Question for a friend of mine!

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My buddy, a freshman pre-med, wants to know if taking organic chemistry over the summer (at our 4 year university) will be looked down on as opposed to taking the full year course. Thanks! 🙂
 
gonnif said:
not the most optimal way to do it
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Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Is that because it's looked down upon or because the time is compressed?
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I'd say not optimal in that it's tough in a shortened semester, b/c honestly having gone through the whole app process I struggle to think adcoms would actually care about it being done in the summer. There are far more meaningful things to notice or discriminate against.
 
I took them both over the same summer and it never affected me negatively. That was obviously not hindered by the fact that I did well.

Edit: Both = Organic 1 and 2
 
gonnif said:
Actually, at some schools summer courses, such as Ochem are looked down upon

http://www.upstate.edu/com/admissions/faqs.php
- Applicants should avoid taking more than one or two prerequisite science courses during the summer and avoid taking them at community colleges.
Click to expand...

Why though? Is a summer session considered less rigorous? My summer physics course covered the same material in half the time.
 
gonnif said:
Actually, at some schools summer courses, such as Ochem are looked down upon

http://www.upstate.edu/com/admissions/faqs.php
- Applicants should avoid taking more than one or two prerequisite science courses during the summer and avoid taking them at community colleges.
Click to expand...
On a tangent, how is looking down upon taking classes at CC not discrimination against less SES privileged students?
 
gonnif said:
it certainly can be viewed in that way and there have been rather heated discussions between the NAAHP and AAMC on the subject. however, I can only pass on my observational reality on this: many schools still have comments or policy that perceive CC as less rigorous and recommend seek coursework at more rigorous institutions

There are some medical schools that directly speak to this idea of community college courses. This may give a little better insight in how the underlying “culture” or “attitude” of admission committee members, whether a formal policy or not, may perceive applicants who choose summer or community college coursework. While this list is not exhaustive, it is representative enough to help advise students who are considering such a step.

SUNY Upstate College of Medicine
http://www.upstate.edu/com/admissions/faqs.php
“Applicants should avoid taking more than one or two prerequisite science courses during the summer and avoid taking them at community colleges.”

Ichan School of Medicine at Mount Sinai
http://icahn.mssm.edu/education/medical/admissions/regular-track/requirements
Q: Can I take my courses at a community college, or must I take them at a four-year college or university?
A: We have no requirement about where you take courses, though the Committee on Admissions does take that into consideration in evaluating your application.

Johns Hopkins Medical School
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/som/admissions/md/application_process/prerequisites_requirements.html
The School of Medicine accepts prerequisites completed at the community college level. In order to be competitive in the selection process, we encourage prospective applicants with community college prerequisites to supplement these courses by taking advanced courses in related subjects at their four year institution.

University of Florida College of Medicine
http://admissions.med.ufl.edu/faq/#community_college
Q: Can I take the prerequisite courses at my local community/junior college?
A: In order to create the most academically competitive application you should take all prerequisite courses at the most competitive bachelor’s degree granting institution where you can gain entrance. You should try to complete your pre-requisite courses at a four-year institution

Albert Einstein College of Medicine
https://www.einstein.yu.edu/educati...pplication-procedure/course-requirements.aspx
Whereas course work at a four-year college or university is our benchmark, if a student chooses to meet a competency component via an alternate route such as through laboratory experience, through an advanced placement course, a course taken at a community college, a course taken abroad (during a semester abroad for which the undergraduate U.S. degree-granting institution gives credit, or for which AMCAS will verify and report the grade), or an online course, he or she should seek guidance from his or her advisor to ensure that the option meets the above guidelines as well as the rigorous academic standard required by the Albert Einstein College of Medicine.

George Washington University
http://smhs.gwu.edu/academics/md-program/admissions/faqs#communitycollege
Do you accept community college credits?
Yes. The Committee on Admissions does accept coursework taken at a community college; however, it is preferable to have the pre-medical coursework taken at a four-year college or university.

Florida State University College of Medicine
http://med.fsu.edu/?page=mdAdmissions.admissionRequirement
Listed below is the pre-requisite coursework required for all matriculates to the FSU COM. Advanced Placement, CLEP, and dual enrollment credits fulfill the course requirements. However, courses taken in a traditional classroom at a four-year institution are considered to be more academically competitive.

Lewis Katz School of Medicine at Temple University
https://medicine.temple.edu/education/md-program/admissions/requirements
Two pre-requisite science courses can be fulfilled with AP credits, community college courses or through a study abroad program.

Texas A&M Health Sciences Center College of Medicine
http://medicine.tamhsc.edu/admissions/apply/index.html
Policy on AP Credits, Credits by Exam, and Dual Credit
We generally prefer that applicants take the prerequisite courses at 4-year accredited colleges and universities rather than utilize advanced placement credits, credits by exam, dual-credit, pass/fail course work or community college courses. We do not dismiss these credits; and, if they have been taken, we will accept them toward meeting the prerequisites. In fact, if an applicant has placed out of a required level course, we will also accept another course in that discipline at the same or higher level. Again, our preference is that applicants take graded courses at 4-year institutions, particularly the prerequisites in the biological sciences and the chemistry series.

Virginia Commonwealth University School of Medicine
http://www.medschool.vcu.edu/admissions/md/faq/#q43
Are community college classes accepted as prerequisite course credit?
They may be, but the Admissions Committee generally expects students to complete all prerequisite courses at a four-year undergraduate institution.

Yale
https://medicine.yale.edu/education/admissions/apply/premed.aspx
Pre-medical courses must be completed in a U.S., U.K., or Canadian college or university. U.S. Community College courses are acceptable, provided that the courses include laboratory work and are comparable in content to courses at four-year colleges, universities, or institutes of technology.

Weill Cornell
http://weill.cornell.edu/education/admissions/app_faq.html
Can I take my prerequisite courses at a Community College?
It is not recommended.
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This is quite disheartening. I know many people who attended CC because they were unable to afford going to a 4 year school or were immigrants and were unable to gain acceptance to a 4 year school since they completed their H/S in the countries they immigrated from. Do they also look down up0n taking classes at schools that are known grade inflators like Harvard? It shows a bit of hypocrisy if you ask me and a systemic way of discrimination against the less fortunate.
 
libertyyne said:
This is quite disheartening. I know many people who attended CC because they were unable to afford going to a 4 year school or were immigrants and were unable to gain acceptance to a 4 year school since they completed their H/S in the countries they immigrated from. Do they also look down up0n taking classes at schools that are known grade inflators like Harvard? It shows a bit of hypocrisy if you ask me and a systemic way of discrimination against the less fortunate.
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I bet they make special exceptions for people like that who had to overcome a lot of adversity. But I bet they aren't so kind to upper-middle class folks who are enrolled in a 4 year university and who have the resources/time to take such courses at their home institution (i.e. I bet they have a lot experience figuring who took classes at CCs because they had to and those who took them because they thought it would be easier).
 
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gonnif said:
it certainly can be viewed in that way and there have been rather heated discussions between the NAAHP and AAMC on the subject. however, I can only pass on my observational reality on this: many schools still have comments or policy that perceive CC as less rigorous and recommend seek coursework at more rigorous institutions

There are some medical schools that directly speak to this idea of community college courses. This may give a little better insight in how the underlying “culture” or “attitude” of admission committee members, whether a formal policy or not, may perceive applicants who choose summer or community college coursework. While this list is not exhaustive, it is representative enough to help advise students who are considering such a step.

SUNY Upstate College of Medicine
http://www.upstate.edu/com/admissions/faqs.php
“Applicants should avoid taking more than one or two prerequisite science courses during the summer and avoid taking them at community colleges.”

Ichan School of Medicine at Mount Sinai
http://icahn.mssm.edu/education/medical/admissions/regular-track/requirements
Q: Can I take my courses at a community college, or must I take them at a four-year college or university?
A: We have no requirement about where you take courses, though the Committee on Admissions does take that into consideration in evaluating your application.

Johns Hopkins Medical School
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/som/admissions/md/application_process/prerequisites_requirements.html
The School of Medicine accepts prerequisites completed at the community college level. In order to be competitive in the selection process, we encourage prospective applicants with community college prerequisites to supplement these courses by taking advanced courses in related subjects at their four year institution.

University of Florida College of Medicine
http://admissions.med.ufl.edu/faq/#community_college
Q: Can I take the prerequisite courses at my local community/junior college?
A: In order to create the most academically competitive application you should take all prerequisite courses at the most competitive bachelor’s degree granting institution where you can gain entrance. You should try to complete your pre-requisite courses at a four-year institution

Albert Einstein College of Medicine
https://www.einstein.yu.edu/educati...pplication-procedure/course-requirements.aspx
Whereas course work at a four-year college or university is our benchmark, if a student chooses to meet a competency component via an alternate route such as through laboratory experience, through an advanced placement course, a course taken at a community college, a course taken abroad (during a semester abroad for which the undergraduate U.S. degree-granting institution gives credit, or for which AMCAS will verify and report the grade), or an online course, he or she should seek guidance from his or her advisor to ensure that the option meets the above guidelines as well as the rigorous academic standard required by the Albert Einstein College of Medicine.

George Washington University
http://smhs.gwu.edu/academics/md-program/admissions/faqs#communitycollege
Do you accept community college credits?
Yes. The Committee on Admissions does accept coursework taken at a community college; however, it is preferable to have the pre-medical coursework taken at a four-year college or university.

Florida State University College of Medicine
http://med.fsu.edu/?page=mdAdmissions.admissionRequirement
Listed below is the pre-requisite coursework required for all matriculates to the FSU COM. Advanced Placement, CLEP, and dual enrollment credits fulfill the course requirements. However, courses taken in a traditional classroom at a four-year institution are considered to be more academically competitive.

Lewis Katz School of Medicine at Temple University
https://medicine.temple.edu/education/md-program/admissions/requirements
Two pre-requisite science courses can be fulfilled with AP credits, community college courses or through a study abroad program.

Texas A&M Health Sciences Center College of Medicine
http://medicine.tamhsc.edu/admissions/apply/index.html
Policy on AP Credits, Credits by Exam, and Dual Credit
We generally prefer that applicants take the prerequisite courses at 4-year accredited colleges and universities rather than utilize advanced placement credits, credits by exam, dual-credit, pass/fail course work or community college courses. We do not dismiss these credits; and, if they have been taken, we will accept them toward meeting the prerequisites. In fact, if an applicant has placed out of a required level course, we will also accept another course in that discipline at the same or higher level. Again, our preference is that applicants take graded courses at 4-year institutions, particularly the prerequisites in the biological sciences and the chemistry series.

Virginia Commonwealth University School of Medicine
http://www.medschool.vcu.edu/admissions/md/faq/#q43
Are community college classes accepted as prerequisite course credit?
They may be, but the Admissions Committee generally expects students to complete all prerequisite courses at a four-year undergraduate institution.

Yale
https://medicine.yale.edu/education/admissions/apply/premed.aspx
Pre-medical courses must be completed in a U.S., U.K., or Canadian college or university. U.S. Community College courses are acceptable, provided that the courses include laboratory work and are comparable in content to courses at four-year colleges, universities, or institutes of technology.

Weill Cornell
http://weill.cornell.edu/education/admissions/app_faq.html
Can I take my prerequisite courses at a Community College?
It is not recommended.
Click to expand...
"
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/researchers-look-at-why-fewer-229239
"Almost 75 percent of all Latino and 66 percent of all black students who go on to higher education in California go to a community college"

This stance does not help URM recruitment.
 
libertyyne said:
"
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/researchers-look-at-why-fewer-229239
"Almost 75 percent of all Latino and 66 percent of all black students who go on to higher education in California go to a community college"

This stance does not help URM recruitment.
Click to expand...

On the other hand, if you see a upper middle class kid at a top 20 school who goes to a CC or a low tier private school over the summer to do a course (o-chem or physics is most common) that would be a weed-out at their usual school, then I think it is fair to downgrade them a bit compared with a classmate from the same school who took all of their pre-reqs at their home institution.

e.g. Ivy undergrads: Both with 3.90 GPA. One Took o-chem during the summer at No-name College "back home" vs. took all pre-reqs at that Ivy.
Not only did one take a tough course at a less demanding school, but that student may have also had a lighter course load the previous, or following academic year which also helped the GPA compared with taking a heavier course load. Not that students are being measured head to head but which is the stronger academically?
 
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LizzyM said:
On the other hand, if you see a upper middle class kid at a top 20 school who goes to a CC or a low tier private school over the summer to do a course (o-chem or physics is most common) that would be a week-out at their usual school, then I think it is fair to downgrade them a bit compared with a classmate from the same school who took all of their pre-reqs at their home institution.

e.g. Ivy undergrads: Both with 3.90 GPA. One Took o-chem during the summer at No-name College "back home" vs. took all pre-reqs at that Ivy.
Not only did one take a tough course at a less demanding school, but that student may have also had a lighter course load the previous, or following academic year which also helped the GPA compared with taking a heavier course load. Not that students are being measured head to head but which is the stronger academically?
Click to expand...
I would look to the mcat.isnt it supposed to be the great equalizer. I understand why you would want to discourage gaming by taking it at a place other than your home institution.But what about the person that went to cc to obtain an as so they could transfer to a 4 year. The variation in rigor could vary from semester to semester and teacher to teacher let alone institution to institution. The mcat solves that problem. Plus the same standard isn't applied to schools with grade inflation. Harvard grads don't have to retake their pre reqs at MIT for consideration
 
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libertyyne said:
I would look to the mcat.isnt it supposed to be the great equalizer. I understand why you would want to discourage gaming by taking it at a place other than your home institution.But what about the person that went to cc to obtain an as so they could transfer to a 4 year. The variation in rigor could vary from semester to semester and teacher to teacher let alone institution to institution. The mcat solves that problem. Plus the same standard isn't applied to schools with grade inflation. Harvard grads don't have to retake their pre reqs at MIT for consideration
Click to expand...

MCAT tells us how well you can prepare for a high stakes test. A GPA tells us about average performance over many years (or a single academic year).

The example I gave is not about people who attended CC before transferring to a top school. it is about someone who "takes the easy way out" by taking a pre-req at a less demanding school. That may be someone who looks for shortcuts or "an easy way out" of an academically challenging course or a heavy workload. That person is considered academically weaker, even with the same GPA, than someone who always rose to the challenge.
 
I am unsure of the quality of this data, But:
figure1.png
 
LizzyM said:
MCAT tells us how well you can prepare for a high stakes test. A GPA tells us about average performance over many years (or a single academic year).

The example I gave is not about people who attended CC before transferring to a top school. it is about someone who "takes the easy way out" by taking a pre-req at a less demanding school. That may be someone who looks for shortcuts or "an easy way out" of an academically challenging course or a heavy workload. That person is considered academically weaker, even with the same GPA, than someone who always rose to the challenge.
Click to expand...
Thank you, I agree. I guess then by just looking at those policies it seems that they would penalize people coming from CC to a 4 year. It seems that the system discriminates against such people. I guess I was lucky enough to gain an acceptance with CC AS. But on face it seems to exclude people like me from either applying or being accepted. I did not send an app to a school in particular that says it does not allow CC credit at all.
 
OP, don't worry about taking one or two pre-req courses over the summer at another four-year school. Presumably, your friend is doing this because he/she has to and not to avoid difficult grading at your home institution, etc. There will be a problem if he/she decides to do all the pre-reqs over the summer at another school (unless he/she is a non-traditional student) but a couple of courses doesn't hurt. As long as there is a good reason for this (e.g. to avoid staying for a whole extra semester at the home institution, finances, etc.), it won't negatively impact your chances for admission.
 
libertyyne said:
Yes. It is published in the economist. It makes me even madder considering some ADCOMS give weight to the "quality" of undergrad institution.
Click to expand...

Remember that median GPA tells you nothing about how hard it is to get an A in any particular class, subject, or major. You have no standard deviation, so you have no knowledge of how many people are getting As. A 3.3 (the median at private schools according to that chart) is not going to get you into an MD school. If you have a high median but a low standard deviation, then the number of students getting As is still going to be low. A B median does you no help if you're not getting As.
 
I took Ochem 1 and 2 plus labs over the summer. Made A's and my cycle is going pretty damn well 🙂
 
WedgeDawg said:
Remember that median GPA tells you nothing about how hard it is to get an A in any particular class, subject, or major. You have no standard deviation, so you have no knowledge of how many people are getting As. A 3.3 (the median at private schools according to that chart) is not going to get you into an MD school. If you have a high median but a low standard deviation, then the number of students getting As is still going to be low. A B median does you no help if you're not getting As.
Click to expand...
The median at harvard is 3.67, The most common grade at harvard also happens to be an A. Harvard unfortunately does not publish the data in detail, My critique was of the system where there are even points assigned to undergrad institution being private vs public as referenced in the table below. Preference is given to private schools yet and GPAs are inflated at private schools. Hardly seems fair that feeder schools also have a grade inflation issue. But this is
9d9XM4b.jpg

"
Finally, since A and A- grades must comprise at least 50 percent of grades, and since A is the more common of the two, the smallest possible percentage of A’s must be a little more than 25 percent. (It is worth noting that A-minuses probably comprise the lower half of the distribution too, so the percentage of A’s is likely higher.) Eight years ago, 48.3 percent of grades were in the A range. Only a 1.7 percentage-point increase in the number of A-minuses would be needed to proclaim that the median grade is an A-. And given the leftward skew of grades, the current average GPA may not be too far from its 3.45 value in 2005. People are acting like things have changed drastically when the recent news is inconclusive.

This should offer solace to many students apparently distraught over the recent news. The student with the 3.8 GPA is, in fact, above average, and in the top third of her class if the GPAs are distributed with a 3.6 mean and a standard deviation of 0.5. The student who earns an A on the assignment does not need to lament that it is meaningless. And, more importantly, the students who are frustrated, wondering why everyone else seems to be getting A’s, need not be worried as that is just not the case. I appreciate the conversations and debate that the recent news about grade inflation has generated, but I want these discussions to be aligned with what statistics, not emotional alarm, reveal.
Finally, since A and A- grades must comprise at least 50 percent of grades, and since A is the more common of the two, the smallest possible percentage of A’s must be a little more than 25 percent. (It is worth noting that A-minuses probably comprise the lower half of the distribution too, so the percentage of A’s is likely higher.) Eight years ago, 48.3 percent of grades were in the A range. Only a 1.7 percentage-point increase in the number of A-minuses would be needed to proclaim that the median grade is an A-. And given the leftward skew of grades, the current average GPA may not be too far from its 3.45 value in 2005. People are acting like things have changed drastically when the recent news is inconclusive.

This should offer solace to many students apparently distraught over the recent news. The student with the 3.8 GPA is, in fact, above average, and in the top third of her class if the GPAs are distributed with a 3.6 mean and a standard deviation of 0.5. The student who earns an A on the assignment does not need to lament that it is meaningless. And, more importantly, the students who are frustrated, wondering why everyone else seems to be getting A’s, need not be worried as that is just not the case. I appreciate the conversations and debate that the recent news about grade inflation has generated, but I want these discussions to be aligned with what statistics, not emotional alarm, reveal."


So schools prefer Candidates from these schools and with a median GPA of 3.67 falls within the 10th and 90th percentiles of a large portion of medical schools, yet taking a class at a community college requires a repeat.
 
@libertyyne

1. The median grade is an A- but that doesn't mean the median GPA is a 3.67. I can't find an overall number, but let's take biology as most premeds are biology majors. (http://lifesciences.fas.harvard.edu...u/files/lifesci/files/mcbhonorsguidelines.pdf). They do latin honors by overall gpa cutoffs for each concentration within bio. 50th percentile seems to be between a 3.5 and a 3.6. 80th percentile seems to be between a 3.75 and 3.8. 95th percentile seems to be around a 3.9.

2. The competition at Harvard is a lot stronger than the competition at your average state school. The classes are harder. The students are (overall) more motivated, more ambitious, and overall better students. They are literally some of the best students in the world with a proven track record of success. At other schools, you have a much lower proportion of the class that are this serious about academics. At Harvard, nearly everyone is going to be working as hard as the top 10% at your local state school.

3. While it's true that Harvard and friends are inflated in terms of median GPA, that inflation exists mostly in the humanities. The sciences will not be inflated, and making As is still tough, especially in premed classes. I took a class in comparative literature that was a joke in terms of how we were graded (interesting and intellectually stimulating, but it was virtually impossible to not get an A). Compare that to my general chemistry class that was absolutely destructive and where if you were getting above a B, you were doing spectacularly.

4. I went to an Ivy, graduated near the top of my class in biology, and can basically tell you from personal experience that its a lot harder to get a high GPA at a top school. I had a friend from high school go to a state school, do very little work, and ended up with a 3.7 in biology and is now in med school. He showed me some of his tests and I can tell you that they were not in any way comparable to mine in terms of difficulties. n=1, but I think it counts for something.

5. It's very possible to go to an Ivy and not do well enough to get into medical school. I know plenty of people in my class who had to defer applying or choose a totally different career because they got weeded out. These are all highly intelligent and motivated people who worked extremely hard.

I have a lot of posts in my history talking about my feelings on this subject. If you want I can dig them up (just ask and I'll be very happy to do so), but I'm not going to have a whole other discussion about it here. It's my own opinion and you don't have to agree with it, but I think the characterization that it's "unfair" due to perceived inflation devalues the effort it takes to do well at a top school.
 
What is the measure of mastery of the material covered in the course? Let's say the American Chemical Society exam is used to determine how well one has mastered the material compared with thousands of students who have taken the same exam. Is it then possible for many students in a class of highly talented students to perform at more than 2 standard deviations above the national mean? Does not every one of those students deserve an A?
 
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You have to remember that UG schools serve as feeders to med schools. So if Harvard, for example, draws upon the Ivies, plus, say, Stanford, the UCs, Rice, and U Chicago as feeders, those students are a known quantity. It's not merely do to "reputation" but to how well those UG grads have done in med school. Our state Uni is a quite good, and their grads show in in our classes. Ditto our students from the UCs. So to reiterate, we're not bowled over by the mere mention of the UC-Berkeley name, but by the quality of its students.



libertyyne said:
Yes. It is published in the economist. It makes me even madder considering some ADCOMS give weight to the "quality" of undergrad institution.
Click to expand...
 
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