Question: As a DO how does one enter an MD residency?

[macbookpro45]

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I'm a little confused. I have done some research but this merger business has me coming up with a lot of questions and very few answers.

As a DO, you sit for the comlex so to enter an MD residency do you need to sit for usmle as well?

Also, what are the limitations with a DO residency in terms of options? Can I do general surgery or dermatology?

 

[macbookpro45]

also, how different are the USMLE and comlex exams?

 

[BillrothI]

As a DO, you sit for the comlex so to enter an MD residency do you need to sit for usmle as well?

Yes.

Also, what are the limitations with a DO residency in terms of options? Can I do general surgery or dermatology?

You can do anything an MD can do, but you may find that the road to get there is much more difficult. You will have to perform exceptionally well on the boards to have a shot.

Good luck!

-Bill R.

 

[Dreamstoo]

I'm a little confused. I have done some research but this merger business has me coming up with a lot of questions and very few answers.

As a DO, you sit for the comlex so to enter an MD residency do you need to sit for usmle as well?

Also, what are the limitations with a DO residency in terms of options? Can I do general surgery or dermatology?

It is possible. I have a friend who went to LECOM and landed residency in a very respected MD program (however, it was in a weaker medical field then you have listed). However I do know of a cardiologist who I believe attended an ivy league residency from a DO school. It is possible but it will take a lot of work and possibly connections may play a role. I read somewhere on this website about some PCOM graduates going into competitive medical fields into residencies from Harvard and Mayo.

 

[cliquesh]

I'm a little confused. I have done some research but this merger business has me coming up with a lot of questions and very few answers.

As a DO, you sit for the comlex so to enter an MD residency do you need to sit for usmle as well?

Also, what are the limitations with a DO residency in terms of options? Can I do general surgery or dermatology?

As a DO you must take the comlex. You have the option to take the usmle. You do not need to take the usmle to match into an MD program, but it does make it easier. It's like comparing apples to oranges versus oranges to oranges. I'd recommend all DO students take the usmle. The DO match rate for MD residencies is 75% overall.

Some MD fields are more DO friendly than others. Derm, rad onc and the surgical subspecilities are the least DO friendly. Of the 2000 DOs who matched a MD residency last year, 4 matched derm, 2 matched rad onc, 1 matched ENT, 6 matched ortho, 2 matched neurosurgery. There is no data for urology and opthamology.

General surgery and radiology are probably the next tier, in terms of DO friendliness, with radiology being more friendly than gen surgery. 79 DOs matched MD radiology and 47 matched MD general surgery.

Everything else is relatively DO friendly. However, with that said, no matter how well you do in osteopathic medicial school top programs will probably be out of reach for you as a DO.

In terms of fellowships, about 66% of DOs who applied to MD cardiology and hem/onc matched, and 33% of DOs who applied MD GI matched. These are the most competitive internal medicine fellowships.

Here is data for MD residencies http://b83c73bcf0e7ca356c80-e8560f4...ontent/uploads/2013/08/resultsanddata2013.pdf

For MD fellowships http://b83c73bcf0e7ca356c80-e8560f4...t/uploads/2013/08/chartingoutcomessms2011.pdf

There are roughly 2900 DO Post graduate training positions offered each year. Most are internships (600), family medicine (845) and internal medicine (570). Most other specialities are offered by the AOA, but there are few spots per year, especially for the high paying specilities. There were 135 general surgery spots and approximately 40 derm spots offered last year in the AOA match.

There were 4913 DO grads last year.

A list of all of the DO residencies http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/

A chart of the number of AOA residency spots per particular field https://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2013prgstats.html

 

[DrEnderW]

Great info by cliquesh, as always. Don't rely on anecdotal stories.

In regards to the residency merger, the AOA did not accept the proposed terms. It is uncertain what will happen in the future regarding this subject. Follow along on the med forums as the situation is continually discussed there.

 

[kj8210]

Not sure if this is a stupid question but whats the difference between doing a DO general surgical residency and an MD general surgical residency? Is it just that doing an MD residency is required for certain subspecialties?

 

[cliquesh]

Not sure if this is a stupid question but whats the difference between doing a DO general surgical residency and an MD general surgical residency? Is it just that doing an MD residency is required for certain subspecialties?

If you do an osteopathic, or AOA, residency you'll be board certified by the American board of osteopathic surgery. If you do an MD, or Acgme residency, you'll be board certified by the American board of surgery.

Legally, your practicing rights will be the same and your salary will be the same.

Some employers will not hire AOA board certified physicians, but they are the minority of employers.

The training, on average, is probably better at Acgme programs. However, there are plenty of good/decent DO residencies.

In the past you could go from an AOA residency to an Acgme fellowship, which was pretty common in surgery. With the failed merger, however, AOA trained physicians are not elligiable for Acgme fellowships.

There are very few AOA surgical fellowships currently.

You'll probably hate surgery, like most people, after you get exposed to it.

 

[cliquesh]

also, how different are the USMLE and comlex exams?

Both exams cover similar material, but the style of questions are different. The usmle has long question stems with lots of lab values. The comlex, on the other hand, typically has pretty short, one line, questions.

I took both. I thought the usmle was easier because the questions were more straightforward. Other people would disagree with me, though.

I think DO schools prepare their students adequately for the usmle. About 45% of all DOs take the usmle. The average pass rate for the usmle step 1 was 91% for DOs compared to 94% for MDs last year.

The comlex level 1 pass rate is 92%.

 

[DrEnderW]

Not sure if this is a stupid question but whats the difference between doing a DO general surgical residency and an MD general surgical residency? Is it just that doing an MD residency is required for certain subspecialties?

Not necessarily. That's a good question and it's been discussed a lot lately. Some of the common sub-specializations, let's say breast, minimally invasive or colorectal for example, are mostly ACGME accredited. Currently, DOs can apply to these fellowships after doing an AOA (DO) or ACGME (MD) general surgery residency. However, wording in a new ACGME proposal might limit fellowships to ACGME trained physicians. This would make AOA trained physicians identically ineligible for those positions. It remains to be seen how things will shake down. You can read more about this on the Osteopathic forums as well.

There are still AOA fellowships available and fellowships in some sub-specialties not overseen by the ACGME. In other specialties, such as ortho, ENT, or NS, this may be less of an issue. Let's hope the wording gets changed. Regardless, you can become an excellent surgeon as a DO if you choice to be.

Hope this helps. I'm sure others that are more knowledgable will add to that.

 

[Hemorrage]

If you do an osteopathic, or AOA, residency you'll be board certified by the American board of osteopathic surgery. If you do an MD, or Acgme residency, you'll be board certified by the American board of surgery.

Legally, your practicing rights will be the same and your salary will be the same.

Some employers will not hire AOA board certified physicians, but they are the minority of employers.

The training, on average, is probably better at Acgme programs. However, there are plenty of good/decent DO residencies.

In the past you could go from an AOA residency to an Acgme fellowship, which was pretty common in surgery. With the failed merger, however, AOA trained physicians are not elligiable for Acgme fellowships.

There are very few AOA surgical fellowships currently.

You'll probably hate surgery, like most people, after you get exposed to it.

cliquesh, what exactly is the american board of "osteopathic" surgery? Is there some kind of difference in technique between an osteopathic surgeon vs. an allopathic surgeon?

 

[NurWollen]

cliquesh, what exactly is the american board of "osteopathic" surgery? Is there some kind of difference in technique between an osteopathic surgeon vs. an allopathic surgeon?

No, there's not. The DO world has it's own specialty boards that confer board certification, just like it has it's own accrediting bodies for DO schools and DO residencies (COCA and AOA vs LCME and ACGME.). Each specialty has it's own professional organization that represents DOs in a given specialty, just as each specialty in the MD world has it's own professional organization. Think of it as two separate, parallel systems that each essentially do the same thing. Now, in general (there are exceptions) if you are a DO who completes an ACGME (MD) residency, you will be eligible for board certification by the MD boards and professional organization for your specialty. Likewise, if you do DO residency, you'll be eligible for board certification and representation by the osteopathic organizations.

 

[Hemorrage]

No, there's not. The DO world has it's own specialty boards that confer board certification, just like it has it's own accrediting bodies for DO schools and DO residencies (COCA and AOA vs LCME and ACGME.). Each specialty has it's own professional organization that represents DOs in a given specialty, just as each specialty in the MD world has it's own professional organization. Think of it as two separate, parallel systems that each essentially do the same thing. Now, in general (there are exceptions) if you are a DO who completes an ACGME (MD) residency, you will be eligible for board certification by the MD boards and professional organization for your specialty. Likewise, if you do DO residency, you'll be eligible for board certification and representation by the osteopathic organizations.

So that makes perfect sense but i'm still wondering why there would be two boards of surgery for the exact same practice? Wouldn't it make much more sense to have just one?

 

[DrBowtie]

So that makes perfect sense but i'm still wondering why there would be two boards of surgery for the exact same practice? Wouldn't it make much more sense to have just one?

$$$$$$$$$

 

[NurWollen]

So that makes perfect sense but i'm still wondering why there would be two boards of surgery for the exact same practice? Wouldn't it make much more sense to have just one?

Why, to maintain our distinctiveness and core principles, of course! 🙂

 

[Lambo13]

Is an osteopathic student required to take all three steps of the USMLE to qualify for an MD residency?

 

[SLC]

Is an osteopathic student required to take all three steps of the USMLE to qualify for an MD residency?

No

Some (not a lot) MD residencies don't even require any of the steps of the USMLE. There are people who match with only COMLEX scores. But it is always in your vast interest to take the USMLE if you can get anywhere near or better than the average. It will be a disadvantage if you score poorly though. Risk vs. Benefit as with all things in medicine.

Also, step 3 is taken during residency (after the first year). So applicants only have two exam scores when they apply.

 

[ChineseKid]

Haven't seen any (data) regarding international/Canadian DO in regarding to residency matches. Thought I would ask here as there are quite a few knowledgeable posters.
In general, can I just assume that international/Canadian DOs will have an additional layer of difficulty on top of what's said?
i.e. if matching into a certain field in surgery is hard for USDO, it would be almost impossible for international/CanadianDOs?


TIA

 

[raymond33]

Haven't seen any (data) regarding international/Canadian DO in regarding to residency matches. Thought I would ask here as there are quite a few knowledgeable posters.
In general, can I just assume that international/Canadian DOs will have an additional layer of difficulty on top of what's said?
i.e. if matching into a certain field in surgery is hard for USDO, it would be almost impossible for international/CanadianDOs?


TIA

Don't we (canadians) doing DO schools just consider DO applicant when applying to residency? I would like to know too!

 

[SLC]

Haven't seen any (data) regarding international/Canadian DO in regarding to residency matches. Thought I would ask here as there are quite a few knowledgeable posters.
In general, can I just assume that international/Canadian DOs will have an additional layer of difficulty on top of what's said?
i.e. if matching into a certain field in surgery is hard for USDO, it would be almost impossible for international/CanadianDOs?


TIA

I'm not sure how that works, there may be visa issues etc.

But as far as being "foreign" I'd imagine you'd be a DO just like any other (American) DO. Foreign medical grads are foreign citizens who went to schools in foreign countries, and IMG's are American citizens who went to school in foreign countries. Neither of these describe a Canadian who goes to DO school.

 

[Instatewaiter]

So that makes perfect sense but i'm still wondering why there would be two boards of surgery for the exact same practice? Wouldn't it make much more sense to have just one?

A DO surgeon cuts the WHOLE patient. They don't just cut the patient based on the problem they came in with like MD surgeons.

 

[TeddyBoomBoom]

A DO surgeon cuts the WHOLE patient. [..] .

lol

 

[Haxx]

A DO surgeon cuts the WHOLE patient. They don't just cut the patient based on the problem they came in with like MD surgeons.

Shots Fired.