Question about courseload re: pre-reqs

[CaveatLector]

I am a non-trad and am going back to school for my pre-reqs this semester. I need all of them. I basically have it calendared out so that I can matriculate to med school in '08. Based on that plan I am thinking that next year at this time I will be taking Org Chem 2 + lab, bio 2 + lab, and physics 2 + lab. Is that too much for one semester?

Any input is appreciated.

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[mthomas2]

I am a non-trad and am going back to school for my pre-reqs this semester. I need all of them. I basically have it calendared out so that I can matriculate to med school in '08. Based on that plan I am thinking that next year at this time I will be taking Org Chem 2 + lab, bio 2 + lab, and physics 2 + lab. Is that too much for one semester?

Any input is appreciated.

As long as you have 100% of your time to devote to this. I haven't taken Org Chem yet, however, I just finished a semester that consisted of Bio 2 w/lab, Physics 1 w/ lab and Gen Chem 1 w/lab and it was tough. I managed to pull
4 A's and 2 B's. This semester I slowed down because I have time too. I'll be taking Gen Chem 2 w/ lab and Physics 2w/lab plus I have the time to get involve in research. Good Luck- it's not easy but it's do-able

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

hey


as long as you dont have to work, that schedule is possible but hell. I work full time so i take one class a semester. Ill also be ready for about 2008.

 

[JimmyG]

Just don't work. I quit my job just for this semester of school. I, too, am taking Orgo II with lab, Physics II with lab, Cell Bio and Genetics (w/o lab since I am non-degree seeking). All starting Tuesday. I sure hope it is doable or I'm going to croak. But, as my pre-med advisor said, it's good to show those adcoms that you can handle a full science load and still do well.

 

[CaveatLector]

Thanks for the replies. I have a 4-year-old also that I like to spend a decent amount of time with. And I will be working part-time. But this semester I am taking physics I, Chem I w/ lab, and college algebra. I've had calculus before but that was almost 18 years ago (damn I feel old) so I'm going to refresh my mostly unused math skills a bit. Also, my university offers some online courses so I am taking physics I and II as an online and probably chem I and II as online. I just started to dive into the physics material and I hope this wasn't a mistake. This online stuff is harder than I thought it would be...

It takes me longer to understand stuff than it probably would in a regular classroom...

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I think it all depends on what else is going on in your life. I've been doing my pharmacy school pre-reqs which are about the same as the med school ones:



First Fall semester was Chem I with lab and College Algebra. I had a full-time job and my daughter was under a year old.

Second semester (spring) Chem II (+lab), Microbiology (+lab) and Anatomy I. Full-time job and one year old daughter.

Summer semester Organic I and II and labs for both. I quit my job before the summer. My daughter was 18 months old.

This past Fall was Physics I with lab and Anatomy II. I got a part-time job. My daughter turned two at the end of the semester.

Now I'm doing Physics II (+lab) and microecon. Still working part-time.




The first year sucked. Working full-time and going to school + a small child is very challenging. Eight hours of Organic in 8 weeks in the summer BLEW. Horrible. This school year hasn't been too bad. I don't work that much and my courseload is light. I actually had a question in my interview about why I didn't do my pre-reqs full time. I just told them that I worked full-time for the first year and that I've chosen to take it light this year to have more time to spend with my child before I start the more intense pharmacy school schedule. No one questioned it further.

The best part was I got my acceptance to pharm school in October of 2005 so the pressure to get high grades was off from that point on.

Good luck!

 

[businessguy]

I am a non-trad and am going back to school for my pre-reqs this semester. I need all of them. I basically have it calendared out so that I can matriculate to med school in '08. Based on that plan I am thinking that next year at this time I will be taking Org Chem 2 + lab, bio 2 + lab, and physics 2 + lab. Is that too much for one semester?

Why don't you do this:

Summer 2006: Bio 1 & 2
Fall 2006: Orgo 1 + Phys 1
Winter 2007: Orgo 2 + Phys 2
April: MCAT

Do you already have Gen Chem?

 

[Law2Doc]

I am a non-trad and am going back to school for my pre-reqs this semester. I need all of them. I basically have it calendared out so that I can matriculate to med school in '08. Based on that plan I am thinking that next year at this time I will be taking Org Chem 2 + lab, bio 2 + lab, and physics 2 + lab. Is that too much for one semester?

Any input is appreciated.

Depends what kind of student you are. Did you ace orgo 1, bio 1 and physics 1? If you had no trouble with those, then doing the three is fine, although I agree with the prior posters that you shouldn't try to do this and work. If you didn't breeze through the prior semesters of each of these courses, I would spread them out a bit more. The point is usually not just to finish the prereqs, but to excel at them. Rushing through the prereqs with a B average or less simply won't impress many med schools, while taking the courses more slowly but getting straight A's generally would.

 

[viostorm]

I am a non-trad and am going back to school for my pre-reqs this semester. I need all of them.
Any input is appreciated.

I was at the same point, now I'm a MSI at MD school.

* What I learned the hard way: DON'T overload yourself. I had to go back and repeat a orgo because i screwed up the first time after overloading myself with work and classes. I think it ended up delaying me getting in.

* In my opinion have to consider MCAT prep equivalent to a "course" ... it is probably the single most important thing you can do and have control over. Your GPA will be set already and probably isn't going to budge from undergrad. MCAT is a huge portion of getting an interview. I took a month off from work and did nothing but MCAT prep, and it really helped.

* It is much better in my opinion to have good grades and take an extra year, then have bad grades and end up spending 2-3 years applying.

* I recommend people don't do more then 2 science courses w/ lab at a time.

I know it is frustrating as hell becaues it takes SO long to be admitted to medical school. It is 2-3 years of a horrible battling it out in the trenches ... you really just have to accept it. There is no quick route to medical school, and attempts to make it quicker usually fail.

You have a ton of stuff already to compete with! Young people's brains work better in my opinion, i remember it seemed I had to work so much harder for the same grades.

In my opinion, getting into medical school for the non-trad is all about sacrifice. You will make sacrifices you never believed possible when you started the endeavor.

A couple of Vince Lombardi quotes kept me going:

"Once you agree upon the price you and your family must pay for success, it enables you to ignore the minor hurts, the opponent's pressure, and the temporary failures."

"A man can be as great as he wants to be. If you believe in yourself and have the courage, the determination, the dedication, the competitive drive and if you are willing to sacrifice the little things in life and pay the price for the things that are worthwhile, it can be done."

Just study your ass off and it will be worth it ...

Best of luck!

-Vio

 

[medblue]

great reply Vio!

 

[blee]

I am going to be the voice in favor of going the one-year route, but with qualifications.

When it comes to planning your post-bacc schedule (or, really, any other scholarly pursuit), you need to do two things. First, make sure you have a realistic idea of your limits. Second, make sure you work right up to those limits every day.

We all know that getting into med school is difficult. When it comes to your grades, you will need to show two things: the ability to do well in class, and the ability to carry a relatively heavy course load. During my school year, more than one advisor mentioned the term "academic reserve" to me, essentially the ability to slog it through a heavy pile of work without burning out prematurely. The way to prove this is to take several classes at the same time; on the other hand, if you do poorly in them, you will not really show anyone that you can do well in school, thus detracting from the first objective.

So there's the conundrum: No one will care how much of a workload you have if you only manage a 2.0, but few will really be impressed if you take one course at a time with no other commitments and ace them all.

From an academic standpoint, I firmly believe that the most impressive post-bacc schedule is to take gen chem over the summer, then take bio/orgo/phys during the shcool year. You will technically be taking enough credits to be considered a full-time student. This also means that you SHOULD NOT work at the same time, or only work a schedule reasonable for an undergrad student -- perhaps 10-15 hours per week. You should be completely dedicated to your studies and related ECs. Your family is obviously important to you, so keep them in mind when you decide on where or whether to volunteer/shadow. You should be able to handle these three classes in one semester. (By the way, you should even have time to prepare for the April MCAT on this schedule; if you don't, there's also August.)

And please don't construe this next comment as anything but constructive criticism: If you really can't handle 12 credits (including labs) per semester without other distractions, you should strongly consider whether you will be able to handle the workload when you're a medical student.

If you honestly can't, or if you absolutely must work, then don't set yourself up for failure. The next-best option is going to depend on your work demands and your self-assessment. I've seen people do rather well in this process by working part- or full-time and taking two classes concurrently. This will take more time, obviously, but not so much that you'll forget anything or be taken less than seriously by an adcom.

Other approaches may work, of course, and every situation is different. But before you shell out the money for classes, think about where you're trying to go and what you need to prove.

 

[profstudent]

I've been debating this scheduling question for a while now...should I attempt all the classes in one summer and two semesters as blee suggested, or should I spread things out over two years?

Blee, the very points you make are the ones that I am struggling with. I know that if I do it all in one year I can prove to adcoms that I can successfully handle a rigorous schedule. On the other hand, it almost seems like too much of a risk (I THINK I can handle it, but I won't really know until I'm taking the classes). Spreading the classes over two years (aprox two lab courses a semester instead of three) seems much more feesible. At the same time, I wonder if adding one more lecture and lab wouldn't be so bad...

Although my situation is different from the OP's (I am in my senior year of undergrad and do not have a SO or kids), at this point, I plan on taking gen chem over this summer and seeing how it goes. If that works out well then I will continue with Bio, Orgo, and Physics in the fall.

 

[blee]

My reasoning went something like this: Lab classes or not, we're talking about 12-13 credits. That's actually 3 credits shy of the average semester courseload required in order to graduate on time at most universities. Sure, some of those 15 credits might include a throwaway Basketweaving 101 class, but we're still talking about the bare minimum required to be considered full-time for federal financial aid. And again, medical school is not going to be easier than post-bacc. All of my friends who have either started or already completed med school tell me that the workload is seriously heavy. I figured that if I wasn't going to survive three introductory science courses, then I should re-evaluate my goals anyway.

More importantly, I was reasonably confident that I could handle the work. I did very well in gen chem, and I felt that my efforts would scale easily during the regular semester. I still wasn't 100% sure, but it was worth a shot. It turned out that I had to ratchet my effort up a bit from the summer, but not by a lot.

 

[Phoenix.]

deleted

 

[Phoenix.]

I'm dealing with the same issues. BUT, I'm also juggling the fact that if I take 12 credits a semester, I'll have to pay full tuition (at Loyola in Chicago) instead of "by the credit," and that will cost $13,000 more for those same eight classes! So, my goal is to stay under 12 credits.

This semester, while working full time, I'll just take Chem I, then Bio I first summer session, then double up with Chem II and Bio II for second summer session (which WILL be hell), so that I can just take Physics and Organic Chem over the year. That way I can hopefully work some part time work into my schedule, which will of course include volunteering. AND I really want to be sure not to have a heavy load spring semester next year. From everything I've heard, taking the time to really study for the MCAT can't be understated.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

 

[blee]

Good luck. Be VERY careful with taking two courses in any summer session. Each day will probably feature around 3 hours of lecture, or basically one week's worth of material per day. You will have to make sure you can keep up and study a week's worth of material in two classes every night in order to keep up. Definitely think it over while you go through the first summer session; in my case, I ended up studying at least another three hours every night at home.

 

[viostorm]

We all know that getting into med school is difficult. When it comes to your grades, you will need to show two things: the ability to do well in class, and the ability to carry a relatively heavy course load.

I disagree that you "need to show ability to carry a relatively heavy load". I know specifically at my school interviews are offered based on 1 thing: a mathematical equation that is a combination of MCAT and GPA. If you make the cut ... you get the interview. Unless you have contacts, that is the easiest way for admissions people to sort through 3000+ applications.

It is no different for med students applying to residencies, they have the computer make a cut off at a USMLE score ... if you make it ... you get the interview.

I think you are definitely overanalyzing how much each interviewer goes over the transcript. You may have 15-30 minutes with the person. You can sell yourself, but there is a definite preconception when you walk in the room if the interviewer is looking at 35 MCAT / 3.9 GPA. Note: your SAT score will also be available to them. In 30 minutes they have to look over transcript AND have you answer all the "so if you were stranded on a desert island ... " questions and if you are a competitive student sell their school.

What I am saying is: the final number is more important then how you got there IMO.

It is much more important then:

1) Where you went
2) Course load

People get in after completing pre-reqs at community college! Go where you can get good grades and take the time you need to get them.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

I disagree that you "need to show ability to carry a relatively heavy load". I know specifically at my school interviews are offered based on 1 thing: a mathematical equation that is a combination of MCAT and GPA. If you make the cut ... you get the interview. Unless you have contacts, that is the easiest way for admissions people to sort through 3000+ applications.

It is no different for med students applying to residencies, they have the computer make a cut off at a USMLE score ... if you make it ... you get the interview.

I think you are definitely overanalyzing how much each interviewer goes over the transcript. You may have 15-30 minutes with the person. You can sell yourself, but there is a definite preconception when you walk in the room if the interviewer is looking at 35 MCAT / 3.9 GPA. Note: your SAT score will also be available to them. In 30 minutes they have to look over transcript AND have you answer all the "so if you were stranded on a desert island ... " questions and if you are a competitive student sell their school.

What I am saying is: the final number is more important then how you got there IMO.

It is much more important then:

1) Where you went
2) Course load

People get in after completing pre-reqs at community college! Go where you can get good grades and take the time you need to get them.

Well said.

I would also add that you may see a disparity between DO/MD schools in how they treat your app. Historically, MD schools have a higher cut off for GPA and MCAT than MD schools. Why is this? One reason; They can be. The fact is that 90% of pre meds will be right out of university, no medical experience to speak of and may have never heard of a DO so they aspire to goto MD school. They see shows like "House MD, or ER or any other such" and they are all MD's so that is Doctor to them. Everyone wants to be an MD. With all those apps, you can be highly selective.

DO schools however, (from my own experience), have much more interest in following their "holistic" philosophy during admissions. From my experience with both admissions offices this has been the case. The DO school seems to take into account your whole Hx as well as experience, this is evidenced by how they replace old grades in a class with the new ones.

Im not saying one is better than the other, im just saying its a trend I (and many others) have noticed. In anycase, this gives you another glance into the admissions worlds. I hope it is helpful!

T

 

[blee]

I know as well as anyone that admissions is a numbers game until (and perhaps regardless of) the interview. I've said it several times in this forum. But objectively speaking, I am not a compelling applicant going just by the numbers. 37 MCAT or not, there aren't many undergrads with a 3.0 who are enjoying the kind of success that I am. My GPA is pitiful by any standard, and a full year of undergrad work wasn't enough to make it even within a deviation of the mean GPA of accepted applicants. The MCAT is important, but not so important that adcoms overlooked this.

I recall my interviewer mentioning the fact that I did my pre-reqs concurrently in three out of my five interviews. I was also told of the advantage to doing this by an admissions officer and at least two different pre-med advisors. It made a difference in my application. If I hadn't done it, I am certain I would not have fared this well.

I'm not saying that those who stretch out their post-bacc schedules are doomed, as that's plainly not true; I'm just saying that I believe it to be the best possible route, one that should be followed unless there is no alternative. Many non-trads have no alternative, and that's alright.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

I know as well as anyone that admissions is a numbers game until (and perhaps regardless of) the interview. I've said it several times in this forum. But objectively speaking, I am not a compelling applicant going just by the numbers. 37 MCAT or not, there aren't many undergrads with a 3.0 who are enjoying the kind of success that I am. My GPA is pitiful by any standard, and a full year of undergrad work wasn't enough to make it even within a deviation of the mean GPA of accepted applicants. The MCAT is important, but not so important that adcoms overlooked this.

I recall my interviewer mentioning the fact that I did my pre-reqs concurrently in three out of my five interviews. I was also told of the advantage to doing this by an admissions officer and at least two different pre-med advisors. It made a difference in my application. If I hadn't done it, I am certain I would not have fared this well.

I'm not saying that those who stretch out their post-bacc schedules are doomed, as that's plainly not true; I'm just saying that I believe it to be the best possible route, one that should be followed unless there is no alternative. Many non-trads have no alternative, and that's alright.

well said Blee.

 

[efex101]

I do agree that IF you can handle a full load of 12 crhr/semester to YES do it but you must get A's or close to it...so do not take a huge science load if you end up with mostly B's for that will NOT look good for returning adult students doing damage control. That is when you should take it slow and get A's...most medical schools really do NOT have the time to go through ALL applications with a fine tooth comb like someone posted. Sure it is good to show academic prowess but not at the expense of your GPA. Most folks that graduate within 4 years are NOT taking a lot of science classes, volunteering, shadowing, etc..all through the four years. Most pre-meds that I know of took a little bit more than 4 years but not much (going some summers too). Do what is best for your GPA and if that means taking it slow so be it, now if you start going to class and find yourself with tons of spare time and you are kicking arse then bump it up a notch. What I have seen is a lot of folks crash and burn...specially non-trads anxious to get on the road and finish pre-reqs quickly. This is highly detrimental because now you will not only be doing damage control for "recent" GPA but will have to answer the "why did you take on such a course load w/o knowing your capabilities?" so be careful.

 

[DocteurMarion]

I am a non-trad and am going back to school for my pre-reqs this semester. I need all of them. I basically have it calendared out so that I can matriculate to med school in '08. Based on that plan I am thinking that next year at this time I will be taking Org Chem 2 + lab, bio 2 + lab, and physics 2 + lab. Is that too much for one semester?

Any input is appreciated.

I personnally work full time and never took more than 2 classes + 2labs/semester - And trust me this is plenty of work!

Good Luck to you

 

[CaveatLector]

Excellent and well thought-out responses. Thank you everyone for the time and effort in responding to my question. It has been helpful.

 

[kimmcauliffe]

Depends on you, caveat. Everyone's different and is able to handle it differently. Myself, I work full-time and take a full-time courseload, but understanding that one or the other side may have to give at either time.

Good luck to you!

 

[allover]

im in a similar situation, for dental. was gonna start a new thread but this is close enough. i start my pre reqs spring of 11. the only thing i have left to take are all the sciences as my BS degree takes care of everything else. i had originally planned on taking 7-8 credits (2sciences+,2labs) this way id be done with two semesters of chem,bio, ochem + two other broadly required non lab sciences end of spring 12, then taking DAT and applying in summer 12.

Some people are telling me i should have higher course load and that dental schools would look down on my app if i didnt, but in this thread people are saying the opposite. also, i want to get a part time job but ive been looking for 4 months to no avail and im afraid i wont find anything. if i dont end up getting a paying job would volunteer + shadowing 20 hours or more a week help if in fact 7-8 credits would otherwise be considered not enough? Do regular 4 year majors take 3 scienes + 2 labs their final 2 years? i just want to get it right the first time and im not afraid of hard work or no social life. just a bit stressed out right now trying to plan this.

 

[sharmi]

Here is how I plan to do this.
I am an engineer and have a full time career and a family with 2 small children. Plan to work till I am about to start medical school - can't do w/o the 6 figure salary. I can only take classes over the evenings or weekends.
I took 3 science classes and 2 labs last spring - but it was hectic and I slept little and had little time with the family. The last part hurted - had a sense of guilt and I am not repeating this again - learned my lesson. But I did get A and A+ in all five. Chem 1 was easy. Spent most of my time on Physics 1 and rest on embryology (interesting class - really liked it).

Somehow I try to ensure that I get an A from the beginning of the class - I hate last minute jobs and like to have it all planned - my nature I guess. It totally depends on how rigorous you are about studying from the outset and how good you are with managing your time. Only you can say that and have any kind of control over that. We here can talk about our experiences and you have to come up with a school/work/study plan that works for you. I can study or do my home work only after 10 pm on weekdays or weekends (afternoon or late nights only) - that is my limitation and I know that very well. But I never miss or do bad a home work or a quiz or a test. It also depends upon how comfortable you are with the classes. I am pretty good in numerical stuff, (as I said I am engineer) but have to study/memorize/work harder for the bio stuff. So I try to take a mix and match of numerical and non-numerical courses.

I am taking 2 classes in Summer - expect A+/A in both. One of them is Anatomy - so having to study quite a bit for that. The other is Statistics - that's an easy A+ for me.
I will be slowing down a bit during the fall, taking 2 classes + 2 labs (Chem 2 and Physics 2). Its a conscious decision, as I want to spend some more time with my family.
I will be taking Orgo 1 with lab in Spring and perhaps retaking the MCAT (currently have a 30Q score - took it earlier this year, but then I am from Cali). Will apply next summer and take Calculus (and maybe Micro or Molecular Bio) over the summer. Will take Orgo 2 with lab in the fall as I am completing the secondaries.

I do also volunteer 4 hours every weekend.

Its call time management .... you will surely get better at it after a semester .... and good luck to you!

 

[allover]

thx.

 

[TFS]

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