Question RE: Masters Programs (general)

[NJDental]

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I posted this in another thread but wanted to start a new thread in case anyone else can give me advice.

I'm applying this June for Fall 2011 and since I have a low GPA (sGPA 2.7 cGPA 3.0) I want to apply for a Masters program for 2010-2011 (one year) to improve my chances. However all the schools around me offer 2-year programs.

Does anyone sign up for a 2yr Masters program, but still apply to dental school for the following year, and keeping fingers crossed, gets in and then drops out of program? I don't want to have to "drop out" of a Masters Program but then again I want to apply for Fall 2011 and would hope a years worth of grad classes would really help my chances....any advice? THANK YOU!!

PS. Taking DAT second week of June.

 

[Albuterol]

Hey,
From what I've heard most schools would like you to finish your degree since you have made a commitment towards that program. I know for a FACT that NJDS wants you to complete your degree before you matriculate and will rescind your acceptance if you don't complete it before matriculation. The UMDNJ Stratford and Newark programs can be completed in 1 year...are you applying to those? I am at the Newark program right now so if you end up going there or want more info let me know.

 

[userah]

See, regardless you will have to wait 2 years. Because most schools will want to see a full year of grades. Now if you apply in June and start school in September, they'll hold off on your application until December to see what your semester grades are like. Chances are, even if you do well, that still won't matter. I got a 4.0 my first semester and it meant jack to all the schools I applied. One semester of doing well doesn't cancel out 4 years of undergrad unfortunately haha. By the time you're done with your spring semester, it's already too late for the dental schools because by then all the seats will be full.

I can speak for UMDNJ in that they require a full year of grades before they consider you. So in that sense, if you do grad school, you'll already be 2 years behind because the applications and your grad school aren't really on the same time line. Hope that clears up some of your questions. Let me know if you have any other questions. Good luck

 

[dentalWorks]

Why not just take post-bacc courses for a year or so and bring up your overall and science gpa? Wouldn't that be cheaper and better than a 2-year crazy expensive master's program ?

 

[peanutb123]

Sorry if i am hijacking... just want to conform something.

So if you are in the middle of the Masters program in an unrelated field. And once you gain acceptance to D.School you can quit the program right after that semester?... b/c you already had all the prerequisites. + your undergrad degree why would they (D.school)take back your acceptance if you quit masters program for ex: in health science or etc...

 

[userah]

UMDNJ is pretty gay that way haha. What albuterol said is true. Their rules keep changing every year. The prior dean of admissions, Dr. Linfante stepped down at the end of the year and some other lady is now the new Dean. Maybe that had something to do with it. Either way, if you do the masters at UMDNJ and you get accepted to UMDNJ dental program, they expect you to finish your degree before starting dental school. Other schools however will allow you to defer 6 of your 30 graduate credits over to dental school and you can complete your masters degree while in dental school. UMDNJ however for some odd reason does not allow this and you have to finish the program

oh and to respond to dentalworks, most schools would rather prefer you doing a masters program rather than doing a post-bacc and just retaking classes you've already taken. To admissions, that doesn't prove anything to them. All it shows is that you can do better at a course the second time around. They'd rather you do masters and take upper level science courses and really show them that you can handle these heavy biology courses.

 

[peanutb123]

UMDNJ is pretty gay that way haha. What albuterol said is true. Their rules keep changing every year. The prior dean of admissions, Dr. Linfante stepped down at the end of the year and some other lady is now the new Dean. Maybe that had something to do with it. Either way, if you do the masters at UMDNJ and you get accepted to UMDNJ dental program, they expect you to finish your degree before starting dental school. Other schools however will allow you to defer 6 of your 30 graduate credits over to dental school and you can complete your masters degree while in dental school. UMDNJ however for some odd reason does not allow this and you have to finish the program

oh and to respond to dentalworks, most schools would rather prefer you doing a masters program rather than doing a post-bacc and just retaking classes you've already taken. To admissions, that doesn't prove anything to them. All it shows is that you can do better at a course the second time around. They'd rather you do masters and take upper level science courses and really show them that you can handle these heavy biology courses.

What if you are doing masters in another univ. ie. Rutgers. in different field. can you quit masters once you gain acceptance to any of the D.school's including NJDS

 

[userah]

I would think it depends on the school. As soon as you get acceptance to whatever school, first thing you should do is call the school and find out about whether or not you can quit your program. I would think regardless of the school, they'd wanna see you complete the semester at least (which I'm sure you'd do regardless) As for completing the entire program, that might just be based independently on the school you get into as UMDNJ has shown. Hope that helps. Good luck with the application process

 

[Albuterol]

damnn...userah all over these boards!

 

[userah]

damnn...userah all over these boards!

I'm just trying to catch up to your number of posts 😀

 

[system7]

i'm in the same situation as you, op. For now, all I could do is study my ass off for the DAT and hope for the best score. If I get a score that i'm confident in, I may just put all my eggs in one basket and not even bother with the masters program. But it's a safe option in case you don't get in and then at least you will have a masters degree to fall back on. I'm still thinking about it and not too sure what to do either.

 

[Quickdraw]

It's not just UMDNJ that would want you to finish your Master's degree commitment before matriculating at their school - other schools will place you in on indefinite hold until you complete the program as well. That's how it works at a number of dental schools - call and ask those schools you intend on applying to.

Just as a note to someone who mentioned earlier that a grad degree was preferable to a formal post-baccalaureate program. This isn't necessarily true. Schools know (as most of your interviewers who have PhD's know), that grad programs are infamous for grade inflation. The strength of a grad program, say at BU or UMDNJ, is the ability to take med and dental school coursework. If you step up to the plate and do well in these courses in addition to other booster grad courses, then you have a strong case to make for yourself. If you take a bunch of grad courses and forego med/dental courses, you are probably better off doing a post-baccalaureate program because it will be 1) cheaper and 2) more meaningful because of no grade inflation.

 

[userah]

I don't necessarily know about grade inflation; at least at UMDNJ anyways. The grad courses are close to being on par in terms of difficulty with the dental/med courses. And in terms of exams, all the grad school courses just consist of 2 exams; a midterm and a final; many of which are not curved. The dental courses offered have 3-4 exams depending on the course so in that sense, each exam is weighed less and if you do bad, theoretically, you can bounce back. Although one thing that can be said is grad school courses are not cumulative whereas dental courses are. But in that sense, most if not all post-bacc courses are also non-cum so that's not really saying anything.

Quickdraw is right on one thing though in that not every school prefers you do a masters over doing post-bacc. It pretty much varies based on the school and what they're specifically looking for. What I mentioned about UMDNJ preferring masters, I heard from the dean of admissions himself when I met with him. Other schools might operate differently and might be fine with you just doing post-bacc and taking same classes again and improving your undergrad gpa.

 

[Quickdraw]

I don't necessarily know about grade inflation; at least at UMDNJ anyways. The grad courses are close to being on par in terms of difficulty with the dental/med courses. And in terms of exams, all the grad school courses just consist of 2 exams; a midterm and a final; many of which are not curved. The dental courses offered have 3-4 exams depending on the course so in that sense, each exam is weighed less and if you do bad, theoretically, you can bounce back. Although one thing that can be said is grad school courses are not cumulative whereas dental courses are. But in that sense, most if not all post-bacc courses are also non-cum so that's not really saying anything.

Quickdraw is right on one thing though in that not every school prefers you do a masters over doing post-bacc. It pretty much varies based on the school and what they're specifically looking for. What I mentioned about UMDNJ preferring masters, I heard from the dean of admissions himself when I met with him. Other schools might operate differently and might be fine with you just doing post-bacc and taking same classes again and improving your undergrad gpa.

Med and dental school courses are most certainly not on par with graduate school courses -- talk to the admissions at NJMS and NJDS for confirmation. Don't just speak to Dr. Wagner and Dr. Garrett, because they are not on the admissions council. They offer really great council from years of experience, but they have the tendency to sugar coat things somewhat.

The grading schematic for grad school courses can fluctuate when students complain, resulting in say, necessitating a 85 instead of 90 for an A (case in point, Fundamentals II, Fundamentals in Pharm, Embryology, etc). The grading scheme for med and dental school courses are much more static, as it is more tightly regulated. The grade scheme aside, most of the grad school courses are nowhere near as difficult as the medical and dental school courses. The (generally agreed upon) most difficult course in the grad school (cell pathology) is a complete cakewalk compared to say, dental physiology or medical physiology. It's strange to have to even state this, because it's not even close.

 

[userah]

haha yea I suppose you have a point. There is a lot more material covered in a class like Dental Physiology as opposed to a grad course. When I was talking about being on par, I was specifically comparing Fundamentals I (which pretty much is Biochem) with Dental Biochemistry. I have taken Fund I last semester and am taking Dental Biochem this semester. Besides the fact that the course runs a lot longer and towards the end, you tend to focus on the dental aspect of things, the courses are very similar. Hell, half of the material that was covered on the first exam was taught by the same professor I had last semester for fundamentals.

Sure there are extremely difficult courses like Dental Physiology which are on a completely different scale than Graduate classes but part of what makes dental school so difficult, especially your first year is taking all these courses at once and having to juggle your time studying for all of them. I'm planning on taking only Dental Physiology next Fall to finish out my degree and I'm sure I'll find it quite difficult but I don't think it will be on the same difficulty (hopefully haha) as someone taking it with other dental courses. I'm not saying all the grad courses are on par with classes in Dental school but there are quite a few that I would say come close to being on par with some of the courses you will be taking in Dental school.

p.s. quickdraw, are you in the program? you seem to know a lot about the classes offered at umdnj

 

[cmcner]

Med and dental school courses are most certainly not on par with graduate school courses -- talk to the admissions at NJMS and NJDS for confirmation. Don't just speak to Dr. Wagner and Dr. Garrett, because they are not on the admissions council. They offer really great council from years of experience, but they have the tendency to sugar coat things somewhat.

The grading schematic for grad school courses can fluctuate when students complain, resulting in say, necessitating a 85 instead of 90 for an A (case in point, Fundamentals II, Fundamentals in Pharm, Embryology, etc). The grading scheme for med and dental school courses are much more static, as it is more tightly regulated. The grade scheme aside, most of the grad school courses are nowhere near as difficult as the medical and dental school courses. The (generally agreed upon) most difficult course in the grad school (cell pathology) is a complete cakewalk compared to say, dental physiology or medical physiology. It's strange to have to even state this, because it's not even close.

I'll agree on the physiology courses, but there is no grad physiology course so it's hard to compare. Physio is supposed to be the hardest class in the first year of dental school at UMDNJ and it takes up more time than any other class, plus it's worth 5 credits as opposed to 3 max in any other course at the grad school so it's supposed to cover twice as much material as other grad school courses. I've heard dental immuno, and dental biochem aren't that bad. I also took oral microbio and while it was difficult it was absolutely doable and only slightly harder than grad courses. Basically you're using the hardest courses of med and dental schools (along with MGM for med) as your standard for average and that's not fair as they're worth more credits and blow the other med and dental classes out of the water when it comes to difficulty.

 

[Quickdraw]

haha yea I suppose you have a point. There is a lot more material covered in a class like Dental Physiology as opposed to a grad course. When I was talking about being on par, I was specifically comparing Fundamentals I (which pretty much is Biochem) with Dental Biochemistry. I have taken Fund I last semester and am taking Dental Biochem this semester. Besides the fact that the course runs a lot longer and towards the end, you tend to focus on the dental aspect of things, the courses are very similar. Hell, half of the material that was covered on the first exam was taught by the same professor I had last semester for fundamentals.

Sure there are extremely difficult courses like Dental Physiology which are on a completely different scale than Graduate classes but part of what makes dental school so difficult, especially your first year is taking all these courses at once and having to juggle your time studying for all of them. I'm planning on taking only Dental Physiology next Fall to finish out my degree and I'm sure I'll find it quite difficult but I don't think it will be on the same difficulty (hopefully haha) as someone taking it with other dental courses. I'm not saying all the grad courses are on par with classes in Dental school but there are quite a few that I would say come close to being on par with some of the courses you will be taking in Dental school.

Dental Physio is widely considered the most difficult course of the first year - seven exams from Sep to early Dec. Other courses, say MGM in the medical school, are the same, because they come at you FAST, as that course is completed in a little over a month. Take a look at Oral Immuno, Oral Micro -- those courses by and large, are more competitive than both Fundamentals, despite a similar credit load. But that's the point in taking them to boost your credentials.

I know that it isn't very encouraging to say to people who are thinking about entering the program and want to rack up that high GPA to earn an interview -- but for those with a lower GPA and not ridiculously high DAT scores, these classes are a necessary risk. The director of Admissions at NJDS pretty much told a bunch of us point blank that they will not give out interviews to people with lower numbers and didn't do well in the dental school courses. They know the graduate courses aren't close to being as difficult. This past cycle, they refused to grant interviews to some people with lower GPAs who ducked the dental school courses, people who withdrew from dental physio to save their GPA, and from people who did poorly in dental school courses. It's not an easy thing to walk into knowing, but knowing has to be better than blissful ignorance.

 

[Quickdraw]

I'll agree on the physiology courses, but there is no grad physiology course so it's hard to compare. Physio is supposed to be the hardest class in the first year of dental school at UMDNJ and it takes up more time than any other class, plus it's worth 5 credits as opposed to 3 max in any other course at the grad school so it's supposed to cover twice as much material as other grad school courses. I've heard dental immuno, and dental biochem aren't that bad. I also took oral microbio and while it was difficult it was absolutely doable and only slightly harder than grad courses. Basically you're using the hardest courses of med and dental schools (along with MGM for med) as your standard for average and that's not fair as they're worth more credits and blow the other med and dental classes out of the water when it comes to difficulty.

Dental Physio being the metric that the Admissions committee reliably uses
is because it is challenging. That's the point. Tee credit load is also somewhat skewed - in terms of graduate credits, we receive 5. In terms of dental school students, they receive 12 (?) credits or something silly. The timeload is really far more than twice.

Oral micro is somewhat challenging and it is doable - but given this class operates on a class average and standard deviation, you have to outperform the class by a standard deviation to earn the desired target. I believe Scott mentioned 10 grad students got an A this year, whereas last year, 2 received an A, and 10+ received C's. Fundamentals I and II, however, are far, far less competitive. That is the point I am trying to make - not to say that dental school courses are impossibly difficult, but that the graduate school courses are less challenging. But this is really all heresay - make an appointment with the Admissions committee at NJDS to hear it for yourself. It's pretty wide knowledge that graduate school courses suffer from grade inflation, as the standard is set at the discretion of the instructor. The dental school grade scheme, however, is not set at the discretion of the instructor and is far more static.

 

[NJDental]

To the people on this thread currenty at UMDNJ doing the masters program...have any of you applied and gotten interviews for UMDNJ Fall 2011? Or even applied last cycle and are D-1s now?

There aren't any stats about the number of students that get accepted to NJDS after doing the masters program at UMDNJ, so I'm just trying to get a feel for how many students actually get in. Even if you know fellow classmates that didn't get into UMDNJ but other schools, please let me now.

Thanks in advance!!!!

 

[NJDental]

bump 👍

 

[Futuredds2010]

bump 👍 lol