Question to Anasazi23 (or anyone)

[abcxyz0123]

First of all, I thought I'd just post this on the forum, instead of as a private message, since it would probably prove useful for more than 1 person. Also, some of my questions could probably be answered by other people as well. Here goes nothin:



Anasazi23,

I read in one of your posts that you knew a forensic psychiatrist who made 750k a year in long island. Do you know:

1. How many hours a week he worked?

2. Whether he was purely a private practice doc, or if he did academics as well?

3. Whether he was just an average forensic doc without publications, whose salary was a result of him doing lots of forensic cases at average rates...or whether it was a result of him being well known/published, doing fewer cases, but charging a lot?

4. Related to the above question: do you know the amt of time he spent doing forensic work vs. general psychiatry work?

5. How many years it took him to get to that point?

6. Finally, my last question (this might be easier to answer for anyone else): Are the forensic psychiatrists who are most financially successful the ones who view the field as a business, and don't care enough to spend time advancing the field or their reputation through research/publications, but instead just churn out lots of reports/evaluations while charging average or below average rates? A few posters have said that in order to make the big bucks in forensics, you have to be like one of the Phil Resnicks of the world. But even though he might be able to charge 600/hr for his time, wouldn't he make less per year or just as much as any busy private practice doc who churned out lots of reports/evaluations, since Dr. Resnick probably spends most of his time NOT making 600/hr, but instead participating in less lucrative activities such as teaching and research?


THANK YOU. I am going to be shadowing a forensic psychiatrist this winter break, and I know I won't be able to ask him some of these salary type questions, so this is an enormous help.

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[michaelrack]

For any subspecialty of psychiatry, those who make the most money are NOT writing publications and are not doing research (except possbily clinical trials).

 

[Anasazi23]

First of all, I thought I'd just post this on the forum, instead of as a private message, since it would probably prove useful for more than 1 person. Also, some of my questions could probably be answered by other people as well. Here goes nothin:



Anasazi23,

I read in one of your posts that you knew a forensic psychiatrist who made 750k a year in long island. Do you know:

1. How many hours a week he worked?

2. Whether he was purely a private practice doc, or if he did academics as well?

3. Whether he was just an average forensic doc without publications, whose salary was a result of him doing lots of forensic cases at average rates...or whether it was a result of him being well known/published, doing fewer cases, but charging a lot?

4. Related to the above question: do you know the amt of time he spent doing forensic work vs. general psychiatry work?

5. How many years it took him to get to that point?

6. Finally, my last question (this might be easier to answer for anyone else): Are the forensic psychiatrists who are most financially successful the ones who view the field as a business, and don't care enough to spend time advancing the field or their reputation through research/publications, but instead just churn out lots of reports/evaluations while charging average or below average rates? A few posters have said that in order to make the big bucks in forensics, you have to be like one of the Phil Resnicks of the world. But even though he might be able to charge 600/hr for his time, wouldn't he make less per year or just as much as any busy private practice doc who churned out lots of reports/evaluations, since Dr. Resnick probably spends most of his time NOT making 600/hr, but instead participating in less lucrative activities such as teaching and research?


THANK YOU. I am going to be shadowing a forensic psychiatrist this winter break, and I know I won't be able to ask him some of these salary type questions, so this is an enormous help.

A lot of these details weren't explained to me in detail. And some of it was more legend than facts I could verify. However, I do know that he was exclusively private practice/salary based. In other words, I don't believe any academics were involved. I have no idea how long it took him to get to that point. Further, there were rumors of unscrupulous things going on as well. I'd rather leave it at that. Then again, others may see it as smart business practice.

You might be surprised that the forensic psychiatrist you shadow is more forthcoming with income information than other psychiatrists may be. From my experience, forensic psychs tend to be interested in the business end of 'the business', and are happy to discuss income generating strategies. I recently attended the tri-state AAPL night thingy and people asked these sorts of questions in more muted form directly to the presenters, who were generally happy to answer even in a public forum. Also, nearly every forensic psychiatrist I've worked with has been forthcoming (when I've asked) about money. They may not tell you their salary per se, but will let you do the math by telling you how much they charge per hour, how many cases they tend to do per month, how they charge patients, etc.

I feel like I've found my niche when I'm around other forensic psychiatrists. They are almost universally disinterested in therapy, take a certain enjoyment at being an impartial evaluater without finding a need to establish a therapeutic relationship, and they just seem to be straighter shooters than the rest. These same aspects of psychiatry are what many (most?) others love about the field - which demonstrates the variability within the profession as a whole. But to be clear, forensic psychiatrists are encouraged to maintain a private practice. So again, the above stuff will be needed there.

 

[whopper]

I feel like I've found my niche when I'm around other forensic psychiatrists. They are almost universally disinterested in therapy,

Funny because you & I are shooting for the same field. Personally I think I've found my niche because this is the one field where I see psychiatrists have an interest in preventing patients from manipulating & exploiting their illness (or lack thereof...) for benefits.

I had a malingerer who was trying to get out of going to prison on my unit, I & the psychologist I work with did a number of tests all of which were indicating the guy was malingering. I testified in court that the guy was IMHO & based on a reasonable degree of medical (& in the psychologist's case psychological) certainty faking his symptoms.

Had this been the regular clinical unit I've worked in residency, most of the docs just would've slapped a "Depressive DO NOS" for billing purposes & let the guy go on his merry way, even if they thought he was faking it, and the guy would've gotten a copy of his records, sought disability & used the dx to try to get some benefit or sympathy from the court.

I got sick of seeing that type of bull go on for 4 years in residency. I think that influenced me to want to go into forensic psychiatry--that & a lot of Batman comics.

 

[grandslam521]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but since you are on the topic of forensic psychiatry...

Since a lot of forensic psychiatrists testify in court, I would imagine that they must have excellent public speaking and communication skills. To all the forensic fellows and practicing forensic psychiatrists out there - did you do anything in particular to improve your public speaking/verbal communication skills before/while becoming a forensic psychiatrist? Is there anything I, as a medical student, could do to improve those types of skills while I'm still a student? Would joining Toastmasters or something like that significantly help?

Thanks

 

[whopper]

did you do anything in particular to improve your public speaking/verbal communication skills before/while becoming a forensic psychiatrist?

Being in medschool I'd worry more about passing USMLE & sharpening your clinical skills & learning more medical data.

Improving your interviewing skills will help your ability to publically communicate. So will teaching otthers by giving lectures, teaching etc.

 

[Anasazi23]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but since you are on the topic of forensic psychiatry...

Since a lot of forensic psychiatrists testify in court, I would imagine that they must have excellent public speaking and communication skills. To all the forensic fellows and practicing forensic psychiatrists out there - did you do anything in particular to improve your public speaking/verbal communication skills before/while becoming a forensic psychiatrist? Is there anything I, as a medical student, could do to improve those types of skills while I'm still a student? Would joining Toastmasters or something like that significantly help?

Thanks

It's all about "likeability" to the jury and ability to speak confidently. I think this is largely a 'you either have it or you don't' kind of thing. Though like all things in life, practice makes perfect. I think the latter is the take-home message.

In my forensic fellowship, we do lots of testifying. Nearly every week depending on your responsibilities.