Question for former PhD students

[iwantout]

I'm currently a graduate student in my second year of a PhD program, but I know for a fact that I don't want to do research for a career. I want out of this program ASAP so that I can take some time to work and consider my future career goals, which may include an MD but please consider that I may choose business as well as you're offering your insights and experiences.

I don't just want to quit the program without a degree-- I'd like to exit with a Masters in the next six to nine months. I haven't broached the subject with my advisor, committee members, or program director (or anybody related to the program) yet because I want to carefully consider how to approach this.

For those of you who have exited a PhD program with a masters, how did you approach it? Were you met with much opposition? Did you have much support?

Anybody who has left a PhD program after 2+ years with no degree? What happened? Did you try to get a masters?

The PhD program I am in generally does not offer masters degrees. I'm not even sure if anybody has ever received one. There is a great lack of information as to how to exit a PhD program with a masters whether speaking to people in my program, reading books, or even on the Internet. I'm pretty much a sponge for advice and experiences at this point. Please don't try to dissuade me, I'm very calculated about what I'm doing. I'm still working in my advisor's lab, progressing toward PhD right now, but truly to stay in school an extra 2-3 years would be a waste of time when I could be getting an MBA or business experience of some type.

Thanks!! I appreciate your help. I know this isn't exactly what this forum is for, but there isn't an active forum for PhD students here.

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[Scottish Chap]

Good luck.

 

[med_heidelberg]

I left my PhD program (private university, top program) after 2 years with a Masters, but it was explicitly stated in the guidelines that students that leave are eligible for a Masters, which means that the committee decides if they get it or not.

I think its very tricky to get out gracefully. When i told our dept chair i was going to med school he was shocked and disppointed that I was leaving the program.

If there are no set guidelines for getting a terminal Masters, then you should try to publish a paper or two before bailing, to show you have contributed something at least.

good luck!

 

[StartingOverZ]

I left my pure math Ph.D program after two years; there was no terminal masters program but completion of two years coursework plus passing prelims was considered sufficient for a masters. My advisor, the graduate chair and the department chair were all supportive. I told them that I lacked the passion to be a research mathematician and the general consensus was that it's better to get out early if you know it's not the right path for you. I wanted a career more in line with my personality, not just based on my intellectual interests. Like the earlier poster, it was also a top private university and I left with an MS. The main hassle was driving my stuff back across the country.
It sounds like you've thought about this for a while and you're pretty determined to get out. If you've thought about it that seriously then you're probably making the right decision. If you were at all concerned about what people would say, then don't be. Ultimately, you live with the day to day of your life and there's no sense being miserable/wasting time when you know you're in a bad fit. It might seem like a big deal (and it is to you because it's your reality), it turns out that most people will barely notice. Maybe your aunt will mention to one of your cousins that you decided to ditch the graduate program and get an MBA/MD. No one cares and life goes on. Everyone else is usually wrapped up in the drama of his life.

Good luck!

 

[NashvilleWill14]

Engineering grad school sounds more regimented than your program (everybody receives a MS before the PhD) but I was in a similar situation and deeply involved in a large research lab -- on several grants and working as lab manager and webmaster. I had joined the lab with the intention of sticking around for a doctorate until I figured out it wasn't what I wanted to do.

I made the decision to leave and pursue a medical career but was really nervous about breaking the news to my advisor/boss. I was sure that he would be upset that I was leaving and felt guilty about leaving the lab hanging but I knew it was something I had to do.

I scheduled a lunch with him and he was understanding, even encouraging. In retrospect I don't think any advisor would punish a student for following their dreams. Perhaps yours could at least give you some advice.

You just have to find your dream and let the cards fall as they may.

 

[RxnMan]

You know that there are jobs for PhDs outside of research, right? Unless you really hate your advisor and you are in an intolerable situation (e.g. abusive advisor) I'd consider staying in.

First off, every grad student hates their research at one point or another. I haven't met a PhD who likes to read their thesis.

Second, it doesn't sound like you have a plan of where you want to go from here. If you want to land on your feet, you need to have someplace to land. Other posters have mentioned that they were able to leave when they got into med school. Similarly, you can use your time as a grad student to explore other options without giving up the stipend and the progress you've made already in your career. If you want an exit plan, then start there.

 

[lincolnparadox]

iwantout--

If you're dead-set on this course of action, then you want to be very careful not to burn any bridges. For all med schools not only will you have to report your post-bacc work, but many schools will also most likely want at least one letter of rec from your grad school adviser. It sounds like staringoverz took the best route. Be honest with your adviser as soon as possible. Find out what your options are. S/he may have some ideas that your haven't considered yet. At least be open to other routes.

Beyond that, if you can graduate with a Masters then that can be a feather in your cap when you apply for something else. If you can't, well, even if you get an MBA first, you'll have to explain "why you quit graduate school, and how can we be sure you won't quit med school too?"

Honestly, I was in the same position as you. Two years into my PhD program, I realized med school was what I wanted. But, I stuck with it. The Masters exit plan wasn't an option for me, though.

Good luck!

 

[iwantout]

I really appreciate the advice from all of you!

I actually have thought a lot about this. I am aware of employment options for PhD's outside of academia, but the positions I am interested in do not require a PhD and are not research-oriented. I didn't really go into it because this is a med school forum so I didn't want to talk about my non-med school plans, but I want to get a pharm sales job after I get out with an MS, get a year or two of experience, get an MBA, and move up from there. I also own a business with my husband and have done part-time sales through that vehicle for the last two years, so I already have some recent sales experience.

Mostly I wanted to hear how your advisor, dept. chair, etc. reacted, and whether you had to do any strategic maneuvering to get an MS for your time. I have made the decision and don't feel like a failure anymore-- research just isn't my bag.

Thanks again! If anybody else has advice or experiences to share, I'd still love to hear them.

 

[med_heidelberg]

My advisor was actually really understanding about it and said it is good that I realized it then and not later down the line. He also told me to follow my dreams and said a person has to do what gives them passion. This coming from the most hard core guy in the department, as perceived by many. Actually the chair told me that I might even have problems breaking the news to him and he might not be very understanding. Well I had even more respect for my advisor when I left, I left on a positive note with him. I think people in the lab and in the dept were shocked and some seemed kind of cold to me, but whatever, I had already gotten my acceptance when I told them and was positive I was going. When I broke the news to my advisor, I said, Im moving back to Europe ... then he asked what for, then I told him, so I kind of toned down the whole med school thing.

If you have a solid plan, which it sounds like you are working on, then mention what you plan to do and how you plan to get there. I think this will make them respect you and they have to realize, academic science is not for everyone.

 

[QofQuimica]

I suggest that you start by figuring out what you want to do, and then go talk to your advisor. As much as you might be hating grad school right now, being a grad student totally beats dropping out of grad school to be unemployed (and possibly unemployable) with no plan for where to go from here. Do they have a career counselor at your school? Make an appointment, and start figuring out what else you'd rather be doing. Then you can figure out what you need to do to get there. Best of to you.

 

[MasonPrehealth]

I'm on another bulletin board which you might be interested in. Click on the Science Careers Forum, and read our primer on jobs for BS/MS scientists and how to make that transition. Otherwise, feel free to post.

I would say that you still sound like you are looking for all the options whether it is business school, medical school, or "real life." Take this time to really make a self-evaluation of what type of career and lifestyle you want for yourself.

 

[iwantout]

I'm glad to see more people responded. I really appreciate it.

Don't worry, I'm not dropping out of grad school. I'll probably talk to my advisor about it in a few weeks at the beginning of winter semester. You're right, I'm not completely ready to leave grad school anyway b/c I haven't applied to any jobs yet and my resume hasn't been updated in a while. I would like to talk to a career counselor-- I'll make a point to do that once winter semester rolls around as well.

And Mason, I'll be checking out sciencecareers.org. Thanks!

 

[Dfg]

I took a master's and left my phd program for a similar reason, and I wish I hadn't. A phd is not just for research, it's also very valuable if you want to do cutting-edge work in industry--including stuff like getting funding for your startup.
Professors are not a good source of career advice in my experience.

 

[QofQuimica]

I took a master's and left my phd program for a similar reason, and I wish I hadn't. A phd is not just for research, it's also very valuable if you want to do cutting-edge work in industry--including stuff like getting funding for your startup.
Professors are not a good source of career advice in my experience.

You could probably go back and finish your PhD if you really want the degree now. It took me three tries before I finally earned mine. I dropped out with my MS for personal reasons the first time. I almost dropped out a second time because I realized pretty quickly that there was no way this prof was ever going to award me a PhD. However, I really wanted to get my PhD, so I wound up transferring to a different lab that turned out to be a fantastic fit. I got credit for my previous coursework and did not have to take any classes, but I did have to start my research over from scratch. Even so, I finished my research and dissertation in 2.5 years. Don't get me wrong; I had basically no life outside of school during that 2.5 years. I even set up a cot in the lab so I could take naps during downtime, and I kept food in the breakroom and ate most of my meals there. I pretty much was living at the lab. Plus, I took the MCAT and applied to med school during this time, so it was a pretty hectic and crazy two and a half years. But it got the job done. So, if you're really serious about wanting your PhD, why don't you look into going back?

 

[ntmed]

I decided to go to medical school while completing my PhD. Here's a suggestion. Don't drop out of your PhD program. Instead, slow things down, and spend most of your time taking your premed prereq's and the MCAT. During the application year, you can continue in your PhD full time.

If you get accepted to medical school, you can either drop out of your PhD program or try to get a masters. But at that point, you may not care, since you'll be going to medical school. Another option is to complete the PhD while a medical student.

 

[Dfg]

You could probably go back and finish your PhD if you really want the degree now. It took me three tries before I finally earned mine. I dropped out with my MS for personal reasons the first time. I almost dropped out a second time because I realized pretty quickly that there was no way this prof was ever going to award me a PhD. However, I really wanted to get my PhD, so I wound up transferring to a different lab that turned out to be a fantastic fit. I got credit for my previous coursework and did not have to take any classes, but I did have to start my research over from scratch. Even so, I finished my research and dissertation in 2.5 years. Don't get me wrong; I had basically no life outside of school during that 2.5 years. I even set up a cot in the lab so I could take naps during downtime, and I kept food in the breakroom and ate most of my meals there. I pretty much was living at the lab. Plus, I took the MCAT and applied to med school during this time, so it was a pretty hectic and crazy two and a half years. But it got the job done. So, if you're really serious about wanting your PhD, why don't you look into going back?

I did

I've been working on it for the last year and a half.

 

[QofQuimica]

I did

I've been working on it for the last year and a half.

Bravo to you. And best of luck.

 

[Beau Geste]

I had my M.S. and some work experience going into the Ph.D. program, but after just shy of 2 years in, unforseen negative program changes and happenings gave me time to evaluate my career goals. I already had the thought of applying to med school after my Ph.D. and the program situations let me realize I needed to just push for med school and if that didn't work out complete my Ph.D.

So far I've visited and e-mailed a few admissions people at schools in IL and they were understanding of my reasoning.

Get the M.S. and keep evaluating where your heart lies. What good is your Ph.D. if you want to be an M.D. and not do research (If you did want to do research, then that's another story). It looks nice, and you would have intimate knowledge of a particular area, but it's not practical. Might make for good party conversation, though .

 

[guptaso2]

I've just finished applying to a bunch of Elect. Eng. Phd programs. I really want to get an MS, but I know there's no way i'll get funded if I apply for one, that's why I decided to apply directly for the PhD.

Here's my question, I figure I'll be applying to Medical schools after my first year, how hard is it to go around asking for Letters of Rec. when you apply, do you have to worry about your advisor finding out? Since most likely my advisor will be supporting me with an RAship this is definately a concern of mine.

 

[QofQuimica]

I've just finished applying to a bunch of Elect. Eng. Phd programs. I really want to get an MS, but I know there's no way i'll get funded if I apply for one, that's why I decided to apply directly for the PhD.

Here's my question, I figure I'll be applying to Medical schools after my first year, how hard is it to go around asking for Letters of Rec. when you apply, do you have to worry about your advisor finding out? Since most likely my advisor will be supporting me with an RAship this is definately a concern of mine.

It will probably be impossible. I would advise you against trying to apply to med school behind your advisor's back, because you are almost certainly going to need him to write you a LOR. (If you don't get one from him, the med schools will want to know why.) Plus, it's not ethical for you to lie to him and use him to get an RA when you know from the getgo that you have no intention of ever completing your degree. Maybe you can look into being a TA or getting outside funding for a year or two of research (apply for research grants), but seriously, don't do what you're contemplating doing.

 

[guptaso2]

It will probably be impossible. I would advise you against trying to apply to med school behind your advisor's back, because you are almost certainly going to need him to write you a LOR. (If you don't get one from him, the med schools will want to know why.) Plus, it's not ethical for you to lie to him and use him to get an RA when you know from the getgo that you have no intention of ever completing your degree. Maybe you can look into being a TA or getting outside funding for a year or two of research (apply for research grants), but seriously, don't do what you're contemplating doing.

Let's say I get accepted into a school with an RA, how hard is it to switch to TAship? Can I apply for a TA position for the next semester or do you usually have to wait until the next year? That way I can be upfront with my advisor about my intentions for med school without losing funding.

 

[guptaso2]

One more question. Alot of the schools I've applied to for grad schools have very generous financial aid policies concerning they're undergrads. ( I know a few guarantee no out-of-pocket spending for families who make 50K or less). Do you guys know if these policies also apply to their graduate students who don't have assistantships?

 

[QofQuimica]

Let's say I get accepted into a school with an RA, how hard is it to switch to TAship? Can I apply for a TA position for the next semester or do you usually have to wait until the next year? That way I can be upfront with my advisor about my intentions for med school without losing funding.

I don't know the answer to that. You should probably contact the department and find out what kind of TAs are available. When I was in grad school, all of the new students were offered TAs, and we all worked as hard as we could to get on RAs so that we could get out faster. But I was in chemistry, not engineering, so I don't know how it's done for you guys. We had a ton of TA positions b/c there are so many premeds taking gen chem and organic; sometimes they even offered us a third section for extra money.

If you can't get a TA, then I think you'll have to level with your PI. I don't understand how you already have a PI anyway if you haven't even started yet. Don't you guys do lab rotations your first year? We weren't required to pick a lab until the beginning of our second year, and again, it wasn't a problem b/c we were supported by the dept. as TAs. Maybe engineering is different.

 

[guptaso2]

In EE TAships are rarely given to entering students. Most students are supported by RAships since they're aren't that many TA positions to go around.

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

Another option is to complete the PhD while a medical student.

Are medical schools okay with this option? What if, say, the dissertation were written before med school begins and it's a matter of defending it in the fall?

 

[QofQuimica]

Are medical schools okay with this option? What if, say, the dissertation were written before med school begins and it's a matter of defending it in the fall?

I'd get that permission in writing if I were you. My school unequivocally told me that if I didn't graduate with my PhD on time, I wouldn't be matriculating last summer.

 

[eggtart]

hi everyone

i'm new to this forum and the reason i joined is because i wanted to reply to this thread

i'm now waiting to defend my PhD theses and should everything be ok, i'll be graduating with a PhD somewhere in march. my theses is about electrochemistry+neurochemistry.

however, my lifelong dream is to become a medical dr.

therefore, i'll applying to medical school after my phd and from what i see, you could be an asset to them. reason is, you have research experience and if possible, papers publications

 

[QofQuimica]

hi everyone

i'm new to this forum and the reason i joined is because i wanted to reply to this thread

i'm now waiting to defend my PhD theses and should everything be ok, i'll be graduating with a PhD somewhere in march. my theses is about electrochemistry+neurochemistry.

however, my lifelong dream is to become a medical dr.

therefore, i'll applying to medical school after my phd and from what i see, you could be an asset to them. reason is, you have research experience and if possible, papers publications

Congrats on almost finishing. But don't get overconfident; I can tell you that having a PhD is not as much of an asset as you may think it is. Have you been doing any shadowing and/or clinical volunteering? If not, you need to start. And if your grades and MCAT scores aren't competitive for medical school, that PhD isn't going to be much help to you at all.

 

[eggtart]

thank you very much on your reminder

in fact, now i'm playing cautious over the viva and i don't wanna failed at that... i think it should be somewhere around end of febuary, after the chinese lunar new year

ahh...i planned to apply to national university in singapore and therefore, i think MCAT is not needed, if i'm not mistaken (anyone can clear this out?)

yes, i have done my volunteering in a general hospital somewhere near my hometown and also in a private medical centre near my university.

any other tips fo rme? if so, pls advice

hopefully, i'll be called for interview