Questions for veterinarians/pre-vet students

[ramune]

I apologize if I repeat any threads from here, but the information seems scattered and I need up-to-date information.

I am currently a junior in high school. I've pretty much spent the last couple of years not knowing what I want to do, but it wasn't until recently that I became interested in becoming a veterinarian. I did my research and determined two possible fields.

They are wildlife/zoo or shelter medicine.

HIT ME WITH THE HARD HARD TRUTH.
I went on the bls website and veterinary field outlook looks great! So great I'm suspicious. So come on, tell me the truth. Is it really that great? Is the pay enough to live and pay off vet school debts?

For that matter, is vet school really that expensive and hard to pay for?

What are some good scholarships?

Does wildlife occupation look good? Shelter medicine enough to live?

Actually, how is the pay for these specific fields in reality?

Here are a few facts:
- I live in Kansas.
- I am pretty good academically. Good grades, high GPA. About above a 3.8. But I haven't taken many science classes. I've taken biology, chemistry, should I take physics?
- Like most people, I am not good financially.

I know Kansas has a vet school at K-state. Does anyone know if it's a good program? I can't find much info on it. But I'm actually interested in Suny ESF for my undergraduate, or Colorado State for both undergrad and grad. Can anyone give me information on that?

What are other good schools, or should I stick to going to K-State?

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[WhtsThFrequency]

You might have more luck posting this in the pre-vet section. Maybe a mod could move it for you?

The outlook for the veterinary field is NOT great right now....not sure where you're getting your info.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/b...ap-new-veterinarians.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

The story of the Ross grad isn't quite representative of the average student (Ross is more expensive that most), but the article does nicely highlight the current problems with the industry if you keep reading.

Even the AVMA is finally starting to acknowledge that there is a problem after years of claiming there is some sort of shortage of vets and demand for more vets (athough they sugarcoat it as "underutilization" rather than unemployment as you can see).

https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/x130601.aspx

Zoo/wildlife medicine is incredibly competitive. Incredibly. Most people I know who started off wanting to do zoo or wildlife end up doing companion animal instead because the positions are so few and far between. Zoo also doesn't pay very much. Neither does shelter med. In addition, zoo med will generally require an internship and a residency as well which prolong the interest buildup of your debt and pay pittance in the meantime. You could get away with maybe being a GP who sees exotics, but full on zoo/wildlife places generally want additional training. Vets are not required to do residencies for general practice, but you usually do for any specialty - I'm currently a veterinary pathology resident.

To be honest (I feel like I'm bursting your bubble, but it has to be said) veterinary medicine in general is not a high paying field - starting salaries are around 50-60k with an average debt load of 140k or therabouts. Yes, 50-60k. After a long time you may be able to make 100k, especially if you are lucky enough to become owner or partner at a clinic. The debt to salary ratio is atrocious and people struggle to pay back their loans for a long time. Vet schools also continue to expand and pump out more students while the market becomes more and more oversaturated.

If after all that, you're still interested, I highly suggest shadowing. That's really the best way to figure out if you would enjoy it.

I have about 150k of debt myself (started off with maybe 130k, have been in residency for 3 years now and obviously can't make many payments on my paltry resident salary, so the interest builds). I went to my in-state school and worked part time jobs throughout vet school. But it's still expensive as heck. I'm currently making 30k as a resident, and will hopefully make more like 80k when I'm done.

Ok, now that I've rained on the parade - there IS good stuff. Do I love my work? Absolutely. No question. I am glad I chose this career path for the immense interspecies variation that I see. Constant mental stimulation, constantly seeing new things (although that may just be vet pathology; the average GP vet doesn't see as much weirdness as we do). But it is definitely financially difficult and sometimes disheartening. Especially when people moan and groan about how vets are "greedy" and that we "charge so much" for x, y, and z. I don't think they know how little we make relative to our debt and schooling.

 

[VCheetah]

First off K-State is THE VERY BEST VET SCHOOL IMO anyways. I have worked in a veterinary clinic since last year. I am a senior in high school and have logged probably over 1000+ paid hours Veterinarians dont make as much $$ as most would imagine. I have learned so much working at the clinic and that's one thing I have come to find out, its also where I learned my passion was not to save animal lives, but human lives.

If you really love it and are passionate then no debt, schooling, or job opportunity should be in question when pursuing your career.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

First off K-State is THE VERY BEST VET SCHOOL IMO anyways. I have worked in a veterinary clinic since last year. I am a senior in high school and have logged probably over 1000+ paid hours Veterinarians dont make as much $$ as most would imagine. I have learned so much working at the clinic and that's one thing I have come to find out, its also where I learned my passion was not to save animal lives, but human lives.

If you really love it and are passionate then no debt, schooling, or job opportunity should be in question when pursuing your career.

As someone who is now dealing with the consequences of this particular attitude, I have to disagree.

Debt is very, very real. It is not, I repeat, NOT something that you should put in the back of your mind or think "Well, I'll pay it off eventually!" or "I'll figure it out when I get there!" just because you are in love with a particular field.

Debt and schooling SHOULD be important questions and, in some cases, stop signs in any career path. As much as you may be passionate about a subject, pursuing it may not be in your best financial (or emotional) interest. You may be in love with, say Medieval literature, but getting an expensive degree in said field is setting yourself up for a very rough time, and should be reconsidered unless you have a lot of excess money sitting around to carry yourself through.

Now yes, vet med is better off than than Medieval literature. But it is still a very, very expensive career path that doesn't pay well; simply being "passionate" about it isn't enough. All this talk of "Nothing should hold you back if you love the subject enough!" is short-sighted. People need to be realistic.

 

[nysegop]

According to labor statistics the growth rate over the next ten years will be 36%. That's actually higher than for physicians and considered "much faster than average".

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/veterinarians.htm

 

[that redhead]

The veterinary field is in the toilet right now. Cost of tuition continues to rise, the AVMA continues to accredit new schools and schools continue to increase their class sizes. Which means that there are more vets being put out with more debt without any decent pay grade to compensate. Nevermind the fact that the AVMA seems to skip along happily ignoring or directly contradicting the information out there.

As for your personal plans: zoo med is ridiculously competitive - if you seriously intend on pursuing it I would go out tomorrow and find a job or volunteer experience to get your foot in the door now so that when it comes time to get into rotations (and eventually a job) you'll have half a chance.

Shelter med is tricky. Not all shelters have full time vets and plenty of them are on a volunteer basis. Compassion fatigue is a big problem in that particular field. Wildlife is also usually volunteer basis, frequently with small local rehabbers (and many of them will opt to euthanize instead of go through a crapload of medical care, since the ultimate goal is to release).

The current advice on applying to vet school is essentially: don't, unless it's really the only thing you can see yourself doing. If medicine interests you, go into human med. If animals interest you, go into an animal field like tech, behaviorist, trainer, research, etc.

Your GPA at this point really doesn't matter - only your undergrad grades will. Go wherever you want for UG. And all programs are pretty similar across schools, so KSU is no better than another necessarily (unless other factors like location/weather, etc are really important to you).

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

According to labor statistics the growth rate over the next ten years will be 36%. That's actually higher than for physicians and considered "much faster than average".

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/veterinarians.htm

Laughable. I have no idea where they are getting the numbers that predict this "growth", but I can tell you firsthand that the job market is the pits right now and it is not looking to get better anytime soon. I work with fourth years every day who are desperately trying to find work. With the AVMA also saying that we have an 11-14% underutilization of services right now, I highly doubt we are looking at "growth" unless you mean schools pumping out more vets to make $$ via tuition. Throwing more graduates at a saturated market will not do anything positive for this supposed (most likely bull****) growth.

Almost 50% of graduates go on to internships, etc now. Up from 33% a few years ago. I have no doubt that part of that is due to the difficulty of finding employment directly out of school.

A lot of these "projected needs" things aren't entirely accurate because while there may be a "need" for a vet in a certain area, there is not enough financial support to sustain a vet there.

Jobs opportunities should be "particularly good for farm animal care"? I just about died laughing. Food animal medicine is in a lot of trouble right now. There is a need for more food animal vets in rural areas, but none of these communities can produce enough income to give a vet any sort of livable wage (especially with our outrageous loan repayments). Yes, there are government assistance programs, but those are few and far between.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

As an aside, the BLS also says that lawyers have a 10% (or average) growth rate and that pharmacists will have a 25% (faster than average) growth rate.

I think most people in law or pharmacy school (or trying to keep their heads above water in their respective job markets as recent graduates) would disagree that their field is primed for growth.

I would really love to see what goes into these "projected growth rates." They (AVMA and the like) have been projecting the growth of veterinary medicine all through my four years of undergrad, four of vet school and through all three of residency, and all I have seen it do is get oversaturated. I'd like to know where all these mysterious jobs they think will appear will actually come from.

 

[ramune]

Lots of information! It definitely makes me think more.

It is not just the bls website actually. A lot of other career websites report that the outlook for the veterinary field looks good. Meh, what a reality check. Does make me wonder how they are getting their information?

I admit, I am a bit sad about it. Is it worth it? Maybe, but I will definitely try shadowing. I am also shocked that zoo med is so competitive! I probably shouldn't be, but I wasn't expecting that all.

Debt is also another thing. I definitely agree that it should't be ignored or put away with thoughts like, "I'll pay it back eventually." Passion is important, but passion won't pay off the debts. I also read the NY article, and it seems that every veterinarian school's tuition is increasing a lot. With my family's financial situation at the moment, I truly do not want to add to their worries.

I have a lot to think about and some introspection needed. Thank you all for your replies! They were very informative. ^^

 

[nysegop]

Don't get turned away by what the other people are posting. Pursue your goals.

 

[twelvetigers]

Hey, no one is telling them to not do what they want. They said they wanted the cold hard truth - well, here it is. The field is suffering a bit. It's not the best time to go into vet med.

If you do decide to pursue it, I would make minimizing debt your goal and then I would take it very, very seriously. If you can do that, you will make life a lot easier for yourself in the long run.

If I could go back in time, I'm not sure I would choose to pursue vet med again. But no one could have talked me out of it at seventeen either, so I understand. Just try to be smart about it, and don't let people convince you that it's all rosy and perfect. It's not.

Maybe it will change a bit over the next few years, for better or worse, so keep an eye out and maybe have a plan B if you can?

Good luck. I'm sorry that we are the bearers are bad news - it's not fair to have your dream job end up being in bad shape by the time you are finally able to actively pursue it.

 

[ramune]

Unfortunately, the bright prospects that other websites claim to have for the field can't really compare to what real veterinarian students are going through.

I am happy that I got the truth about it. If I choose to pursue this, I'd rather go in knowing what I am getting myself into than not. I am disappointed that the career outlook isn't really good right now. But I'm not going to let that get me down. : ) Hopefully, I can figure out what I want to do before I end my senior year.

 

[twelvetigers]

The requirements for vet school (as far as courses are concerned) line up well with pre-med, pre-dent, pre-pharm requirements or just a general science degree of some sort, so you do have some time to consider things, even after you have graduated from high school. Assuming you at least know you are interested in some sort of science.

 

[that redhead]

You definitely don't need to have it figured out by your senior year. Being on sdn makes it seem like everyone knows what they want to do, but sdn is only a small part of the population as a whole. There are students who don't decide to pursue vet med until their junior year of undergrad. It's beneficial to know your path before that point but it isn't necessary to your success.

Get good grades, be active in your community/school and pursue shadowing opportunities in a couple of fields. That's the best foundation for anything you end up wanting to do.

 

[kernel]

According to labor statistics the growth rate over the next ten years will be 36%. That's actually higher than for physicians and considered "much faster than average".

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/veterinarians.htm

You'll see a lot of numbers on the internet, but the truth is that the veterinary medical profession is facing, and will continue to face some hard times.

Laughable. I have no idea where they are getting the numbers that predict this "growth", but I can tell you firsthand that the job market is the pits right now and it is not looking to get better anytime soon. I work with fourth years every day who are desperately trying to find work. With the AVMA also saying that we have an 11-14% underutilization of services right now, I highly doubt we are looking at "growth" unless you mean schools pumping out more vets to make $$ via tuition. Throwing more graduates at a saturated market will not do anything positive for this supposed (most likely bull****) growth.

Almost 50% of graduates go on to internships, etc now. Up from 33% a few years ago. I have no doubt that part of that is due to the difficulty of finding employment directly out of school.

A lot of these "projected needs" things aren't entirely accurate because while there may be a "need" for a vet in a certain area, there is not enough financial support to sustain a vet there.

Jobs opportunities should be "particularly good for farm animal care"? I just about died laughing. Food animal medicine is in a lot of trouble right now. There is a need for more food animal vets in rural areas, but none of these communities can produce enough income to give a vet any sort of livable wage (especially with our outrageous loan repayments). Yes, there are government assistance programs, but those are few and far between.

Grim, but true.



FYI HSDN friends: there are several threads over in the pre-vet forum that focus specifically on the currently/projected veterinarian job market and (insanely depressing) state of veterinary student loan debt. They're sobering reads, but good sources of info if you're considering this career path...