Questions about Military Med. from a Premed

[devilpup]

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good thread

 

[Mirror Form]

I'd like to start off by saying that anybody who reads these boards and still decides to do HPSP is arrogant enough that they deserve exactly what they'll get. In regard to your specific questions:

Your first question is the typical type of thing you hear from a premed who has absolutely no clue what medicine and the military are like. After busting your arse day and day out in the medicine training environment, you're NOT going to feel like spending your tiny amount of free time / vacation time doing something like airborne school. Instead you'll want to take a real vacation or just sleep for a long time. And it's probably not feasible with the med school and residency schedules anyway.

Changes: you won't be finished training for about 10 more years. Who knows what will happen b/w now and then. Speculating about good and bad change is pointless.

A medical officer who's primary focus is to be a clinician cannot significantly impact that system. This is b/c in order to become a general you basically have to stop being a clinician. You can be a colonel and be a clinician (in fact, half the med corp seems to be colonels). But 06's are a dime a dozen and can't make any serious changes.

Sorry if I was a bit harsh. I get asked by premeds similar questions in person sometimes. I can't answer them candidly though due to fear of repercussions.

 

[Mirror Form]

Yes, any fool who would do their own research and come up with a conclusion different from you (an anonymous internet user) must, by definition, be an arrogant fool.

HPSP is a poor choice financially in most instances; fine. However, as others frequently point out here, money is frequently not the primary motivation when someone chooses to put on the uniform. Clearly the OP is one of those who wants to serve, is excited to do things in addition to clinical work, etc etc etc.

This is precisely the reason the SDN milmed forum is basically the same ten guys sitting around talking to each other: the moment anyone who is not an angry ex-military attending asks a question, they are immediately insulted and told they know nothing. This forum is a great way to find out the negatives about milmed, but beyond that it is a piss-poor resource, populated by docs who are more intersted in being angry than helping out those who are still coming up.

To the OP: I don't know how set you are on the Army, but in the Navy there is the opportunity to do dive school or a modified version of flight school. However, these occur after your intern year, and the tradeoff is that you function as a GMO, passing on time in residency training. I have also met two USUHS students who were given the opportunity to go to Jump school as med students, and they mention that they have had other military experiences. If you're not in med school yet, and are interested in the whole non-medical military thing, USUHS might be something for you to consider.

I've been on these boards for years, and used to be one of the people who was more pro-military back when I was in college and med school. Go search my earlier posts. Regardless, this board has a clear large consensus and it's not a coincidence.

 

[navdoc47]

You can have much more fun and excitement as a civilian than in the military. For instance:
1) want to play commando? go find a grp of friends and go play paintball. it's much more fun than walking around with flak/kevlar and heavy sappy plates, not to mention any additional gear you may have to carry. oh and if it's a rainy, muddy, or uncomfortable day, you can CANCEL the paintball event. but in the military, if it's a crappy day, guess what, you still get to go !! oh and after a long day of playing commando in the military, you get to freshen up with water in your camelback. play paintball, and you can end the day with a nice cold beer.

2) want to go to jump school? go pay for some skydiving lessons. much more luxurious to do on your own time than having to go to some school where you get to wake up super early, eat crappy food, etc.

3) want to learn to fly? as a flight surgeon in the navy, you'll get a very watered down flight instruction course. And you won't ever fly any single seat hornet. But if you truly want to learn to fly, go get your pilots license at your local airport.

4) want to go diving? go to south florida and get your dive license. scenery is nicer than any 'mission' dive. plus the cold beer too...

and so on and so forth...just my 2 cents 😛

 

[R-Me-Doc]

You can have much more fun and excitement as a civilian than in the military. For instance:
1) want to play commando? go find a grp of friends and go play paintball. it's much more fun than walking around with flak/kevlar and heavy sappy plates, not to mention any additional gear you may have to carry. oh and if it's a rainy, muddy, or uncomfortable day, you can CANCEL the paintball event. but in the military, if it's a crappy day, guess what, you still get to go !! oh and after a long day of playing commando in the military, you get to freshen up with water in your camelback. play paintball, and you can end the day with a nice cold beer.

2) want to go to jump school? go pay for some skydiving lessons. much more luxurious to do on your own time than having to go to some school where you get to wake up super early, eat crappy food, etc.

3) want to learn to fly? as a flight surgeon in the navy, you'll get a very watered down flight instruction course. And you won't ever fly any single seat hornet. But if you truly want to learn to fly, go get your pilots license at your local airport.

4) want to go diving? go to south florida and get your dive license. scenery is nicer than any 'mission' dive. plus the cold beer too...

and so on and so forth...just my 2 cents 😛

And if you're into the whole "serving your country" thing, you can always work in a clinic in an underserved area, tutor kids after school, work for the public health or Indian Health services . . . you know, the whole "charity begins at home" thing. Or, you can even go on missions to the 3rd world, if you want something more exotic. All on your own schedule and convenience, not the Army's.

X-RMD

 

[mississippi DO]

Devilpup,

Don't let all of these losers who have nothing better to do than post 5000+ posts on how bad their life sucks because of mil med discourage you. You're only hearing the opinions of those whining, crying biotches who spend a lot of their time ranting and raving about how broken military medicine is. There are thousands of military docs out there. How many are on this forum, maybe about 20-50 regularly? Ultimately, its up to you to make up your own mind. I feel absolutely blessed that I'm going to be serving my country and practicing medicine at the same time. Those who don't get excited about this should not do HPSP, but for those who do, the HPSP is an excellent choice.

 

[NavyFP]

I’ll be applying to medical school this year, and I’m seriously considering military medicine as a career option. Although I don’t usually post, I’ve been reading this forum for several years now, and have used this forum as a resource – such that I can make an informed decision (Pros/Cons) when considering military medicine.

My Question:

Is it possible (or probable) to train at non-medically related schools in the military even though you are in the medical corps and not in a combat unit. No doubt that the military has unique training opportunities like parachuting, diving, medic training, etc. Hence schools like the: Army parachutist School, ARMY Diving school, Air Assault School, Free-fall school, Expert Field Medic training etc. Will these training opportunities be open to me despite my primary goal of becoming a clinician? Why would the ARMY want to spend money in me for such training if I won’t be using such skills on a frequent basis like SOF/combat personnel? Yes you can, but you will have to seek out those opportunities. I have friends who have done jump school, air assault school and EFM training. One did HALO.

Having the opportunity, nonetheless, would be cool…

What kinds of changes are expected in the near future for military medicine? Currently, there has been an increased awareness of the hampering bureaucracy that affects military medicine and its beneficiaries (e.g. WRAMC scandal). Are such changes going to lead our military medicine system in the right direction or further exacerbate the current problems which have been extensively addressed in this forum? Hard to predict. A unified medical command may be in the cards by the time you finish training. In the end, money will continue to be tight, and costs will continue to go up. VADM Arthur (Navy SG) was lamenting the budget cuts in the near future to Congress. We will see if they were listening.

Can medical officers whose primary focus is being a clinician (as oppose to administrators O-6 & above) significantly impact the system? If so, how?
Yes, you can impact the system in small ways. Start with those who work for you and make their lives better. It can spread.

Can you attain the rank of Colonel or Brigade General and still be a clinician? Or will the system force you to take on more administrative roles while your clinical skills atrophy? COL - yes, Brigadier General - No. Although I did know a Navy 2 star orthopod who still saw patients. (no operating though) Can there be a compromise between both?

For those of us premeds who decide to pursue mil medicine, what can we do so that we don’t become part of the problem(s) of military med? Is compliancy the only option? Be positive, be respectful, don't complain, unless you have a workable solution. Don't accept mediocrity.

Thanks in advance.

My two cents.

 

[USAFdoc]

Devilpup,

Don't let all of these losers who have nothing better to do than post 5000+ posts on how bad their life sucks because of mil med discourage you. You're only hearing the opinions of those whining, crying biotches who spend a lot of their time ranting and raving about how broken military medicine is. There are thousands of military docs out there. How many are on this forum, maybe about 20-50 regularly? Ultimately, its up to you to make up your own mind. I feel absolutely blessed that I'm going to be serving my country and practicing medicine at the same time. Those who don't get excited about this should not do HPSP, but for those who do, the HPSP is an excellent choice.

1) Yes there are hundreds of milmed docs out there. During my milmed career, 100% of the FPs doc separated or went admin. Nearly 100% of the docs (FP) on this site are consistent with the condition of milmed (poor).
2) You mentioned you are "GOING TO BE SERVING YOUR COUNTRY" which infers that you are another in the list of people that feel you can berate the docs that have "BEEN THERE" even though your expereince in apparently lacking.
3) I feel absolutely blessed that I have the opportunity to be a physician, and had the chance to serve my country (enlisted nuke and officer physician). That does not mean that I have to look the other way when the milmed system is broken on so many levels and does compromise care and safety of patients.
4)HPSP is a great choice for people willing to gamble on their career; be admin instead of clinicians; AND, are willing to serve their country NO MATTER WHAT.
5) What do you think, that none of us ex-mil docs were excited about our future milmed careers? Get real. The problem is NOT with the thousands of milmed docs that left, the problem is with milmed.
6) As for your personal attacks and word choice, hey, the truth is alot more important to me than your misguided attacks.👎

 

[Mirror Form]

6) As for your personal attacks and word choice, hey, the truth is alot more important to me than your misguided attacks.👎

I think his personal attacks are funny b/c it's obvious he has zero experience. I've never met a single active duty doc that wouldn't at least acknowledge the criticism brought about by many members on this forum, and that includes the uber patriotic lifers (there are some of those in mil med, just not many who haven't become disenchanted). Of course the med service corp and everyone else in the military think the docs have it sooooo easy, and that we're all just a bunch of whiners.

So mississippi, you're welcome to your own opinions that are probably based on what the movies, your recruiter, or military experience of the non-physician variety. All completely non-applicable.

 

[LumberJack]

I think his personal attacks are funny b/c it's obvious he has zero experience. I've never met a single active duty doc that wouldn't at least acknowledge the criticism brought about by many members on this forum, and that includes the uber patriotic lifers (there are some of those in mil med, just not many who haven't become disenchanted). Of course the med service corp and everyone else in the military think the docs have it sooooo easy, and that we're all just a bunch of whiners.

So mississippi, you're welcome to your own opinions that are probably based on what the movies, your recruiter, or military experience of the non-physician variety. All completely non-applicable.

I think my post would be better placed under the "Reasons Not to Join MilMed" thread, but the above post inspired me to ask a question here:

Under what conditions (branch of service, geographic location, medical specialty, rank) do you guys think a military medical doctor WOULD be happy with his/her job?

I'm a civilian applying to USUHS next year, and this forum has been tremendously helpful to me so far (including positive and negative posts). Anyway, maybe my question above will get some good dialogue going about different career circumstances.

 

[g293]

I think my post would be better placed under the "Reasons Not to Join MilMed" thread, but the above post inspired me to ask a question here:

Under what conditions (branch of service, geographic location, medical specialty, rank) do you guys think a military medical doctor WOULD be happy with his/her job?

I'm a civilian applying to USUHS next year, and this forum has been tremendously helpful to me so far (including positive and negative posts). Anyway, maybe my question above will get some good dialogue going about different career circumstances.

What conditions would make us happy? Let's see:
-Ability to practice medicine the bulk of the time instead of internet training, "mobility exercises" where we sit in a theater and pretend we are being deployed, mandatory suicide awareness training, mandatory equal opportunity/sexual harassment training, etc. We are one of the few career fields in the military that generally does our wartime job every day no matter where we are. Let us do it.
-Resources to practice medicine. I have no nurses to help out, so guess who enters all those prescriptions, calls every patient back on every question no matter how small or simple, code my own clinic visits, code my own inpatient consults, etc.
-Freedom from administrative harassment. Our clinics are observed by leadership, and they will step in to add on to your already busy day with extra paperwork, new policies, required forms, etc. You have never seen micromanagement until you have worked in a military hospital. Often this oversight is from Medical Service Corps officers, nurses who haven't taken care of a patient in years and have no idea what you are doing and how much work it takes to try and deliver quality care to your patients.
-Pay somewhat equal to your civilian counterparts--not even close in my specialty.

That's a few things to start with..........🙂

 

[LumberJack]

That's a few things to start with..........🙂

Thanks, g293. I appreciate you taking the time to convey your sentiments. That has been the general picture painted of MilMed since I've been watching this forum, but my objective in my last post was more to probe the inter-service, inter-rank, inter-specialty, inter-facility differences in those general MilMed problems.

For example, how do these hypothetical people probably like their jobs:

01. Navy O-3, Internist, at NNMC
02. Air Force O-4, General Surgeon, at Scott AFB
03. Army O-5, Pathologist, at BAMC
04. Air Force O-3, GMO, Iraq
05. Army O-4, Anesthesiologist, Eisenhower
06. Navy O-5, Family Practice, Pensacola

And other permutations of Branch/Rank/Specialtiy/Location/Other criteria.

Someone stop me if I'm trying to start an absurd conversation...I just thought it would be an interesting thing to ask.

Thank you.

 

[West Side]

You're only looking at the "supply" side of the equation. You aren't talking about the mindset/nature of the person being put into each of these slots. Without that, the conversation is pure conjecture, and probably unuseful.

 

[devilpup]

"Hard to predict. A unified medical command may be in the cards by the time you finish training. In the end, money will continue to be tight, and costs will continue to go up. VADM Arthur (Navy SG) was lamenting the budget cuts in the near future to Congress. We will see if they were listening."


I didn’t mean to start such heated discussion (e.g. name-calling), but thanks for all the constructive responses.

Perhaps the problems are rooted within politics; a congress who fails to adequately fund and support mil med., despite the obvious signs which point to a military med system in crisis – this according to many of you who HAVE served. From what I’ve read here in the past, TRICARE is a major culprit, as managed care takes precedence over quality patient care. Unfortunately, as many of you have already pointed out, the solution is a total collapse or fundamental restructuring of the Milmed system.

I had the privilege to meet with VADM Donald C Arthur (Navy SG) this past winter, when he came down to UCSD to talk to undergrads about Milmed/personal experiences. He seemed like a nice fellow, and left a lasting impression on many of us. It was a great honor. But apparently, being the SG of the Navy (O-9) w/ good intentions and awareness of these issues, is not enough…makes me wonder if the new meat feeding the machine is the real problem…

I truly want to serve, and have good intentions in mind, but every time I read this forum I get too fu**ng discouraged. I’ll eventually make a decision, and hopefully become part of a “workable solution.” Despite the consequences, if in case I do decide to serve, I’ll remember:

Be positive, be respectful, don't complain, unless you have a workable solution. Don't accept mediocrity.

thanks
-devilpup

 

[Mirror Form]

I had the privilege to meet with VADM Donald C Arthur (Navy SG) this past winter, when he came down to UCSD to talk to undergrads about Milmed/personal experiences. He seemed like a nice fellow, and left a lasting impression on many of us. It was a great honor. But apparently, being the SG of the Navy (O-9) w/ good intentions and awareness of these issues, is not enough…makes me wonder if the new meat feeding the machine is the real problem…

I don't know any anything about that particular VADM. But here's some info on generals and admirals that will help you better understand the situation:

1. All generals/admirals are very very smooth. You get to be in their positions by having everybody like you, speaking well, etc . ..

2. You dont' get a bunch of stars by bringing up problems that are very difficult to fix or would require tons of additional money to fix. You get promoted by pretending everything running great under your watch . . . so great in fact that you're cutting the budget and not hiring as many ancillary staff.

3. In most areas of the military, the best personel get promoted to flag officers. Whereas, in order to become a general in military medicine you basically have to stop being a doctor (i know a colonel who's been offered a star 3 times, but keeps turning it down b/c he wants to be a doctor). Are the best in brightest in medicine the ones who leave behind patient care? No, it might even be the opposite.

 

[LumberJack]

You're only looking at the "supply" side of the equation. You aren't talking about the mindset/nature of the person being put into each of these slots. Without that, the conversation is pure conjecture, and probably unuseful.

You're right, it is conjectural. I was merely trying to use well-formed criteria such as rank/branch/specialty/location rather than something like "personality type."

The results of the conversation might not be 100% applicable, but they would be useful to some degree (p-value <0.05). 🙂

 

[DeadCactus]

"No doubt that the military has unique training opportunities like parachuting, diving, medic training, etc."

It's strange that you didn't list a single training opportunity unique to the military.

I know waiters at Chili's who probably have more sky dives (including HALO) than most people jumping in the military. Same goes for SCUBA. There's no shortage of wilderness/tactical/disaster medicine training (especially for physicians).

And it's a heck of a lot expedient to shell out some cash to a company and go to the training than to pray you can convince the military to cut you some orders.

The only unique part in the military is getting shot at; and as a physician, the military is going to be doing it's damnedest to keep you away from that side of things.

I'm all for military service if one comes to the conclusion that it is something they want to do. But something about the guys who go on and on about wanting to do airborne school, but never going down to the local civilian jump zone and shelling out $200 to do a jump irks me...

 

[i want out]

"
The only unique part in the military is getting shot at; and as a physician, the military is going to be doing it's damnedest to keep you away from that side of things.

DON'T COUNT ON IT...

if your CO thinks he can gain even one brownie point toward getting his next promotion, he will put your a$$ on the firing line in a heart beat.

I have personally been there...

i want out

 

[Ex-44E3A]

I feel absolutely blessed that I'm going to be serving my country and practicing medicine at the same time.

Heh.

Who was it who said "there's no fool like a young fool?"

Construct whatever ego defense you require to cover up your unease of what's to come. When your idealism is ground down to a tiny nub, and the realization slowly dawns on you that all is not as it seems, we'll be here to help you navigate the minefield, despite your aspersions and snark.

Whatever happens, don't despair. It's only temporary. There are few days so dark as when the idealist is first shorn of his illusions.

 

[notdeadyet]

Who was it who said "there's no fool like a young fool?"

Ray Price. And every teacher who's set foot in a classroom...

 

[mumiitroll]

you sound gay.
1) how could paintball have anything to do with anything military?? at least if you're going to suggest something similar, try mountaineering. to make it more realistic, try to do it alpine-style and also wear a bulletproof vest and a rifle. and try to get friends to go along with you, you know to take time off their residencies or full-time jobs. that's why your "paintball" idea seems more realistic, you might also suggest "play some world of warcraft", because thats all that most professionals manage to do nowadays. And then they suddenly wish to go to Mt Everest when they're retired at 55yo...

2) again, the idea behind being a parachutist is that you jump and then you walk through the woods pretending to be on some mission. DMO Marine Recon docs can do this as part of their training. But more important is that they're not alone but go on these games with the other guys. they can make friends who share common interests for danger. While if you're in a hospital, you can only make friends who will go to the opera with you.
3) as a flight doc, you can fly in a double seat jet! can you do it as a civilian? on the other hand, you'll be certain to get a private pilot license and rent the planes on the base, while as a civilian it is unusual for docs to fly a plane, most have trouble driving a car! most doctors lead very boring lives. as a flight doc, you'll be drinking beer with professional pilots, not with some dorks who think that paintball is equivalent to war.
4) nobody stops you from getting your diving or pilot certificates before, during, or after your military service. but i'm sure once you separate from the military and get your trophy wife and a house on the beach, you'll miss your experiences, and you'll have a lot of real friends.

You can have much more fun and excitement as a civilian than in the military. For instance:
1) want to play commando? go find a grp of friends and go play paintball. it's much more fun than walking around with flak/kevlar and heavy sappy plates, not to mention any additional gear you may have to carry. oh and if it's a rainy, muddy, or uncomfortable day, you can CANCEL the paintball event. but in the military, if it's a crappy day, guess what, you still get to go !! oh and after a long day of playing commando in the military, you get to freshen up with water in your camelback. play paintball, and you can end the day with a nice cold beer.

2) want to go to jump school? go pay for some skydiving lessons. much more luxurious to do on your own time than having to go to some school where you get to wake up super early, eat crappy food, etc.

3) want to learn to fly? as a flight surgeon in the navy, you'll get a very watered down flight instruction course. And you won't ever fly any single seat hornet. But if you truly want to learn to fly, go get your pilots license at your local airport.

4) want to go diving? go to south florida and get your dive license. scenery is nicer than any 'mission' dive. plus the cold beer too...

and so on and so forth...just my 2 cents 😛

p.s. chicks dig military doctors.

 

[Mirror Form]

you sound gay.
1) how could paintball have anything to do with anything military?? at least if you're going to suggest something similar, try mountaineering. to make it more realistic, try to do it alpine-style and also wear a bulletproof vest and a rifle. and try to get friends to go along with you, you know to take time off their residencies or full-time jobs. that's why your "paintball" idea seems more realistic, you might also suggest "play some world of warcraft", because thats all that most professionals manage to do nowadays. And then they suddenly wish to go to Mt Everest when they're retired at 55yo...

2) again, the idea behind being a parachutist is that you jump and then you walk through the woods pretending to be on some mission. DMO Marine Recon docs can do this as part of their training. But more important is that they're not alone but go on these games with the other guys. they can make friends who share common interests for danger. While if you're in a hospital, you can only make friends who will go to the opera with you.

He was making a point that naive premeds think that they're somehow going to be both a doctor and some bada$$ ranger if they do HPSP. In reality, it's a silly notion. You wont' get any significant training unless you do it INSTEAD of residency (i.e., gmo) and even then your military training is watered down and at the end of the day you're still just another nerdy doctor.

3) as a flight doc, you can fly in a double seat jet! can you do it as a civilian? on the other hand, you'll be certain to get a private pilot license and rent the planes on the base, while as a civilian it is unusual for docs to fly a plane, most have trouble driving a car! most doctors lead very boring lives. as a flight doc, you'll be drinking beer with professional pilots, not with some dorks who think that paintball is equivalent to war.

You can only fly if you do it instead of residency training. That's not something most people joining HPSP want. And even so, you're still not allowed to take off or land.

4) nobody stops you from getting your diving or pilot certificates before, during, or after your military service. but i'm sure once you separate from the military and get your trophy wife and a house on the beach, you'll miss your experiences, and you'll have a lot of real friends.

There are many military doctors I know who've gotten out and do say they miss the camraderie of military medicine. However, they also have 50 times more things to say about how great getting out has been.

p.s. chicks dig military doctors.

yeah, too bad you'll probably be stationed in some crappy location where the only single women who have graduated HS are already married or divorced with 5 kids.

 

[Ex-44E3A]

you sound gay.

WTF? Did you really just whip out that grade-school taunt in this forum?

NavDoc's point is very applicable. As a civilian, you can have fun and do all sorts of high-speed recreational stuff on your own terms, and without being forced to embrace the suck.

How many military doctors are actual fighter pilots? Damned few (none)... and bragging about having flown back-seat in a fighter sounds absolutely 100% lame to anyone who knows anything about it.

gain, the idea behind being a parachutist is that you jump and then you walk through the woods pretending to be on some mission.

Ummm... the "fun" part is the actual skydiving and free-fall (I am an ex-parachutist). Everything else about that tends to suck. Being a civilian skydiver is 110% fun, and you get better gear (and get to do more fun stuff) than any military static-line guy (with the possible exception of the golden knights).

i'm sure once you separate from the military and get your trophy wife and a house on the beach, you'll miss your experiences, and you'll have a lot of real friends.

I have plenty of real friends, and my lovely wife keeps me very happy .

There's something to be said about having total control over your own time, and choosing the "fun" experiences that you want to do. There may not be as much macho bragging-rights involved, but most adults really don't care about that anyway.

 

[R-Me-Doc]

For example, how do these hypothetical people probably like their jobs:

01. Navy O-3, Internist, at NNMC
02. Air Force O-4, General Surgeon, at Scott AFB
03. Army O-5, Pathologist, at BAMC
04. Air Force O-3, GMO, Iraq
05. Army O-4, Anesthesiologist, Eisenhower
06. Navy O-5, Family Practice, Pensacola

Oh, what the heck, I'll bite on this one . . . .

01. Navy O-3, Internist, at NNMC
A navy O3 at NNMC is an intern or resident. He/she is relatively isolated from the political/bureaucratic crap, too new to the system, and too terrified of screwing up during some attending rounds pimp session to know or care about anything else. Since "ignorance is bliss," they like their job just fine.

02. Air Force O-4, General Surgeon, at Scott AFB
Probably has so few surgical cases that he couldn't tear an appendix out of a book at this point. As an O4, probably has at least some hellish admin duties as well. Pretty much hates his job and spends most of his time looking for his post-separation civilian job.

03. Army O-5, Pathologist, at BAMC
Pretty nice assignment. More or less cosmopolitan location, lots of golf, the Riverwalk, good Tex-Mex. Multiple other pathologists to share work with. Academic center. Paths don't get deployed. Salary a little low compared to civilian, but overall, this guy LOVES his job . . .

04. Air Force O-3, GMO, Iraq
Air Force + GMO + Iraq. You can figure this one out yourself . . .

05. Army O-4, Anesthesiologist, Eisenhower
Maybe does one case a day and then spends rest of day complaining how nurse anesthetists are taking over his field. Can't wait to go civilian so he can still do one case a day and complain about how nurse anesthetists are taking over his field, but then he'll be getting paid 5x his Army salary.

06. Navy O-5, Family Practice, Pensacola
Likes things just fine since a) he's counting down the days to 20 years, b) he's in Florida, and c) he knows the Navy pension will sorta sweeten the fact that as an FP he really won't make much more in the civ world than he did in the military. But deep down he's also kind of afraid of the civilian work pace, since as a Navy doc he's never seen more than 10 patients a day . . .



This was fun! How 'bout more questions like this!

X-RMD
😀 😀 😀

 

[LumberJack]

This was fun! How 'bout more questions like this!

So happy to oblige! Thanks for playing along, R-Me-Doc.

 

[FizbanZymogen]

You know, despite all the negatives I read on these boards my own conversations with civilian and military docs stands in stark contrast to what is being said here by the same 20 guys.

I worked for two years at my local ER and have family/personal relationships with 2 of the docs and know the other 5 very well. These docs are bitter/pissed and overworked too. In fact each of them STRONGLY encouraged me to choose another path (anything other than medicine). I clearly remember one night, the ER was packed and some MHA comes down, pulls 2 docs aside and chews their heads off becuase the charts for the month had just come out and it showed they were spending too much time with the patients. Here are guys saving lives and they get their @$$'s chewed in a very public way by some business degree idiot. This happens all the time (and I know your going to say this happens in the military too. I just wanted to point out what you guys have to look forward to when you get out).

I have spoken to as many Army docs as I possibly could over the past couple of weeks to help decide between two MD acceptances (UW & USUHS). Every military Doc I spoke with (some were very close family friends who didn't pull any puches) were much more positive and happy with their lives than the civ. docs I worked/spoke with. In fact, two psych. docs I spoke with here at Madigan not only love their work (after having spent time in Iraq and Korea) but said if their children were going into medicine they would strongly encourage them to do it through the military.

I know many of you have some very strong opinions on these boards and are very vocal about them. I would be too. We tend to be the most vocal about issues that strike close to home and I can't blame you for your anger. But I have to tell you many of you come across childish, immature and just plain idiotic (and yes I know, you think the same things about me so save it). Many of you have posted valuable insights and logical reasons for your feelings and these posts are highly appreciated. To those who jump on new and excited future military docs like starving wolves in the artic tundra, lay off. let us hit the ground running if nothing else. Many of you have left the military but can't leave the military alone.

Please, please chill out some of you. Just becuase many of you on these boards are pissed about your life's choices doesn't mean everybody else in milmed is too. Your like a gang of bullies determined to own these boards and paint a personal picture that suits your desires. Anytime anyone has anything positive to say you all immediately jump on (at a ratio of about 10:1) and beat the poster seneless and that guy/girl never comes back.

Anyway, I don't know what the h3!! I am still doing up at 3 in the morning but I just wanted to get this off my chest.


(Braces for the incoming tidal wave)

 

[SeminoleFan3]

I have spoken to as many Army docs as I possibly could over the past couple of weeks to help decide between two MD acceptances (UW & USUHS). Every military Doc I spoke with (some were very close family friends who didn't pull any puches) were much more positive and happy with their lives than the civ. docs I worked/spoke with. In fact, two psych. docs I spoke with here at Madigan not only love their work (after having spent time in Iraq and Korea) but said if their children were going into medicine they would strongly encourage them to do it through the military.

I concur, Fizban. I talked to numerous military docs before deciding to pursue an HPSP scholarship. Everyone I talked to (from resident to GMO to Admiral-select) loved their job.

 

[USAFdoc]

You know, despite all the negatives I read on these boards my own conversations with civilian and military docs stands in stark contrast to what is being said here by the same 20 guys.

I do not have a great explaination for your comment/experience here. Again, 100% of the USAF Primary Care clinic physicians describe terrible condition. The only docs I met that had some positive things to say were stationed overseas or at the USAF Academy. It would like to know the locales of these docs you said LOVED Milmed and were thay still 100% clinicians (or ADMIN)?

I worked for two years at my local ER and have family/personal relationships with 2 of the docs and know the other 5 very well. These docs are bitter/pissed and overworked too. In fact each of them STRONGLY encouraged me to choose another path (anything other than medicine).

The BIG difference here (although not the only one) is that if the Civilian Med job gets "Unacceptible", then one can leave.

I just wanted to point out what you guys have to look forward to when you get out).

As I have said before; in terms of Primary Care, I now have a clinic in which the EVERYTHING is done better, staffed better, better EMR, better pay, fewer hours, more autonomy, better morale, etc. Just how many primary care docs are flocking back to milmed because it is better than the civ med?

I have spoken to as many Army docs as I possibly could over the past couple of weeks to help decide between two MD acceptances (UW & USUHS). Every military Doc I spoke with (some were very close family friends who didn't pull any puches) were much more positive and happy with their lives than the civ. docs I worked/spoke with.

didn't pull punches, or didn't punch at all? Again, I would like to know locales and are these clinicians. Future milmed docs would like to know and start heading to what sounds like the a last oasis of milmed according to your description.

Just becuase many of you on these boards are pissed about your life's choices doesn't mean everybody else in milmed is too.

As for myself, I am not "pissed about life choices", more it is I am angry that yours and my country would run milmed (in general) like it is doing. Are there some good things milmed does? ABSOLUTELY ! Are there things that are completely UNACCEPTABLE? ABSOLUTELY! There are "wrong" "things" I saw in USAF Primary Care that simply NEVER, EVER happen in the civilian world and should never happen anywhere ever. Any doc worth his degree will not stand fro that kind of problems.

 

[Ex-44E3A]

Please, please chill out some of you. Just becuase many of you on these boards are pissed about your life's choices doesn't mean everybody else in milmed is too. Your like a gang of bullies determined to own these boards and paint a personal picture that suits your desires. Anytime anyone has anything positive to say you all immediately jump on (at a ratio of about 10:1) and beat the poster seneless and that guy/girl never comes back.

I think you're going to find that many of us save our most distilled vitriol for those who speak sans experience or applicable background. I'm amazed at the number of medical students or pre-meds who feel compelled to tell me how I'm a Nancy-boy beeyotch, or don't know WTH I'm talking about, because this really cool recruiter gave them the real skinny.

I frankly just chuckle at that... because, in the immortal words of the Rolling Stones, "Tiiiime is on my side... Yes it is!" Those dismissive young students will get their chance to earn their spurs in milmed. After that, if they still feel like coming here and telling me how I'm a whining wussy and totally full of ****, then and only then will I listen to their opinion.

I'm glad there are military docs who are satisfied with their practice (I can think of damned few I ever knew who truly met that description, but I suppose it's possible), but those of us who caution premeds about what they're facing are not just making all this up. We've been there, and remember the experience all too well. How else to explain the single-digit military medicine retention rates? I can guarantee it's not because 90% of us are money-grubbing ****** who are only in it for the money, or shrieking flag-burning communists who hate serving our country...

I worked for two years at my local ER and have family/personal relationships with 2 of the docs and know the other 5 very well. These docs are bitter/pissed and overworked too.

Welcome to emergency medicine... it's a big **** sandwich nationwide, where everybody has to take a bite. As for administrative interference, I've been in civilian ER practice in multiple hospitals for a decade between my moonlighting and after I separated... and I've never had administrative interference anywhere near what I suffered in the military. And in the civilian world, if they push me too far, I can tell them to "get f***ed," and walk away... trying doing that to Colonel Schmuckatelli.

It's night-and-day different getting patients taken care of in civilian ER practice versus the military. It's easier, I have better ancillary staff support, administration supports me in various pissing contests that inevitably arise (I keep the patients happy and don't generate complaints), and the medical resources I can bring to bear for the patients are vastly greater.

And the kicker? I work at a community hospital now, and in the military I practiced at a major military medical center.

Make of that what you will.

 

[mitchconnie]

To those who jump on new and excited future military docs like starving wolves in the artic tundra, lay off. let us hit the ground running if nothing else. Many of you have left the military but can't leave the military alone.

I agree with your assertion that people are too quick to jump on students who have unrealistic ideas about the military. After all, it is the student doctor forums, and I think some people would make their point better if they were less caustic. But for some of the experienced “been there, done that” guys, I’m sure it’s hard to resist. Most of the info on this board is great, but two types of posts are absolutely loaded and inevitably draw heavy fire (I just cringe and brace for impact when see it)

1. The ‘I want to be a cardiologist/airborne ranger or navy seal/neurosurgeon or fighter pilot/pediatrician’ post. Just such a grossly unrealistic, recruiter-driven fantasy that most people can’t help but be annoyed.

2. The “you guys pointing out problems are unpatriotic whiners and my recruiter, Dad, uncle Bob, or neighbor said it was a great deal” post. I’m sure joining military medicine has been a great career move for some people, but why not get a candid picture of the current state of military practice for the average young doc.

When an experienced military doc comes down hard on one of these posts, what they really wish they could do is go back in time and come down hard on their 21 year-old, naïve self and tell them not to sign on the dotted line. Hindsight is probably at least 20/40.

Having perused this board intermittently for several years, it’s striking how some posters start off angrily denying the problems within milmed, and then as their career progresses slowly realize that mil-MD or USAFdoc were spot-on with a lot of their observations. What was once a lone voice in the wilderness (mil-MD), is now a chorus of criticism. Surely there must be something to it.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Having perused this board intermittently for several years, it’s striking how some posters start off angrily denying the problems within milmed, and then as their career progresses slowly realize that mil-MD or USAFdoc were spot-on with a lot of their observations. What was once a lone voice in the wilderness (mil-MD), is now a chorus of criticism. Surely there must be something to it.

Agreed. I have been here for 6-7 years and originally the only staff level doc posting was milmed. While every day of military medical practice isn't quite as bad as reading this forum might lead some to believe, there are many days that are just as bad as it sounds. I had two of them this week, including one day where some of my privileges were essentially taken away because the nursing supervisor in the hospital decided the hospital nurses weren't "comfortable" supporting my needs (which required them to do a little more work than they prefer.)

P.S. There is very serious discussion about pushing this fall's Air Force medical deployments from 4 months to 6 months. Merry Christmas!

 

[The White Coat Investor]

you sound gay.

Your name says it all.

at least if you're going to suggest something similar, try mountaineering.

I'd love to, but the military refused to station me anywhere near mountains despite my requests.

2) again, the idea behind being a parachutist is that you jump and then you walk through the woods pretending to be on some mission. DMO Marine Recon docs can do this as part of their training. But more important is that they're not alone but go on these games with the other guys. they can make friends who share common interests for danger.

Hmmm....perhaps you haven't spent much time walking through the woods pretending to be on some mission. It gets old really fast. You know what gets old even faster? Walking through the desert NOT pretending you're on a mission, but getting shot at. Some docs do that too. In fact, every doc in theater never knows when a mortar round is going to go off in the middle of his ER. I don't know any soldiers who "share common interests for danger." Most just want to serve their country, make a buck, and get back to their wife and kids.

3) as a flight doc, you can fly in a double seat jet! can you do it as a civilian? on the other hand, you'll be certain to get a private pilot license and rent the planes on the base, while as a civilian it is unusual for docs to fly a plane, most have trouble driving a car! most doctors lead very boring lives. as a flight doc, you'll be drinking beer with professional pilots, not with some dorks who think that paintball is equivalent to war.

This is true, and I know a few docs who have done it. But MOST flight docs don't get to fly in a fighter jet. BTW, it certainly is not unusual for a doctor to be a private pilot outside of the military. I know several. I'm not sure why you think most doctors lead very boring lives, many of us dive, climb, ski, parachute etc. Most soldiers live very boring lives in my opinion. One of the worst things about deployment (aside from the family separation and the constant threat of IEDs and mortars) is dealing with the monotony.

p.s. chicks dig military doctors.

Yup. They love having a spouse who disappears for months at a time, who makes half of what he could if had read SDN before signing up, and is at the beck and call of a "commander" to do whatever that commander wants him to do. That's why the divorce rate is just so low for military docs.

 

[R-Me-Doc]

I just wanted to point out what you guys have to look forward to when you get out.

I am out. I'm never going back. Neither has anyone else I've known. That pretty much says it all.

If military medicine is so great, how come top-notch civilian docs aren't pounding on the door to get in? The only docs I've encountered who gave up established civilian careers to join the active duty military were basically so incompetent or crazy that they simply couldn't practice in the civilian world anymore. Like the resume that crossed my desk one day listing the applicants ONE DOZEN settled or adverse lawsuit judgements. Agreed, that's probably an outlier, but it illustrates my point.

(Braces for the incoming tidal wave)

Well, at least you have a sense of humor . . .


X-RMD

 

[R-Me-Doc]

. . . . the nursing supervisor in the hospital decided the hospital nurses weren't "comfortable" supporting my needs (which required them to do a little more work than they prefer.)

Isn't it amazing how the "comfort level" of military nurses overrides the needs of the patients and physicians?

"Comfort level" is, of course, a euphemism for "skills and desire to learn more, possibly entailing some additional work or training on your part." In my world, anyone who complained that their "comfort level" was being exceeded would be given two options. Let's see if someone can guess what they are . . . 😀


X-RMD

 

[mitchconnie]

I concur, Fizban. I talked to numerous military docs before deciding to pursue an HPSP scholarship. Everyone I talked to (from resident to GMO to Admiral-select) loved their job.

I don’t doubt for a second that this is true, since a lot of students post the same thing, but I can’t for the life of me figure out what’s going on. I’m wondering how you arranged your shadowing experiences. Was it via a recruiter, or perhaps via the hospital administration? I’m thinking that maybe you are being steered in the direction of departments or individuals who are uniquely positive about milmed. I know that our Department of Surgery used to see a lot of prospective HPSP students referred from the local healthcare recruiter. But then once the downsizing started and all the physicians became very unhappy, we never saw another student again. I’m thinking that you may be getting a biased sample.

I’ve met a lot of physicians in 11 years of military practice--administrators who enjoyed chasing a star, lifers who were hunkered down and waiting for retirement, miserable O-4’s who spent all day thinking about the day they could get out, and a few true believers who tried to battle the idiocy and ride out the storm. I just haven’t met the guy who says, “milmed is pretty good overall, and I usually like being an AF surgeon, and would advise others to join up.” I think that guy became extinct in about 1998.

 

[R-Me-Doc]

I think that guy became extinct in about 1998.

Yikes! Right when I came in!!!! 😱 No wonder my time was miserable!

I think Fizzy's "USUHS 2011" logo at the bottom of his page says it all . . .
No real experience as a practicing physician, either in or out of the military.

Lets ban him from the board until about 2020 and see what he's saying then . . . 😀

X-RMD

 

[Ex-44E3A]

I agree with your assertion that people are too quick to jump on students who have unrealistic ideas about the military. After all, it is the student doctor forums, and I think some people would make their point better if they were less caustic.

You know... fair point by Mitchconnie. For my own part, I'd certainly jump less if the students weren't so strident in telling me that everything is great and that I'm just a complainer. I've gotta be honest, this forum sometimes makes me feel like your cranky old granddad trying to save the current generation from themselves. We have the benefit of having been there, and having made the same !@#X$ mistakes, but nobody will listen to us, dangit! (*grumble* *mutter* where's my Geritol and Sinemet?)

*sigh*

As you can imagine, this gets quite frustrating. I hope you students realize that most of us ex-mil docs aren't just playing "Mr. Crankypants" to everyone for kicks. We're not unpatriotic "h4terzz" or bitter losers... we're much happier in our civilian jobs. Unlike the recruiters, we're not being paid to come on here and spread talking points. We'd really like to help studs navigate the minefields (or avoid them entirely). It pains many of us to see people making badly-informed decisions (that they may later regret), when they could save themselves a lot of pain and hassle by looking around and absorbing some of this.

I should treat this like I do my drug-addicts and alcoholics, and just blow it off when my attempts to help them or get them treatment are thrown back in my face. That used to bother me, but over time I learned not to expect much from most of my chemically-dependent patients... many are so low-functioning (and don't really want to change) that they'll frankly never get better. You still try, but you basically expect rejection, and you learn to ignore the cursing and spitting.

The average functional level of this board is so much higher than that, I just can't help but be puzzled at the stubborn insistence of some of you that mil-med is t3h shiznit.

 

[SeminoleFan3]

I don’t doubt for a second that this is true, since a lot of students post the same thing, but I can’t for the life of me figure out what’s going on. I’m wondering how you arranged your shadowing experiences. Was it via a recruiter, or perhaps via the hospital administration? I’m thinking that maybe you are being steered in the direction of departments or individuals who are uniquely positive about milmed. I know that our Department of Surgery used to see a lot of prospective HPSP students referred from the local healthcare recruiter. But then once the downsizing started and all the physicians became very unhappy, we never saw another student again. I’m thinking that you may be getting a biased sample.

My father's an 0-6 in the Navy, and he arranged it for me. And you'd better believe he was looking out for my best interests. I shadowed at Balboa and Portsmouth, both in the clinic, ER, and the OR. There's no way I'd ever set up my shadowing or any sort of information session through my recruiter.

 

[USAFdoc]

My father's an 0-6 in the Navy, and he arranged it for me. And you'd better believe he was looking out for my best interests. I shadowed at Balboa and Portsmouth, both in the clinic, ER, and the OR. There's no way I'd ever set up my shadowing or any sort of information session through my recruiter.

I think it is important that we realize the limitations of our experience. If you shadowed docs at those locales, and they said life is good, then I believe them and you. Hope that you land at one of those locales.

I have USAF Primary care experience and have investigated, made contacts throughout the UASAF, and the vast majority of docs note that the system in rock bottom in most places (overseas and Academy not as bad). I have yet to see a USAF FP come on this site and state otherwise.

Now whereas FPs are "slammed" with poor support staff, panel sizes out of control etc, surgeons seem to have the opposite end of the spectrum problems...ie....not enough cases to stay proficient.

All these problems have solutions, but as I have said before, I do not believe our milmed leadership has it in their "character" to implement those solutions. Milmed is "designed" to fail here stateside. I do think we do a good job overseas taking care of the troops.

At the bottom of this is $$$$$$$$$, and until funding improves, things will be bad. The fact that milmed ADMIN is also so poor, jsut makes things all the more broken.

 

[SeminoleFan3]

I concur with some of your post, USAFDoc. However, that's also why I chose USN, and not USAF. I've done my research and USAF guys seem to be terribly unhappy. While I had no desire to go Army, Navy seemed like a good fit for me. I also know that USAF is matching more into primary care than specialty, and I know I have no burning desire to practice primary care at this point. Also, Balboa, Portsmouth, and NNMC are the big residency training centers for the Navy, so there's a decent chance I'll end up at one of them when the time comes.

 

[FizbanZymogen]

I am out. I'm never going back. Neither has anyone else I've known. That pretty much says it all.

If military medicine is so great, how come top-notch civilian docs aren't pounding on the door to get in? The only docs I've encountered who gave up established civilian careers to join the active duty military were basically so incompetent or crazy that they simply couldn't practice in the civilian world anymore. Like the resume that crossed my desk one day listing the applicants ONE DOZEN settled or adverse lawsuit judgements. Agreed, that's probably an outlier, but it illustrates my point.

Well, at least you have a sense of humor . . .

X-RMD

If your going to put of with $h!t whether in the military or out most people feel the extra $100,000 a year helps deal with it. To those who said money has nothing to do with docs getting out. Your lying through your teath. By the way I do know a few docs (I know its not a ton) who have gone back to work in the military medical world as civilians after retiring. They get a much better paycheck but still want to work with their friends.

I also understand my original post here wasn't relevant to everyone's position becuase the ER is a different beast than say USAF FP. I agree that life is better in a private practice clinic than some of the crap I have read about on these boards. I just wanted to point out that not everyone is doing FP in the Air Force and their is more to this picture than usually gets painted on these boards.

 

[FizbanZymogen]

Yikes! Right when I came in!!!! 😱 No wonder my time was miserable!

I think Fizzy's "USUHS 2011" logo at the bottom of his page says it all . . .
No real experience as a practicing physician, either in or out of the military.

Lets ban him from the board until about 2020 and see what he's saying then . . . 😀

X-RMD

Wow, I was quite surprised by the civility most everyone used in responding to my post. Thanks everyone.

Then there's R-ME-DOC. Your the kind of immature smart @$$ I was refering to earlier who I just can't take seriously.

peace😎

 

[FizbanZymogen]

Just one more quick note (I know you are all getting tired of me).

This forum has negative tone in general becuase of its composition. No other forum on SDN focuses specifically on the practice of medicine in a certain organization or location.

I believe that if a seperate forum was started called "Washington HMOs" or "Nevada Medicine" you would see all the crap begin floating to the top associated with these medical settings. Would the complaints be different. Most of them would be as military Medicine has some unique challenges and issues. Would these new boards be negative in general too? You better believe you would have people starting posts about "......Lack of intergrity runs deep in X HMO." Part of the problem I see on these boards is simply due to their setup.

Ok, now I will leave you all alone.

 

[R-Me-Doc]

By the way I do know a few docs (I know its not a ton) who have gone back to work in the military medical world as civilians after retiring.

I think it's been a fairly recurrent theme in this forum that there is a world of difference in how active duty physicians and civilian contract physicians are treated within the MTFs, both in regard to salary and taskings. Yes, uniformed and civ. docs have to work in the same environment and likely share in the same day-to-day frustrations, but it's exclusively the uniforms that are held to account for them or expected to address them. Number of hospital committees I was assigned to at my last MTF: 12. Number of committees that ANY civilian physician at my MTF was assigned to: ZE-RO. And the civvies outnumbered the uniformed docs by about 4:1 probably.

Wow, I was quite surprised by the civility most everyone used in responding to my post. Thanks everyone.

Then there's R-ME-DOC. Your the kind of immature smart @$$ I was refering to earlier who I just can't take seriously.

peace

Smart @$$? Nah, compared to certain others on this site I'm pretty tame and actually quite intellectual . . . 😀

But obviously I was wrong about you having a sense of humor. If you honestly think my comment about banning you serious, you need some hard-core lightening up.

X-RMD

 

[R-Me-Doc]

By the way, I'm kind of wondering what Devilpup is thinking about all this . . .

Remember him/her? He/she's the one who started this thread . . . 😕


X-RMD

 

[LumberJack]

By the way, I'm kind of wondering what Devilpup is thinking about all this . . .

Remember him/her? He/she's the one who started this thread . . . 😕

X-RMD

He's probably decided to avoid the wrath of the big green weenie and go civilian all the way.

Me? I'm far too stupid to change my mind. I'm still here.

Lumberjack

 

[Mirror Form]

My father's an 0-6 in the Navy, and he arranged it for me. And you'd better believe he was looking out for my best interests. I shadowed at Balboa and Portsmouth, both in the clinic, ER, and the OR. There's no way I'd ever set up my shadowing or any sort of information session through my recruiter.

Would you expect any doctor to candidly tell you the way things really are when your father is an 0-6? Why would they want to risk you going to tell your dad, who will tell their O6, who will then know exactly where they stand in turning away potential recruits.

BTW, as I mentioned earlier, I'm no way near this candid when premeds ask me about milmed in person. Here I have some anonymity. The last thing I need is to get flack for stearing away potential recruits at a time when the army can't even give away HPSP scholarships.

EDIT: okay, i do remember one very candid doctor last year. he was a general surgeon who I heard a few times yelling "I hate the army" in the middle of the clinic so that all the patients could hear him. He was retiring though so it didn't really matter to him.

 

[Mirror Form]

He's probably decided to avoid the wrath of the big green weenie and go civilian all the way.

Me? I'm far too stupid to change my mind. I'm still here.

Lumberjack

But are you doing med school though? I thought you were doing some psychology route? Or was that a different guy?

 

[Mirror Form]

I concur with some of your post, USAFDoc. However, that's also why I chose USN, and not USAF. I've done my research and USAF guys seem to be terribly unhappy. While I had no desire to go Army, Navy seemed like a good fit for me. I also know that USAF is matching more into primary care than specialty, and I know I have no burning desire to practice primary care at this point. Also, Balboa, Portsmouth, and NNMC are the big residency training centers for the Navy, so there's a decent chance I'll end up at one of them when the time comes.

You may be the exception, but it's AMAZING to me how many of the HPSP and USUHS students had no idea what the gmo tour system was like in the Navy before joining (perhaps leading to some of the bitterness). Are you positive that you want to do a GMO tour? It sounds like you might want to go into a field other than FP or IM, in which case a gmo tour is practically mandatory in the navy. And if you do HPSP then the gmo tour probably won't even effectively count toward your obligation.

So, if you're cool with doing a GMO tour and probably not having it count toward your military obligation, then by all means, go navy.

 

[Mirror Form]

Just one more quick note (I know you are all getting tired of me).

This forum has negative tone in general becuase of its composition. No other forum on SDN focuses specifically on the practice of medicine in a certain organization or location.

I believe that if a seperate forum was started called "Washington HMOs" or "Nevada Medicine" you would see all the crap begin floating to the top associated with these medical settings. Would the complaints be different. Most of them would be as military Medicine has some unique challenges and issues. Would these new boards be negative in general too? You better believe you would have people starting posts about "......Lack of intergrity runs deep in X HMO." Part of the problem I see on these boards is simply due to their setup.

Ok, now I will leave you all alone.

Yep, I actually made up several similar rationalizations for the general attitude on this board when I was a med student (search my previous posts if you don't believe me). Now that I'm in the real world of the army though, I've finally had to agree with the general attitude here.