Questions from a Confused Applicant...

[JaDud6PG]

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Hey all,
After reading through this section of SDN, I see that there are many helpful folks around who are eager to lend a hand. I was wondering if you guys would be willing to help me out.

I’ll get straight to the point.

Graduated in December 07 from a state school. Worked 2 jobs during school. Parents weren’t too helpful, and I even had to help out with their bills from time to time.

GPA – science and cumulative – 3.48 (rounded to 3.5?)
-Note about GPA: went into a dive when I found out I had to work another job to pay for school and rent; then went back up to 4.0 in my last semester when I had everything settled down

MCAT – 11bs, 11ps, 10vr

I have some shadowing experience (one summer). I’m volunteering at a hospital on weekends now. I’m working full time in a research company .. working on treatments for diseases.

But none of that seems to matter. The last time I applied, I didn’t send in my stuff until November. As such, I only got one interview, and it was for a waitlist spot (worst $500 I ever spent).

This cycle, I applied on time (all secondaries were sent in by August). So far, my earliest interview was in January. That school has been placing me on hold ever since. And I have no interviews coming up. So it looks like this cycle is about to end.

I have spoken to my advisor about this, and his advice was simple: take undergraduate level courses, and improve my GPA. The problem I see with this plan is that even with 30 credits of 4.0, I wouldn’t be able to raise my GPA to a truly competitive level (i.e. 3.7). At the cost of $1000 per 3-4 credits, this may not even be a viable option.

Now, I hear about “taking more undergrad courses to raise GPA” all the time. But how are these kinds of credits calculated when applying? If they’re combined with my uGPA the way I described above, then they really are worthless, no?

And a few more questions…

Where do I go from here? I took my MCAT in the summer of 07, so I’m assuming that the last time I can use them is during the application cycle in the summer of 2010 (applying for entry in fall 2011). Is this correct?
If I were to take undergraduate courses, I could take three max (night classes so they don’t interfere with work). But that’s only if these courses actually matter.

Other options I’ve thought of include military service. I know the Marines have an MOS in medical support. If I were to do that for 4 years of active duty, and then retake and get the same MCAT score again (32 balanced), how much weight would that carry when I reapply at that time?

If the military isn’t a good idea, what others would you suggest?

I already had one friend suggest that I should quit my job, then shadow nearly full time for 2 days a week and volunteer full time for 3-4 days a week while studying to retake the MCAT and take undergrad courses at night. I told him that this wouldn’t be possible unless the banks were willing to lend me enough money to pay for living expenses.

Thanks to anyone who read this post. And I really appreciate any advice you can give me.

 

[Mobius1985]

Your MCAT score just barely compensates for the low GPA, but enough to get you some consideration for the least-selective med schools. Hopefully you applied to appropriate schools for your stats. You don't specify your clinical experience, but about 150 hours gained over 1.5 years seems to be average, with shadowing in addition to that. If you don't have enough, that alone might kill your application. I'll assume that someone besides you thinks your LORs were great and that your Personal Statement was sublime.

Taking additional undergrad classes in an unofficial post bac is a good idea, because those courses will be listed in aggregate below your earlier college grades (so a high GPA will be very apparent) before being figured into a cummulative GPA total. I agree that if you don't go to school full-time you probably won't budge your GPA much, but gtting it up to 3.55 would be nice.

Retaking the MCAT and getting three more points would be a much faster route to redemption. If you choose this, I'd take a formal prep course and study for 4-5 months, considering it your "job." I wouldn't quit the day job you have, but I'd cut back the hours if possible.

Regardless of the path you take, continue with a weekly community service/clinical experience gig, but 3-4 hours a week is fine. And if you do more shadowing, bigger chunks of time are fine over breaks or weekends. It can be done irregularly. For the volunteer clinical experience, it's better if you show dedication and steady committment over a long period of time.

Military experience might get you some good clinical and leadership experience, but otherwise won't get you extra consideration for an acceptance (though it should). And I know from family experience that just because they promise you training in medical support, doesn't mean it will happen, as the overall needs of the military take precedence over your personal wishes.

Last piece of advice: If you really want to be a doctor as soon as possible, apply to osteopathic medical schools, too. With your stats, you'd be a shoo-in.

 

[Mobius1985]

I took my MCAT in the summer of 07, so I'm assuming that the last time I can use them is during the application cycle in the summer of 2010 (applying for entry in fall 2011). Is this correct?

MCAT expiration varies by school and takes careful reading of the website, or checking an MSAR to know for sure. I've seen some expire in two years, but most are three. Some are good as long as you apply before the calendar date you took the MCAT and others are not good if you hit the anniversary date during the application cycle. So don't make any assumptions unless you see it in black and white.

 

[JaDud6PG]

Hey Mobius

Thanks for the advice. I can definitely see how improving the MCAT would help, and that may ultimately be one of my options.

I had no idea that the military would be like how you described. I've been told all kinds of good things about how former Marines have been able to successfully get into med school with lower stats than the norm. But maybe you're right ... it's just not as much of a boost as it seems.

I didn't even think about DO schools, but now that you mention it, I will definitely have to take a look. I just hope my school's health advising office does DO applications.

Thanks again.

 

[Myuu]

Hey Mobius

Thanks for the advice. I can definitely see how improving the MCAT would help, and that may ultimately be one of my options.

I had no idea that the military would be like how you described. I've been told all kinds of good things about how former Marines have been able to successfully get into med school with lower stats than the norm. But maybe you're right ... it's just not as much of a boost as it seems.

I didn't even think about DO schools, but now that you mention it, I will definitely have to take a look. I just hope my school's health advising office does DO applications.

Thanks again.

Also, don't apply "on time." If you want the best results, apply early! And by early, I mean as soon as humanly possible!👍

 

[Mobius1985]

I had no idea that the military would be like how you described. I've been told all kinds of good things about how former Marines have been able to successfully get into med school with lower stats than the norm. But maybe you're right ... it's just not as much of a boost as it seems.

Observations vary, of course. And lower stats can be trumped by awesome clinical and leadership experience, even if not gained through military service. Where I see the advantage for those with an active military background is a greater tolerance of a hodge-podge undergrad education from on-line courses, community college for prereqs, and multiple institutions as is necessary to gain a degree around the obligation of moving around a lot for deployments. Of course, GI bill benefits are nice too in helping with tuition. But keep in mind that signing up for four years of active military service means you are inactive and liable for recall for four more years (which is something the last president took advantage of frequently when there was a manpower shortage).

 

[tiamat360]

Does your application anywhere demonstrate the financial difficulties you've had? If not, you should make that part of your PS (or check the "disadvantaged" box) if you need to apply a third time.

Also, I don't know what schools you applied to, but that can make a big difference. If you applied to a small number of schools, or primarily to top schools, that could hurt you a lot. If you end up applying next cycle, get an MSAR and apply primarily to schools that accept many students in your GPA/MCAT range.

Finally, don't give up on this cycle yet! Make sure the school you've interviewed at knows you're very interested in going there, and keep them updated with any major changes to your application.

Good luck!

 

[flip26]

Clear something up for us:

You say you are volunteering at a hospital on the weekends "now." How much total clinical volunteering, and over how long a timeframe, had you done prior to submitting the AMCAS? Successful applicants tend to have done one to two years of steady clinical volunteering at the rate of say 2 to 4 hours per week, if not more, with the key being that it was done prior to applying, not after.

The purpose of clinical experiences is to "inform the applicant" so that you can convey in the PS how you know from personal experiences what you are getting yourself into...and why.

Shadowing counts, but is not a substitute for clinical volunteering.

 

[JaDud6PG]

Clear something up for us:

You say you are volunteering at a hospital on the weekends "now." How much total clinical volunteering, and over how long a timeframe, had you done prior to submitting the AMCAS? Successful applicants tend to have done one to two years of steady clinical volunteering at the rate of say 2 to 4 hours per week, if not more, with the key being that it was done prior to applying, not after.

The purpose of clinical experiences is to "inform the applicant" so that you can convey in the PS how you know from personal experiences what you are getting yourself into...and why.

Shadowing counts, but is not a substitute for clinical volunteering.

First off, I thought that shadowing trumps clinical volunteering in terms of importance.

I did my app back in June 08. I started volunteering 2-3 hours each weekend since March 08. Maybe that just wasn't enough time, I guess.

 

[JaDud6PG]

Does your application anywhere demonstrate the financial difficulties you've had? If not, you should make that part of your PS (or check the "disadvantaged" box) if you need to apply a third time.

Also, I don't know what schools you applied to, but that can make a big difference. If you applied to a small number of schools, or primarily to top schools, that could hurt you a lot. If you end up applying next cycle, get an MSAR and apply primarily to schools that accept many students in your GPA/MCAT range.

Finally, don't give up on this cycle yet! Make sure the school you've interviewed at knows you're very interested in going there, and keep them updated with any major changes to your application.

Good luck!

I am not an URM, nor would I classify myself as disadvantaged. I mean, I didn't grow up in the best neighborhood in the country. And not being able to see my dad for extended periods of time didn't help my childhood. But my mom made sure that I would stay on the right track, and I did my part by staying out of trouble.

A friend of mine who is in med school now did tell me to write about my background, but I'm just not comfortable talking about it.

I applied to mostly schools in my GPA/MCAT range, but I didn't even think about the DO schools as Mobius had mentioned. I didn't apply to any top schools. I think the best school I aimed for was eastern virginia.

What do you mean by "keeping them updated?" Do you mean I should send them a letter stating that I would be very interested in their school?

Thanks for your help.

 

[flip26]

First off, I thought that shadowing trumps clinical volunteering in terms of importance.

I did my app back in June 08. I started volunteering 2-3 hours each weekend since March 08. Maybe that just wasn't enough time, I guess.

No, it is the other way around...shadowing is nice to have, clinical volunteering is a must.

So when you applied for the current cycle, you had accumulated at most 12 hours for 3 months (march, april, may) for a total of 36 hours of clinical volunteering...whatever they thought of your GPA, etc., this frankly killed your app...you are way below the average applicant with this.

As for your shadowing, it sounds like you did some in the summer of 2007? If so, that was too late for your first app and with no volunteering - the combo killed your first cycle app. If the shadowing was in summer 2008, it was too late for your 2nd/current cycle app. And if you haven't done any shadowing since then - if you have been volunteering continuously since March 2008, that is good - but if not, you will again be short of the averages most applicants have, but more importantly, you have a pattern of someone who is only doing these things because they think it is what med schools want to see, not the commitment of the applicant who appears to be genuinely interested in medicine and also has a solid record of altruism...

Finally, if you do apply DO, you need to get completely up to speed on what they require. For instance, I think that DO schools want letters of recommendation from DOs you shadow...it is a different ball game over there.

 

[dragonfly99]

It sounds like this poster needs to improve on the number and quality of volunteer hours...the low number and late start probably explains the lack of interviews. The volunteer experience helps you show the adcom that you have a clue about how a hospital runs, and what you'll experience as a med student and resident. It also gives you things to talk about during your med school interviews, and might give you ideas about what type of doctor you'd like to be.

Try reapplying again this summer, with the beefed up volunteer hours. Also, I recommend taking maybe one upper level science class/semester (and in the summer) and make sure you get A's. Alternately you could retake the MCAT, or could retake this summer, but if you do make sure you get a higher score. Your original score isn't bad and I don't see it being the reason you didn't get interviews.

I'd be curious what grades the original poster got in organic chem and in upper level biology courses.

I don't think it's inappropriate to mention having worked multiple jobs during undergrad...as long as you don't come across like you are whining about it. I think it is relevant. Make sure you put the jobs and number of hours worked/week on your med school application.

I don't think the military enlistment will help with getting into med school, though I certainly have respect for those who serve in the armed forces.

 

[dragonfly99]

Since you were unsuccessful x one at getting in to medical school, you need to apply to a lot of schools next time...30 or 40 would be good. And stay away from the ones with the really high GPA and MCAT averages, unless you just want to pick 1 or 2 "dream schools".

 

[JaDud6PG]

I'd be curious what grades the original poster got in organic chem and in upper level biology courses.

I got A's in both O Chem's and out of the 7 or so upper level Bio classes, I got all A's and one C.

Taking more classes simply doesn't seem like a viable option given my situation at the moment.

I think you and another poster are right about the volunteer hours. I actually had no idea that the volunteering is as valuable as you guys are saying it is. But even with a year's worth of volunteering, I don't think I'm ready to apply to MD. If I do decide to apply this June, it'll likely be for DO schools.

Anyway, thanks to everyone who took the time to respond to this thread. And I hope that someone in the same boat as me has learned something from those who have helped me out here.

 

[Catalystik]

What do you mean by "keeping them updated?" Do you mean I should send them a letter stating that I would be very interested in their school?

An update letter tells about what you've done that improves your candidacy for med school since you applied. Since clinical experience is a weak point for you, tell them how many hours you've done, where, what you do, and over what time frame. Add new shadowing, leadership, GPA as indicated, any new research project, but only if it adds to your application. At the end of the letter mention why their school is a good fit for you, and that you'd appreciate an interview invitation. Don't exceed one page in length.

 

[tiamat360]

I am not an URM, nor would I classify myself as disadvantaged. I mean, I didn't grow up in the best neighborhood in the country. And not being able to see my dad for extended periods of time didn't help my childhood. But my mom made sure that I would stay on the right track, and I did my part by staying out of trouble.

A friend of mine who is in med school now did tell me to write about my background, but I'm just not comfortable talking about it.

You don't have to talk about it if you don't want to. But a story like yours puts your GPA/MCAT (which are decent but not great) into perspective - your numbers are very good considering that you had to work 2 jobs during college and help your parents financially. Again, it's your choice whether you want to mention your background, but I think med schools would be much more impressed with you if they knew your story.

AFAIK, URM is not the same as disadvantaged. URM is purely racial, while disadvantaged implies economic difficulty.

What do you mean by "keeping them updated?" Do you mean I should send them a letter stating that I would be very interested in their school?

Yes - explain why the school would be a good match for you, and include the activities you've been doing since your application became complete. I don't think sending such a letter will be helpful to schools you haven't interviewed at, but if a school liked your application enough to interview you, showing interest in them via a letter will probably help.

 

[John Banner]

I think there are three approaches that will dramatically help your situation.
1) You have to advocate for yourself in your application. If you are supporting yourself while going to school, it will negatively impact your GPA and the time you have for volunteering. If you don't find a way to include this in your AMCAS file, you give the committee the opportunity to make their own interpretations.
2) Extend and diversify your clinical experiences and community outreach. More and more schools are paying attention to this.
3) Diversify your applications. Pick a mix of schools that are aspirational with those that have lower GPA and MCAT averages.