Question about Dermatology Residencies

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puffy1

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Of all of the dermatologists I've spoken to, the common theme whenever I ask them what kind of stats a med-student needs to get a derm residency is "Junior AOA."

My question is does every person that gets a derm residency part of the AOA membership? Do directors automatically discount your application if you aren't? I understand why derm is so competitive (lifestyle + limited residency numbers), but is AOA and a blockbuster board score the only way to secure it?

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Posted on EZBOARD.com - Dermatology:

to all med students interested in derm
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the following is a LONG post. i put it together for students at my home med school, and it's mostly the stuff i wished i'd had handed down to me. it may be a lot like the application guide that erin puts out (though probably less well organized and less thorough), but i just wanted to put it out there for people. again, these are my opinions, and it was rather quickly put together (probably typos in there)

lastly, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE avoid the way too common question of 'what are my chances if i have AOA, research, etc?'

people will get in with low and high board scores, no research or a ton of publications, etc.
no one can quantify your chances for you. it's like patients with bad cancer that want to know how many months they'll live. you can say what probabilities are, but when you break it down for a particular individual, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY TO KNOW.

as silly as it sounds, the entire residency application process IS, without question, a game, especially for the more competitive fields. because of that, you want to have the most polished, strongest application you can. aside from connections, your application will be the sole determinant of whether or not you are invited for an interview.

so here it is: my advice. best of luck to you all.

(for whatever it's worth, i matched at my number one program and am incredibly grateful, relieved and excited)

Grades- sounds fickle but try to have as many honors as you can. You WILL be put in some programs? ?no? pile, solely because of sub-stellar grades. It?s the truth. It will not kill you if you have some non-honors grades, but there are people to whom this is important. Some of those people will be the reviewers of your application?

USMLE- rock step I. Some places will have cut-offs. It?s impossible to know who has what as their cut off, so do as well as you can. You do not NEED to have taken step II by the time you apply. If you did great on step I, don?t take step II until after you?ve applied. If you didn?t rock step I, take step II early and do well on that. Of course don?t count yourself out, if you don?t, but everything counts.

Letters of Recommendation- probably best to have as many dermatologist writers as possible. ? would be excellent. Big names are better than not. Someone who really knows you and will write good things is better than someone who doesn?t know you at all. I started collecting letters during 3rd year. Get as many as you want. You do not have to use them all. I always phrased the question like this: ?would you feel comfortable writing me a strong letter of recommendation?? Have your curriculum or research advisor go over your letters and rank them for you, assuming you?ve waived your right to read them.

RESEARCH- Do research in dermatology, if you?re seriously considering applying. Working with people ?known? in the field always helps. Try to have stuff published if you can; it?s always better to have something in press or published than to have a manuscript in progress. Publishing can take months even after the paper is finished. This may mean starting work on stuff during 2nd or 3rd year. Present your research at a national conference if you can. Network, get to know people. Again, don?t be a pushy weirdo, just be yourself and meet people from other places. They?ll remember you: ?oh yeah, you were the student at the meeting...'

Away rotations- Do them if you know of specific institutions you?re interested in. These are a good chance to meet other departments, see what you like, see what they?re staff are like, etc. have a meeting with the program director of that residency program and/or the chair of that department. Be yourself and see if you fit in there. Try to do one early in 4th year. This may mean applying for it at the end of 3rd year. Start looking in feb or march of 3rd year for where you might want to do it and contact those institutions/departments by march or april. They will fill very quickly. Then come back for your home rotation in August or September. This will mean that you?ve already done a month of derm, and you can know more, be more comfortable, etc at your home program. Again, this all sounds absurdly fickle, but it IS a game.

Personal statement: Write a good one. My advice: start as early as you can. Jot stuff down about yourself, defining moments, anecdotes that highlight something about you, etc. flesh these out during the course of a year, revisiting every couple of months. It?s MUCH easier this way than trying to get one done quickly in the month before they?re due, and people recognize something that has been thoughtfully polished rather than hastily reviewed and edited. Every sentence counts, be efficient in writing. Should be less than one page. Should be personal, like you?re almost uncomfortable sharing it, because it?s who you are. Share it with family members, close friends, ask them if it paints a picture of YOU.

Things to look for in a program:

General derm: time spent in clinics. Do you have continuity? Do you see your own patients. Do you have a good mix of clinics and other rotations?

Derm surgery: how much do you do? In my opinion doing surgery rotations for a month at a time is better than doing 28 days over the course of one year. It?s easier to get a better handle of concepts or procedures if you are able to repeat them many times over a concentrated time period. Is the learning hands-on, or more observational? You don?t need to be taking mohs layers as a resident. You can do fellowships if you want to do Mohs. You DO want to feel at least comfortable excising most, if not all, lesions.

Dermpath: how much dedicated time is there for this? How much is taught versus left for you to read independently. How do you learn best.

Specialty clinics: some bigger programs have specialty clinics. Like Dr. Smith is a specialist in CTCL or bullous diseases and has 3 dedicated clinics every week. This is a nice way of seeing lots of more ?difficult? patients and learning from experts in the field.

Variety of skin types: disease presents differently in different skin types. If you know you?re want to practice in miami, you want to have seen stuff on hispanic skin. If you?re going to be in North Dakota, it may be find only to have worked on white skin. But residency is a great chance to really see and learn a lot,

VA available: many institutions have VA hospitals associated with them. This is great opportunity for autonomy. Likely, you?ll be left to run clinics by yourself with an attending staff. There will lots of old white guys with skin cancer. This is a great chance for surgical experience for the residents at all the VA derm departments that I saw.

Cosmetics- some institutions don?t do much at all, but, you must face the reality that patients want more and more of this. There?s a lot of money in it and many private practices are doing lots more of it. You at least want to have had exposure to lasers, resurfacing, peels, vein stripping, etc. You can learn a lot of this, ?on the job,? though, once you?re in practice.

Department vs division of IM- not a huge deal, matters more to staff than it does to residents, though it can have something to do with the money allotted to residents: facilities, expense coverage for national meetings, textbooks, etc.

Big vs small- many programs are 2 or 3 people per year. The biggest ones are 6 or 7. Some are only 1 person per year. This is a personal choice.

Dermatology is an incredibly reading-intensive, minutia-oriented residency and specialty. You will see in everyday practice about 10% of the stuff that you need to ?know? for the derm boards. You want a place where you?re going to be able to learn lots.

Try to figure out how you learn best. From organized didactics, or from reading on your own? From staff going over kodachrome sessions, or from residents going over slides with each other.

Didactics/conferences: who teaches and organized these? Does the program have a set curriculum that is revised or is written up from scratch every year by the chief resident?

Friendly staff that you will want as your teachers: in the end, THIS is why you went to medical school, THIS is why you busted your butt in college to get to med school. You have decided that you want to be a dermatologist, and you WILL be reading/learning new things for the rest of your career but THIS is your shot at getting your formal training.

Beware of ?reputation.? This is a common pitfall, in my opinion. There are many ?big name? places with ?overworked? residents who have very little time for the tons of reading that have to be done during residency. Or who don?t really have meaningful personal interactions with their incredibly famous staff.

Finally, you want to be at the place that?s going to provide you with the best experience and the best teaching. In the end, you want the place where you?re going to learn the most and be happiest (this is an intensely personal thing, and location may be exactly the thing that makes you so happy that you?re in the right state of mind to learn from whoever?s teaching)

-by wanttohelp
 
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My good friend graduated from the University of Chicago Derm program and her second year out, she can't get a job!! Apparently, she says the chair in her department writes bland and brief recs for everyone (kinda like a staple rec) and many residents can't even obtain a private practice position. She also said she would not recommend anyone applying there because the reputation of the department is not good in the derm world. There are only 7 dermatologists (one of the smallest departments), 2 of which are about to retire. There is no research, and board pass rates are fair. Faculty personalities are another thing...very tough to get along with. And, she said there have been 4 residents fired over the years for not meeting expectations or not getting a good enough score on the inservice exam! She also said the department is not looked nicely upon by the rest of the hospital because it recently accepted a resident who knew the derm surgeon and offered a large sum of money to the department! So, bribery, abrasiveness, instability and lack of support seems to sum up the U of C derm program. Its no wonder there is a greater number of foreign grads in the program...they can't seem to recruit quality US grads (people just don't rank this program)....Well, that;s my bit for the day.
 
foreign grads at u of c derm?? highly doubt it. even if it's the worse derm program in the country, would still be very competitive.
 
While it is true that the University of Chicago's Derm dept is not known as a strong one,I can assure you that they have no problem filling their few spots with highly qualified applicants.Admission to ANY derm program in the US should be considered a great accomplishment as around 2/3 of US applicants do not match.About 2 IMGs a year do match(out of ~260 openings), and they are often already trained as dermatologists abroad or well published researchers.As far as jobs,there is such a shortage of medical dermatologists in the US that many openings cannot be filled.There was a recent article in a derm magazine urging expansion of residencies to fill manpower requirements.Even with a bland recommendation your friend should find many opportunities with a little effort.
 
don't mean to offend anyone, but i think some of our best and brightest are wasting their high IQ/years of education in derm.
 
Well, I guess the 2 foreign grads/year you quoted end up going to the U of C, because if you look at their roster, which I have, they have a good percentage foreigners. I'm just letting everyone know that if you'd like to be associated with such a program, then rank it highly. But, if you have an option, go for another, stronger derm program. Several residents at the U of C wish they went to other programs (several are my personal friends)-but, they would never tell that to an applicant, b/c if the program director found out, you would be out, as he has done in the past with other residents. I don't see why you would want to go to a program, in this case the U OF C, that has fired residents in the past or is known to take bribes, unless you have no other option.

As far as jobs, my friend hasn't got any yet that are desirable. She might have two options, both in Nevada (not desirable). As far as high IQs=derm, I disagree strongly. The fact of the matter is, and you can do your research on this, the number of derm spots are limited. However, the claiber of students getting into derm is not always very high. In fact, I've seen board scores in the just above passing range. More importantly, the average board scores is not at all impressive. If you want impressive, look to something like ortho or neurosurgery.

P.S. A good friend who did his MD at the Carribean just got into Derm.
 
the average derm matriculant average above 240 on step 1. at my school (a mid-tier US school), between 1-3 get into derm each year, some years none. it's very competitive. if you're coming from the carribean, you better be scoring 260 and above with tons of publications.
 
between 1-3 get in per year and sometimes none because this reflects the level of interest in derm. If no one applies, obvioulsy no ones getting in!!! Just because a couple people from your mid tier school had a 240 or averaged 240, doesn't mean that's what's needed to get in. The overall average is a lot less. The guy from the carribean had no publications and a 208 on Step 1 and 210 on Step 2. You judge for yourself.

Overall, derm is just a cope-out specialty anyway, not deserving of the title, "doctor". Dermatology should be merged with general medicine. It's a poor excuse to say you're a "doctor"...How do you feel when your in a group of real doctors?
 
personally i feel derms are sell-outs, but that's beside the point.

there is no lack of interest in derm at my school or at any other US school. the fact is only about 1/3 of an alreadly highly select group of applicants match. it's just not believable that an FMG with a step 1 score of 208 and no research got into derm. anyone who thinks derm is easy to match is just ignorant.
 
Of course economic factors drives much demand for the few residency slots just as it does for Rads,Ortho,ENT Plastics,Urology etc. The popularity includes an ability to earn an income above that of primary care specialties coupled with regular working hours and little night or weekend hassles as well the ability to combine office surgery,and medical dermatology in a wide spectrum of adult and pediatric patients.The ability to escape the red tape and control of HMOs by performing cosmetic procedures including lasers,collagen,botox etc.For those interested in pathology and surgery, dermpath and MOHs surgery fellowships are available and highly lucrative.Many immunological,infectious and neoplastic diseases including cutaneous lymphomas,bullous diseases,melanoma are treated by dermatologists.While you may not think this stuff is interesting..... many of us do!
 
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ny skindoc,
I can't agree with you more. One of my best friends just matched in Derm, and I can tell you that they are at the top of their class, and find derm to be just as, or more, interesting all the other specialties.

Sure, the nice hours/lifestyle comes into play, but as was pointed out, ANY specialty can be done for lifestyle. There are plenty of internists who still work 4 days a week with little call. Radi-Holiday isn't a "sell-out" as you call it? Some radiologists get 12 weeks of vacation!! ENT, plastics, ortho are all "cop-out" specialties. Unless you are a general surgeon working 120 hours a week, you aren't a real doctor. Whatever.
 
i think one of the strong points of medicine is the wide variety of specialties. there is something for almost everyone. everyone can weigh all the factors like type of care, level of patient contact, level of "drama", lifestyle, pay, etc and then choose the specialty that is the best fit for them. i think everyone knows that derm is competitive because it has great lifestyle and great income potential. any dermatologist that tells you that those two things were not a huge part of his/her decision is either 1. lying or 2. the extreme rare exception to the rule. other people find treating acutely life threatening problems or surgery or other factors more important than lifestyle and pay or other things. they wont choose derm. but one decision is no better than another. to each his own.
 
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