Q regarding U of Washington

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oreosandsake

oreosandsake

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I have heard that U of W does not accept DO students for away rotations.

I am not 100% confident as to the validity of this statement, although I understand that they are rather selective being the only medical school for so many states.

Can someone enlighten me on this subject, and if it also applies towards their resident selection? I also noticed on their website that they did not have any DO's on staff in their PM&R department (but i could be mistaken.)

Thank you
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It is my understanding that they accept both for away rotations. You could email the clerkship coordinator and ask: Phaedra Allen, ([email protected]). You have to work around UW students doing their required Chronic Care Clerkship.
 
I can't comment on their visiting medical student policy, as I never attempted to schedule an elective at their institution. I am an Osteopathic medical student and interviewed for the residency program. The program director was honest about not having any DO attendings on faculty. However, she did say that Osteopathic residents are welcome to utilize OMT, as long as the attending has no objection. Overall, I never felt any discrimination during the interview process. Even if you are not able to rotate there, I would recommend applying and seeing what happens.

Best of Luck,

sammybear
 
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Thank you rxexercise sammybear and drusso!



Now that it's back on my "list" of potential away rotations... I just have to figure out which two I will end up going to.
 
I'm a DO student. I did a rotation there a few months ago and I didn't sense any discrimination during my rotation.

During my interview with the PD it did come up however. She told me outright that because I went to a DO school she was concerned about my clinical education. I believe she was concerned that my school may have schlepted me out to clinics and Drs offices to work weak hours under preceptors without anyone holding me responsible. I definitely had to defend my education a little bit. She wanted to know about each of my rotations - what facility I was at, how many beds, who my preceptor was, whether I worked with residents, what a typical day was like, if we had morning report, grand rounds, who presented, when did we round, how much call, how many patients I carried, whether I did any sub-I's. It was over an hour interview and we didn't talk about much else. It was definitely my most intense interview. It caught me off guard and still seems odd looking back on it. And yet in the end it went well. I really believe I alleviated all of her concerns.

The point is there was, without a doubt some poor preconcieved notions there about DO's. I trained at a 716 bed level one trauma center, with daily morning reports, grand rounds, rounded with attendings, held responsible by residents, call Q4... Unfortunately she seemed surprised by this! but I was glad to have let her know.
 
Thank you for representing the osteopathic profession so well.
 
I had the same issue with the same PD years ago. I think it is total BS. If she never, or rarely, had interaction with DOs then I could totally understand the grilling. We are a proportionately rare physician, especially in the Northwest.

But the fact is that she has interacted with fellow DO attendings around the country and DO residents for many years and is well aware of our training. We are NOT an unknown quantity to her.

This really turned me off to her program, which was weak in pain and musculoskeletal at the time anyway!

I'm now a board certified Physiatrist and boarded and fellowship trained Pain Medicine specialist back in Seattle, and her signature is on my primary ABPMR certificate!



clarence said:
I'm a DO student. I did a rotation there a few months ago and I didn't sense any discrimination during my rotation.

During my interview with the PD it did come up however. She told me outright that because I went to a DO school she was concerned about my clinical education. I believe she was concerned that my school may have schlepted me out to clinics and Drs offices to work weak hours under preceptors without anyone holding me responsible. I definitely had to defend my education a little bit. She wanted to know about each of my rotations - what facility I was at, how many beds, who my preceptor was, whether I worked with residents, what a typical day was like, if we had morning report, grand rounds, who presented, when did we round, how much call, how many patients I carried, whether I did any sub-I's. It was over an hour interview and we didn't talk about much else. It was definitely my most intense interview. It caught me off guard and still seems odd looking back on it. And yet in the end it went well. I really believe I alleviated all of her concerns.

The point is there was, without a doubt some poor preconcieved notions there about DO's. I trained at a 716 bed level one trauma center, with daily morning reports, grand rounds, rounded with attendings, held responsible by residents, call Q4... Unfortunately she seemed surprised by this! but I was glad to have let her know.
Click to expand...
 
One of last year's chief residents was also a DO. . .
 
What is the name of the program director?
 
One of last year's chiefs was a DO and one of this year's R1s is also a DO. As far as your interview goes, I would have to say that UW was one of my most challenging interviews last year. They (including Dr. Massagli) actually asked me a lot of very detailed questions about my clerkship experiences/responsibilities and research project, and I graduated from an allopathic school. So, while some of her questioning may have been related to you having trained at an osteopathic school, I think a lot of it might just have been the type of interviewer she is. My point is that there have been DOs in this program and they have done very well. Also, as pointed out previously, Dr. Massagli has interacted with many DOs in her career so I don't necessarily think her line of questioning was discriminatory, especially when I compare it to my interview experience as an allopathic grad. Dr.Massagli is a pretty smart lady and I think it's pretty doubtful that she has not recognized in her career that there are many very successful DOs in medicine, particularly PM&R. That being said I didn't experience your interview, so maybe there is more to it. Overall I left the interview feeling like they really cared about why I wanted to do PM&R and what my preparation had been up to that point. My interview at RIC was similar in that regard. BTW, the PD's name is Terry Massagli.
 
clarence said:
I'm a DO student. I did a rotation there a few months ago and I didn't sense any discrimination during my rotation.

During my interview with the PD it did come up however. She told me outright that because I went to a DO school she was concerned about my clinical education. I believe she was concerned that my school may have schlepted me out to clinics and Drs offices to work weak hours under preceptors without anyone holding me responsible. I definitely had to defend my education a little bit. She wanted to know about each of my rotations - what facility I was at, how many beds, who my preceptor was, whether I worked with residents, what a typical day was like, if we had morning report, grand rounds, who presented, when did we round, how much call, how many patients I carried, whether I did any sub-I's. It was over an hour interview and we didn't talk about much else. It was definitely my most intense interview. It caught me off guard and still seems odd looking back on it. And yet in the end it went well. I really believe I alleviated all of her concerns.

The point is there was, without a doubt some poor preconcieved notions there about DO's. I trained at a 716 bed level one trauma center, with daily morning reports, grand rounds, rounded with attendings, held responsible by residents, call Q4... Unfortunately she seemed surprised by this! but I was glad to have let her know.
Click to expand...

Can I ask which school do you go to?
 
Ligament said:
I had the same issue with the same PD years ago. I think it is total BS. If she never, or rarely, had interaction with DOs then I could totally understand the grilling. We are a proportionately rare physician, especially in the Northwest.

But the fact is that she has interacted with fellow DO attendings around the country and DO residents for many years and is well aware of our training. We are NOT an unknown quantity to her.

This really turned me off to her program, which was weak in pain and musculoskeletal at the time anyway!

I'm now a board certified Physiatrist and boarded and fellowship trained Pain Medicine specialist back in Seattle, and her signature is on my primary ABPMR certificate!
Click to expand...

Lig,

I had nearly an identical experience as you did. In fact, on my interview she asked me if DO's did their rotations in "real hospitals." I thought that this was an odd line of questioning for two reasons:

1) I rotated at UW as a third-year medical student and the last time I checked UW was a "real hospital."

2) I think it underscored her general lack of knowledge about the skills and qualifications of DO's. I mean, in the proverbial language of the kids these days..."*****, puh-leeze!"

I had high hopes about UW, but her interview pretty much sent me packing to little 'ol Rochester, MN where they all seemed to know about DO's! Furthermore, I can corroborate our experiences with another individual: A good friend of mine from residency (now a fellowship-trained pain physiatrist too) was asked the *IDENTICAL* questions from her...and he went to school at MSUCOM which has *BOTH* MD and DO medical schools...

So, needless to say, things are a little "funny" in Seattle. I attribute it to severe Vit D deficiency and the rain...some one needs to give her the heads up.
 
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drusso,
did you do your residency at MAYO?
 
Sign me up! oh wait, i still have to get into medical school... :oops:

Thank you for the answer.
 
I'm one of the chiefs at UW this year (07-08), and I'm an MD. Perhaps the DOs here can confirm this, but my understanding is that for DO schools that don't have an attached hospital, students have to get clerkships/preceptorships at various sites. Since these can be of varying quality depending on the site, and since preceptorships are generally less standardized experiences, I think it's reasonable for Terry to ask questions about the content of a student's experiences. (Granted, allopathic education has its own problems with variability as well -- see below.) I do think it's reasonable (and actually shows due diligence) for the PD to find out an applicant's specific experiences.
For what it's worth, when I interviewed, she asked me about my 4th year clerkships as well and my plans for internship. So I'm not certain it's entirely a DO-specific experience. I think Terry wants her residents to be well prepared to take on the clinical responsibilities of an R2.
And yes, some of our most succesful residents in recent years have been DOs. I also know that we've had DOs as visiting med students. We had great DO applicants this year, too -- I can say from first-hand experience.
 
TMac said:
For what it's worth, when I interviewed, she asked me about my 4th year clerkships as well and my plans for internship. So I'm not certain it's entirely a DO-specific experience. I think Terry wants her residents to be well prepared to take on the clinical responsibilities of an R2.
Click to expand...

TMac,

I can't think of one program that *isn't* interested in knowing if an applicant is prepared to take on the clinical responsibilities of an R2. However, if in the process of obtaining that information, a sub-set of applicants feel that their whole training and education has been insulted, then maybe the folks down in "Personnel" need to re-evaluate the whole interview-day experience. It's sort of bad karma for the program...Seven years later, it appears that not much has changed as evidenced by clarence's remarks above.

You'll have to take me at my word for my "N=1" experience, but I did do a little validation check that day just to make sure that I could believe my ears. After the interview my friend from MSU (who interviewed that same day) and I went out with a couple of other applicants from MD schools. We compared notes. The two MD applicants didn't get asked about "real hospitals," or the number of beds, or whether they had to take call on their rotations, if they ever had to present at morning report, etc. The DO applicants did. Go back and read clarence's and Ligament's posts...does that sound welcoming?

Yes, DO's schools do include more rural, family medicine, and ambulatory medicine rotations in their curriculum than do MD schools. That's part of the mission of most DO schools---meeting the need for primary care physicians in underserved parts of the country. But, DO students also do rotations in large, tertiary-care, level-1 trauma centers too. If she was unclear about that 7 years ago, she should know that by now. You may not expect Joe Sixpack to know that, but you certainly expect someone in ACADEMIC MEDICINE to know!

The PD is the face of a residency program. It's UW's perogative to do whatever it wants on its interview day, but this issue just doesn't come up at other programs including Harvard, Kessler, Michigan, Baylor, RIC, and Mayo. Some times it can be hard for an institution to change its reputation and UW has always had some fence-mending to do in physiatry.

Physiatry has always been a "good fit" for DO's and many DO's have made significant contributions to the field including Scott Nadler, Ross Zafonte, James Sliwa, Heidi Prather, and others. In light of the accomplishments of these individuals, some people find her line of questioning insulting. Maybe she just should begin with the assertion that the training for either degree is more similar than different and go from there...
 
I realize that U of W probably interviews a fair amt of applicants due to the larger class size. Despite this, you would think that the DO students that were invited for an interview were selected because they met some level of standards at least. However, it wouldn't be the first time DO students have been asked these sorts of questions.

Just my two cents...
 
I hope it's not against protocol for a PD to post to this thread. I do interview every applicant, for 20-30 min if they are here on a group interview day, and for an hour on other days, so I can discuss the nuts and bolts of the program. I ask a lot of questions about training, research, community service and PM&R exposure. This year I asked every applicant who had not already completed their 4th year to describe their 4th year clerkships, electives, sub Is, or other anticipated activities. I asked just over a third of the applicants (allopathic and osteopathic) to describe their core 3rd year clerkships. Following some pointed feedback from Dr. Russo after his interview in 2002, I have tried to be more circumspect about when I ask for this information, and to explain why I want to know it. I can see from the post by clarence that I have room to improve. I will work on it.
 
I wonder if part of the problem lies in the quality and breadth of applicants' Dean's Letters. I noticed when I was involved in the interviewing process, that some Dean's Letter and letters of recommendation were very detailed and complete including information on pre-matriculation data, class rank, percentile scores on in-service exams, etc. Other's were just more or less celebratory advocacy statements.

One piece of advice given to me when I was a medical student was to get your writers of letter's of rec. to actually *say* something concrete about your performance and not just your character: Include information on the rotation experience and its objective, whether you did extra presentations or work, and to what degree you mastered the material or objectives given you. If your rotation occurred at a community-based program or venue (which many osteopathic programs do), then a little context will go a long way...

So for example, a strong letter with some useful context might read:

"It's my pleasure to write on behalf of Mr. Jones who is applying to your program. I know Mr. Jones from his 4 week neurology rotation where I served as his teaching and attending physician. The neurology clerkship is an elective experience offered to medical students in their 4th year at Our Mercy of the Sacred Daughter Hospital, an affiliated community-based teaching site with the Inter-Galactical and Regional Osteopathic Post-doctoral Training Institution (OPTI). The hospital also sponsors a dual-accredited ACGME and AOA-approved residency program in neurology.

As part of the elective experience in neurology, medical students work with senior neurology residents, rotating internal medicine house-staff, and visiting fellows. Depending upon the service census, medical students are expected to co-manage 2-5 general neurology inpatients, assist residents with on-call duties for the hospital stroke service no more frequently than every 4th night, and are expected to visit neuromuscular disease and headache specialty clinics at least twice per week.

Mr. Jones earned a grade of 92 out of 100 points on his end-of-rotation examination placing his performance in the superior range. Residents and housestaff alike commented that Mr. Jones was quick to master the essentials of the neurological history and physical examination. He was inquisitive, attentive to detail, and could promptly recall pertinent aspects of his patients' medical history. For his end-of-rotation presentation, Mr. Jones prepared a thoughtful review of amyolateral sclerosis. Though his presentation was lacking new information about the biochemical basis for the disorder and its emerging treatments, it was otherwise complete and a very interesting and concise topical review."

Guiding your writers to write THAT kind of letter will provide readers with a much "crisper" view of your experience and a better launching pad for getting to know you and assess your capabilities. It should also obviate the need to answer what may be perceived as untoward questions...
 
TLM said:
I hope it's not against protocol for a PD to post to this thread. I do interview every applicant, for 20-30 min if they are here on a group interview day, and for an hour on other days, so I can discuss the nuts and bolts of the program. I ask a lot of questions about training, research, community service and PM&R exposure. This year I asked every applicant who had not already completed their 4th year to describe their 4th year clerkships, electives, sub Is, or other anticipated activities. I asked just over a third of the applicants (allopathic and osteopathic) to describe their core 3rd year clerkships. Following some pointed feedback from Dr. Russo after his interview in 2002, I have tried to be more circumspect about when I ask for this information, and to explain why I want to know it. I can see from the post by clarence that I have room to improve. I will work on it.
Click to expand...

It is not against protocol at all for PDs to participate - in fact, we truly appreciate you and other PDs and fellowship directors' presence on the forum. Your clarification/explanation goes far in dispelling misconceptions out there - and allows for open communication and accurate evaluation based on facts.
 
Dear TLM; your posts are welcomed here at any time and we want to encourage program directors to have an interactive presence here as much as possible.

Your response is appropriate and your desire to improve the interview experience much appreciated. That is all anybody can ask.

TLM said:
I hope it's not against protocol for a PD to post to this thread. I do interview every applicant, for 20-30 min if they are here on a group interview day, and for an hour on other days, so I can discuss the nuts and bolts of the program. I ask a lot of questions about training, research, community service and PM&R exposure. This year I asked every applicant who had not already completed their 4th year to describe their 4th year clerkships, electives, sub Is, or other anticipated activities. I asked just over a third of the applicants (allopathic and osteopathic) to describe their core 3rd year clerkships. Following some pointed feedback from Dr. Russo after his interview in 2002, I have tried to be more circumspect about when I ask for this information, and to explain why I want to know it. I can see from the post by clarence that I have room to improve. I will work on it.
Click to expand...
 
Thought people might be interested to know that UW matched 3 DO applicants for next year's class of 10. For what it's worth.
 
drusso said:
I wonder if part of the problem lies in the quality and breadth of applicants' Dean's Letters. I noticed when I was involved in the interviewing process, that some Dean's Letter and letters of recommendation were very detailed and complete including information on pre-matriculation data, class rank, percentile scores on in-service exams, etc. Other's were just more or less celebratory advocacy statements.

One piece of advice given to me when I was a medical student was to get your writers of letter's of rec. to actually *say* something concrete about your performance and not just your character: Include information on the rotation experience and its objective, whether you did extra presentations or work, and to what degree you mastered the material or objectives given you. If your rotation occurred at a community-based program or venue (which many osteopathic programs do), then a little context will go a long way...

So for example, a strong letter with some useful context might read:

"It's my pleasure to write on behalf of Mr. Jones who is applying to your program. I know Mr. Jones from his 4 week neurology rotation where I served as his teaching and attending physician. The neurology clerkship is an elective experience offered to medical students in their 4th year at Our Mercy of the Sacred Daughter Hospital, an affiliated community-based teaching site with the Inter-Galactical and Regional Osteopathic Post-doctoral Training Institution (OPTI). The hospital also sponsors a dual-accredited ACGME and AOA-approved residency program in neurology.

As part of the elective experience in neurology, medical students work with senior neurology residents, rotating internal medicine house-staff, and visiting fellows. Depending upon the service census, medical students are expected to co-manage 2-5 general neurology inpatients, assist residents with on-call duties for the hospital stroke service no more frequently than every 4th night, and are expected to visit neuromuscular disease and headache specialty clinics at least twice per week.

Mr. Jones earned a grade of 92 out of 100 points on his end-of-rotation examination placing his performance in the superior range. Residents and housestaff alike commented that Mr. Jones was quick to master the essentials of the neurological history and physical examination. He was inquisitive, attentive to detail, and could promptly recall pertinent aspects of his patients' medical history. For his end-of-rotation presentation, Mr. Jones prepared a thoughtful review of amyolateral sclerosis. Though his presentation was lacking new information about the biochemical basis for the disorder and its emerging treatments, it was otherwise complete and a very interesting and concise topical review."

Guiding your writers to write THAT kind of letter will provide readers with a much "crisper" view of your experience and a better launching pad for getting to know you and assess your capabilities. It should also obviate the need to answer what may be perceived as untoward questions...
Click to expand...
I, like drusso, have had the pleasure of writing and reading many of these letters. I can tell you from the review committee's perspective, letters get reduced to a number, as do all other aspects of the interview process, to be able to accurately compare applicants throughout the application process.

While your idea of specifics is rewarding from the applicant's perspective, the eyes of the members of the committee, who review 100s of these, glaze over pretty quickly. You start to skim, and look for buzzwords. You end up reducing them to below average (1), average (2), above average (3), and top 10% (4), pretty darn quickly. Also, since the average applicant is generally savvy enough to chose those he at least thinks he or she impressed, the mean tends to skew high, and so the specifics become even less important when the only thing that actually stands out is either a bad, or even average LOR.

Then again, Dave got into Mayo, and I went to LSU, so take a lot of what I say with a huge grain of salt! (or feel free to ignore me altogether - most people do :D)
 
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