Putting the Undergrad debate to rest!

[Dr. Lawyer]

I know that the specter of a GPA bump-up or bump-down depending on one's undergrad institution has been around for quite some time. I don't know that there is any across the boards statement that can be made on this subject. In the end, this is a totally subjective process. Each medical school has its own way of evaluating an applicant's undergrad school. At some medical schools, a 4.0 from Podunk U. might look more impressive than a 3.0 from a prestigious school. Other medical schools may never even invite applicants from state schools for interviews under the belief that education there is sub-standard.

Also, I believe that someone mentioned something in a previous post to suggest that prestigious schools were on one end of the spectrum and small private colleges were on the other. However, some of the nations best undergrad institutions are small private colleges: Williams, Amherst, Middlebury, to name a few.

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[Neuronix]

I went to my state school and I've been interviewing at a bunch of big name schools. I know some other guys at state schools or small, not highly respected, private colleges who have been interviewing at lots of big name places too. I totally don't buy that going to podunk U is going to disqualify you from getting interviews (isn't that what the MCAT is for?). Now going to your local community college... That might hurt.

You're right though about the GPA bump up/bump down--totally subjective. Luckily, I have the advantage that almost nobody applies to medical school from my undergrad, so nobody knows how grade inflated it really is

 

[Flack Pinku]

When Med schools reject to give a fair look at any student from a no-name school, then they're really missing out on possible good students for their class!

First of all, there are many reasons why people choose to go to one place over another after High School... money, family, opportunities, likings, relationships, whatever.

You can't hold someone responsible for not going to the top 50 schools--many reasons exist.

However, I support doing statistical adjustments for schools that are known to be "grade-inflated."

I don't support adjustments for "tough" schools, because schools that are well-known tend to be labeled "tough," and those not well-known tend to be labled "easy," which of course is not true at all.

 

[DarkChild]

just want to fan the flames some.
Arizona State's average SAT: 1097
Princeton's 25%/75% split: 1380-1560
1) you've got to make a pretty strong case to not convince me that the students at one school are smarter than the students of another.
2) the top schools have professors who are doing cutting edge research in their chosen fields. students at top schools have the opportunity to learn from the best. i know sophomores who took classes taught by nobel prize winners.
3) the delta between top tier schools and others is translated in MCAT scores. MIT students for instance score on average a 31.

While I completely understand that some exceptional students at low-tiered schools go on to top-tier medical institutions, I would argue those are the minority. Conversely, most students at top tier undergrad institutions place into top tier med schools.
My point is that while maybe 5% of low-ranked undergrads go on to top-10 med schools, something like 50% of undergrads at higher ranked schools go on to top-10 med schools.
(I'm making up the stats, but you get the idea)

Thats why I take GPA numbers with a grain of salt.

 

[Cerberus]

Originally posted by DarkChild
just want to fan the flames some.
Arizona State's average SAT: 1097
Princeton's 25%/75% split: 1380-1560
1) you've got to make a pretty strong case to not convince me that the students at one school are smarter than the students of another.
2) the top schools have professors who are doing cutting edge research in their chosen fields. students at top schools have the opportunity to learn from the best. i know sophomores who took classes taught by nobel prize winners.

Personally I think this is complete BS. Great, a nobel prize winner teaches you physics wooopieeee does that mean you are gonna come out of physics knowing more about physics than joe state school? I doubt seriously doubt it. It does not follow that because someone is a great scientist they will be a great educator. Not to mention the curriculum for the premed classes is pretty much the same anywhere you go. Also I'd like to know what percentage of these super smart ivy kids went to private prep schools while the rest of us dummies were stuck in public schools. Does that make them smarter? No, maybe a little more prepared but i guarantee i know some dumb state school kids that could pwn your ivies in any scientific subject.

the delta between top tier schools and others is translated in MCAT scores. MIT students for instance score on average a 31.

While I completely understand that some exceptional students at low-tiered schools go on to top-tier medical institutions, I would argue those are the minority. Conversely, most students at top tier undergrad institutions place into top tier med schools.
My point is that while maybe 5% of low-ranked undergrads go on to top-10 med schools, something like 50% of undergrads at higher ranked schools go on to top-10 med schools.
(I'm making up the stats, but you get the idea)

Thats why I take GPA numbers with a grain of salt.

Yup ivies are more likely to get into any ivy medschool but is that because they are smarter or more prepared? Or is it because they are part of the good ole boy system that accepts those from ivy league schools simply because they are from ivy league schools?

Honestly I would rather go to a lowly state school than a school full of elitist, pretentious, pricks anyday

 

[Random Access]

Originally posted by Cerberus
Yup ivies are more likely to get into any ivy medschool but is that because they are smarter or more prepared? Or is it because they are part of the good ole boy system that accepts those from ivy league schools simply because they are from ivy league schools?

Honestly I would rather go to a lowly state school than a school full of elitist, pretentious, pricks anyday

Wow. Your attitudes are almost as obnoxious as the small minority of people at Ivies who are "elitist, pretentious pricks." My guess (and I don't remember the exact stats is why it's a "guess") is that only about half the kids or so at Yale or Harvard went to private schools, but keep on believing what you want. It's more entertaining...

 

[Cerberus]

Originally posted by Random Access
Wow. Your attitudes are almost as obnoxious as the small minority of people at Ivies who are "elitist, pretentious pricks." My guess (and I don't remember the exact stats is why it's a "guess") is that only about half the kids or so at Yale or Harvard went to private schools, but keep on believing what you want. It's more entertaining...

You are right i was way overboard but his comments about ivies being smarter than everyone else rubbed me the wrong way.

 

[NYCGurl]

I wonder if this is the typical state school vs. Ivy debate or just another showcase for the dog eat dog group called premed students? I hate to break it to people but med school acceptance is just one of those mysteries, you can argue it all you want but is it going to help you get in?

As for getting into the top tiered schools, wanna know what they call graduates of the lowest ranked med school? MDs.


Lighten up people!

 

[arktec]

this is too funny. while we're at it lets put the MD vs. DO debate to rest. And also handwriting vs. typing secondaries. best of luck to all!

 

[Cerberus]

Originally posted by arktec
this is too funny. while we're at it lets put the MD vs. DO debate to rest. And also handwriting vs. typing secondaries. best of luck to all!

you forgot AA! god you people are SO #@$##$@ DUMB!!!!

 

[dara678]

Too bad Darkchild is being attacked on a all sides. While I agree that you are going to get a quality education no matter where you go, one thing you guys aren't considering is the level of competition within the school itself. Some schools are historically known to have very difficult organic chemistry and biology classes, specifically designed to "weed out" premed students. Typically, the Ivy League and top-tier colleges structure their programs to be very very competitive. In my biology class, for instance, out of 400 people only 10 people got A's. A lot of med schools consider the rigor of the undergraduate institution while considering applicants. Consequently, while it isn't right to think that students at Podunk U will be less smart than students at Harvard, perhaps it is correct to suggest that students at Podunk U will not be subjected to the same difficulty of curriculum.

 

[Gleevec]

Darkchild didnt say they were smarter, he said they were better able to get into medical school. It is only because of premed hubris (that pisses off other majors/professions) that you equated smarter with ability to get into med school.

Private top ranked schools are much more likely to give grants and other forms of aid to needy students (to my knowledge, these schools have a need-blind admissions process).

Finally, as someone who went to a relatively public school (about 3000 students, 700 in my grad class) who is now an "elitist, pretentious, prick," I can say that my opportunities for research, class participation, and overall academic experience are much greater than I would have otherwise.

The fact is, these schools arent creating class warfare, I know several students at my institution and private schools that have hefty scholarships and aid because of their socioeconomic position. Sure a few students in each class are legacies from each family, but sometimes you get richarse legacies at public schools as well (one Bush sister goes to Yale, other goes to UT-Austin), but most students are pretty much alike. I think Cerberus would be hard pressed to identify a public/private school student based on talking to them, without asking them straight up. The fact is, college kids are college kids, and the belief that private school kids are "elitist, pretentious, pricks" is as wrong as the belief that public school kids are "dumb, whiny, lazy bums who would rather spend money on a new car than their education".

Originally posted by Cerberus
Personally I think this is complete BS. Great, a nobel prize winner teaches you physics wooopieeee does that mean you are gonna come out of physics knowing more about physics than joe state school? I doubt seriously doubt it. It does not follow that because someone is a great scientist they will be a great educator. Not to mention the curriculum for the premed classes is pretty much the same anywhere you go. Also I'd like to know what percentage of these super smart ivy kids went to private prep schools while the rest of us dummies were stuck in public schools. Does that make them smarter? No, maybe a little more prepared but i guarantee i know some dumb state school kids that could pwn your ivies in any scientific subject.




Yup ivies are more likely to get into any ivy medschool but is that because they are smarter or more prepared? Or is it because they are part of the good ole boy system that accepts those from ivy league schools simply because they are from ivy league schools?

Honestly I would rather go to a lowly state school than a school full of elitist, pretentious, pricks anyday

 

[Cerberus]

Originally posted by Gleevec
Darkchild didnt say they were smarter, he said they were better able to get into medical school. It is only because of premed hubris (that pisses off other majors/professions) that you equated smarter with ability to get into med school.

I think if you reread his post you will see he did say that private school kids are smarter.

1) you've got to make a pretty strong case to not convince me that the students at one school are smarter than the students of another.

 

[DW]

can someone fix this broken record?

 

[Cerberus]

Originally posted by DW
can someone fix this broken record?

shudup pretty boy

 

[DW]

Originally posted by Cerberus
shudup pretty boy

dont hate....congratulate

 

[DarkChild]

I love a good flame fest.
Ok some points:
silent_r: I congratulate you on your accomplishments. Please understand though that at certain schools (not just the Ivies - Stanford, Uchicago, Duke...) almost everyone was just like you. If not with similar scholastic achievments, then with stellar achievements outside of the class room. that goes to my point about minority and majority. at sweetbriar you were likely the minority at more renowned school you would have been another head in the crowd
cerberus: to me, an education is not an end on to itself. my goal in life isnt to be able to solve orgo 101 questions ridiculously quickly or do calc 3. your point about accomplished researchers not necessarily being good teachers holds water only if you assume you went to school for the best teaching. which honestly I didnt. If I wanted the best teaching, I would probably go to a small liberal arts college where you get a ton of personal attention and get to know your professors well. I chose the school I went to and chose to take classes with famous professors because I wanted to be inspired. Its not often that you get to meet the michael jordans of neuroscience or economics or mathematics... As far as I was concerned, I could learn the majority of the college curriculum through reading the text books. I looked to my teachers to try and get a glimpse of how they viewed their minds worked.

lets get a few things straight though. this is my position:
1) the average top-tiered student worked harder in highschool and accomplished more than the average student at a low-ranked school. perhaps smarter was not the right word for me to have chosen in my earlier post.
2) there will allows be exceptions to any rule: there will be dumb kids at ivies and geniuses at the local community college. there will be elitist pricks at the biggest party schools and the poorest of the poor at the big-name schools.
3) thankfully students, irrespective of where they go, who work hard are rewarded: even podunk U sends a few students to harvard med every year.

flame away.

 

[DarkChild]

Originally posted by DW
can someone fix this broken record?

DW I totally agree, except the title of this post was just too agravating. Putting the debate to rest sounded so final and the first few posts were so PC it didnt say much - it was my civic duty to step in an ruffle a few feathers

 

[Dr. Lawyer]

I titled the post in the hopes of bringing this contentious debate to closure, and it seems that we have done just that. Here's what we seem to have concluded:

1) Students from non top-tier colleges are unworthy and should not be allowed to medical school.

2) Ivy-trained MDs are the only acceptable physicians to trust with your medical care.

3) Handwriting your secondaries is a felony in 12 states.

4) Osteopathic medicine!? More like Osteopathetic medicine!!