Question about specialties and being a DO

[homeboy]

Yes orthopedic surgeons can do the same thing, in fact many of us will be trained by F&A orthos during residency. But the truth of the matter is that they make up a small percentage of orthos. We can and do fill that void

You're reiterating what's already been discussed, but I'll add this:
There IS a void because YOU'RE creating it. If DPMs didn't operate & provide ortho F&A services, the slack would be picked up by the orthos, plain & simple.

How is this different than a profession covering a different extremity, say, the hand, offering rheumatic hand care & minor hand surgeries? That crap is no less complex, but is already covered by rheumatologists & hand surgeons.
The same can be applied to the foot: if there were no DPMs, the void would be EASILY filled by other providers: PAs, NPs, FPs, Orthos, etc…

I understand the same argument can be applied to these other non-physician professions, but the difference is they are 2 yr degrees, and any attempt to expand upon them (eg. the DNP degree) is met with resistance from our profession.

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[scpod]

.... if there were no DPMs, the void would be EASILY filled by other providers: PAs, NPs, FPs, Orthos, etc….

It could be filled by ortho MD's and DO's, but not by the others you listed. In my hospital, DPM's can admit a patient, do the H&P, schedule surgery, perform surgery, prescribe meds and discharge the patient.... without any other provider involved. There is a DPM on ER call every day. We only have 4 orthopaedic surgeons on staff. None of them is a foot expert. I suspect these guys (the DPM's) have done more foot surgeries than any of our MD's or DO's.

Now, in a big university teaching hospital that might not be the case. They probably have foot specialty fellowship-trained orthopods on staff. However, for 90% of the hospitals in the US, that is NOT the case.

 

[cool_vkb]

this petty talk of who is best or who can do this or that is limited among students and pre-meds/pre-pods. In real life, we all depend on each other. lets be real, if you are an internist or a family practioner who is getting tons of referrals from a podiatrist for managing systemic diseases. or you are Foot & ankle ortho who is getting referrals from a local pod for complex rearfoot surgeries (not that he cant do, but he is too busy with other cases) and you are getting a good number of referrals weekly.would you really come to my office or at a party and debate with me about who is better at foot and ankle work or midlevel or any kind of controversial talk . heck no! as long as you get your referrals you are happy. and as long as you send me referrals for foot problems iam happy. There is a mutual relationship. There might be few skirmishes here and there but there isnt really a big battle going on as many pre-meds/pre-pods or pod/med students are trying to project.

Nobody is better than anybody. At the end of the day all that matters is money. if you are getting plenty of referrals from DPM you will have no problem. The problem starts once there is competition. but thats not because of DPM degree. even if a second ortho comes in your territory. you will respond with same animosity and fierceness as you would respond if a DPM comes in and try to compete with you.

Many of people who are posting (including myself) are students or residents. we dont really know practice management. if we enter real life practices with this mindset i doubt any of us would benifit. you refer to me, i refer to you. as long as we benifit each other mutually. no doctor gives a **** about who is better than the other. an ortho will keep on sending tons of foot and ankle stuff (even if he is capable) to a pod if that pod keeps on referring patients to that ortho for other problems. I know a pod who sends rearfoot surgeries to a foot & ankle ortho and the foot & ankle ortho refers all his forefoot stuff to this pod. its not that they cant handle cases on their own. but its about give and take. we all depend on referals.thats how real world works.

 

[Peptoboy]

this petty talk of who is best or who can do this or that is limited among students and pre-meds/pre-pods. In real life, we all depend on each other. lets be real, if you are an internist or a family practioner who is getting tons of referrals from a podiatrist for managing systemic diseases. or you are Foot & ankle ortho who is getting referrals from a local pod for complex rearfoot surgeries (not that he cant do, but he is too busy with other cases) and you are getting a good number of referrals weekly.would you really come to my office or at a party and debate with me about who is better at foot and ankle work or midlevel or any kind of controversial talk . heck no! as long as you get your referrals you are happy. and as long as you send me referrals for foot problems iam happy. There is a mutual relationship. There might be few skirmishes here and there but there isnt really a big battle going on as many pre-meds/pre-pods or pod/med students are trying to project.

Nobody is better than anybody. At the end of the day all that matters is money. if you are getting plenty of referrals from DPM you will have no problem. The problem starts once there is competition. but thats not because of DPM degree. even if a second ortho comes in your territory. you will respond with same animosity and fierceness as you would respond if a DPM comes in and try to compete with you.

Many of people who are posting (including myself) are students or residents. we dont really know practice management. if we enter real life practices with this mindset i doubt any of us would benifit. you refer to me, i refer to you. as long as we benifit each other mutually. no doctor gives a **** about who is better than the other. an ortho will keep on sending tons of foot and ankle stuff (even if he is capable) to a pod if that pod keeps on referring patients to that ortho for other problems. I know a pod who sends rearfoot surgeries to a foot & ankle ortho and the foot & ankle ortho refers all his forefoot stuff to this pod. its not that they cant handle cases on their own. but its about give and take. we all depend on referals.thats how real world works.

Good post, I guess the only problem I am having like I stated above is that ever since the first Podiatrist decided to enter this forum it has been about 3 pages of Podiatry discussion. I have nothing against Podiatry.

 

[cool_vkb]

Good post, I guess the only problem I am having like I stated above is that ever since the first Podiatrist decided to enter this forum it has been about 3 pages of Podiatry discussion. I have nothing against Podiatry.

Iam a strong supporter of SDN closing threads to non-professional students in professional threads.

What we need is zero tolerance policy from moderators. as soon as they see a pre-pod or pod student or pre-vet ,etc trolling in threads where they have no business or a pre-med or osteo student trolling in Podiatry forums just to pick up fights. they should immideatly delete that post and ban that member and end the mess. Everybody has right of free speech. but this unnecessary intereference is destroying threads and creating rifts.

The aim of SDN is to allow pre-prof students to gain valuable insight from students and doctors about professions or engage in healthy debate. this is not a healthy debate. this is getting more and more uglier and the end result will be of no use to anybody. At one side we have APMA and AOA engaging in healthy dialogue and here we are entangled in this mess.

Iam very disappointed that moderators are allowing this thread to continue. this dialogue or argument is not yielding any positive results. we are discussing issues of origins of osteopathy to curriculum in pod schools to Nursepractioners filling the void. Is there really any profit or benifit coming out of this apart from more flaming arguments.

I agree that the pod student had no business in interferring in an ongoing osteo-osteo thread and more than that he brought this link to to pod forums.thats how i ended up here :-( . that post by DOdoc was nothing more than a mistake from the source he copied. There was no attack on podiatry profession or anything bad was being said. i personally would have never bothered to entered. but i guess DOdoc overreaction added more fire. i want this debate to end and we all can get back to our daily worries. you guys have your own residency worries, boards tensions,LORs,externships. and we have our tensions and worries. Its senseless to continue this thread when the issue has been diverted compeltely.

 

[cliquesh]

As a DO, you will probably have to do an AOA residency for ENT, so you would have to do your training in either MI, MO, NJ, OH, OK, or PA. Moreover, the competition for those programs are pretty heavy, since those programs collectively only accept 20 first year residents each year.

 

[homeboy]

Can we please get back on topic?

Because I came in here looking for some advice as a pre-med considering ENT w/ a possible facial plastics fellowship afterwards and was looking towards a few DO schools based mainly on location. But then I just read 3 pages of an e-penis measuring contest between people who should probably have better things to do.

Question is: if I'm considering a mid-level allo school (Arizona, is it actually mid-level?) or DO schools, considering my ultimate career goals, would a DO degree hinder me? I'm leaning more toward the DO based on location because the only similar allo location are the California schools, which I have little shot at being out of state. However, it seems the only AOA ENT residencies are in MI, MO, or PA, none of which fit in with my geographic priorities (between significant other/family). Thoughts? Advice?

First off, your career plans are subject to change. Very few people, regardless of how absolutely sure they are they're going to be an OFM plastic surgeon, ENT, radiologist, whatever, actually follow through because 1.) the specialty they viewed from the pre-med position isn't as grand, 2.) grades and/or board scores get in the way, 3.) you develop other interests, scholastically or socially, and pursue another field, or 4.) you realize medicine is exceedingly complicated and bound & gagged by politicians, drug companies, and various other forms of parasites living off the work of others (eg. health care professionals, namely physicians), so you quit and get a job with the local carnies guessing peoples' weight for $7 / hr and all the corndogs you can eat.

That, coupled with the fact you have no idea what those AOA ENT residencies are like...you may find they are critically subpar and wouldn't want to train there...and as mentioned, there are only 20 of them.

Bottom line, seeking a certain medical school because you think it will impact your residency possibilities (if that's what you were getting at) is misguided. If you have serious career goals, fantastic, and there's nothing wrong with geographic priorities (I had them myself). But no one is going to care where you went to med school, including the program directors of the residencies you're applying to (unless recent grads from your school screwed something up, but you have no way of knowing that).

What gets you in are board scores, grades, having a personality worth spending 5 yrs along side, and luck (ie. the match favors applicants but is no guarantee).

And keep in mind that allo ENT is VERY competitive, and most programs only have a handful of slots, and I'm not sure on the numbers of DOs that went allo ENT but it's small if not virtually zero (I'm too lazy to look up the numbers).

 

[bth7]

Question is: if I'm considering a mid-level allo school (Arizona, is it actually mid-level?) or DO schools, considering my ultimate career goals, would a DO degree hinder me?

Now, you are asking a focused question, so we can all answer more specifically.

The answer to your question is, yes, a DO school will in fact hinder you from getting into an ACGME residency in many specialties, including the ones you've mentioned.

As far as AOA residency goes, of course, you will actually have an advantage as a DO.

We've all been in this position. Location. That's what you're thinking about. I would strongly advise you to consider that you'll be faced with a very similar problem 4 years from now in choosing a residency. If you graduate from any MD school, "mid level" or not, you will be at the top of the pile of applicants. You will have more freedom to choose where you train and what specialty you train in.

I chose location over quality 4 years ago, and went to the DO school in the city of my choice (SF). I am now facing some very frustrating consequences of that choice. Yes, I took the USMLE. Yes, I scored very well. But because I am a DO, certain options that I am seeking are simply not an option for me. (And I'm entering psychiatry, hardly the most competitive field.)

I'm not going to tell you what to do, of course, but I will advise you, choose very carefully. Bear in mind you are biased right now. Basically, you want someone to tell you that it doesn't matter if you go DO.

I am telling you, it does.

bth

 

[Slack3r]

Balls.

After doing some reading on the AOA and some current problems facing DO's, I'm really thinking it may be best to just push real hard for an allo school. Seems like the AOA is completely impotent in dealing with even basic issues, and I can only imagine things are going to get much worse before they begin to look better. Oh well, thanks for the help!

 

[bth7]

Balls.

After doing some reading on the AOA and some current problems facing DO's, I'm really thinking it may be best to just push real hard for an allo school. Seems like the AOA is completely impotent in dealing with even basic issues, and I can only imagine things are going to get much worse before they begin to look better. Oh well, thanks for the help!

Good work my friend. Go for that push. It will pay off. It's your career, don't leave it in the hands of the AOA.

bth

 

[JaggerPlate]

Balls.

After doing some reading on the AOA and some current problems facing DO's, I'm really thinking it may be best to just push real hard for an allo school. Seems like the AOA is completely impotent in dealing with even basic issues, and I can only imagine things are going to get much worse before they begin to look better. Oh well, thanks for the help!

Have you already been accepted to the arizona allo school you were talking about?? Because otherwise, this argument is pointless. You can't become an ENT for sure without a medical degree first.

 

[bigDinLV]

Now, you are asking a focused question, so we can all answer more specifically.

The answer to your question is, yes, a DO school will in fact hinder you from getting into an ACGME residency in many specialties, including the ones you've mentioned.

As far as AOA residency goes, of course, you will actually have an advantage as a DO.

We've all been in this position. Location. That's what you're thinking about. I would strongly advise you to consider that you'll be faced with a very similar problem 4 years from now in choosing a residency. If you graduate from any MD school, "mid level" or not, you will be at the top of the pile of applicants. You will have more freedom to choose where you train and what specialty you train in.

I chose location over quality 4 years ago, and went to the DO school in the city of my choice (SF). I am now facing some very frustrating consequences of that choice. Yes, I took the USMLE. Yes, I scored very well. But because I am a DO, certain options that I am seeking are simply not an option for me. (And I'm entering psychiatry, hardly the most competitive field.)

I'm not going to tell you what to do, of course, but I will advise you, choose very carefully. Bear in mind you are biased right now. Basically, you want someone to tell you that it doesn't matter if you go DO.

I am telling you, it does.

bth

Complete load of it there. I didn't have any problems getting MD interviews for anesthesia programs, which is harder to get into than psych... Rush has about 1/4 of their anesthesia residents from DO schools.. A very top notch place if you ask me, or the US news and world reports for ranking top hospitals. Some of the people I met at interviews also had invitations to other places like Mayo.. So where exactly are we coming up short?

People from Touro CA matched into Duko ophtho, Rush physical med, Washington physical med, USC for IM.. So where exactly are we coming up short?

You say your scores are "good" but how good? How are the grades to go with it? LORs? Biggest question would be, what did you write in your personal statement?

 

[bigDinLV]

Good work my friend. Go for that push. It will pay off. It's your career, don't leave it in the hands of the AOA.

bth

Why are you putting us down from the inside??

 

[Lamborghini1315]

Balls.

After doing some reading on the AOA and some current problems facing DO's, I'm really thinking it may be best to just push real hard for an allo school. Seems like the AOA is completely impotent in dealing with even basic issues, and I can only imagine things are going to get much worse before they begin to look better. Oh well, thanks for the help!

Yea i would be lying if i told you to go DO if you want to do ENT eventually. Allopathic ENT programs are extremely competitive, its doable if you are a DO but will make your chances quite slim by doing so. Also the diversity of DO ENT programs and its locations will be less attractive compared to the allopathic side. You should be realistic about your chances, if you have what it takes you will get there no matter what's in your way, believe me. I would never recommend someone to choose DO over MD or vice versa but if you tell me that i want to match at a ENT program, my answer is go MD.

 

[Peptoboy]

Complete load of it there. I didn't have any problems getting MD interviews for anesthesia programs, which is harder to get into than psych... Rush has about 1/4 of their anesthesia residents from DO schools.. A very top notch place if you ask me, or the US news and world reports for ranking top hospitals. Some of the people I met at interviews also had invitations to other places like Mayo.. So where exactly are we coming up short?

People from Touro CA matched into Duko ophtho, Rush physical med, Washington physical med, USC for IM.. So where exactly are we coming up short?

You say your scores are "good" but how good? How are the grades to go with it? LORs? Biggest question would be, what did you write in your personal statement?

Good post! I feel the exact same way. For some routes in medicine obviously the allopathic residencies show some favoritism, but we all know D.O.'s that have been given some very prestigious residency appointments. If allo is your true passion by all means I have nothing but good to say about it, but if you would like to be a D.O. it can be equally as fulfilling and competetive residencies are available if you work hard and do well on the boards.

 

[bth7]

Why are you putting us down from the inside??

I'm not "putting us down." This isn't a game. I'm not fighting a battle.

Someone has to eventually tell the truth. Even if it isn't egosyntonic.

bth

 

[bth7]

Allopathic ENT programs are extremely competitive, its doable if you are a DO but will make your chances quite slim by doing so. Also the diversity of DO ENT programs and its locations will be less attractive compared to the allopathic side. You should be realistic about your chances

Completely endorse this statement 100%. It's just about telling the honest truth.

Realism. Be honest. Come on people.

bth

 

[J1515]

I'm not "putting us down." This isn't a game. I'm not fighting a battle.

Someone has to eventually tell the truth. Even if it isn't egosyntonic.

bth

What makes you think your own personal experiences are the universal truth, when myself and bigDinLV had completely opposite experiences?

You need to take a look in the mirror rather than blaming the initials for your lack of success.

I should add, with very few exceptions, the DOs from my class and the year before us had plenty of interviews for psych. There was no shortage in psych and FP interviews if that's what you applied for.

 

[bigDinLV]

Completely endorse this statement 100%. It's just about telling the honest truth.

Realism. Be honest. Come on people.

bth

Yea, realism and the honest truth. Many of us have no problems getting into what we want that is the truth.. that statement was about doing ENT..

if you're having problems instead of trying to trash my profession, perhaps it is time to look in the mirror, instead of trying to bring us down as a whole.

I know exactly who you are.. You screamed and cried when Touro initially wouldn't provide funding for some type of gay group on campus. You tried to absolutely drag the school through the mud. You were trying to get local newspapers to say the school was discriminating. You even wanted to have protests to further drag down the school didn't you???

It's the same story again.. You aren't getting what you want, so everyone sucks..

 

[cuddlepuppy]

Well...to take a step back and answer the real question at hand. For the average medical student, it is harder for a DO student to get into competitive allopathic residencies. Absolutely not saying that it isn't possible, because as many of you on here have shown it is possible. But bottomline, a DO student with the exact CV/application as an MD applicant, the MD applicant will get the spot (majority of the time).

Let's be real and understand something. There are two types of osteopathic medical students. 1) The student who tried like hell to get into an MD school and couldn't get in, but a DO school saw potential. 2) The student who truly had a choice between MD and DO schools but felt that DO was a better fit for whatever reason (philosophy, geography, etC). I hate to admit it, but the majority of DO students are the first type.

In my opinion, DO students sometimes get a chip on their shoulder and become defensive about their training and residency placement. I think it's because the majority of them are the first type of students who wanted MD but ended up DO. Those are the students/residents who log on everyday and make hundreds of posts onl about any issue comparing MD vs DOs.

From my experience, I was the first type of student. If I had gotten an acceptance to an MD school, I would have gone there for the relatively less resistance to DOs by some specialties or institutions and for the lack of recognition as a profession or degree. Having gone through medical school, I would not change my experience for anything and I truly feel blessed for the path that I eventually traveled.

With that said, hopefully the pre-meds and medical students can see the bias in those who post on here. As a DO who has gone through medical school and well into my residency, it is harder to get into some of the more competitive residencies. BUT, it is possible if you work hard and keep shooting for your goals.

 

[bth7]

Well...to take a step back and answer the real question at hand. For the average medical student, it is harder for a DO student to get into competitive allopathic residencies. Absolutely not saying that it isn't possible, because as many of you on here have shown it is possible. But bottomline, a DO student with the exact CV/application as an MD applicant, the MD applicant will get the spot (majority of the time).

Thank you for being honest. It's better than propaganda.

This is all I am saying. It's the truth. And no amount of smoke and mirrors will distract from it.

As a DO, you will be at a disadvantage.

bth

 

[bth7]

You screamed and cried when Touro initially wouldn't provide funding for some type of gay group on campus. You even wanted to have protests to further drag down the school didn't you???

Yeah, I screamed. I cried. And yes, we did protest.

Out but Not Loud. https://www.do-online.org/pdf/pub_do0508outnotloud.pdf

Gay Rights Group Charter is Revoked. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/09/12/BAGSPL3NVR1.DTL

Bush's Surgeon General Condemned by Osteopathic Student Groups. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,279032,00.html

AOA Policies Send Chilling message to the LGBT community. https://www.do-online.org/pdf/pub_do0808letters.pdf

Photosensitivity, corneal scarring and developmental delay: Xeroderma Pigmentosum in a tropical country. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2577106

Oh, and yes, we did win.

bth

 

[bth7]

What did you win?

We won this.

Out but Not Loud. https://www.do-online.org/pdf/pub_do0508outnotloud.pdf

Gay Rights Group Charter is Revoked. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/09/12/BAGSPL3NVR1.DTL

Touro Provost Says Gay Right's Group Charter WASN'T Dropped. http://www.newsforgays.com/2006/09/12/touros-provost-says-gay-group-wasnt-dropped-vallejo-times-herald/

Touro: "Just Kidding about that whole 'Gays Go Away' Thing." http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2006/09/touro_univ_oh_j.html

California Med School Reinstates Gay Group After Protests. http://www.247gay.com/print_this_article.cfm?id=10639&section=66

NATION'S MEDICAL STUDENTS APPLAUD CALIFORNIA OSTEOPATHIC MEDICAL SCHOOL'S AFFIRMATION OF GAY-STRAIGHT ALLIANCE. http://www.amsa.org/news/release2.cfx?id=279

California Med School Reinstates Gay Student Group After Protests. http://www.gayjob.biz/page.cfm?Sectionid=2&typeofsite=snippetdetail&ID=1501&snippetset=yes


GLMA DECRIES DECISION BY TOURO UNIVERSITY COLLEGE OF OSTEOPATHIC MEDICINE TO BAN GAY STRAIGHT ALLIANCE STUDENT GROUP. http://www.head-rush.com/images/GLMADecriesTouroStraight-GayAllianceBan9-9-06.pdf

Bush's Surgeon General Condemned by Osteopathic Student Groups. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,279032,00.html

AOA Policies Send Chilling message to the LGBT community. https://www.do-online.org/pdf/pub_do0808letters.pdf

Photosensitivity, corneal scarring and developmental delay: Xeroderma Pigmentosum in a tropical country. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2577106

bth

 

[bth7]

A gay student group? Great.

Your energy appears to be a bit misplaced.

Misplaced. Right. Got it.

 

[bth7]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from the tone of your posts, you have much more to be worried about with respect to your career than you do your campus club.

Much more to be worried about.

Right. Thanks. Got it.

bth

 

[bigDinLV]

My point exactly. You weren't happy there, you cried and tried to put our school down. You didn't even do it with class, your sole mission was to put the school's reputation in the dirt. Rather pathetic actually..

Now that you aren't getting what you want.. You choose to put our whole profession down..

I don't think any protests are going to help this time. You'll be left out and all you'll do is scream that it is because you are a DO. Then you will attack my profession. I hesitate to call it our profession, because you already seem to disown it.

 

[bth7]

My point exactly. You weren't happy there, you cried and tried to put our school down. You didn't even do it with class, your sole mission was to put the school's reputation in the dirt. Rather pathetic actually..

Now that you aren't getting what you want.. You choose to put our whole profession down..

I don't think any protests are going to help this time. You'll be left out and all you'll do is scream that it is because you are a DO. Then you will attack my profession. I hesitate to call it our profession, because you already seem to disown it.

I'm a physician. My patients come first.

I don't know what "profession" you are a member of. I hope that whatever it is, patients come before physician egos.

bth

 

[bigDinLV]

I'm a physician. My patients come first.

I don't know what "profession" you are a member of. I hope that whatever it is, patients come before physician egos.

bth

You haven't graduated yet, you're a med student for now.

Somebody is going to have a fit!!

 

[bth7]

You haven't graduated yet, you're a med student for now.

Somebody is going to have a fit!!

I'm a physician. My patients come first.

I don't know what "profession" you are a member of. I hope that whatever it is, patients come before physician egos.

bth

 

[bigDinLV]

Your inability to come up for a real reason that you despise becoming a D.O. kinda makes me giggle

 

[Bleurberry]

Misplaced. Right. Got it.

I think you're getting a lot of crap on this thread for no good reason.
In my view, you're entitled to your views, both personal and professional.
I, for one, believe part of your dissatisfaction has to do with locality.

 

[bth7]

Your inability to come up for a real reason that you despise becoming a D.O. kinda makes me giggle

The reason I don't have a reason is that . . . I don't despise being a DO.

Does Osteopathic medicine face some very serious challenges as a profession? Yes. Are there are also strengths to draw on within this tradition? Sure.

You have to keep all this in perspective. At the end of the day, we are physicians, and that's a very good thing. Maybe our schools were different, maybe our degrees are different, and maybe we had different experiences getting to the finish line - but the end point is the same. Doctor.

bth

 

[J1515]

I'm a physician. My patients come first.

I don't know what "profession" you are a member of. I hope that whatever it is, patients come before physician egos.

bth

Really? Seems to me the majority of your energy at school is focused on complaining about equal rights, changing initials, forming student groups, and whatever else. Perhaps your residents and attendings saw this and compared you with student B who's main focus was to learn learn learn. All I know is the DO students here who are diligent, put their head down and work hard to learn medicine, and don't pi55 people off have no problem getting interviews.

As to not get off topic, to the OP:

Study hard during the first 2 years, work hard during the last 2 years, don't complain, and graduate. The rest is up to you.

 

[homeboy]

Really? Seems to me the majority of your energy at school is focused on complaining about equal rights, changing initials, forming student groups, and whatever else. Perhaps your residents and attendings saw this and compared you with student B who's main focus was to learn learn learn. All I know is the DO students here who are diligent, put their head down and work hard to learn medicine, and don't pi55 people off have no problem getting interviews.

As to not get off topic, to the OP:

Study hard during the first 2 years, work hard during the last 2 years, don't complain, and graduate. The rest is up to you.

While I don't disagree with the premise of your argument (working hard), it is simply not true with every specialty.

I've used ortho as a prime example multiple times, because it's so blatantly ridiculous how the programs fill. Those who work hard match there, no doubt, but it's an unwritten requirement to rotate at most institutions, and the programs are nearly filled before the so-called "match."

It's been like this for years.

Now that's just one example, and in general, yes, if you work your tail off, you'll get interviews at many programs, but the DO match is no where near the same plane as the allopathic match.

I guarantee you being a DO, especially not having taken the USMLE, can be a disadvantage in certain specialties and in certain locations; I've experienced it myself and have seen it first hand. Did I still match at my #1? Yea, but the notion DO=MD in the eyes of all PDs is a falsehood, often simply because they have no idea how to interpret the COMLEX.

 

[bigDinLV]

The reason I don't have a reason is that . . . I don't despise being a DO.

Does Osteopathic medicine face some very serious challenges as a profession? Yes. Are there are also strengths to draw on within this tradition? Sure.

You have to keep all this in perspective. At the end of the day, we are physicians, and that's a very good thing. Maybe our schools were different, maybe our degrees are different, and maybe we had different experiences getting to the finish line - but the end point is the same. Doctor.

bth

Even if we do have challenges, so be it. Why in the world would you want to advise against our profession to anyone though? This negativity from the inside surely won't help with any challenges. it won't help unite us, it won't help anything... heck if I know, maybe we do need new leadership. There are things in the philosophy that I disagree with and would like to see different, but i'm not going to bash our group because of it.

Another person that said if you just do the work, there shouldn't be problems.. I've seen that example repeatedly, I honestly think that is getting to be more of the normal thing instead of the exception.

I won't say there isn't any bias against us... It is going away, gone in many or most places.

 

[J1515]

While I don't disagree with the premise of your argument (working hard), it is simply not true with every specialty.

I've used ortho as a prime example multiple times, because it's so blatantly ridiculous how the programs fill. Those who work hard match there, no doubt, but it's an unwritten requirement to rotate at most institutions, and the programs are nearly filled before the so-called "match."

It's been like this for years.

Now that's just one example, and in general, yes, if you work your tail off, you'll get interviews at many programs, but the DO match is no where near the same plane as the allopathic match.

Yes, this is true of many residencies. They want you to rotate with them before signing you on to a 5 year contract. Not a requirement, but it helps.

I guarantee you being a DO, especially not having taken the USMLE, can be a disadvantage in certain specialties and in certain locations; I've experienced it myself and have seen it first hand. Did I still match at my #1? Yea, but the notion DO=MD in the eyes of all PDs is a falsehood, often simply because they have no idea how to interpret the COMLEX.

I stand by my statement. If you prove yourself equal to the next applicant DO or MD (take the same tests) and have a nonmalignant personality you will do just fine. While there are a few allopathic programs that won't look at DOs, the majority of people who get rejected and tell these stories about how they've been treated unfairly need to take a look in the mirror and stop blaming the initials after their name.

 

[Taus]

For whatever it's worth:

My close friends in my class have all received the overwhelming majority of interviews that their "credentials" legitimately put them in the running for (my sample is in EM, Anest, PM&R, Ortho and Neurosurg). The ones w/ high board scores, research, strong letters of rec, etc, have accordingly received interviews at top programs. The ones going for surgical sub-specialties are not naive and only applied to DO programs.

Exceptions happen, but if you put the work in and are easy to get along with, the odds are heavily in your favor for getting what you want

 

[bth7]

there are a allopathic programs that won't look at DOs,

This is all I am saying. Note the truth. Some programs will not even look at you because you are a DO.

You can't just argue this fact away. Or minimize it. Or say it is unimportant. Going to a DO school, you are taking a career hit. You are excluding certain programs before you even apply.

End of the world? No. Reality? Yes.

bth

 

[bth7]

I won't say there isn't any bias against us...

That's all I am saying.

There is bias against us. People should understand and know this before they sign on to be a DO. It's not a crisis. But applicants should know and understand the reality of this situation.

bth

 

[bth7]

the notion DO=MD in the eyes of all PDs is a falsehood

Heed these wise words. DO DOES NOT equal MD. You will NOT be looked upon as an equal.

That's just the way it is.

Many within the DO profession with vehemently argue against this statement with intense rhetoric. They will be offended and outraged. But, that changes nothing. It is the truth.

bth

 

[Lamborghini1315]

Heed these wise words. DO DOES NOT equal MD. You will NOT be looked upon as an equal.

That's just the way it is.

Many within the DO profession with vehemently argue against this statement with intense rhetoric. They will be offended and outraged. But, that changes nothing. It is the truth.

bth

Hey man, i neither support your opinions nor condemn them..i don't think its in the best interest of anyone by constantly putting our profession in the backseat. We all know the problems that are facing us, we all have to pull together and start acting like we can be the solution rather than the problem. Sure the DO history is pretty awful and all the struggles DOs had to endure but we are here now, actually pretty darn close to enjoying a lot of the same benefits as MDs. Our post graduate training is the next step in attaining a satisfactory reputation but that won't happen until we all just quit debating about DO V MD distinctions, end of the day we are all individually responsible for how the DO profession will be perceived. So despite of difference of opinions we have to maintain our integrity and show pride..i don't mean to say stop voicing your concerns or giving valuable advise to pre-med students but don't scare them away with hostility.

 

[homeboy]

Yes, this is true of many residencies. They want you to rotate with them before signing you on to a 5 year contract. Not a requirement, but it helps.

No, for some specialties, it is an absolute albeit unwritten requirement (as with ortho).

 

[JaggerPlate]

Heed these wise words. DO DOES NOT equal MD. You will NOT be looked upon as an equal.

That's just the way it is.

Many within the DO profession with vehemently argue against this statement with intense rhetoric. They will be offended and outraged. But, that changes nothing. It is the truth.

bth

God your bitching is getting so old. I can't open a thread without you crying in it. We all get it, you're unhappy with your specific choice of school, and it's no secret that you're very vocal about protesting what you think is unfair. Great. We all get that you feel shafted and you are very unhappy with your clinical education, but there is a difference between trying to educate people in avoiding your mistakes, and self-pity. You're in the spot light ... we all see you, we get it, mission accomplished. Suck it up.

 

[J1515]

This is all I am saying. Note the truth. Some programs will not even look at you because you are a DO.

You can't just argue this fact away. Or minimize it. Or say it is unimportant. Going to a DO school, you are taking a career hit. You are excluding certain programs before you even apply.

End of the world? No. Reality? Yes.

bth

Nobody is minimizing it or denying it. It exists. Who cares? It has to do with the schools we come from and probably our med school admission stats, not the letters after our names. Even if WVSOM granted an MDO degree, Columbia's residency program still wouldn't interview them. But you know what? Hopkins and Harvard will. Again, who cares. These programs are in the minority now and you will still have zero problem becoming a doctor. You know how to change all of this? Quit whining, put your head down, and work hard. PROVE that you're the equivalent of an MD student instead of screaming discrimination at the drop of a hat and thinking you are entitled to equal treatment even though you probably entered medical school with a lower GPA and lower MCAT score than allopathic med students.

 

[bigDinLV]

Heed these wise words. DO DOES NOT equal MD. You will NOT be looked upon as an equal.

That's just the way it is.

Many within the DO profession with vehemently argue against this statement with intense rhetoric. They will be offended and outraged. But, that changes nothing. It is the truth.

bth

Thats odd.. My MD preceptor today said that the best doc he has ever known was a DO. I guess he probably doesn't see that guy as equal.

For every place that will absolutely refuse to take a DO, there are DO residencies that balance it out a little. We won't let a MD into one of our programs so perhaps some hold bias against us for that reason.

Once you start working people will know what type of doc you are. You will build a reputation based on the person you are, not where you graduated from. If you are good at what you do, you can equal and even surpass any MD.

 

[Bleurberry]

Heed these wise words. DO DOES NOT equal MD. You will NOT be looked upon as an equal.

That's just the way it is.

Many within the DO profession with vehemently argue against this statement with intense rhetoric. They will be offended and outraged. But, that changes nothing. It is the truth.

bth

I'm pretty confident that your perceptions are largely localized. If you came to Philadelphia/East Coast, or even Chicago, my take is you'd have a completely different view that'd be equally valid: Nearly every hospital and program in Philly has a DO working in it or running it, within reason. Our match list at PCOM demonstrates it, but I mean even my pulmonologist is a heavy hitter DO at Temple Lung Center. Faculty at Temple Medical have graduated from PCOM, for example, and it's not an isolated case. It's basically that you're having a myopic experience, and you need to break out of your shell before trying to convince everyone that the dark corner you're facing is reality as everyone has, is, and will ever know it. What you describe is what many describe as pre-med syndrome, but yours hasn't gone into remission for whatever reason (West coast?)

 

[bth7]

I'm pretty confident that your perceptions are largely localized. If you came to Philadelphia/East Coast, or even Chicago, my take is you'd have a completely different view that'd be equally valid: Nearly every hospital and program in Philly has a DO working in it or running it, within reason. Our match list at PCOM demonstrates it, but I mean even my pulmonologist is a heavy hitter DO at Temple Lung Center. Faculty at Temple Medical have graduated from PCOM, for example, and it's not an isolated case. It's basically that you're having a myopic experience, and you need to break out of your shell before trying to convince everyone that the dark corner you're facing is reality as everyone has, is

They may be largely localized. The only problem is, that they are true in some places. I'm glad its different at many places in Philly, or even Chicago. I really am.

But because DOs are more accepted in Philly, or Chicago, or everywhere except California, doesn't change my original statement.

DO does not equal MD.

The sky isn't falling. The world is not coming to an end. It is simply a fact to note, and plan for accordingly.

bth

 

[bth7]

Thats odd.. My MD preceptor today said that the best doc he has ever known was a DO. I guess he probably doesn't see that guy as equal.

That's awesome.

For every place that will absolutely refuse to take a DO, there are DO residencies that balance it out a little. We won't let a MD into one of our programs so perhaps some hold bias against us for that reason.

Once you start working people will know what type of doc you are. You will build a reputation based on the person you are, not where you graduated from. If you are good at what you do, you can equal and even surpass any MD.

I don't see the top ACGME programs that reject DOs as being compensated by sub-standard AOA (DO) residencies. I just can't swallow that one.

I do agree with you, once you start working, people will know you, not your degree.

Yes, you can overcome the deficiency in the DO degree. Perhaps you can overcome it easily. However, its still there. It should be addressed, or at least noted, so everyone can plan accordingly.

bth

 

[johnsmith777]

Why do DO's want to come to MD programs?

If you want to become an orthopedic surgeon, tell the AOA to lobby for some osteopathic only ortho positions.

All DO's do by applying for allopathic spots is continue the resentment of DO's by MD's.

 

[bth7]

Nobody is minimizing it or denying it. It exists.

It sounds like we are on the same page here. MD does not equal DO. And that's a reality we all face.

Is it the end of the world? No. It is something we have to deal with? Yes.

It's a hurdle to be overcome, not an insurmountable barrier. But that hurdle is there. And something, it sucks.

bth