Question about overnight personality changes in gurus

[birchswing]

I am interested in studying (that is learning about, not following) NRMs (new religious movements). Gurus (even though they don't like to be called that) like Byron Katie and Ekchart Tolle have been somewhat popular in advancing what seem like secular self-help techniques, though they each have a somewhat supernatural (or at least unexplained) origins story. I also find it interesting that they both also both slightly changed their names after their transformations.

This is Eckhard Tolle's story:

"I couldn’t live with myself any longer. And in this a question arose without an answer: who is the ‘I’ that cannot live with the self? What is the self? I felt drawn into a void! I didn’t know at the time that what really happened was the mind-made self, with its heaviness, its problems, that lives between the unsatisfying past and the fearful future, collapsed. It dissolved. The next morning I woke up and everything was so peaceful. The peace was there because there was no self. Just a sense of presence or “beingness,” just observing and watching."​

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckhart_Tolle#Inner_transformation

This is Byron Katie's:

"Yeah. I was very suicidal, very depressed. Agoraphobic. Paranoid. Really pretty hopeless. Just obsessing the suicide. Many years. So I went to this halfway house and…the women were so afraid of me that I was put in an attic — that was the only way I could stay. They put me in an attic up above. And I slept on the floor in there. And one morning I was asleep on the floor and I felt this thing crawl over my foot and I looked down and it was a cockroach. I opened my eyes and… [pause] what was born was not me…and, the way I tell it is…she rose, she walked, she apparently talked. She was delighted. It is so ecstatic to be born and not born. It sees, and sees everything, without a concept. It's amazing."​

Source: http://realization.org/p/byron-kati...interview/massad.byron-katie-interview.1.html

I find many things about each of their movements (for lack of a better term) fascinating. In each case, both suddenly were transformed, yet each teaches people how achieve that same transformation through conscious effort. And while this is just my personal gut-feeling, I don't think either is bull****ting. Having read a good deal about Byron Katie in particular, and especially having read a good deal from her detractors, she seems like a person who truly is unique in her psychological make-up. Now she's also obviously a good saleswoman!

But I do wonder: Is there such a thing as psychosis where a person is suddenly tranquil and it is lasting? Could these people have had strokes? Because the one thing I find in watching videos of Byron Katie, for example, is that none of her flock, in spite of doing "The Work," ever become like she is. It seems that it helps some and not others, but none of them attain that state she says she is in. And whether or not you can take her word for it, she certainly seems to be in a different state.

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[shan564]

But I do wonder: Is there such a thing as psychosis where a person is suddenly tranquil and it is lasting?

Unless that transformation was witnessed, I think schizophrenia is probably more likely than a stroke. I've had plenty of schizophrenic patients tell me that there was a moment when they had a realization (which is delusional, of course) that changed everything. They also often develop delusions to fill in the holes in their overall delusional system, so if you ask them why they are different now, they might often report retrospectively that something suddenly changed at some point in time.
But yeah, there are also plenty of strokes and autoimmune encephalitides that could cause that too.

 

[Ceke2002]

As someone who does follow a sort of newish sort of NRM (not sure if a spiritual belief system that developed in the 1930s could be considered NRM or not), and which doesn't charge up to $5000 a course, I think the less I say about people like Byron Katie the better. Words like charlatan and manipulative con artist do come to mind though.

Edited to add: I've experienced states of spiritual ecstasy and that feeling of ultimate connection/tranquility during rituals (particularly if I'm doing trance work). But there is no way in hell someone could hope to maintain that state permanently and still function on a day to day basis. Anyone who is claiming otherwise (that they're walking around with this perpetual spiritual awakening/connectedness thing going on) is either seriously off tap, or full of it.

 

[birchswing]

Unless that transformation was witnessed, I think schizophrenia is probably more likely than a stroke. I've had plenty of schizophrenic patients tell me that there was a moment when they had a realization (which is delusional, of course) that changed everything. They also often develop delusions to fill in the holes in their overall delusional system, so if you ask them why they are different now, they might often report retrospectively that something suddenly changed at some point in time.
But yeah, there are also plenty of strokes and autoimmune encephalitides that could cause that too.

Very interesting. I've heard people with schizophrenia can be very high-functioning. Byron Katie and Eckhart Tolle certainly seem functional and content--not that I'm suggesting they have schizophrenia. I only brought up the question because each of their origins stories are fairly murky and similar, and they each teach very similar things. But I do suppose it's possible that an alteration of the brain could allow you to see life more clearly in some way. Neither of these people strike me as having new wisdom never before discovered, but the way they pervasively experience this dissociated state and can easily show people how the beliefs are lived makes it very accessible. They also use sort of unique, mind-bending language very cleverly ("The future I see now is the only future I will ever see."). I remember reading the first page of Eckhart Tolle's first book many (The Power of Now), many years ago. I have anxiety, and my grandmother sent it to me because she thought it would help. I had a panicky feeling reading it. I could tell it was very powerful. And maybe for a busy business executive it's good to be able to check-out for a few minutes. But for someone with anxiety, a state of dissociation can be quite frightening.

But it interesting to ponder the possible benefits of a select few people experiencing some brain alteration. I've often wondered whether the religious leaders of the past, such as those having visions of Jesus or Jesus himself were in an altered state. I remember Steve Jobs saying that taking LSD was one of the most important experience of his life. He's also someone who seemed to succeed because of and not in spite of what from the outside looks like a psychiatric condition (he appeared a bit anti-social in some of his behavior).

As someone who does follow a sort of newish sort of NRM (not sure if a spiritual belief system that developed in the 1930s could be considered NRM or not), and which doesn't charge up to $5000 a course, I think the less I say about people like Byron Katie the better. Words like charlatan and manipulative con artist do come to mind though.

Edited to add: I've experienced states of spiritual ecstasy and that feeling of ultimate connection/tranquility during rituals (particularly if I'm doing trance work). But there is no way in hell someone could hope to maintain that state permanently and still function on a day to day basis. Anyone who is claiming otherwise (that they're walking around with this perpetual spiritual awakening/connectedness thing going on) is either seriously off tap, or full of it.

I agree about the maintaining it. That's the part to me that is different from these gurus and the people who follow them. I actually think both of them teach valuable things for stressful moments. But for a lifetime, I'm not sure why you would want to detach entirely from the human narrative or how you could--which is why I wondered if they themselves possibly experienced some organic brain change. As to whether seriously off-tap or full of it, for some reason, I'm inclined to believe the former--not sure why. Maybe I'm easily hypnotized by charismatic people. No risk of me going to a Byron Katie school, though. Those do sound not so great, especially since I've heard severely mentally ill people go in search of help. Her materials online seem innocuous to me, but with people in need of help, there's always that drive to go farther with something.

 

[whopper]

First, this entire story (ies) could be a load of BS.
Second, if they aren't BS, the person's depression possibly wasn't that bad. Thing about severe depression is layman don't know what it is. Anyone experiencing depression is going to think it's severe when you don't have a context to know what is severe vs moderate vs minor.
Third, the person could've been experiencing borderline PD, where one is suicidal, depressed (though not in an Axis I clinical sense), and sometimes a single event could make the person start to overcome it. It's rare but it can happen. The person doesn't literally become cured of borderline PD instantly but they person does come to a realization that they are their own worst enemy and makes a decision to change it and the realization could happen in an instant.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I think the phenomenon of the Spiritual Awakening producing change, often enduring and life-changing, is a fairly common theme in a wide range of settings, secular and religious. Some have even suggested that what AA calls a Spiritual Awakening, what Buddhism calls Enlightenment, what Christianity calls Conversion, what a secular leader calls inspiration, are all pretty much the same thing--and we might even speed the process along in the brain with judicious application of hallucinogens in a controlled environment. This may be what we're already touching on with ketamine.

 

[whopper]

OT: I used to work at a place that is now offering Ketamine, and the folks there are concerned that giving Ketamine will do everything we hope it will, but there lies the problem. Suicidal person takes Ketamine, then a few days later they're suicidal again and want it again, then they come back again and want it again.

If the person's suicidal due to drug-withdrawal or cluster B PDs, that's where the staff members are particularly fearful that giving Ketamine could make the person an unintended frequent flyer who may have even been better of had they never got the Ketamine in the first place because the person will see the Ketamine as the long-term treatment instead of other methods such as sobriety and/or DBT therapy.

Add to the problem, one of the study methods is to give a person in a PES that alleges to be suicidal $50 to be part of the study. This won't exactly weed out cluster Bs or drug abusers.

A study could show this stuff works but I'd be just as interested in seeing the long-term effects of Ketamine treatment. Give a high dose opioid to someone suicidal, I bet you the data will likely show it made them feel better, but as we can all blatantly see, that ain't exactly good treatment. Did ketamine make things better or worse for the patient over the long-run?

 

[Bartelby]

A very interesting observation, and when I heard Eckhart Tolle's story back before medical school it struck me as kind of stroke-like as well. It still does. Whatever the exact nature of his "awakening" it feels a lot like a neurological event. It didn't come from disciplined study or anything, it appears to have just happened to him overnight (I think while he was sleeping, correct?). I have never heard of any neurological process or target within the brain that could produce such effects via sudden damage but it wouldn't surprise me if there is a rare and subtle disruption that has occurred in people like Eckhart Tolle that allows significantly decreased anxiety and increased pleasurable immersion in life. Of course that's all speculation and I have no evidence to back it up.

With regard to his possibly having suddenly gotten schizophrenia or another mental illness with psychotic features, I think that's unlikely. Even though we only really have syndromal definitions of mental illness at this point (rather than biomarkers and clear pathophysiology) there is at least a syndrome. Eckhard Tolle does not really exhibit most of the accompanying symptoms that would be expected for a mania or for a chronic psychotic state, at least from what I have seen of him. This is based only on reading some of what he has written and seeing him briefly on TV (a few minutes) so clearly I haven't evaluated him, but he just doesn't come across as having a defined mental illness.

With regard to faking, it's always possible (and the motive is there) but I think it's quite possible that he did have some sort of transformative change in mindset as well. He does not come across as blatantly false.

OPD gives some interesting thoughts above; however, being quite familiar with evangelical Christian conversion stories myself the quality is entirely different in my experience. People have a clear narrative of "I was lost and then I was found," usually via the love and support of a church community, and it makes sense on a commonsense level. It's typically not waking up one morning for basically no reason at all, not having taken any action on their own part, not having been urged by others to take action, and suddenly having an entirely changed outlook on life. Still, I think these conversion moments should be studied and better understood. Imagine if we could use them in some positive way!

 

[nitemagi]

Look up kundalini experience. It's believed to be a manifestation of yoga practice (meditation, etc), can happen spontaneously, is tied to "awakening," and can cause psychosis and many other changes (including personality). It's mentioned indirectly in the DSM as a culture-bound syndrome (with Qi-Gong). Lee Sanella, a psychiatrist, wrote a nice little book on this, discussing it as something to be recognized as a natural phenomenon that we should recognize and not necessarily pathologize, nor make religious necessarily.

 

[Ceke2002]

Look up kundalini experience. It's believed to be a manifestation of yoga practice (meditation, etc), can happen spontaneously, is tied to "awakening," and can cause psychosis and many other changes (including personality). It's mentioned indirectly in the DSM as a culture-bound syndrome (with Qi-Gong). Lee Sanella, a psychiatrist, wrote a nice little book on this, discussing it as something to be recognized as a natural phenomenon that we should recognize and not necessarily pathologize, nor make religious necessarily.

We don't necessarily refer to it as Kundalini, or Qi-Gong, but in Wicca there's a lot of altered states of consciousness that are used - everything from taking a few moments to centre yourself and shake off mundane daily thought processes in order to prepare for ritual (sort of like praying before going to church), to basic meditation work, right through to raising energy in a collective group experience or very deep and/or ecstastic trance experiences that can be quite disassociative or almost LDSish in their feeling. It's one of the reasons that any decent teacher or group won't take on someone who is mentally ill, and not stable in their treatment, or in the strictest cases, won't take on anyone who has been treated for a mental illness at all. It might sound like a lot of 'woo' to many people, but if you take someone with untreated or unstable psychosis and put them into an altered state of mind - well let's just say most teachers of the craft aren't trained Psychologists or Psychiatrists so we can't necessarily predict or deal with what may or may not happen, but the potential for that altered state to trigger off some sort of psychotic episode isn't out of the realms of possibility. Same as if you've got someone with clinical depression, who experiences an ecstatic state of joy during trance work, and then has to be bought out of it, it's not uncommon for even a (quote unquote) normal person to experience some level of 'crashing back down to earth' after being up so high, and that feeling is likely to be magnified in someone suffering a depressive illness.

I have no problem with someone having a spontaneous spiritual awakening that changes their entire out look on life or alters their psychological profile for the better. I do have a problem with people who claim such spiritual awakenings, and then go on to prey on the most vulnerable in society, with next to no caution or consideration given to a person's underlying mental state, and charge them thousands of dollars for the 'privilege' on top of that.

 

[Ceke2002]

I agree about the maintaining it. That's the part to me that is different from these gurus and the people who follow them. I actually think both of them teach valuable things for stressful moments. But for a lifetime, I'm not sure why you would want to detach entirely from the human narrative or how you could--which is why I wondered if they themselves possibly experienced some organic brain change. As to whether seriously off-tap or full of it, for some reason, I'm inclined to believe the former--not sure why. Maybe I'm easily hypnotized by charismatic people. No risk of me going to a Byron Katie school, though. Those do sound not so great, especially since I've heard severely mentally ill people go in search of help. Her materials online seem innocuous to me, but with people in need of help, there's always that drive to go farther with something.

I don't think there's anything wrong with someone seeking a religious or spiritual aspect to their lives in order to improve a feeling of mental wellness. I've said it before, but my own Psychiatrist is very encouraging of my Wiccan practice, because he knows it is something that has a positive effect for me (and which is also an important part of my life). I think the trouble comes when people with a variety of mental illnesses start looking to be 'saved', as if there's a magical formula out there that's going to offer them some sort of insta!cure, and they can throw away their meds and quit thera ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD (yes, I know, I went there 😛).

The other problem is the more people become interested in so called NRM's, the more hucksters and charlatans start to come out the woodwork. I saw it first hand with Wicca. There was a steady growth in interest, and the craft gradually becoming more public throughout the 70s and 80s, but even by the mid 1980s when some observers were talking about an 'occult explosion', it wasn't exactly like you could just open up your local paper and go find a coven or teacher. Fast forward to the mid 90s and suddenly it seemed every man and his dog was Wiccan, and far too many of those consisted of liars, rip off merchants, and worse, outright predators. I can see the same thing happening with the so called 'New Age' movement.

 

[whopper]

A good clinician will sometimes have a breakthrough with a patient that wants to get better. I've had them just as I'm sure others here have so long as they've worked long enough. I've gone home from work a few days at 8PM when I could've left 5PM because I had a breakthrough with a patient and because they are so rare, I wanted to strike while the iron was hot and exploit the moment.

 

[Ceke2002]

This is Byron Katie's:

"Yeah. I was very suicidal, very depressed. Agoraphobic. Paranoid. Really pretty hopeless. Just obsessing the suicide. Many years. So I went to this halfway house and…the women were so afraid of me that I was put in an attic — that was the only way I could stay. They put me in an attic up above. And I slept on the floor in there. And one morning I was asleep on the floor and I felt this thing crawl over my foot and I looked down and it was a cockroach. I opened my eyes and… [pause] what was born was not me…and, the way I tell it is…she rose, she walked, she apparently talked. She was delighted. It is so ecstatic to be born and not born. It sees, and sees everything, without a concept. It's amazing."​

Source: http://realization.org/p/byron-kati...interview/massad.byron-katie-interview.1.html

You know when I first discovered Wicca I experienced what I could very well claim was a spontaneous awakening of spiritual awareness. Quite literally I read one article from an old 70s occult magazine, and had one of those 'bolt from the blue', holy bleep at long last I've returned home type intense emotional experiences, converted to Wicca on the spot and started searching for a teacher. Now I say 'could have claimed a spontaneous awakening of spiritual awareness', because the reality is I'd been on a spiritual quest for two years prior. I'm wondering if Byron Katie's story is somewhat similar in that she had been, perhaps unknowingly, searching for a way out of her despair, and one day something just clicked for her. In this case it would more likely be a culmination of thoughts and considerations and self-searching over a period of time, that eventually all came together to create that 'Aha!' moment, but I wouldn't class it as an instant moment of awakening.

Maybe I'm easily hypnotized by charismatic people.

If you want to see how easy it is for people to be duped by Charismatic persons, read this article - http://www.skepdic.com/carlos.html.

By the way, seeing as you are interested in learning about New Religious Movements, you are more than welcome to ask me any questions you like on my own beliefs. I am more than happy to answer as best I can, bearing in mind that even after 25 years I am far from being considered an 'expert' or any sort of definitive source. 🙂

 

[smalltownpsych]

I think the phenomenon of the Spiritual Awakening producing change, often enduring and life-changing, is a fairly common theme in a wide range of settings, secular and religious. Some have even suggested that what AA calls a Spiritual Awakening, what Buddhism calls Enlightenment, what Christianity calls Conversion, what a secular leader calls inspiration, are all pretty much the same thing--and we might even speed the process along in the brain with judicious application of hallucinogens in a controlled environment. This may be what we're already touching on with ketamine.

William James book The Varieties of Religious Experience describes these experiences well, although mainly the dramatic religious variety. Also, Carl Jung was key in the development of AA by telling an alcoholic patient of the necessity for this type of transformative experience. There was also some research conducted on LSD as being of potential benefit in bringing about this type of experience. AA members are very clear that the experience alone is not sufficient to create lasting change and that the thought of being "cured" can be a dangerous trap for addicts. In fact, my own research into the 12-step culture found a lot of connections between concepts in AA and concepts in CBT and definitely not "revival" type of energy to create spiritual experiences that one might see in other organizations. Pretty sober and cognitively oriented groups if you ask me (pun intended).

 

[jakeislove]

Couldn't some of the Guru phenomenon be indicative of mental illness among followers sharing a variation of the same delusion?

 

[smalltownpsych]

Couldn't some of the Guru phenomenon be indicative of mental illness among followers sharing a variation of the same delusion?

IMO it has more to do with standard social psychology principles which is different from the concept of mental illness. Although people with certain types of personality organization tend to be more suggestible than others. Also, many people with mental illnesses are more vulnerable to charlatans whether guru or get rich quick or Nigerian princess needs help.

 

[jakeislove]

IMO it has more to do with standard social psychology principles which is different from the concept of mental illness. Although people with certain types of personality organization tend to be more suggestible than others. Also, many people with mental illnesses are more vulnerable to charlatans whether guru or get rich quick or Nigerian princess needs help.

I'm not getting money from Nigeria!? They're supposed to be mailing me an ATM card right after verifying my SSN, credit card, banking, and home address information.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I'm not getting money from Nigeria!? They're supposed to be mailing me an ATM card right after verifying my SSN, credit card, banking, and home address information.

lol You might want to visit this thread. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...alth-professionals-seeking-treatment.1091995/

 

[jakeislove]

lol You might want to visit this thread. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...alth-professionals-seeking-treatment.1091995/

Don't be a cynic, Man.

The money's coming!