Quality of USUHS?

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CrossMaster

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I am currently a senior at an academy. I am very split between a civilian school and USUHS. USUHS seems to make sense financially and professionally considering I owe many years to the military.

What is the true quality of the education at USUHS compared to its civilians counterparts? How do USUHS students fare against HPSP when it comes to getting the choice residencies?

Thanks.

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I am currently a senior at an academy. I am very split between a civilian school and USUHS. USUHS seems to make sense financially and professionally considering I owe many years to the military.

What is the true quality of the education at USUHS compared to its civilians counterparts? How do USUHS students fare against HPSP when it comes to getting the choice residencies?

Thanks.

I'm a student at USUHS just to preface....The boards compare application for the match based on points. Points are not awarded for what school you attend period. If you do well in school and during clerkships and on the boards you will get a competative residency, if you are poor in all of the above you won't. Doesn't matter what school you come from. As for the quality of education consensous even in this forum seems to be that the education is quite good, it's the military stuff afterward that most complain about. Some say there is preference for USUHS students in the military match...the official word is that we don't get any such preference. Bottom line it won't be the med school you choose that makes you more competative in the match as far as I can tell. If you wanna stay in for the haul USUHS will eventually count toward retirement (once you hit 20 you bump to 24 years in service). There are plenty of others more experienced around here that can either back all this up or refute it.
 
I am currently a senior at an academy. I am very split between a civilian school and USUHS. USUHS seems to make sense financially and professionally considering I owe many years to the military.

What is the true quality of the education at USUHS compared to its civilians counterparts? How do USUHS students fare against HPSP when it comes to getting the choice residencies?

Thanks.

As far as the quality of the education goes, I have been impressed with the USUHS students I have interacted with, and less than impressed with some HPSP students. Overall you will get a solid education at USU, with some additional training that you will not recieve at a civilian school (ie ATLS or equivalent, emphasis on tropical medicine). I cannot comment on the "choice residencies."

FDGB
Disclaimer - I am not USU or HPSP, however I rotated at WRAMC and other DC area hospitals with USU and HPSP students.
 
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I went to a private medical school that had a large teaching hospital. We had a level 1 trauma center, stroke team with neurosurgery, neurology and neurointerventional radiology and pediatrics hospital. The staff were also well published and were leaders in their fields. Do USUHS students get exposure to any of those things? I did an internship at Bethesda and was underwhelmed by the lack of those state of the art resources and ancillary staff.
 
I went to a private medical school that had a large teaching hospital. We had a level 1 trauma center, stroke team with neurosurgery, neurology and neurointerventional radiology and pediatrics hospital. The staff were also well published and were leaders in their fields. Do USUHS students get exposure to any of those things? I did an internship at Bethesda and was underwhelmed by the lack of those state of the art resources and ancillary staff.


Why as a matter of fact, Yes, USUHS students can get exposure to those things. USUHS students don't do all of their rotations at Bethesda. They rotate at many of the military hospitals throughout the military including Tripler in Hawaii (Free trip to hawaii anyone??) They can also rotate pretty much wherever they want as fourth years as long as they set it up. You can also do some rotations at Washington Hospital Center in downtown DC.
 
At OBC all of the USHSU peeps I met seemed of average intelligence relative to your average med student. Some more, some less just like civilian. One person, however, I would have sworn he was borderline ******ed if I hadn't known he was in med school. He must've rocked the MCAT cuz I am not exaggerating on this dudes level of function.
 
I am an army resident in the national capital consortium who works at both of the major hospitals where USU students rotate. I attended a private medical school in the midwest with an associated level 1 trauma center university hospital and children's hospital. These are my impressions of USUHS.

1. The education is pretty much the same as you would get anywhere else. It is a personal pet peeve of mine that people think the education at Mayo or Hopkins is any better than that of a standard medical school. Do these schools know of some organ system or disease that the rest of the medical establishment is ignorant of? Do the profs at these schools possess the magical ability to insert knowledge into a student's head and make one a better doctor? Medical school requires one to consume a vast amount of knowledge which is done primarily by the individual. Every school has the same disinterested profs giving powerpoints about the same subjects. The bulk of one's learning is done on one's own reading the syllabi and the texts. Of importance is the fact that USUHS has a minimal amount of PBL and adheres primarily to a lecture based curriculum. There is an obvious military slant to a number of course, but whether that is considered a pro or a con is up to the individual.

2. In general, the overall caliber of the students is lower than that of civilian allopathic schools. To be sure, there are plenty of very bright students at USUHS; the top half of each class is equal to the top half of the other medical schools in the country. The bottom half/quarter at USUHS is significantly worse than this population at civilian medical schools. In speaking to my fellow residents, I have been told that 15-20 students are commonly held back between 1st and 2nd year. I was also told that around 10 students per year failed step 1 on their first attempt. In my med school class 3 students were held back and 1 failed step 1. My own hypothesis for this fact comes from USUHS's penchant to accept non-traditional students and prior service students. Some of these people were just never as good at the academic game. My wife echoes my sentiments. The top students that rotate on her team from USU and civilian med schools are equivalent, but she has told me on numerous occasions that when she gets saddled with a bad student, the ones from USUHS are significantly worse than the civilian ones.

3. The opportunities at USUHS are comparable to civilian schools. The obvious exceptions to this statement are the big-name, high powered research oriented medical schools (this is the advantage the Hopkins and Mayos of the world have over normal medical schools-the opportunities to be involved in research). There are research projects going on that students can attach themselves to with some extra work. The military offers residencies in every major medical specialty, so there are always opportunities to rotate in a specialty that you find interesting. The difference for USUHS comes in that the different medical centers have different capabilities. For example, BAMC is the only level 1 Trauma center in the army, so for a surgery rotation heavy on Trauma one must go there. I also think that going to so many hospitals for rotations is beneficial in that one sees how many different departments work and a student will have way more info than a civilian student when it comes time to match having rotated at every program in a given military specialty (the downside to rotating at so many med cens is the obvious toll that travelling takes).

4. USUHS students have no disadvantage when it comes time to match, in fact they may have a slight advantage. PD's in the military really evaluate students individually. If one has top scores, top grades, and was liked on the sub-i one will match there. USUHS students may have a slight advantage in that they have more opportunities to endear themselves to a program director than the civilian students who rotate for a month, and the most important factor in matching is the recommendation of the PD.
 
In speaking to my fellow residents, I have been told that 15-20 students are commonly held back between 1st and 2nd year. I was also told that around 10 students per year failed step 1 on their first attempt.

I think Ziehl-Nielsen has been pretty fair in the assessment but I wanted to make a couple of points very clear.
1 -- Generally 3 students get held back so bag what you heard, it's simply not true. About the boards I think those numbers are accurate. I'm not sure what time other schools give for dedicated study for step 1 but we get 6 weeks if you need it. Most people take 3 or 4, and the scores run the spectrum.
2 -- My class just chose our thrid year rotations recently, and many people were able to stay local and those who WANTED to travel did. Travel can and will take its toll on the "road warriors" as we call them but in the end they will usually trade rotations with somebody who WANTS to travel.
3 -- USUHS and the military in general will not razzle dazzle you with their fancy buildings, equipment, and new hospitals but you won't pay 30+K/year to attend.

There was also a poster who was talking intelligence, not sure what that was about but there are students here that struggle at times. Instead of staring down our noses at them as fellow classmates we try to help each other. There are many schools that take students with lower "stats" than USUHS who end up making fine doctors....and some not so fine. All I'm saying is that the comment seems a little out there, maybe not well thought out? I dunno I think you're getting good feedback just want to make sure it's accurate. I think it's hard not to think your school's great no matter where your going....look at all the happy people in the carribean med schools, bet that wasn't their first choice but they all seem really happy.
 
From what I understand, 10 step 1 failures out of 165 students makes one of the better pass rates among allopathic schools. Class average for step 1 is about average for all allopathic schools.

I think most agree that the training is good. The issue is after graduation; since the commitment is 7 yrs, you will almost certainly do a military residency and 2 tours. So that is a lot of time in the military if you aren't happy about being in the military. With HPSP you can do 1 tour and get out.
 
From what I understand, 10 step 1 failures out of 165 students makes one of the better pass rates among allopathic schools. Class average for step 1 is about average for all allopathic schools.

Yeah, hit the nail on the head here. My class has 178 students if ten fail step 1 on first try we have a 94.4% pass rate. National average for US medical schools is 95%...you can find this with google.

Keep in mind that the quality of the the student and the quality of the education are not in any way shape or form the same thing!!! The stats you look up tend to tell the tale of the students. If you do more google searching you will find studies that have correlated MCAT score and undergrad GPA with success on the USMLE.....hmmmm sounds like study habits and the student to me. Anyway.....
 
At OBC all of the USHSU peeps I met seemed of average intelligence relative to your average med student. Some more, some less just like civilian. One person, however, I would have sworn he was borderline ******ed if I hadn't known he was in med school. He must've rocked the MCAT cuz I am not exaggerating on this dudes level of function.

LOL, Let me guess, he's Navy, class of 2011. If so, I know exactly who you are talking about... there is only one like him. He's actually a nice guy, so don't pick on him too much... I did OIS with him in July, and yes, he's an odd bird.

For the record, I am not a med student, I am a clinical psychology Ph.D. student. I would say that the clin psych program is excellent... the med school seems a bit regimented in comparison and I know for a fact that many smart people are in the program.

Mark
 
I didn't go to USUHS. My impression of the school, it's students, and it's graduates is that the pre-clinical education is fine and the clinical education is hurt by the quality of the instructors. I have the same impression of military GME. Great academics, but young, inexperienced (but oftentimes dedicated) faculty who are frequently deployed and are too busy with military duties to do some of the things faculty does in a civilian program. What kind of a civilian residency program has faculty turnover of 30%/year? This is common in military GME, and these are the same people (together with the residents) responsible for your 3rd and 4th year education.
 
Yes you will, you just don't realize it yet.

Touchette!? The money issue is very dependent whether it works out beneficial or not. I geuss my main point in mentioning the issue is that you don't have to pony up just because the school has a good name. You get a decent education that is above average for all med schools in the US. The service obligation is not, nor should it be the topic of conversation in this thread so my bad for bringing up the money thing. If you're reading this and have questions regarding it check out the USUHS thread I'm sure there is info there.

The GME issue is a function of the military and the current war. Military docs move around just like all other military folks so there will always be some turnover. This is good sometimes not so good others. I really can't refute or confirm the quality of 3-4th year education. We need some resident/attending feedback from people who have worked in those positions in here without that it's speculation. (ADMD I have no clue who you are so don't be offened I realize your status says attending)

I'm getting ready to enter my 3rd year at USUHS so if this thread stays alive that long I may be able to provide some objective feedback on the topic.
 
I didn't go to USUHS. My impression of the school, it's students, and it's graduates is that the pre-clinical education is fine and the clinical education is hurt by the quality of the instructors. I have the same impression of military GME. Great academics, but young, inexperienced (but oftentimes dedicated) faculty who are frequently deployed and are too busy with military duties to do some of the things faculty does in a civilian program. What kind of a civilian residency program has faculty turnover of 30%/year? This is common in military GME, and these are the same people (together with the residents) responsible for your 3rd and 4th year education.

I vociferously disagree with this statement. I am quite proud of my medical school and extremely pleased with the education I received, and I would argue that the clinical education one receives at USUHS is superior to the majority of allopathic schools in the nation. Mind you I can speak only about the major medical centers where I have worked, but the attendings I have worked with are top notch and have a significant interest in education while the residents are on the whole better than their civilian counterparts.

There are a number of theories I have devised to account for this, so here are a few. I have heard horror stories about some of the providers at outlying clinics and hospitals, but these are not the places USU students rotate. The MEDCENS are staffed by the best and brightest with an interest in education and the care of complicated patients (otherwise they would not have requested a major MEDCEN). Furthermore, the attendings are generally more clinically orinted individuals (many of the attendings in medical school were far more interested in their research or procedure numbers than me). I believe military residents (on the whole) are superior to the residents at a run of the mill civilian university medical center. A significant proportion of residents in this country are FMG's (and while I had many fine FMG rsidents teaching me in medical school, for every superior one I had two whose english was so atrocious as to create a significant barrier to learning). Furthermore, there seems to be more of a sense of camraderie among military residents and students knowing that we will eventually meet down the line. I had a number of excellent residents very interested in teaching while in medical school, but I also had many who knew they would never see me again and placed teaching a distant last on their priority list.

I will reiterate, I think USUHS is an above average medical school; it is the general caliber of students I believe to be below average.
 
I vociferously disagree with this statement. I am quite proud of my medical school and extremely pleased with the education I received, and I would argue that the clinical education one receives at USUHS is superior to the majority of allopathic schools in the nation.

The problem with this argument is neither of us has the experience to know who is right. You haven't gone to a civilian medical school and I haven't gone to USUHS. Only the reader can decide if a USUHS-graduate, military resident (I believe that's what you are) has a better perspective than an HPSP, civilian-deferred, military faculty member who works at one of the aforementioned MEDCENs. (I guess that means I must be "the best and brightest with an interest in education and the care of complicated patients.")

P.S. The assignment process has little to do with what you request.
 
Touchette!? The money issue is very dependent whether it works out beneficial or not. I geuss my main point in mentioning the issue is that you don't have to pony up just because the school has a good name.

My point is you DO have to pony up whether the school has a good name or not. The military paid ~$30K/year for me in med school for 4 years. 8 years later, I pony up $120K/year for the military as an active duty doc. There is a time value of money, but it isn't that big!

At USUHS you get paid more, but you pick up more obligation, so the numbers work out similarly.

I'm just trying to point out something that most pre-meds and med students don't realize. The HPSP/USUHS contract is NOT a scholarship like most scholarships you have ever heard of. It isn't a gift of money that says, "You're great! Here's some cash. Please come to our school."

It is an exchange. You exchange money later for money now. Whether this works out well depends on a combination of the cost of your tuition, student loan interest rates, prior service, and choice of specialty. For me it worked out horribly. For others it is a financial break even and every now and then, you get a prior service, D.O. (or other expensive school) trained pediatrician who graduated when rates were 10%.
 
The problem with this argument is neither of us has the experience to know who is right. You haven't gone to a civilian medical school and I haven't gone to USUHS. Only the reader can decide if a USUHS-graduate, military resident (I believe that's what you are) has a better perspective than an HPSP, civilian-deferred, military faculty member who works at one of the aforementioned MEDCENs. (I guess that means I must be "the best and brightest with an interest in education and the care of complicated patients.")

P.S. The assignment process has little to do with what you request.


I mentioned it earlier in the thread--I am an HPSP student who attended a middle of the road private medical school in the midwest and am now a resident at a MEDCEN. My wife is an HPSP student who attended a highly regarded state school in Texas and is a resident at the same MEDCEN. I think we have the ability to fairly evaluate a USUHS education in comparison to our civilian medical schools. We have spoken about our respective clinical educations in medical school and compared it to that received by USU students. We believe the USU education is above average.

As an attending at a MEDCEN I would consider you part of the best and brightest. My wife and I have been told by our department chairs that when they review staff turnover they are adamant about retaining attendings that have proven themselves competent physicians with a clear dedication to and talent for teaching. In the words of my chair, "There is no room for attendings who don't want to teach at a teaching hospital."
 
The MEDCENS are staffed by the best and brightest with an interest in education and the care of complicated patients (otherwise they would not have requested a major MEDCEN).

Is that really case? Colleagues have been telling me the MEDCENS have been filled up with non-deployable physicians and others who need clinical supervision. Do you have anyone like that in pathology? I would say that usually the program directors have good reputations.
 
I mentioned it earlier in the thread--I am an HPSP student who attended a middle of the road private medical school in the midwest and am now a resident at a MEDCEN. My wife is an HPSP student who attended a highly regarded state school in Texas and is a resident at the same MEDCEN.

I must have missed that above. I find it kind of humorous that the two of us are arguing about the quality of an education at an institution that neither of us has attended.

I have also been impressed with the program directors I have met and I do know that our department tries to hold on to only the very best of the graduating residents each year. Nevertheless, the turnover and deployment ops tempo are both very high (1/3 turnover each year and about half of the group has deployed within the last year.) Residency is tough enough without your faculty advisor disappearing for 6 months.
 
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