Question re being a DO & taking MD boards.

[CaveatLector]

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I hear talk about going to DO school and taking MD boards. Please forgive my ignorance as I am a neophyte but why would someone do that? That doesn't make you an MD does it? Does it just give you better chances as far as residencies? Thanks for your responses.

 

[Raven Feather]

I hear talk about going to DO school and taking MD boards. Please forgive my ignorance as I am a neophyte but why would someone do that? That doesn't make you an MD does it? Does it just give you better chances as far as residencies? Thanks for your responses.

No, completing an allopathic residency does not make you an MD b/c those initials indicate the degree you obtained--completing a certain type of residency can't change that. People apply to both for many different reasons, to cutt through the extra year that DO residencies have, because they like a certain program/institution, to go to a certain area of the US they like, etc.

 

[RDickerson]

I hear talk about going to DO school and taking MD boards. Please forgive my ignorance as I am a neophyte but why would someone do that? That doesn't make you an MD does it? Does it just give you better chances as far as residencies? Thanks for your responses.

There are more opportunities to do the MD boards. DO has their own, and they are just as capable, but like I said, it's about opportunity. Whatever is open. It does not make you a M.D. Medical school is the sole provider of those two letters, whether you attend an Allopathic school, or an Osteopathic school. Once again, both are just as qualified as the other.

 

[OSUdoc08]

I hear talk about going to DO school and taking MD boards. Please forgive my ignorance as I am a neophyte but why would someone do that? That doesn't make you an MD does it? Does it just give you better chances as far as residencies? Thanks for your responses.

Some allopathic residencies require the MD boards. You will simply be a more competitive applicant for allopathic residencies. You will still be required to take the DO boards.

 

[CaveatLector]

No, completing an allopathic residency does not make you an MD b/c those initials indicate the degree you obtained--completing a certain type of residency can't change that. People apply to both for many different reasons, to cutt through the extra year that DO residencies have, because they like a certain program/institution, to go to a certain area of the US they like, etc.

DO's have to do an EXTRA year of residency?? 😱

 

[OSUdoc08]

DO's have to do an EXTRA year of residency?? 😱

No.

If you enter an MD residency, you do the same amount of years as an MD.

If you enter a DO residency, some residencies require an extra year of internship prior to entering the residency.

 

[Raven Feather]

No.

If you enter an MD residency, you do the same amount of years as an MD.

If you enter a DO residency, some residencies require an extra year of internship prior to entering the residency.

Do the majority of the DO residencies require the exta year?

 

[OSUdoc08]

Do the majority of the DO residencies require the exta year?

Yes, but it depends on the specialty.

 

[kahoo99]

this is only for those 5 states though correct?
I mean additional internship year apart from the specialties that MDs also require an internship year for e.g. anesthesia?

 

[OSUdoc08]

this is only for those 5 states though correct?
I mean additional internship year apart from the specialties that MDs also require an internship year for e.g. anesthesia?

No, this is incorrect.

All AOA residencies throughout the nation require the extra year of internship, with the exception of the few residencies that have the internship year built in.

The "5 states" require you to either complete an AOA residency OR complete an internship year prior to entering an ACGME residency OR get the first year of ACGME residency approved as an equivalent internship year.

 

[kahoo99]

so by doing an AOA residency you add a year of poorly compensated work? damn that sucks.

 

[OSUdoc08]

so by doing an AOA residency you add a year of poorly compensated work? damn that sucks.

To use an example, there are some ACGME residencies in emergency medicine that are 3 years and some that are 4 years.

If "that sucks," explain to my why there are some MD residents in these 4 year programs?

It was obviously optional for them.

 

[kahoo99]

I don't know why they would choose a 4 year over a 3 year. Do you?

 

[Taus]

While the info here is definitely correct for ER and a few other fields (ive heard neuro and urology)....there are many that are identical...these are just the ones that I know off the top of my head....PM&R/Peds/FP/IM are all a total of 3 (4 for PM&R) years (including internship year) w/ either MD or DO residencies...the only factor that can clutter that somewhat are the people who decide to do an MD residency in "the 5 states" and do not/or cannot get their 1st year in an MD program approved by the AOA to count as their internship year.....from what I have heard it is EXTREMELY rare for a person doing primary care to do more then 3 years, especially when there are so many ways around it....my personal opinion is that you'd have to be crazy to do an extra year when you can relatively easily (in most fields- excluding ER and a few others) get around doing so...

an example....If I wanted to do PM&R, which consists of a 3 year residency and separate one year internship, I would do a DO internship and an MD residency and it equals the same 4 years that an MD would do (MD internship and MD resdidency).....the only confounding factor here is that there "a few" PM&R programs that have a linked intership/residency....with which my first year would likely not be AOA approved unless I petitioned it successfully...

Sorry for the cluttered typing format...this is on my quick break from studying...

 

[raspberry swirl]

taus sort of answered the question, but let me clarify it a little bit more for you...

DOs do NOT necessarily have to do an extra year in comparison to MDs. Certain specialties (as mentioned above) require a traditional rotating year. I would say most do, actually. ie. you want to do an ENT residency, you have to do a tradidional rotating surgical internship year. In the recent years, many residencies have been building this intern year into the actual residency curriculum. this goes for both MDs and DOs.

5 states require that DOs do an AOA approved internship. PA, OH, MI, FL, and one other, i can't remember which. this counts as that traditional rotating internship year i mentioned in the previous paragraph, it just counts as AOA approved intern year because it has a certain amount of primary care requirements built into it that you have to meet. however, only a limited number of places have them (mostly in the states that require them, with others scattered about.)

regardless of whether or not you choose to do an AOA year, 90% of the time you're going to do some kind of intern year anyway. you would be wise to choose an AOA one if you plan on practicing in the aforementioned states. also, i think you have to have completed one if you ever plan on being a program director of an osteopathic residency (not that you would probably know that now ...)

i do believe the only time you might end up doing some extra work is if you did a traditional rotating intern year, and then chose a residency that had the intern requirements built into it ... but that could happen to anyone who didnt do their research, MD or DO ...

some please correct me if im wrong or clarify what i've written, the whole intern year thing is a little bit confusing

to the OP, i took both the DO and MD boards. for me, it was more for curiosities sake, and because i didnt want to regret not taking them, on the off chance it could help me be a more competitive residency applicant. you certainly dont need them. and by law, im pretty sure no allopathic program can require them (legally, that is, but thats probably not realistic)

 

[rack]

hmm.. totally theoretical question

if you were applying to a semi-competitive allo residency with great usmle step 1 scores, but average comlex scores, would they pretty much dismiss the comlex score? or would it kinda.. detract.. from your file? just wondering

 

[Dr Alo]

Yes, but it depends on the specialty.

This is not true except for a few residency programs. Almost all residency programs are equivalent in length to their MD counterparts. And you could just avoid those programs if you want.

ER residencies are either 3 years or 4 years. Most MD ER residencies are going to 4 years. Same for Do ER residencies, they are going in the same direction. It all depends on which program you are referring to.

 

[OSUdoc08]

This is not true except for a few residency programs. Almost all residency programs are equivalent in length to their MD counterparts. And you could just avoid those programs if you want.

ER residencies are either 3 years or 4 years. Most MD ER residencies are going to 4 years. Same for Do ER residencies, they are going in the same direction. It all depends on which program you are referring to.

YOU'RE KIDDING, RIGHT?

There are 102 3-year ACGME EM residencies.
There are 19 4-year ACGME EM residencies.

http://saem.org/rescat/contents.htm

 

[ShyRem]

OSU, you have to be careful here. I know the EM residency in Denver is listed as 3 years, but they require 1 prelim year - thus making the residency a total of 4 years.

 

[OSUdoc08]

OSU, you have to be careful here. I know the EM residency in Denver is listed as 3 years, but they require 1 prelim year - thus making the residency a total of 4 years.

# 1-4 programs: There are 19 of these four year programs.
# 2-4 programs: There are 15 of these three year programs (3 years after a separate 1 year internship).
# 1-3 programs: There are 102 of these three year programs (3 years including the internship year).

Denver would be included in one of those 15 programs, as listed above.

There are still 102 programs that are 3 years total.

 

[ShyRem]

Ok. You just weren't quite clear. 🙂

 

[Captain Fantastic]

In my experience, which albeit is limited, I've not heard the COMLEX or USMLE referred to as Boards. I thought the term "Boards" was generally reserved for the exams regulated by the individual specialty boards inorder to be "board certified." You know, like the American Board of Internal Medicine offers the "Boards". Is it common practice to call the licensing exams "boards," too? Just curious.

 

[Taus]

yeah they are commonly referred to as "boards", or "steps" as in step1, step 2

 

[Captain Fantastic]

yeah they are commonly referred to as "boards", or "steps" as in step1, step 2

Yeah, when my wife went through medical school and residency the licensing exams were always called the step exams and the board-cert exams were called the boards. I guess it was just the culture of the school she attended to not call the step exams the boards, too.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Yeah, when my wife went through medical school and residency the licensing exams were always called the step exams and the board-cert exams were called the boards. I guess it was just the culture of the school she attended to not call the step exams the boards, too.

Step I of Boards
Step I of Boards
Step III of Boards

(this is how most schools refer to them)

 

[Dr Alo]

It's becaue these "steps" are administered by the National Board of Medical Examiners or National Board of Osteopathic Medical Examiners. So they are Board exams and they have three steps.

 

[johnny5]

4 steps if you do a fellowship 😉

 

[OSUdoc08]

4 steps if you do a fellowship 😉

No. That is a specialty board. If you count the specialty board associated with the residency that you complete prior to entering a fellowship, then the total exam number would be 5, although the 4th and 5th exams are not called "steps."

 

[johnny5]

No. That is a specialty board. If you count the specialty board associated with the residency that you complete prior to entering a fellowship, then the total exam number would be 5, although the 4th and 5th exams are not called "steps."

oh, alright!!

 

[Maxprime]

Pardon my ignorance - but I am new to this and wondering about the "5 states" rule.

Am I understanding this correctly? If you go to a DO medical school and want to practice as a physician in those states - you MUST do a DO residency? So if I went to a DO school and a allo residency, I would not ever be allowed to practice in those schools?

 

[OSUdoc08]

Pardon my ignorance - but I am new to this and wondering about the "5 states" rule.

Am I understanding this correctly? If you go to a DO medical school and want to practice as a physician in those states - you MUST do a DO residency? So if I went to a DO school and a allo residency, I would not ever be allowed to practice in those schools?

Incorrect.

To practice in one of those 5 states, you must do one of the following:

1. Complete an AOA internship & residency
2. Complete an AOA internship & an ACGME residency
3. Complete an ACGME residency in an area where no AOA internships are
available, and get the first year of ACGME residency approved by the AOA
as an internship year

 

[Maxprime]

Incorrect.

To practice in one of those 5 states, you must do one of the following:

1. Complete an AOA internship & residency
2. Complete an AOA internship & an ACGME residency
3. Complete an ACGME residency in an area where no AOA internships are
available, and get the first year of ACGME residency approved by the AOA
as an internship year

Thank you very much for clarifying, OSU. You SDN'ers are the best.

(Sorry, but Hook 'Em!!!) 🙂

 

[johnny5]

i'm sure i'll find out about all this later, but just curious...when you match can you enter the AOA match program AND the ACGME match? or do you have to choose before hand? and whats the "SF match" ?

Thanks!

 

[Claymore]

You can enter all the matches if you want, but ultimately you will need to decide which one to follow through on. The ACGME (allopathic) match occurs in March, while the AOA (osteopathic) match occurs in January. The trick is, if you match in a program via the AOA, which occurs first, you are automatically withdrawn from the ACGME one. Therefore you really need to decide on how competitive you think you are and which programs you really prefer. If you go this route you will either have to just go with the AOA match and withdraw from the ACGME, giving up a potential spot, or withdraw from AOA and take your chances in the ACGME.

The SF Match (also allopathic) is also called the early match because it occurs in January. It is only relevant for a few specialties: Neurology, Neurosurgery, Ophthalmology. Basically it's the same idea as the regular match but everything occurs about 2 months earlier. And the applicants in this match are far cooler than those in any of the other matches, so I hear.

 

[Claymore]

You can enter all the matches if you want, but ultimately you will need to decide which one to follow through on. The ACGME (allopathic) match occurs in March, while the AOA (osteopathic) match occurs in January. The trick is, if you match in a program via the AOA, which occurs first, you are automatically withdrawn from the ACGME one. Therefore you really need to decide on how competitive you think you are and which programs you really prefer. If you go this route you will either have to just go with the AOA match and withdraw from the ACGME, giving up a potential spot, or withdraw from AOA and take your chances in the ACGME.

The SF Match (also allopathic) is also called the early match because it occurs in January. It is only relevant for a few specialties: Neurology, Neurosurgery, Ophthalmology. Basically it's the same idea as the regular match but everything occurs about 2 months earlier. And the applicants in this match are far cooler than those in any of the other matches, so I hear.

typo-the osteo match actually occurs in February, not January. All the other info regarding timing still applies though.

 

[hmack]

Yes, but it depends on the specialty.

I thought that since the DO residencies were at a different time that you really could't apply to both and get accepted to both for options??

 

[DrMom]

No the extra year of an internship is only required in 5 states ....

Osteopathic residencies all have the Osteo internship, so if they can't work the Osteo internship requirements into their specialty curriculum then they add a year on to the program (compared to MD programs). This is regardless of which state the Osteo residency is in.

 

[Claymore]

I thought that since the DO residencies were at a different time that you really could't apply to both and get accepted to both for options??

You are not clear on the idea of the match. You can apply to both ACGME, AOA. You then interview at both. However, at no point are you "accepted" to any program. On match day, you are matched at 1 program, which is where you are obligated to go. If you entered both AOA and ACGME, and do not withdraw from the AOA match, you will match at one of the AOA programs since it occurs first. Once this happens, you are automatically withdrawn from the ACGME. In order to prevent this, you would have to withdraw from the AOA match (thus giving up your chances to match at an osteopathic program) and take your chances in the ACGME.

Remember, no one forces you to apply to both matches. Most people apply to one or the other.