Question about Chem pre-reqs

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proclus

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My local state uni registrar's office screwed up during my registration for the summer semester, in which I intended to take CHEM 101 & 102.

I'm registered for the CHEM 102 & lab, but the CHEM 101 & lab sections are all already filled to capacity, and it looks like I won't be able to get it.

My uni has a separate introductory CHEM & lab track which they call CHEM 104 & 105.

The credit hours are identical, and the lab time is identical for both tracks.

The CHEM department told me that the 104 & 105 classes are geared towards people in their resident nursing program, and provide a "watered down" (their words) introduction to chemistry, with some orgo & biochem thrown into the second semester.

I am considering taking this watered down CHEM 104 in the first half of the summer, and then finishing up with CHEM 102, because I don't want to delay my post bacc pre req schedule.

I'm concerned med schools might not accept the CHEM 104.

Any thoughts on this??

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I would recommend against that, Medical schools will know that it isn't the same and they may not accept it for pre-reqs. I would check with whatever entity you need to, to make sure. I would hate for you to take the class and then find out that you still have to take the other one. Sure good experience but a step in the wrong direction.
 
My original plan was as follows:

summer 2011: chem 1 & 2
spring 2012: orgo 1, bio 1, physics 1
fall 2012: orgo 2, bio 2, physics 2
spring 2013: biochem & genetics; MCAT

As a result of this registration problem I'm now considering the following alternate sched:

summer 2011: physics 1 & 2
spring 2012: orgo 1, bio 1, chem 1
fall 2012: orgo 2, bio 2, chem 2
spring 2013: biochem & genetics; MCAT

Anyone see any glaring issues with plan #2?
 
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As a result of this registration problem I'm now considering the following alternate sched:

summer 2011: physics 1 & 2
spring 2012: orgo 1, bio 1, chem 1
fall 2012: orgo 2, bio 2, chem 2
spring 2013: biochem & genetics; MCAT

Anyone see any glaring issues with plan #2?

Yes. You can't take general chemistry I and orgo I concurrently. Depending on your school's sequence, you'll either need a year of gen chem (I and I) before going into orgo, or just gen chem I (my school does this.) But either way, gen chem will be a prereq for orgo.

Was it your fault in any way, shape, or form? Or did the registrar's office really screw it up all by their lonesomes? If the latter, can you prove they screwed it up? If so, you may be able to go through the chain of command and get yourself added. (I presume you've already tried groveling to the registrar even if it was their fault.)

If you can't prove it, or you contributed, go to the professor of the other class, fling yourself on your sword, and beg hir to sign an add slip.

(I'm not sure, by the way, that the nursing-sequence chem wouldn't work for you. Check and see if it fulfills the prereqs for your school's orgo series; if it does, I can't see how it wouldn't be fine. If it doesn't, then yes, you need to take the other classes.)
 
Was it your fault in any way, shape, or form? Or did the registrar's office really screw it up all by their lonesomes? If the latter, can you prove they screwed it up? If so, you may be able to go through the chain of command and get yourself added. (I presume you've already tried groveling to the registrar even if it was their fault.)

If you can't prove it, or you contributed, go to the professor of the other class, fling yourself on your sword, and beg hir to sign an add slip.

Through perseverance and more than a little luck I was able to solve this problem.

Many thanks for the thoughts & suggestions! :)
 
Sounds like the OP got his/her problem worked out, so this is all just "shootin' the ****" as they say :) but let me pose an argument to you:

Medical schools will know that it isn't the same and they may not accept it for pre-reqs.

Do we really KNOW that medical schools know the difference? (Where's the proof?) Or is this just an assumption?

Here's what I'm thinking about...

I did some quick searching on the ol' internet and someone said that there are 2,300+ (non-profit) colleges and universities that grant four-year degrees. Add in community colleges and you're probably talking 4,000+ colleges in this country alone where you could get your pre-reqs! I can't imagine that medical schools really know the chemistry sequences at each and every one of these.

Just in my local area, here are the different course numbers that different universities have assigned to the first-term general chemistry course for science majors: CH 251, CHM 207, Chem 101, CHEM-220, Chem 110, and PHS 211 (meaning "physical sciences 211"). Six different schools, six different course numbers for the same course. So do medical schools really keep track of all of the different course numbers at every school?

It would be especially difficult for them to keep track when you consider that the course numbers change from time to time. For example, when I took first-term general chemistry at my undergrad college it was called Chemistry 37 (this was back in 2002). In the intervening years my college decided to change their numbering system and now the same course is listed as Chemistry 111. Since every single one of those 4,000+ colleges could (potentially) change their numbering system on any given year, medical schools would have to keep a running list that tracks the year-by-year changes in course numbering systems at 4,000+ different colleges and universities. I doubt that even AMCAS is up to the task.

Then you have to consider that while some schools have two different versions of each class, this isn't always the case. One of the private schools in my city only offers one version of general chemistry... no "easy" version. But in the case of physics, I think it's pretty common to offer three versions: an "easy" version, a physics/biology/chemistry-major version, and an engineering version. So again, I think it would be really difficult for schools to ensure every student is taking the right level of each pre-req.

---

My bottom line is: take the harder version of your pre-reqs not because the medical school will know, but because the harder version is the version that will better prepare you for the MCAT.
 
I beg to differ with you on the point of what constitutes pre reqs, if my undergraduate institution as incompetent as they are can make sure you have the correct pre reqs (from out of university institutions) for granting a degree then I'm pretty sure that those who count pre reqs for med school would be able to ascertain the same, now do I KNOW for sure, no I don't, which is why I told the OP to check for themselves. I was trying to save them some hassle and was more voicing caution than anything else. I am not trying to pick a fight here just for the record, merely clarifying my point and what leads me to my logic.
 
OP - You're crazy if you think you'll be able to handle taking 3 lab courses just like that. I would recommend against you doing that. They are hard courses. Also, studying for the MCAT and taking Biochem + genetics?

I suggest you modify it this way:

Summer - Physics 1 and 2
Fall - Bio and Chem 1
Spring Bio and Chem 2
Summer - Ochem 1 and 2
Fall - Biochem and genetics
Spring - MCAT

Even this schedule is iffy because there's no time for research, unless you want to top that on fall and spring.
 
Do we really KNOW that medical schools know the difference? (Where's the proof?) Or is this just an assumption?
I've been told medical schools request course descriptions from the colleges directly. My college has a sequence that's called "Chemistry for Health Sciences." The description clearly says that the subject is intended for nursing students.
 
Another thought...schools MAY not know what is the easy vs hard version, they usually require it to be the same sequence ie 101 + 102 not 104 +102...and since you have to put in titles of courses, it would be easy to tell if you take "Chemistry for health science majors" or something vs General Chemistry.
 
I've been told medical schools request course descriptions from the colleges directly. My college has a sequence that's called "Chemistry for Health Sciences." The description clearly says that the subject is intended for nursing students.

If they do it this way, they aren't going to do it for all the students who apply. They might do it for students who have been accepted (or conditionally accepted). Actually, I do know that when I got my acceptance letter from one school they asked whether I had taken my required genetics class after sending transcripts to AMCAS.

But at that point if you took the wrong chemistry course they'd just make you take the right one as a summer course before you matriculate in the fall.

OP - You're crazy if you think you'll be able to handle taking 3 lab courses just like that. I would recommend against you doing that. They are hard courses. Also, studying for the MCAT and taking Biochem + genetics?

Well, looking at the plan... I took organic, physics, and bio all simultaneously with labs and survived while also doing shadowing and other pre-med stuff. But I wasn't working a job. So it can be done but only if you're really dedicated and (if I say so myself) have an aptitude for organic that's unusually high...
 
Triage, I have to say that although his plan might be a bit extreme it is not impossible. To call someone or their plan crazy without knowing them is misguided, after all that person may have the absolute aptitude for something like that and it is completely within their perview to make that choice. If they only have those classes to take I believe they would be completely capable of doing that. I agree with Hopeful, it may be difficult but it is possible.
 
Triage, I have to say that although his plan might be a bit extreme it is not impossible. To call someone or their plan crazy without knowing them is misguided, after all that person may have the absolute aptitude for something like that and it is completely within their perview to make that choice. If they only have those classes to take I believe they would be completely capable of doing that. I agree with Hopeful, it may be difficult but it is possible.

So your response to your own argument of "don't assume things" is "I assume things"?
 
Okay, more because what you said is confusing than anything else, what do you mean? Because it is not apparent (to me) that I have assumed anything. I was specifically trying to not assume. My belief about individuals and their will to overcome obstacles is a belief about anyone not just the OP.
 
The AMCAS and AACOMAS transcript verification process does look at the courses and they are compared to the course descriptions/titles from the colleges themselves.

I don't dispute what you are saying, but the way I understood the transcript verification process is that AMCAS and AACOMAS are verifying that the student's typed entries match the transcripts catalog title.

I was not aware (and remain skeptical at this point) that AMCAS/AACOMAS is verifying that you have actually met any particular requirements set by any school.

In other words, the way I understand the process to work is that:
  • Student types in class title into AMCAS/AACOMAS
  • AMCAS/AACOMAS verifies that the student's typed entry matches the transcripts
  • The individual schools are left to determine whether these classes meet their requirements

the computer will spit out anything that doesn't pass.

I don't think the computer "spits out" anything that doesn't pass, because I know of a school that when they send you a secondary application they warn you that they haven't verified that you meet their pre-reqs at that stage, and that if you aren't eligible you will have to sacrifice the fee for your secondary. So if they're going out of their way to warn people about this, it would seem that at least occasionally people make it through the primary application without a computer system spitting them out, even though they don't meet the pre-reqs...
 
Okay, more because what you said is confusing than anything else, what do you mean? Because it is not apparent (to me) that I have assumed anything. I was specifically trying to not assume. My belief about individuals and their will to overcome obstacles is a belief about anyone not just the OP.

"If they only have those classes to take I believe they would be completely capable of doing that" is just as much an assumption as the target of your original comment. :cool:
 
Yes, that is my mistake... But they do verify beyond transcription (see below)



They spit out at least for BCMP. That is a course and/or GPA should be counted as science or non-science. Its here where say a chemistry for nursing counted towards BCMP by students, spits out to a AMACS verifier, then makes a judgment and/or sends a request to student to verify with official course description.

But your are absolutely right that the AMCAS does not verify requirement fulfillment, rather just courses BCMP and non science for AMCAS GPA calculation.

As a previous poster said, this is why you can get accepted but then be required to take a course before matriculation.

My acceptance letter was conditional on my passing certain additional courses with a C.
 
OP - You're crazy if you think you'll be able to handle taking 3 lab courses just like that. I would recommend against you doing that. They are hard courses. Also, studying for the MCAT and taking Biochem + genetics?

I suggest you modify it this way:

Summer - Physics 1 and 2
Fall - Bio and Chem 1
Spring Bio and Chem 2
Summer - Ochem 1 and 2
Fall - Biochem and genetics
Spring - MCAT

Even this schedule is iffy because there's no time for research, unless you want to top that on fall and spring.

I find it interesting that you suggest so strongly that I take orgo during the summer session.

A quick forum search turns up thread after thread of people disputing whether this is either a smart way to plow through the course in a short time (provided you are sufficiently motivated & have the time to do the requisite studying that summer) or whether it's academically masochistic and risky in the sense that the summer session does not prepare one adequately for the MCAT.

Since I was able to sort my registration problem, I'm back to my original tentative sched:

Summer 2011- Chem 1 & 2
Fall 2011 - (out of the country)
Spring 2012 - Bio, Physics, & Orgo 1
Summer 2012 - (out of the country)
Fall 2012 - Bio, Physics, & Orgo 1
Spring 2013 - Biochem (& Genetics only if required by a particular school)
**May 2013 - MCAT

Assuming for the purposes of this post that I was in the USA and able to take one of the three 2012 courses (Bio, Physics, Orgo) that summer, in order to lighten the load during fall & spring, which would you choose?

And why?
 
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