us "retreads" are active on this site. 🙂

Cheers

 

[WisNeuro]

OP has not been active for about 2 and a half years.

 

[psych.meout]

OP has not been active for about 2 and a half years.

And they only made two posts ever, which were both in this thread.

 

[TheEnemyWithin]

I agree with other folks that respecialization is the best route. I did a PhD in educational psychology at a Brand-Name School, did research for 5 years and then went back to respecialize in clinical psychology at CSPP-SF. I was generally happy with the program but even at that point it cost $60K. Now, I'm sure it would be more. Fortunately, I've continued my research career while beginning a part-time clinical practice so I was fortunate to get NIH loan repayment to pay for my CSPP loans. I didn't have any from the PhD because I was on RA $.

I thought about just doing a PsyD instead of respecialization. The only difference was that I would have had to do qualifying exams again and write another dissertation. For the sake of time and $, I decided that wasn't worth it. But if you can't get into respecialization programs because your PhD wasn't technically in psychology, a PsyD might be an option. Either way, they will likely take your transcripts and their PsyD curriculum and you'll take the courses for the PsyD you didn't have. And either do quals and a dissertation (for the PsyD) or not (for a respecialization diploma). At the time, CSPP's respecialization program required 60 semester hours - about 1/3 of those were practicum and internship, the rest were didactic coursework.

Let me know if you have questions about respecialization. It's been 14 years since I finished that but most people won't own up to having done respecialization in polite company, so not sure how many of us "retreads" are active on this site. 🙂

Cheers

Hey, SFG, well I'm in dissertation now (the research before the actual writing). After I finish I decided to pursue a PsyD, being that I began a PhD clinical but decided to switch to forensic when I figured that the program was not APA accredited. However, I have been granted preliminary acceptance to 2 top-25 PsyD programs, good schools, both APA-accreditation and 100% APA internships. They can both hold my status for two years, which is plenty of time to finish the writing, revisions and submit for form & style. I plan to publish just the research while writing or immediately following completion - that's a pretty penny for the space - $5000-$10000 for an article in the top publications....eeeeeshhh!!! ....and no recompense for the scholarly contribution... Fortunately, 30 credits can transfer with either so both respecialization and another doctorate are approximately the same time and cost. As for going through the R&D process a second time, I'll probably perform a follow-on study to the work I am doing at present, explore the clinical implications. While I am not looking forward to another 4 years of didactic work and dissertation, I need the APA accreditation for board certification; and if it costs the same in time and monetary resources, might as well add a few more letters after my name and title, I suppose. Cheers, brother.

 

[WisNeuro]

I plan to publish just the research while writing or immediately following completion - that's a pretty penny for the space - $5000-$10000 for an article in the top publications....eeeeeshhh!!! ....and no recompense for the scholarly contribution...

I am not aware of any top publications that charge for publication.

 

[PsyDr]

I am not aware of any top publications that charge for publication.

There is typically a charge per film on some radiology journals. But those are nowhere near what this guy is talking about.

 

[WisNeuro]

There is typically a charge per film on some radiology journals. But those are nowhere near what this guy is talking about.

Yeah, we ran into that when we were considering some journals for a case report we published. But, generally speaking, only predatory journals charge for general article submissions. It's just a way that people from diploma mills can "beef" up their CVs artificially. Plenty of journalists have shown how easy it is to publish in these "journals" with sham articles written by fake people. Generally zero vetting. I mean, Plos is only marginally not a predatory journal and they charge about 3k/article last I checked.

 

[Ollie123]

I also have no earthly idea what that is referencing. I've never seen a publication fee even approaching that at ANY journal. Sometimes color page charges or optional open access, but these are actually typically lower at top journals than mid-tier.

PLOS One is ~$1600 (just checked out of curiosity). With options for waivers. Know a handful of legit journals in my field with fairly nominal publication fees ($500-1000) but have never published in any of them. They also offer waivers.

EnemyWithin - not sure where on earth you are planning to publish, but I'd think twice. If it really is a "top journal" like you say I'd be really curious to hear which one you are referencing.

 

[MAClinician]

Isn’t EnemyWithin the poster who plans to complete an online forensic psychology PhD then apply for clinical psych PhD to practice as a clinician? Maybe EW is referencing forensic journals (which is still crazy to pay to publish!)