Question about specialties and being a DO

[ralphlaurenfan]

Hi,

I'm still a pre-med, so please excuse my ignorance about this, but (even though it's early), I have an interest in these fields, listed in order of preferance:

1. Neurology/Opthalmology
2. General Surgery/Anesthesiology
3. Invasive Cardiology
4. Rheumatology/Physiatry
5. Emergency Medicine

So I was wondering how hard it is typically for DOs to match into these fields. In all honesty, I really want to do Opthalmology (although I would be extremely happy still with neurology, gen surgery, or anesthesiology), but I know even if I have an MD that the odds will be against me to get into it. That's why I'm mostly wondering about the other fields, because, with the exception of anesthesiology, and cardiology, these fields are traditionally not too difficult to get into (so I think I'm being generally reasonable), but would being a DO put me at a significant disadvantage for anything besides Opthalmology?

thanks

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[countthestars]

\ anesthesiology, and cardiology, these fields are traditionally not too difficult to get into (so I think I'm being generally reasonable)
thanks

um first off, Gas isn't easy to get into and Cardiology is actually pretty crazy hard to get into since its a fellowship after IM.

To answer your question, of course its easier to get into anything with an MD behind your name. That's just the nature of this business.

Now, I think you need to stop worrying about this kinda stuff. IF you work hard in school, get great grades, and good Board scores, you can DO ANYTHING. If not, then you can't ITS UP TO YOU...NOT THE LETTERS NEXT TO YOUR NAME OR THE SCHOOL THAT YOU WENT TO THAT DETERMINES WHAT RESIDENCY YOU HAVE A SHOT AT.

also, you have to remember, there are osteopathic ONLY residencies that you can apply to...

 

[countthestars]

Look, I don't want this to be another DO vs MD debate...The main point I was trying to get across was that its up to you as an applicant to put yourself in the BEST possible position to land that residency of your choice. If your dream is Ortho, Cardio, Optho, Surgery, then you better damn well be prepared to work your butt off in med school. Having a DO might hamper your chances at some allopahtic schools to get a residency at because like it or not, there are still some PDs and schools that flat out won't give a DO a shot (it sucks, I know). That's what I was trying to get across when i said its easier to get into anything with an MD behind your name (given an MD and a DO student with the same exact stats). I meant for allo programs.

To go back to the original OPs question. I think it might be hard to land a residency at certain allo schools as a DO. HOWEVER if you work hard in any school, and get good grades, then no a DO would NOT put you at a significant disadvantage to get into the field of your choice. Just remeber, the residency may not be at a school that you nescesally want to be at.

 

[countthestars]

I'm suggesting that it might be wise for many pre-meds to make a paradigm shift. Rather than focusing on the limitations encountered by DOs in some MD residencies, focus on the 10^16 lb elephant in the room. DOs have a protected route to specialize with less competition. If you want to be an brain surgeon, it's a no-brainer.

exactly man. Not to mention some of the programs are excellent programs. To take Neurosurgery as as example, NYCOM has a residency at North Shore-LIJ hospital. That's a major site for Albert Einstein medical school. NYCOM has a DO only neurosurgery there. So if you do work hard in a DO school, you might have a shot getting in there.

 

[rkaz]

exactly man. Not to mention some of the programs are excellent programs. To take Neurosurgery as as example, NYCOM has a residency at North Shore-LIJ hospital. That's a major site for Albert Einstein medical school. NYCOM has a DO only neurosurgery there. So if you do work hard in a DO school, you might have a shot getting in there.

But is it not possible for originally DO-only residency programs to decide to make their programs dually accredited? That would take off that advantage, but as a pre-med with lack of information I have no idea if (non-OMM) residency programs are increasingly motivated to become dually accredited or not.

 

[digitlnoize]

Hi,

I'm still a pre-med, so please excuse my ignorance about this, but (even though it's early), I have an interest in these fields, listed in order of preferance:

1. Neurology/Opthalmology
2. General Surgery/Anesthesiology
3. Invasive Cardiology
4. Rheumatology/Physiatry
5. Emergency Medicine

So I was wondering how hard it is typically for DOs to match into these fields. In all honesty, I really want to do Opthalmology (although I would be extremely happy still with neurology, gen surgery, or anesthesiology), but I know even if I have an MD that the odds will be against me to get into it. That's why I'm mostly wondering about the other fields, because, with the exception of anesthesiology, and cardiology, these fields are traditionally not too difficult to get into (so I think I'm being generally reasonable), but would being a DO put me at a significant disadvantage for anything besides Opthalmology?

thanks

Most of those listed wouldn't be that bad. Although Anesthesia is fairly competitive, it's not as bad as, say, ophtho. Anesthesia is also VERY DO friendly. Pretty much every school matches a decent amount of people into gas. Same goes for ER, Surgery, PM&R (physiatry).

Numbers for neuro and rheum are hard to come by because they're not extremely popular, but I wouldn't imagine you'd have much trouble with decent scores.

To do invasive cardiology, you need to do an IM residency first which are pretty easy to get for anyone. Getting a cards fellowship is rough though, for anyone.

Ophtho is possible, if that's what you really want to do, don't give up.

Like others have said, DO's can do any speciality they want. It's all about your board scores. DO's do need *slightly* better scores, but not impossible ones. We'll also not likely match at the BIG academic centers (although that too, is possible) but I don't want to anyways. I just want to be a good doctor and treat my patients. I don't give 2 *$%& about research.

The even-ness of the playing field is very program dependent at this point. One ER program director might hate DO's while another considers them 100% equal with MD's. Same goes for all the specialties. I would say that most of the "discrimination" is old-school, and alot of those people are retiring at this point.

 

[bjolly]

neuro, rheum, and physiatry should not be a problem. If you go into neuro you could always do neuro-optho fellowship which you might enjoy if you're really interested in eyes.

 

[Old_Mil]

Hi,

I'm still a pre-med, so please excuse my ignorance about this, but (even though it's early), I have an interest in these fields, listed in order of preferance:

1. Neurology/Opthalmology
2. General Surgery/Anesthesiology
3. Invasive Cardiology
4. Rheumatology/Physiatry
5. Emergency Medicine

Keep in mind that these are radically different fields, and the types of people attracted to them are quite different as well. As you progress through medical school and clinicals, expect this list to change dramatically.

So I was wondering how hard it is typically for DOs to match into these fields.

1. Neurology - not that hard
2. Opthalmology - nearly impossible
3. General Surgery - very difficult
4. Anesthesiology - moderately difficult
5. Cards - the path to this lies through internal medicine. Matching IM is easy. Getting the Cards fellowship afterwards, very difficult.
6. Rheumatology - again, the path lies through internal medicine, however a Rheum fellowship is significantly easier to get than a Cards fellowship.
7. Physiatry - very easy.
8. EM - moderately difficult

Keep in mind that going Optho, Gen Surg, Anesthesiology, EM, or to the sort of IM program that will put you in the running for cards will absolutely require that you complete the steps of the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX.

 

[Amy B]

You can match into anything if you worked very hard in med school and do awesome on your boards. Letters at the end of your name doesnt stop you from getting what you want. I have classmates that matched into every one of the residencies you listed.

 

[bigDinLV]

Look, I don't want this to be another DO vs MD debate...The main point I was trying to get across was that its up to you as an applicant to put yourself in the BEST possible position to land that residency of your choice. If your dream is Ortho, Cardio, Optho, Surgery, then you better damn well be prepared to work your butt off in med school. Having a DO might hamper your chances at some allopahtic schools to get a residency at because like it or not, there are still some PDs and schools that flat out won't give a DO a shot (it sucks, I know). That's what I was trying to get across when i said its easier to get into anything with an MD behind your name (given an MD and a DO student with the same exact stats). I meant for allo programs.

To go back to the original OPs question. I think it might be hard to land a residency at certain allo schools as a DO. HOWEVER if you work hard in any school, and get good grades, then no a DO would NOT put you at a significant disadvantage to get into the field of your choice. Just remeber, the residency may not be at a school that you nescesally want to be at.

I personally think that being a DO can put you in a good situation for matching..
#1 You get access to a few more programs that are DO only, like someone else said, big fish in a small pond.
#2 You get 2 chances to match. First the DO match in Feb and then the MD match in march.
#3 With those things being said. You're really going to have to work this to your max advantage. Rock the boards and do audition rotations. I'm not a huge advocate of DO's taking the USMLE, but you will need to and do great on it.

Plus, some of my DO friends got really great ophtho residencies. I have a friend at Duke ophtho and 2 more in DO optho in Vegas.

 

[DrWBD]

Hi,

I'm still a pre-med, so please excuse my ignorance about this, but (even though it's early), I have an interest in these fields, listed in order of preferance:

1. Neurology/Opthalmology
2. General Surgery/Anesthesiology
3. Invasive Cardiology
4. Rheumatology/Physiatry
5. Emergency Medicine

So I was wondering how hard it is typically for DOs to match into these fields. In all honesty, I really want to do Opthalmology (although I would be extremely happy still with neurology, gen surgery, or anesthesiology), but I know even if I have an MD that the odds will be against me to get into it. That's why I'm mostly wondering about the other fields, because, with the exception of anesthesiology, and cardiology, these fields are traditionally not too difficult to get into (so I think I'm being generally reasonable), but would being a DO put me at a significant disadvantage for anything besides Opthalmology?

thanks

I think if you're seriously contemplating Ophthalmology you should learn how to spell it correctly.

I agree with Old_Mil's advice here (something that doesn't happen often). Except for the USMLE Step 3 advice.

 

[countthestars]

#1 You get access to a few more programs that are DO only, like someone else said, big fish in a small pond.

Yea, but some (but NOT ALL) of those DO only programs aren't very desired due to either location, lack of research/academics, and the such. Again, its program specific. Plus some progs make you do an additional rotational year. Some people might not want to have another year of training on top of everything else.

#2 You get 2 chances to match. First the DO match in Feb and then the MD match in march.

Yea, while its true you can apply to both the DO and MD match, if you do happen to match into a DO program, then you are automatically dropped from the MD match. It doesn't even matter if you matched MD. Since the DO match happens sooner, if you are matched DO, that's it. You have to go there.

#3 With those things being said. You're really going to have to work this to your max advantage. Rock the boards and do audition rotations. I'm not a huge advocate of DO's taking the USMLE, but you will need to and do great on it.

totally agree, you have to make yourself the best applicant possible. I mean, its not like Derm and Plastics residency's are handed out to MD students. They also have to work hard to get into the competeive fields.

 

[psychbender]

Keep in mind that going Optho, Gen Surg, Anesthesiology, EM, or to the sort of IM program that will put you in the running for cards will absolutely require that you complete the steps of the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX.

Not true. I never took the USMLE, and still managed several interview invitations with civilian allopathic Anesthesiology residencies, and just matched with the Army. There are a few (such as UVA) that will outright reject you if you do not take the USMLE, but that is not typically the case.

 

[LadyGrey]

tho, Gen Surg, Anesthesiology, EM, or to the sort of IM program that will put you in the running for cards will absolutely require that you complete the steps of the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX.

Sticking to what I sorta know (EM), I'm not sure that it's essential to take Step 1 & 2 of the USMLE. Probably depends on how you do on Step 1. Do well, and no one really looks at your Step 2.

 

[bigDinLV]

Yea, but some (but NOT ALL) of those DO only programs aren't very desired due to either location, lack of research/academics, and the such. Again, its program specific. Plus some progs make you do an additional rotational year. Some people might not want to have another year of training on top of everything else.

Yea, while its true you can apply to both the DO and MD match, if you do happen to match into a DO program, then you are automatically dropped from the MD match. It doesn't even matter if you matched MD. Since the DO match happens sooner, if you are matched DO, that's it. You have to go there.

totally agree, you have to make yourself the best applicant possible. I mean, its not like Derm and Plastics residency's are handed out to MD students. They also have to work hard to get into the competeive fields.

Ummm yea.. All programs have to be evaluated for location and acedemics. Not just DO programs.

Most DOs know if they match DO in Feb they are pulled from the MD match. The point is, you get a second chance if your first try doesn't work out. But matching Ophtho anywhere is pretty good, so I wouldn't complain if I went into a DO program and got pulled from the MD match. Bottom line with this is you would really prefer a MD program, don't rank a DO program you aren't willing to go to.

It's always great when someone who has never even created an ERAS account starts trying to trump basic info when you try to help someone out.

 

[bigDinLV]

Sticking to what I sorta know (EM), I'm not sure that it's essential to take Step 1 & 2 of the USMLE. Probably depends on how you do on Step 1. Do well, and no one really looks at your Step 2.

Ironic huh.. In another thread you were telling me about not taking the USMLE hurting your chances of matching. Now here for a really highly competetive specialty you say that it might not be essential. I actually said they would need to take it in this situation

 

[ralphlaurenfan]

neuro, rheum, and physiatry should not be a problem. If you go into neuro you could always do neuro-optho fellowship which you might enjoy if you're really interested in eyes.

what is neuro-optho?

 

[bjolly]

it's a subspecialty of neurology that deals with visual problems which arise in the nervous system (brain & cranial nerves) rather than in the eyes.

 

[jumpingjax]

Hi,

I'm still a pre-med, so please excuse my ignorance about this, but (even though it's early), I have an interest in these fields, listed in order of preferance:

1. Neurology/Opthalmology
2. General Surgery/Anesthesiology
3. Invasive Cardiology
4. Rheumatology/Physiatry
5. Emergency Medicine

So I was wondering how hard it is typically for DOs to match into these fields. In all honesty, I really want to do Opthalmology (although I would be extremely happy still with neurology, gen surgery, or anesthesiology), but I know even if I have an MD that the odds will be against me to get into it. That's why I'm mostly wondering about the other fields, because, with the exception of anesthesiology, and cardiology, these fields are traditionally not too difficult to get into (so I think I'm being generally reasonable), but would being a DO put me at a significant disadvantage for anything besides Opthalmology?

thanks

First of all, a very small % of people actually end up in the specialty they think they want to do as pre-meds.

Second, Optho is not competetive anymore - it falls in the moderate category along with EM and Anesthesia. I know several people who matched into optho who were in the bottom third of my class. Cards and Rheum are IM fellowships. Neurology and PMR will take anyone with a pulse.

Finally, I personally would stick with the MD route. Its not impossible to match into EM, Anesthesia, or Optho as a DO, but for the most part you will be looking for community rather than univeristy programs and it will generally be harder to match than your MD equivalent (boards, rank, letters, etc, all being equal).

People are going to throw all sorts of anecdotal bs about knowing DO's at this university program or that university program. Pull up the department websites for a bunch of univeristy programs and do some counting - the numbers don't lie.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

I can only speak towards surgery, but it seems like DO students who:

1. are realistic about their chances
2. work hard
3. jump through the necessary hoops (i.e. USMLE, lots of away rotations)
4. know how to play the match and/or matches
5. are flexible

all end up matching in General Surgery. Some at DO programs, some at MD. Either way, in 5-7 years they'll all be surgeons. And more importantly, most are happy with how things turned out.

I would suspect that the above is true for all but the most competitive specialties. As a general rule, you should underestimate your own desirability as an applicant, and you will:

1. be humble >>>> which means people will like you
2. work hard to get good grades, board scores, etc
3. put in the necessary time on away rotations
4. put in the required efforts to get good evals, LORs, etc
5. apply very widely
6. play the Match game well
7. surprise yourself by matching at a good place

My 2 cents anyways.

 

[ralphlaurenfan]

Second, Optho is not competetive anymore - it falls in the moderate category along with EM and Anesthesia. I know several people who matched into optho who were in the bottom third of my class. Cards and Rheum are IM fellowships. Neurology and PMR will take anyone with a pulse.

Are you sure? I thought the general consensus is that optho is incredibly hard to get into. This is going to sound rude (trust me, not trying to be rude), but you said seems mostly like anecdotal evidence, so do you have something more concrete to prove what you're saying?

Finally, I personally would stick with the MD route. Its not impossible to match into EM, Anesthesia, or Optho as a DO, but for the most part you will be looking for community rather than univeristy programs and it will generally be harder to match than your MD equivalent (boards, rank, letters, etc, all being equal).

People are going to throw all sorts of anecdotal bs about knowing DO's at this university program or that university program. Pull up the department websites for a bunch of univeristy programs and do some counting - the numbers don't lie.

I know. I'm still aiming for an MD, but I'm wondering if I can still do what I want even if I go to a DO school for personal reasons. I know that I want to work on the east coast for example, so let's say that I get into an MD school in some random state like Arkansas vs a DO school in Philly or NYC. I might want to choose the DO school because I would be happier there, even though it's not an MD school. That's why I'm wondering just HOW difficult it is to get into the specialties I'm considering. But then again, I'm also slightly considering dentistry, so this could be moot, but I think it's still good to know al lthe facts.

Also, in general, what are the "better" DO schools? I've heard good things about PCOM, NYCOM (I think, could be wrong on this one), CCOM, and AZCOM. Are these the consensus top tier DOs or what?

 

[EM2BE]

As for the "better" DO schools, I can't help you. All the advice I can give you, no matter the path you decide to take, is that your education is what you make of it. I've known people from some of the schools you listed, some were very intelligent and some not so much. If you can self-motivate, you will do well no matter where you go.

One more thing: No single person is highly satisfied with their education. After finishing and looking back, they may say they are satisfied, but while in the first few years, pretty much everyone gripes about the education in one way or another.

 

[homeboy]

Being a DO doesn't limit your options, but anyone that tells you you're as competitive as an MD applicant for every ACGME residency spot is full of it.

Ortho is an example...if you go DO and want ortho, you're basically accepting the fact you'll be in Michigan or Ohio for 5 yrs in an AOA program. If you're ok with that, fine, no biggie; I'm sure most of them will give you great training. But there's really only a HANDFUL of them...and talk to someone who matched ortho...the whole AOA ORTHO match is a JOKE...it's not a match, it's basically a pre-match, need-to-rotate-at-the-institution deal...that kind of crap doesn't happen in the ACGME.

And anyone that says ophto is NOT competitve can only be referring to DO ophtho...MD ophtho is intense, don't let anyeone tell you otherwise.

If you have the choice between MD and DO, go MD. Why make your life harder than it's already going to be if you're thinking specialty (though like everyone else says, you're not going to end up doing what you initially set out to do).

 

[bbake87]

I'm going into Neuro, and by no means am a super-genius (only a regular genius). Not that hard. I interviewed at only allo places, and it is quite DO friendly. PM me with any questions.

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

Second, Optho is not competetive anymore - it falls in the moderate category along with EM and Anesthesia. I know several people who matched into optho who were in the bottom third of my class.

OpHtho (note spelling) is very competitive (note spelling again) -- certainly more than both EM and Anesthesia. Not sure where you're getting your facts from my friend.

I suggest you pull up the SF Match stats. In 2008, the average USMLE Step 1 score was 232 and will likely go up even higher this year.

And anyone that says ophto is NOT competitive can only be referring to DO ophtho...MD ophtho is intense, don't let anyeone tell you otherwise.

Thank you.

 

[Doctor Chicago]

I understand what you meant. And it was further clarified by your "afterthought" that DOs have their own residencies. You approached the question with the same blinders that 90% of the people on SDN do, reciting the mantra of USMD>DO>IMG, but work hard and.......

I'm suggesting that it might be wise for many pre-meds to make a paradigm shift. Rather than focusing on the limitations encountered by DOs in some MD residencies, focus on the 10^16 lb elephant in the room. DOs have a protected route to specialize with less competition. If you want to be a brain surgeon, it's a no-brainer.

Unintended pun.

I would love to hear from other people about this. Statistically, it makes sense to me that it would be easier for a DO student to match into certain competitive fields such as ortho (be it a DO residency) than his/her equally hard-working and intelligent MD counterpart.
However, I have heard the same thing from almost everyone I have talked to and they tell me, "go to a DO school if you prefer their philosophy or prefer a particular school, but realize that you'll have a more difficult time going into a competitive residency than your MD counterparts...but work hard and you can do anything."
I obviously realize that if I work hard enough, I can specialize in anything, but telling me that doesn't do much for me. I think that this early in the game (deciding which school to attend) it is about putting yourself in the best possible position. Who knows, I may want to go into family practice, but it is about leaving all my options open.
There is relatively no DO-bias in Chicago, where I live, plan to attend school, and one day practice. I am the son of a MD and have been taught from a young age that DO=MD, and I don't really care about the letters. So, I have no preference between the two and am deciding between Loyola (Stritch) and Midwestern (CCOM). I am strongly considering going to CCOM because I feel that as a DO, I will have an easier time matching into an ortho residency (for example) than if I went to Loyola. Just like bullethead said "big fish, small pond." Thoughts?

 

[Lamborghini1315]

I would love to hear from other people about this. Statistically, it makes sense to me that it would be easier for a DO student to match into certain competitive fields such as ortho (be it a DO residency) than his/her equally hard-working and intelligent MD counterpart.
However, I have heard the same thing from almost everyone I have talked to and they tell me, "go to a DO school if you prefer their philosophy or prefer a particular school, but realize that you'll have a more difficult time going into a competitive residency than your MD counterparts...but work hard and you can do anything."
I obviously realize that if I work hard enough, I can specialize in anything, but telling me that doesn't do much for me. I think that this early in the game (deciding which school to attend) it is about putting yourself in the best possible position. Who knows, I may want to go into family practice, but it is about leaving all my options open.
There is relatively no DO-bias in Chicago, where I live, plan to attend school, and one day practice. I am the son of a MD and have been taught from a young age that DO=MD, and I don't really care about the letters. So, I have no preference between the two and am deciding between Loyola (Stritch) and Midwestern (CCOM). I am strongly considering going to CCOM because I feel that as a DO, I will have an easier time matching into an ortho residency (for example) than if I went to Loyola. Just like bullethead said "big fish, small pond." Thoughts?

Ok let me dispell a myth for ya, while you think statistically being a DO might give you an upper hand in fields like derm, ortho you should keep in mind that the no. of derm, ortho residencies in the DO world are negligible compared to the ACGME spots. If you have 15 spots (AOA) v 1000 spots (ACGME), the competition in both sides will go up..here's why?!? In the AOA you have more applications fighting for a shot in a scarce world whereas in the ACGME world you have a lot of competitive applicants fighting for a bit higher number of spots that are available although due to similar stats (USMLE, Research, letters) there will be a lot of tie breakers and broken hearts. Anyways, unless AOA works on opening up more residency programs in those fields..the competition is really the same. In general ACGME has more residencies in non-primary care fields in relative terms (# of graduating MDs) compared to the AOA.

 

[stonewall22]

I would love to hear from other people about this. Statistically, it makes sense to me that it would be easier for a DO student to match into certain competitive fields such as ortho (be it a DO residency) than his/her equally hard-working and intelligent MD counterpart.
However, I have heard the same thing from almost everyone I have talked to and they tell me, "go to a DO school if you prefer their philosophy or prefer a particular school, but realize that you'll have a more difficult time going into a competitive residency than your MD counterparts...but work hard and you can do anything."
I obviously realize that if I work hard enough, I can specialize in anything, but telling me that doesn't do much for me. I think that this early in the game (deciding which school to attend) it is about putting yourself in the best possible position. Who knows, I may want to go into family practice, but it is about leaving all my options open.
There is relatively no DO-bias in Chicago, where I live, plan to attend school, and one day practice. I am the son of a MD and have been taught from a young age that DO=MD, and I don't really care about the letters. So, I have no preference between the two and am deciding between Loyola (Stritch) and Midwestern (CCOM). I am strongly considering going to CCOM because I feel that as a DO, I will have an easier time matching into an ortho residency (for example) than if I went to Loyola. Just like bullethead said "big fish, small pond." Thoughts?

I have absolutely no hard numbers to back up what I'm about to say, but this is information that was passed from me from a current resident's PD. How's that for a chain. Anyway, there are ~75 first year ortho spots (this I could back up), and numerous programs that received > 125 applications (this I can't back up without making some calls, but it sounds plausible). So assuming there were only 125 applicants (seems unlikely to me that every single applicant applied to some of the programs, so I would guess there were more), that's only ~60% match rate, which is much worse than the ACGME world (I've heard ~80% match). But DOs have two matches, right? What's the likelihood that a DO that couldn't match AOA ortho will match ACGME ortho? Competitive either way.

 

[hokiedo2012]

2 DOs matched ortho ACGME in '08 (636 total positions, of which 635 were filled). 2, 3, 4, 1 for 2007-2004 respectively.

Keep in mind that if you match AOA ortho you are automatically pulled from ACGME ortho - so those 2 DOs who matched last year either: a) were not succesfully AOA matched, but then matched ACGME ortho or b) were ballsy enough to skip AOA match and put all their eggs into the ACGME basket.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I have absolutely no hard numbers to back up what I'm about to say, but this is information that was passed from me from a current resident's PD. How's that for a chain. Anyway, there are ~75 first year ortho spots (this I could back up), and numerous programs that received > 125 applications (this I can't back up without making some calls, but it sounds plausible). So assuming there were only 125 applicants (seems unlikely to me that every single applicant applied to some of the programs, so I would guess there were more), that's only ~60% match rate, which is much worse than the ACGME world (I've heard ~80% match). But DOs have two matches, right? What's the likelihood that a DO that couldn't match AOA ortho will match ACGME ortho? Competitive either way.

Definitely competitive either way, but I also think the applicant pools and what the PDs are looking for are very different. For example, with MD applicants to an ACGME program, everyone is going to have High step I, ortho research, good pre-clinical and clinical marks and be applying randomly to programs. For AOA residencies, applicants will also have high COMLEX, good pre/clinical grades, etc but PDs also want them to rotate in their programs and present letters from DO orthos. Both competitive, but different applicant pools. If you think you can make yourself stand out more in the second category, ie rotate at the program and really make an impression, opposed to tons of research ... then the numbers become a little different than just straight numbers. I've heard people support what doc chicago was saying before, and I've also heard go an MD school no matter what ... so probably go where you think you can excel and stand out.

 

[cliquesh]

But those low numbers also reflect the number of applicants. There were around 12 DOs applying for ACGME ortho, and who knows what their stats were.

At any rate, the osteopathic class of 2013 will have about 4,800 members, about 1200 more than the class of 2008. The class size of allopathic schools are also on the rise. Yet, despite the growing class sizes of medical schools, allopathic and osteopathic alike, I've been reading that GME funding is going to likely decrease or, at best, remain stagnate in upcoming years. So where are we all going to train? Anyone know what the AOA is going to do about this? And does anyone know what % of the medicare funding does the AOA get to establish and maintain residencies? Ugh, its kind of scary.

 

[JaggerPlate]

But those low numbers also reflect the number of applicants. There were around 12 DOs applying for ACGME ortho, and who knows what their stats were.

At any rate, the osteopathic class of 2013 will have about 4,800 members, about 1200 more than the class of 2008. The class size of allopathic schools are also on the rise. Yet, despite the growing class sizes of medical schools, allopathic and osteopathic alike, I've been reading that GME funding is going to likely decrease or, at best, remain stagnate in upcoming years. So where are we all going to train? Anyone know what the AOA is going to do about this? And does anyone know what % of the medicare funding does the AOA get to establish and maintain residencies? Ugh, its kind of scary.

Nope, I don't think anyone is really sure what the AOA plans to do about GME. I think everyone would love a hault on the opening of new schools and funds to go into establishing more residency programs. I don't think the sky is falling, but hopefully the increasing numbers all around will be a clue to beef up AOA reisdencies ... and a way to get more DOs into AOA residencies (though they definitely need the ACGME spots right now).

 

[danzman]

But those low numbers also reflect the number of applicants. There were around 12 DOs applying for ACGME ortho, and who knows what their stats were.

At any rate, the osteopathic class of 2013 will have about 4,800 members, about 1200 more than the class of 2008. The class size of allopathic schools are also on the rise. Yet, despite the growing class sizes of medical schools, allopathic and osteopathic alike, I've been reading that GME funding is going to likely decrease or, at best, remain stagnate in upcoming years. So where are we all going to train? Anyone know what the AOA is going to do about this? And does anyone know what % of the medicare funding does the AOA get to establish and maintain residencies? Ugh, its kind of scary.

AOA will be unable to do anything. We had the president elect come and give us a presentation on the "future of the DO." What a bunch on nonsense. He had nothing good to say about the future. It only made matters worse that all the question were about the DO name and how we should change it. In a nutshell this was his answer to all the questions:
1. Should we change the name?
"No, we cant, it will be to hard because of all the state laws around it. Also there are no names left, DOM in taken by oriental medicine. No one cares stop talking about it."
2. When can we practice in other countries?
"Probably never. Too much red tape and legal nonsense. Its completely out of our hand. Only chance you have is if you know someone politicaly connected in the country. Stop talking about it."
3. What about all the new schools opening up, where will they do residencies?
"Who knows. Family medicine has a ton of open spots. Stop asking about it"
4. So what If I don't want to do family med?
"Well, study hard. We can't do anything about GME because medicaid handles it. We are powerless until the system changes. Stop asking about it."
5. So, since we have fewer spots every year, tuition keeps going up, our insurance is going up, money is going down, we cant work anyplace else, and people will always ask just what the heck a DO is, do you have any good news for us?
We have a great new website.

That was it. The only good thing he had to offer was a new website that he hoped would really educated the public about DO's. In the end, he came off really looking like a tool because he flat out would not give anyone a solid response. All he kept saying was "its out of our hands, there is nothing we can do." Really makes the future look bright. I should have been a car mechanic.

 

[JaggerPlate]

AOA will be unable to do anything. We had the president elect come and give us a presentation on the "future of the DO." What a bunch on nonsense. He had nothing good to say about the future. It only made matters worse that all the question were about the DO name and how we should change it. In a nutshell this was his answer to all the questions:
1. Should we change the name?
"No, we cant, it will be to hard because of all the state laws around it. Also there are no names left, DOM in taken by oriental medicine. No one cares stop talking about it."
2. When can we practice in other countries?
"Probably never. Too much red tape and legal nonsense. Its completely out of our hand. Only chance you have is if you know someone politicaly connected in the country. Stop talking about it."
3. What about all the new schools opening up, where will they do residencies?
"Who knows. Family medicine has a ton of open spots. Stop asking about it"
4. So what If I don't want to do family med?
"Well, study hard. We can't do anything about GME because medicaid handles it. We are powerless until the system changes. Stop asking about it."
5. So, since we have fewer spots every year, tuition keeps going up, our insurance is going up, money is going down, we cant work anyplace else, and people will always ask just what the heck a DO is, do you have any good news for us?
We have a great new website.

That was it. The only good thing he had to offer was a new website that he hoped would really educated the public about DO's. In the end, he came off really looking like a tool because he flat out would not give anyone a solid response. All he kept saying was "its out of our hands, there is nothing we can do." Really makes the future look bright. I should have been a car mechanic.

WOW ... seriously unreal.

 

[Doctor Chicago]

wow, it sounds like its only gonna get more difficult to attain competitive residencies as a DO...a 33% increase in DOs without any additional residency spots is a HUGE factor to consider

 

[JaggerPlate]

wow, it sounds like its only gonna get more difficult to attain competitive residencies as a DO...a 33% increase in DOs without any additional residency spots is a HUGE factor to consider

Where did you get 33% from?? Remember that MD sizes are increasing by like 20% too ... so competitive will continue to be very competitive. Just be a baller, whatever you choose.

 

[Doctor Chicago]

Where did you get 33% from?? Remember that MD sizes are increasing by like 20% too ... so competitive will continue to be very competitive. Just be a baller, whatever you choose.

Well 3600 with an increase of 1200 to 4800 would be a 33% increase right? I am still leaning towards CCOM because I feel that it is a better fit for me as a school.
Yeah Jagger you are definitely right...I think I spend too much time thinking about residencies and what I will/won't be able to specialize in and I haven't even started medical school yet. I should just focus on doing my best, not worry about things I can't control, and hopefully things will fall into place.

MD sizes are increasing by 20% just for the class of 2013?

 

[niranjan162]

theyre not gonna do anything. They already have the perfect solution. By increasing class sizes but not residencies people will end up having to fill the FP spots that are usually vacant. Primary care crisis solved!

 

[Doctor Chicago]

ah...im an idiot...nvm...its been a 33% increase since class of 2008, not class of 2012 haha

 

[utubefamous]

wow, it sounds like its only gonna get more difficult to attain competitive residencies as a DO...a 33% increase in DOs without any additional residency spots is a HUGE factor to consider

about half of DO only residencies went unfilled last year.. the only real problem is that there's a disproportionate number of grads who want to specialize vs going rural family med.. which is ironically where the most amount of residency spots are considering the nature of osteopathic medicine.

 

[cliquesh]

Well, that information is just depressing. I really have no interest in family medicine, internal medicine would be fine, but I'd be really bummed being forced into FM.

This is really starting to bug me the more I think about it. WTF was the AOA thinking when they opened up new schools and allowing existing ones to expand without opening a proportaional amount of residencies? That is just irresponsible behavior. Moreover, if you didn't know already, there are 7 more DO schools in the works. I hope they all get canceled. The AOA should have just kept the DO community small, and improved the quailty of all aspects of the profession. But, no. They decided to go for an all out blitz.

 

[Lamborghini1315]

Well, that information is just depressing. I really have no interest in family medicine, internal medicine would be fine, but I'd be really bummed being forced into FM.

This is really starting to bug me the more I think about it. WTF was the AOA thinking when they opened up new schools and allowing existing ones to expand without opening a proportaional amount of residencies? That is just irresponsible behavior. Moreover, if you didn't know already, there are 7 more DO schools in the works. I hope they all get canceled. The AOA should have just kept the DO community small, and improved the quailty of all aspects of the profession. But, no. They decided to go for an all out blitz.

Hence why many hardworking-ambitious DO's go into the ACGME match coz they don't want to be told by the AOA that they can't be radiologists anymore due to lack of positions. No one in the right mind will compromise when it comes to their career, you have to make a diligent educated choice. By choosing the ACGME route you won't be guaranteed your spot but it gives you more options in the field you are interested, thus its imp that you gauge your chances sincerely and enter the ACGME match. Just don't go the allopathic route with sub optimal stats hoping to be a dermatologist..not happening! If you do your part of taking care of wat's in your control (boards, shelves etc) rest should fall in place. Also AOA has to recognize the problem at hand in regards to post-graduate education or they are the one's that will take the big hit by losing many of their graduates.

 

[utubefamous]

well it gets worse to tell you the truth.. after that half or so of the osteopathic positions go unmatched it isn't like a foreign grad can come in and make use of that spot as is what tends to happen with the allopathic residencies that go unfilled by us seniors.. grateful as they would most likely be. aoa residencies just stays unfilled and waste the funding to my knowledge.

 

[DOinMS]

AOA will be unable to do anything. We had the president elect come and give us a presentation on the "future of the DO." What a bunch on nonsense. He had nothing good to say about the future. It only made matters worse that all the question were about the DO name and how we should change it. In a nutshell this was his answer to all the questions:
1. Should we change the name?
"No, we cant, it will be to hard because of all the state laws around it. Also there are no names left, DOM in taken by oriental medicine. No one cares stop talking about it."
2. When can we practice in other countries?
"Probably never. Too much red tape and legal nonsense. Its completely out of our hand. Only chance you have is if you know someone politicaly connected in the country. Stop talking about it."
3. What about all the new schools opening up, where will they do residencies?
"Who knows. Family medicine has a ton of open spots. Stop asking about it"
4. So what If I don't want to do family med?
"Well, study hard. We can't do anything about GME because medicaid handles it. We are powerless until the system changes. Stop asking about it."
5. So, since we have fewer spots every year, tuition keeps going up, our insurance is going up, money is going down, we cant work anyplace else, and people will always ask just what the heck a DO is, do you have any good news for us?
We have a great new website.

That was it. The only good thing he had to offer was a new website that he hoped would really educated the public about DO's. In the end, he came off really looking like a tool because he flat out would not give anyone a solid response. All he kept saying was "its out of our hands, there is nothing we can do." Really makes the future look bright. I should have been a car mechanic.

Not surprising in the least. Just look at the president's blog and you can see that he doesn't have a viable solution for any of the problems. The AOA will continue to form committees to study the problems, the meetings will consist of much *** kissing and ego-stroking, and in the end nothing will change.

theyre not gonna do anything. They already have the perfect solution. By increasing class sizes but not residencies people will end up having to fill the FP spots that are usually vacant. Primary care crisis solved!

Bingo!!

WTF was the AOA thinking when they opened up new schools and allowing existing ones to expand without opening a proportaional amount of residencies?

Answer: $$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[niranjan162]

Not surprising in the least. Just look at the president's blog and you can see that he doesn't have a viable solution for any of the problems. The AOA will continue to form committees to study the problems, the meetings will consist of much *** kissing and ego-stroking, and in the end nothing will change.

how do we go about getting better leadership/representation?

 

[JaggerPlate]

how do we go about getting better leadership/representation?

Take the complaints to the right people.

 

[Gut Shot]

about half of DO only residencies went unfilled last year..

Were those funded positions or approved positions? There is a world of difference.

 

[BruceBanner]

Keep in mind that going Optho, Gen Surg, Anesthesiology, EM, or to the sort of IM program that will put you in the running for cards will absolutely require that you complete the steps of the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX.

UNLESS you do a DO-only residency. Anesthesia is actually pretty DO-friendly.

It is true, though that some of the big-time academic programs pretty much dont take DO's as residents. Fellows, sometimes, but there is still some lingering elitism and "good ol' boy" mentality.

The guy who pays my salary is a PD for Ortho at MGH. He has never discouraged me from going DO, but he did tell me that Harvard (at least Harvard Ortho) doesn't take DO residents. Fellows, yes. The first MGH Trauma fellow was a DO. True story.

I cant speak for other specialties though.

 

[DOdoc2B4]

A DO CAN SPECIALIZE IN......
Addiction Medicine
Anesthesiology
Asthma, Allergy & Immunology
Breast-Cancer Surgery
Cardiac Surgery
Cardiology
Colorectal Surgery
Critical Care
Dermatology
Emergency Medicine
Endocrinology
Family Medicine
Gastroenterology
General Surgery
Geriatrics
Gynecologic Oncology
Gynecology
Hand Surgery
Head and Neck Surgery
Headache
Hematology
Infectious Diseases
Infertility Medicine
Internal Medicine
Neonatology
Nephrology
Neurology
Neuro-ophthalmology
Neurosurgery
Nuclear Medicine
Obstetrics and Gynecology
Oncology- Medical
Oncology- Radiation
Ophthalmology
Oral/Maxillofacial Surgery
Orthopedic Surgery
Osteopathic Manipulation Therapy
Otolaryngology (ENT)
Otology
Pain Management
Pathology
Pediatrics
Pediatric Specialists
Perinatology
Physiatry
Physical Rehabilitation
Plastic/Reconstructive Surgery
Podiatry
Prostate Care
Psychiatry
Psychology
Pulmonary Medicine
Radiology
Rheumatology
Sleep Disorders
Sports Medicine
Thoracic Surgery
Transplant Surgery
Trauma Surgery
Urology
Vascular Surgery





-2007, AMA.org

found that in another thread

 

[hamlinbeach]

A DO CAN SPECIALIZE IN......
Addiction Medicine
Anesthesiology
Asthma, Allergy & Immunology
Breast-Cancer Surgery
Cardiac Surgery
Cardiology
Colorectal Surgery
Critical Care
Dermatology
Emergency Medicine
Endocrinology
Family Medicine
Gastroenterology
General Surgery
Geriatrics
Gynecologic Oncology
Gynecology
Hand Surgery
Head and Neck Surgery
Headache
Hematology
Infectious Diseases
Infertility Medicine
Internal Medicine
Neonatology
Nephrology
Neurology
Neuro-ophthalmology
Neurosurgery
Nuclear Medicine
Obstetrics and Gynecology
Oncology- Medical
Oncology- Radiation
Ophthalmology
Oral/Maxillofacial Surgery
Orthopedic Surgery
Osteopathic Manipulation Therapy
Otolaryngology (ENT)
Otology
Pain Management
Pathology
Pediatrics
Pediatric Specialists
Perinatology
Physiatry
Physical Rehabilitation
Plastic/Reconstructive Surgery
Podiatry
Prostate Care
Psychiatry
Psychology
Pulmonary Medicine
Radiology
Rheumatology
Sleep Disorders
Sports Medicine
Thoracic Surgery
Transplant Surgery
Trauma Surgery
Urology
Vascular Surgery





-2007, AMA.org

found that in another thread

You can treat the feet as a D.O. (ortho foot and ankle... or palliative care as a primary care doc...) but you can't become a podiatrist with any degree except D.P.M. and a Podiatric Medicine and Surgery residency