Question about MD/DO merger

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Dantrolene FC

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Now that ERAS has opened, I have been researching residency programs and came across the OK State anesthesiology program, a DO program. Their website has a list of requirements for "non-DO applicants" which looks like they require you to have 60 hours of OMM training and a DO letter of recommendation. Are DO programs allowed to have these requirements for MD students? It was my assumption that they wouldn't MD students wouldn't have to jump through these hoops with the new ACGME merger. If they are allowed to do this, then it seems like the merger was kinda useless.

Here is their list of requirements for non-DO applicants which can be found at Admissions | Anesthesiology Residency | OSU Center for Health Sciences - Oklahoma State University :

20 Business Days Prior to the Match the Applicant Must Have Ready for Submission:
  1. 60 hours of OSU-COM’s years one and two to include; OMM I, II, III, and IV. A Teaching Guide for Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine or lectures may be used to direct the lab portion. Certificate of completion will be provided. OMM education from outside institutions will not be accepted.
  2. Verification that candidate completed the CORRE examination with a minimum passing score at or above the 10th percentile.
  3. Letter of recommendation from a D.O. with an active practice to be included with residency application. (letter must indicate that applicant understands osteopathic philosophy)
During Residency:
  1. Complete 60 hours of OPP Continuing Medical Education, approved by the OSU-CHS/OMECO, achieved through any of the following: CME courses, didactics, elective rotations, etc. focusing on clinical application.
  2. Successfully pass an OMM basic skills competency practical examination, administered by OSU-CHS faculty, prior to PGY-2.
  3. Satisfactorily progress through the Osteopathic Recognition Milestones during residency.
 
Well if they have the requirements I’m sure they’re allowed to...it would be pretty bold to be blatantly advertising breaking rules
 
Dantrolene FC said:
Are DO programs allowed to have these requirements for MD students?
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Yes.
Lawper said:
I'm a little lost as to how OMM is useful in anesthesia
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It's not.

The residency programs at OK State all have a mandate from the school to have osteopathic recognition. So yes, with osteopathic recognition they are absolutely allowed to do this. It's not a specialty specific thing, it's a mandate from the school for every accredited residency the school runs. It's essentially a way to ensure match capabilities of their own students, which I honestly have zero problems with. OK State is one of the most MD-like DO schools that exists along with MSU, PCOM, and Ohio.
 
The Oklahoma State University Anesthesiology Program is one of the 2 Anesthesiology programs in the country that has "Osteopathic Recognition". What that means is that they can accept only DO candidates or MD candidates with extensive OMM training. It is one of the negotiated items by the AOA to have some protected spots for DOs in competitive residencies. This allows for reverse-discrimination toward MDs. But it backfired since most ex-DO programs don't want to be bothered with another layer of the accreditation or recognition.. whatever they call it.
 
Dantrolene FC said:
Now that ERAS has opened, I have been researching residency programs and came across the OK State anesthesiology program, a DO program. Their website has a list of requirements for "non-DO applicants" which looks like they require you to have 60 hours of OMM training and a DO letter of recommendation. Are DO programs allowed to have these requirements for MD students? It was my assumption that they wouldn't MD students wouldn't have to jump through these hoops with the new ACGME merger. If they are allowed to do this, then it seems like the merger was kinda useless.

Here is their list of requirements for non-DO applicants which can be found at Admissions | Anesthesiology Residency | OSU Center for Health Sciences - Oklahoma State University :

20 Business Days Prior to the Match the Applicant Must Have Ready for Submission:
  1. 60 hours of OSU-COM’s years one and two to include; OMM I, II, III, and IV. A Teaching Guide for Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine or lectures may be used to direct the lab portion. Certificate of completion will be provided. OMM education from outside institutions will not be accepted.
  2. Verification that candidate completed the CORRE examination with a minimum passing score at or above the 10th percentile.
  3. Letter of recommendation from a D.O. with an active practice to be included with residency application. (letter must indicate that applicant understands osteopathic philosophy)
During Residency:
  1. Complete 60 hours of OPP Continuing Medical Education, approved by the OSU-CHS/OMECO, achieved through any of the following: CME courses, didactics, elective rotations, etc. focusing on clinical application.
  2. Successfully pass an OMM basic skills competency practical examination, administered by OSU-CHS faculty, prior to PGY-2.
  3. Satisfactorily progress through the Osteopathic Recognition Milestones during residency.
Click to expand...
They'll have those requirements as long as NYU IM and their ilk refuse to consider ranking and interviewing DOs.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Yes.


It's not.

The residency programs at OK State all have a mandate from the school to have osteopathic recognition. So yes, with osteopathic recognition they are absolutely allowed to do this. It's not a specialty specific thing, it's a mandate from the school for every accredited residency the school runs. It's essentially a way to ensure match capabilities of their own students, which I honestly have zero problems with. OK State is one of the most MD-like DO schools that exists along with MSU, PCOM, and Ohio.
Click to expand...

are they going to maintain the osteopathic recognition in the future? or is this something temporary?
 
Goro said:
That's not the point
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I'm not sure if the reverse discrimination aspect of DO programs is something to be concerned about especially since it's apparently rare among ex-AOA programs (as noted below):

Solodyn said:
The Oklahoma State University Anesthesiology Program is one of the 2 Anesthesiology programs in the country that has "Osteopathic Recognition". What that means is that they can accept only DO candidates or MD candidates with extensive OMM training. It is one of the negotiated items by the AOA to have some protected spots for DOs in competitive residencies. This allows for reverse-discrimination toward MDs. But it backfired since most ex-DO programs don't want to be bothered with another layer of the accreditation or recognition.. whatever they call it.
Click to expand...

Top programs like NYU can do whatever they want since they know they'll get a lot of applications from strong applicants and can afford to be selective.
 
Neopolymath said:
Why are you looking at (former) AOA anesthesia programs anyways? Historically, it is one of the only specialties in which going to an AOA residency had an effect on getting attending jobs.
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When i was browsing programs on ERAS, it showed all programs by default. You can select the option to sort those out with osteopathic recognition, but at this point, it shows all programs so it is reasonable OP looked at those programs... IMO
 
Dr. Rafiki said:
Sorry I'm just a little mind-blown that OP isn't a troll.... he/she's actually trying to cry me a river about the merger being unfair towards MD students?!?!?!?
Click to expand...

If there's a merger, it should go both ways.

It's not a secret that DO schools are now created to take students who aren't competitive for MD schools. No offense... I mean, the corollary is that I'm sure that plenty of DO students had a hell of a lot more fun in college than I did. But college =/= medical school - I have nothing against DOs, and I have no intention of discriminating against DOs if/when I have a say.

Regardless, if MD residencies are opening up as a rule to DOs, DO residencies should open up as a rule to MDs.
 
Lawper said:
I'm not sure if the reverse discrimination aspect of DO programs is something to be concerned about especially since it's apparently rare among ex-AOA programs (as noted below):



Top programs like NYU can do whatever they want since they know they'll get a lot of applications from strong applicants and can afford to be selective.
Click to expand...
Sheesh! My point is not about influencing NYU, it's about protecting one's turf, as Grey pointed out
 
radsisrad said:
If there's a merger, it should go both ways.

It's not a secret that DO schools are now created to take students who aren't competitive for MD schools. No offense... I mean, the corollary is that I'm sure that plenty of DO students had a hell of a lot more fun in college than I did. But college =/= medical school - I have nothing against DOs, and I have no intention of discriminating against DOs if/when I have a say.

Regardless, if MD residencies are opening up as a rule to DOs, DO residencies should open up as a rule to MDs.
Click to expand...

While I actually agree with the point behind this statement:

MD residencies have always (or at least for as long as I’m aware) been open to DOs.

DO residencies until very recently were only available to DOs.

The merger opened up the vast, vast majority of DO programs to MDs. Including the Oklahoma State ones. But the ones like the in the OP are dumb and have some extra requirements.

This is not the point, but coming from a DO: if a program cares enough about OMM to integrate it into requirements...you don’t want to be there.
 
DrWhozits said:
While I actually agree with the point behind this statement:

MD residencies have always (or at least for as long as I’m aware) been open to DOs.

DO residencies until very recently were only available to DOs.

The merger opened up the vast, vast majority of DO programs to MDs. Including the Oklahoma State ones. But the ones like the in the OP are dumb and have some extra requirements.

This is not the point, but coming from a DO: if a program cares enough about OMM to integrate it into requirements...you don’t want to be there.
Click to expand...
There are still many residencies and universities that will not allow a DO to rotate there for away rotations. Period. There are more still that charge fees 10x what they charge MDs. Sure the spots are 'open' to DOs, just like OK Sts are, but they aren't really.

This nonsense goes both ways and will for the foreseeable future. Its the nature of the beast. Just because of the merger doesn't mean some prestige crazed PD is going to start actually considering everyone
 
For competitive specialties such as dermatology, allopathic students are seeking out ex-DO programs as new opportunities. The merger added 25 new ACGME derm programs totaling about 40 new derm residency positions not previously available to USMD and IMGs before.

There was a recent DO Program Directors Meeting at the American Osteopathic College of Dermatology discussing and encouraging the PDs to seek osteopathic recognition in order to protect some of these derm spots for DOs.
 
mrbreakfast said:
I would wonder how many allopathic students actually apply to former osteopathic residency programs.
Click to expand...

Location plays a huge role here. If an MD student doesn't care about program prestige and wants to be in a particular location, opening up the osteopathic residency landscape redounds to that student's benefit.
 
radsisrad said:
Location plays a huge role here. If an MD student doesn't care about program prestige and wants to be in a particular location, opening up the osteopathic residency landscape redounds to that student's benefit.
Click to expand...

Sure, following OP's example, if a student absolutely wanted to be in Oklahoma for anesthesia residency, then OK State would make sense. That's a good example, because according to doximity, it's one of only two programs in the state.

I am curious how often that actually happens, though; how often is a DO program a major contributor to the residency spots in a state, or an area in a state? Are students considering former osteopathic programs at, above, or below the level of decent community programs? I have been told PCOM, Ohio UCOM, OKSCOM, and MSU are the top DO programs, but there are a ton of allopathic programs in Philly, Ohio, and Michigan - would an allopathic student rank those programs for location? I'm not asking for hypotheticals, but wondering if we can get some actual allopathic students' thoughts. Just out of personal curiosity.
 
mrbreakfast said:
Sure, following OP's example, if a student absolutely wanted to be in Oklahoma for anesthesia residency, then OK State would make sense. That's a good example, because according to doximity, it's one of only two programs in the state.

I am curious how often that actually happens, though; how often is a DO program a major contributor to the residency spots in a state, or an area in a state? Are students considering former osteopathic programs at, above, or below the level of decent community programs? I have been told PCOM, Ohio UCOM, OKSCOM, and MSU are the top DO programs, but there are a ton of allopathic programs in Philly, Ohio, and Michigan - would an allopathic student rank those programs for location? I'm not asking for hypotheticals, but wondering if we can get some actual allopathic students' thoughts. Just out of personal curiosity.
Click to expand...


With those requirements, I doubt any decent applicants from MD schools will bother to apply to Oklahoma State. Why would they if they have other options? If an MD applicant is desperate and has red flags, they might apply in order to match the specialty. I’ve never even heard of the program until this post. In the end the program is only hurting itself by reducing its own applicant pool. Applicants won’t be evaluating the program based on the merits of the program itself. Even if they have the best training in the world, it won’t matter. It will be considered an odd and undesirable outlier by the vast majority of applicants.
 
Last edited:
nimbus said:
With those requirements, I doubt any decent applicants from MD schools will bother to apply to Oklahoma State. Why would they if they have other options? If an MD applicant is desperate and has red flags, they might apply in order to match the specialty. I’ve never even heard of the program until this post. In the end the program is only hurting itself by reducing its own applicant pool. Applicants won’t be evaluating the program based on the merits of the program itself. Even if they have the best training in the world, it won’t matter. It will be considered an odd and undesirable outlier by the vast majority of applicants.
Click to expand...
The purpose of Ok states residency programs isn't to expand the application pool and become a top tier program. It's to train osteopathic, and more specifically, Ok state grads.

People on this thread are way overreacting to the reality of the situation. If you look at ERAS and sort by osteopathic distinction, you'll notice that only a handful of programs (less in some cases) maintain that distinction in any given specialty. Meaning that 80-90% of former AOA programs are accepting MDs this year.
 
Fair's fair. My institution doesn't interview or rank DOs at all - and this is in a very DO-friendly field (EM). If traditionally osteopathic residencies want to do the same thing I don't think it's unreasonable.

If you're a USMD trying to squeeze your way into a traditionally DO residency you're probably a bottom tier applicant and should be seriously considering another specialty. Trying to fight DOs for the handful of spots they reliably have is just poor sportsmanship.
 
Lexdiamondz said:
Fair's fair. My institution doesn't interview or rank DOs at all - and this is in a very DO-friendly field (EM). If traditionally osteopathic residencies want to do the same thing I don't think it's unreasonable.

If you're a USMD trying to squeeze your way into a traditionally DO residency you're probably a bottom tier applicant and should be seriously considering another specialty. Trying to fight DOs for the handful of spots they reliably have is just poor sportsmanship.
Click to expand...

Good point. This makes me think the biggest losers here are IMGs
 
Just to clarify stuff.

Cryc_to_the_point said:
That sounds ridiculous, but I'll point out that officially or not we're over here taking two sets of boards so color me unimpressed with the "hoops."
Click to expand...

I agree with you that having to take both COMLEX and USMLE to remain competitive sucks. However, this is due to medical school and licensing issues, not the residency merger which is the topic of my post.

If we had an MD/DO medical school merger, then everyone could only take the USMLE only, but it seems like this will not be happening anytime soon. I believe there would be pushback from both sides if there were to be discussions of an MD/DO medical school merger.

Dr. Rafiki said:
Sorry I'm just a little mind-blown that OP isn't a troll.... he/she's actually trying to cry me a river about the merger being unfair towards MD students?!?!?!?
Click to expand...

I never said the OMM requirements were unfair toward MD students. I just said it seems like it defeats the purpose of having an MD/DO merger for residency. I was under the assumption, which was apparently wrong, that there wouldn't be MD or DO residencies anymore; instead, I thought there would just be physician residencies. If they require OMM training, then it's a de facto DO program. Once again, this was a poor assumption on my part.

Lexdiamondz said:
Fair's fair. My institution doesn't interview or rank DOs at all - and this is in a very DO-friendly field (EM). If traditionally osteopathic residencies want to do the same thing I don't think it's unreasonable.

If you're a USMD trying to squeeze your way into a traditionally DO residency you're probably a bottom tier applicant and should be seriously considering another specialty. Trying to fight DOs for the handful of spots they reliably have is just poor sportsmanship.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to "squeeze" my way into a traditionally DO program. I'm not even planning on applying to OK State. I just didn't realize it was a DO program until I read the requirements, and I was surprised they are allowed to have those requirements.

And no, I'm not a bottom tier applicant.

Lawper said:
Good point. This makes me think the biggest losers here are IMGs
Click to expand...

I actually think the biggest losers with the merger will be the DO applicants. DO's used to have DO programs reserved specifically for them in addition to the MD programs they could apply to. Now, the merger has opened the DO programs up to a lot of IMG applicants, thus adding to the competition.
 
Dantrolene FC said:
I'm not trying to "squeeze" my way into a traditionally DO program. I'm not even planning on applying to OK State. I just didn't realize it was a DO program until I read the requirements, and I was surprised they are allowed to have those requirements.

And no, I'm not a bottom tier applicant.
Click to expand...


So then why do you care? All of this seems like a complete non-issue.
 
Dantrolene FC said:
I actually think the biggest losers with the merger will be the DO applicants. DO's used to have DO programs reserved specifically for them in addition to the MD programs they could apply to. Now, the merger has opened the DO programs up to a lot of IMG applicants, thus adding to the competition.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure because of various issues (like visa requirements) and even without osteopathic recognition, these programs will still favor DO students because they're a known product based on historical trends. Also US programs in general have no way to interpret foreign clinical grades and letters so having a hard time seeing how the merger will help IMGs
 
Lawper said:
I'm not sure because of various issues (like visa requirements) and even without osteopathic recognition, these programs will still favor DO students because they're a known product based on historical trends. Also US programs in general have no way to interpret foreign clinical grades and letters so having a hard time seeing how the merger will help IMGs
Click to expand...
I agree with what you said. I don't think it will have a major effect, but it will have some effect. I mean, there's no way the merger hurt IMG's. The merger has opened up new programs for them to apply to.
 
The biggest winners of the merger are non-US MDs, particularly Caribbean students. Based on what I've read, the old AOA match wasn't coming close to filling, and the Caribbean schools basically see those formerly unfilled spots as all theirs.
 
mrbreakfast said:
The biggest winners of the merger are non-US MDs, particularly Caribbean students. Based on what I've read, the old AOA match wasn't coming close to filling, and the Caribbean schools basically see those formerly unfilled spots as all theirs.
Click to expand...
But that could also go to unmatched USMDs. They’re still at the bottom overall I think. But instead of 55% match it might hit 60%. Still ain’t worth it
 
Lawper said:
are they going to maintain the osteopathic recognition in the future? or is this something temporary?
Click to expand...

It's permanent. It's a designation given by the ACGME to programs that apply for it. There are even some traditional MD primary care residencies that actually applied for it.
mrbreakfast said:
I am curious how often that actually happens, though; how often is a DO program a major contributor to the residency spots in a state, or an area in a state?
Click to expand...

In the case of Oklahoma the DO programs provide a huge number of physicians for the state. Per the numbers OSU residency grads are much more likely to stay in state after residency than OU grads are, hence the reason the school is protecting their residency spots for their grads.
Dantrolene FC said:
The merger has opened up new programs for them to apply to.
Click to expand...

Sure the PC residencies in the middle of nowhere that rarely ever filled. The competitive DO spots for the most part won't really consider IMGs.

Everyone in this thread is overreacting lol. The OSU system exists for a very specific purpose, to train OSU medical students so they can be physicians for the state of Oklahoma. This is no different than the very mission specific health systems affiliated with more than a handful MD schools.

nimbus said:
In the end the program is only hurting itself by reducing its own applicant pool.
Click to expand...

And they literally don't care. They exist to provide a few anesthesiologists for the state of Oklahoma each year, and they heavily draw from the OSU medical student pool and would do this regardless of the OMM requirement.
 
mrbreakfast said:
The biggest winners of the merger are non-US MDs, particularly Caribbean students. Based on what I've read, the old AOA match wasn't coming close to filling, and the Caribbean schools basically see those formerly unfilled spots as all theirs.
Click to expand...
True dat. All those non-US MDs now have even more obscure family med programs in rural America to apply to. Those are the places that weren't filling. And I would add that many of those programs that weren't filling every year probably didn't have the resources to meet ACGME requirements and closed this year anyway.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
OK State is one of the most MD-like DO schools that exists along with MSU, PCOM, and Ohio.
Click to expand...

It seems like it since they require OMM as part of their anesthesia training.

I bet they find the aquamarine colored quartz is better than the pink quartz for operative hypotension. I mean everyone knows the pink quartz are best to stop operative bleeding...
 
Instatewaiter said:
It seems like it since they require OMM as part of their anesthesia training.

I bet they find the aquamarine colored quartz is better than the pink quartz for operative hypotension. I mean everyone knows the pink quartz are best to stop operative bleeding...
Click to expand...
As mentioned before they have osteopathic recognition. All residencies with osteopathic recognition require OMM, and they did that to protect those residency spots for their own students. But that doesn't mean it's not one of the best DO schools out there.
 
radsisrad said:
If there's a merger, it should go both ways.

It's not a secret that DO schools are now created to take students who aren't competitive for MD schools. No offense... I mean, the corollary is that I'm sure that plenty of DO students had a hell of a lot more fun in college than I did. But college =/= medical school - I have nothing against DOs, and I have no intention of discriminating against DOs if/when I have a say.

Regardless, if MD residencies are opening up as a rule to DOs, DO residencies should open up as a rule to MDs.
Click to expand...

I don't understand what you're complaining about? It does go both ways. DO residencies are open to MDs. They just have to do 60 hours of OMM for a select few residencies, just as DOs have to take the USMLE to get in to a large number of MD residencies.
 
Mass Effect said:
I don't understand what you're complaining about? It does go both ways. DO residencies are open to MDs. They just have to do 60 hours of OMM for a select few residencies, just as DOs have to take the USMLE to get in to a large number of MD residencies.
Click to expand...

Where did I complain?
 
Instatewaiter said:
It seems like it since they require OMM as part of their anesthesia training.

I bet they find the aquamarine colored quartz is better than the pink quartz for operative hypotension. I mean everyone knows the pink quartz are best to stop operative bleeding...
Click to expand...

Reading must be hard, unless you intentionally skipped the entire part where I explain it's a mandate from the school that every residency program they support has to comply with. Ortho? OMM. ENT? OMM. General surgery? OMM. These specialty programs do the bare minimum to comply with the osteopathic recognition requirement and then ignore it for 99% of residency. The school has that requirement because they created the residency programs to train their own grads, the requirement offers even more protection in that regard. Is it kinda dumb? Sure, but it's not hard to see why they did it.

Yes, OSU is run very similarly to state MD schools.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Reading must be hard, unless you intentionally skipped the entire part where I explain it's a mandate from the school that every residency program they support has to comply with. Ortho? OMM. ENT? OMM. General surgery? OMM. These specialty programs do the bare minimum to comply with the osteopathic recognition requirement and then ignore it for 99% of residency. The school has that requirement because they created the residency programs to train their own grads, the requirement offers even more protection in that regard. Is it kinda dumb? Sure, but it's not hard to see why they did it.

Yes, OSU is run very similarly to state MD schools.
Click to expand...
MD program takes mediocre grads from it's own program and literally makes spots for people who didn't match a prelim = good program. DO program does same thing with different rules= **** off that's lame. Same people complaining wouldn't even consider applying to these AOA programs if they weren't **** applicants anyways because they would turn their noses up at it.
 
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