Questions: of the four 4 year programs .....

[schroon]

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A few quick questions:

1. Are any of the four 4 year Irish med programs ** considered to be better (or worse) than the others for return to the US? Is any considered to be more prestigious or less prestigious?

2. Of the four year Irish programs which is considered to be the most difficult to be admitted to as a North American student? The easiest to be admitted?

3. Since the Irish schools use a common application for the North American med applicants is it possible for a North American to be accepted to more than one Irish med school?

4. Which of the four year programs is in the best/ most interesting area of Ireland?

Thanks.
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** Note the four 4 year year Irish MD programs being: (i) University College Cork, (ii) University College Dublin, (iii) The University of Limerick, and (iv)The Royal College of Surgeons.

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[Handsome88]

A few quick questions:

1. Are any of the four 4 year Irish med programs ** considered to be better (or worse) than the others for return to the US? Is any considered to be more prestigious or less prestigious?

2. Of the four year Irish programs which is considered to be the most difficult to be admitted to as a North American student? The easiest to be admitted?

3. Since the Irish schools use a common application for the North American med applicants is it possible for a North American to be accepted to more than one Irish med school?

4. Which of the four year programs is in the best/ most interesting area of Ireland?

Thanks.
__________________

** Note the four 4 year year Irish MD programs being: (i) University College Cork, (ii) University College Dublin, (iii) The University of Limerick, and (iv)The Royal College of Surgeons.

__________________

A lot of these questions have been asked and answered already. Do your research first.

1) Not really. But looking at ratings (which don't really mean much, its the student that makes the difference) of universities, Trinity ranks the highest. But it is a 5yr program.
2) Hard to tell what is more difficult. But I heard RCSI is pretty tough to get into...you have to go through interview stage.
3) Yes, you can.
4) This depends on what you think is more interesting. Do you like urban, highly populated areas with many tourism places to see? Then Dublin would be nice (Trinity/RCSI). Do you like a quieter more rural (perhaps boring) environment then go to UCC.

 

[IamSuperDoctor]

If your looking for the largest canadian population of students, the choice is RCSI. They have about 200 canadian students, while the other schools have much less.

 

[monkeyonthenet]

If your looking for the largest canadian population of students, the choice is RCSI. They have about 200 canadian students, while the other schools have much less.

Now that you mention, I was wondering if the number is higher in RCSI because Canadians prefer that school or is it because others schools do not select as many ?

 

[IamSuperDoctor]

I am not sure what the reasons are, but I can tell you that RCSI holds interviews and send out their invitation offers earlier than most of the other schools. Here are the statistics

Number Of Canadian Students Studying in Ireland:

Ireland Trinity College Dublin ~ 70
Ireland University College Dublin ~ 90
Ireland Royal College of Surgeons Ireland (RCSI) ~ 200
Ireland University College Cork ~ 70
Ireland University of Limerick ~ 50
Ireland National University of Ireland, Galway ~ 20​

Ireland Additional Admissions in Sept 2010 ~ 150

ref:

http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2010_CSA_Report/CaRMS_2010_CSA_Report.pdf

 

[Handsome88]

Now that you mention, I was wondering if the number is higher in RCSI because Canadians prefer that school or is it because others schools do not select as many ?

It just has more seats for internationals.

 

[Arb]

I would recommend going to RCSI. They still use the old school 1st/2nd class grading scale so programs don't know how to deal with that. Plus they are by far the most well known school in the US and Canada with a large alumni network. In the end, the bulk of your success is up to you but the school you go to DOES help a little and for some, that little extra is significant. The second best known school is UCD easily followed by probably Cork.

 

[Handsome88]

I would recommend going to RCSI. They still use the old school 1st/2nd class grading scale so programs don't know how to deal with that. Plus they are by far the most well known school in the US and Canada with a large alumni network. In the end, the bulk of your success is up to you but the school you go to DOES help a little and for some, that little extra is significant. The second best known school is UCD easily followed by probably Cork.

I thought Trinity also uses 1st/2nd class? It doesn't really matter which school you go to. All schools will give you a good education. But UCC has a very small class, and I doubt anyone has ever heard of it in Canada. Same with UCD, it is not internationally well-known (doesn't mean it is better or worse). Just reputation-wise RCSI and TCD are very well-known internationally...And I'm speaking about the university as a whole not the medical college alone.

But since you are looking for a 4yr program then as Arb said, RCSI = UCD > UCC.

 

[IamSuperDoctor]

I would recommend going to RCSI. They still use the old school 1st/2nd class grading scale so programs don't know how to deal with that.

What is the 1st/2nd class grading scale?

 

[Der Kaiser]

I thought Trinity also uses 1st/2nd class? It doesn't really matter which school you go to. All schools will give you a good education. But UCC has a very small class, and I doubt anyone has ever heard of it in Canada. Same with UCD, it is not internationally well-known (doesn't mean it is better or worse). Just reputation-wise RCSI and TCD are very well-known internationally...And I'm speaking about the university as a whole not the medical college alone.

But since you are looking for a 4yr program then as Arb said, RCSI = UCD > UCC.

People at Mac should know about UCC, since a former Mac faculty member left to work for UCC. He is a leading expert in geriatric medicine. I think you might be surprised about the rep of the Irish schools. There are many, many Irish trained docs in Canada.

 

[Arb]

1st/2nd class grading is like the GPA system except there are essentially 2 grades.

Actually, the reputations of the schools are the same for the 5 years or 6 years programs. RCSI, UCD, UCC, Trinity are the most well known schools and in that order. It correlates with the number of grads who match in North America. Once you go through your interview tour, you'll notice this trust me (I've had many interviews). Whenever you mention you go to an Irish school, you'll usually get asked if you go to Surgeons or UCD. Some program directors and interviewers thought these two schools were the only schools in Ireland unless they have a resident from the other two. Take from that what you will.

 

[Handsome88]

1st/2nd class grading is like the GPA system except there are essentially 2 grades.

Actually, the reputations of the schools are the same for the 5 years or 6 years programs. RCSI, UCD, UCC, Trinity are the most well known schools and in that order. It correlates with the number of grads who match in North America. Once you go through your interview tour, you'll notice this trust me (I've had many interviews). Whenever you mention you go to an Irish school, you'll usually get asked if you go to Surgeons or UCD. Some program directors and interviewers thought these two schools were the only schools in Ireland unless they have a resident from the other two. Take from that what you will.

You are forgetting that UCD and Trinity have overall more graduates (not just from the medical collage) than RCSI and UCC. When I went for bank loans, all the banks knew about TCD and UCD (one person knew about RCSI because her daughter studied there!). Also, I traveled around in the Middle East, and UK and almost everyone from the general public I've talked to have heard about TCD and RCSI (no one I talked to have heard of UCD and definitely not UCC). I assume that fellow residents will know more about RCSI/UCD only because there are more MEDICAL graduates from these schools, this does not reflect the overall reputation of the school or its popularity.

So if you want to choose a school based on the university's popularity, the number of people that know about the school's name (for example when you're talking to your future patients, friends, family, general public...etc), then I'd say:

1) TCD (oldest, with high number of graduates, and highest rank in the world out of the 4, and in the centre of Dublin, being one of the major tourist attractions, has connection with 2 US schools)
2) UCD (also high number of graduates, now biggest campus) = RCSI (good reputation, more than one campus, many connections with schools in the US)
3) UCC (in a more rural, obscure place, with less graduates, and lower ranking).

I am not being biased here, but I think you, Arb, are being very biased...Did you graduate from RCSI by any chance?

 

[Arb]

LOL, no I don't go to RCSI

General public perception means absolutely nothing (and ALL Irish universities are NOT well known at all in North America). What you should care about are the program directors and staff of the residency programs you will be applying to so when I talk about reputation, I refer to the medical community. I will have been on 17 interviews at some big name places in the US and all the worthwhile institutions in Canada. Others will tell you the same thing when they are done their interview tour. Name recognition by MEDICAL staff absolutely means something. Programs will be more willing to interview and definitely will rank you higher if they have experience with a graduate from your school. No one cares about how old your school is or in what city it's located in Ireland. Trinity is a great school but it was by far the least well known of the Irish schools and I have interviewed with probably close to 30 residency program directors and associate program directors...you know, the ones who decide who they rank in their program. Like I said, the bulk of your success will depend on you and not about where you attend medical school. However, it would be unfair to say name recognition doesn't help because it definitely does. Now the school that will help you become successful...that's a different story.

 

[IamSuperDoctor]

So if you want to choose a school based on the university's popularity, the number of people that know about the school's name (for example when you're talking to your future patients, friends, family, general public...etc), then I'd say:

I will kindly put my foot down and stop you in your tracks.

 

[jnuts]

Deciding on which Irish medical school is really tough as there's not a lot of information out there. Here are a few things I wish I'd known.

I think it might be important to talk about differences in the scheduling of the final years of the four year programs. There is no such thing as 'core clinicals' or 'elective' subjects in Ireland and different schools distribute the clinical subjects (Medicine, Surgery, Paeds, Obs/Gyn, General Practice, and Psych) differently over the final two years.

The issue here is that you will do all of your electives in the summer after your third year and you want to be as impressive as possible during those electives. You do not want to be in a situation where you are rotating through specialty electives in Canada/US when you haven't done your core clinical in that subject. Unless you are very very good at independent study you'll look a little foolish (or at least I would).

I know pre-admission is very early to be considering a specialty but people do get screwed over by this on occasion; so I think its worth some thought. I don't know what the schedule is at the other schools (other than its is different) but RCSI does 6 weeks of Med/Surg(usually three of each) and all of GP, Obs/Gyn, Psych, and Paeds in the third year. Then the bulk of Med/Surg in final year.

So that's something that may be a selling point for other schools and I think the education at all three schools is pretty much the same overall; and other people have made good cases for minor differences. And before I go on, I'm biased as I am currently in final year at RCSI. but there are some major things that RCSI offers that I think will help you match back home.

1)Electives: RCSI has--by far--the most organized reciprocal electives in both the USA and Canada. Though there's competition for them, almost everyone who applies gets one. RCSI also allows students to do a couple of months of electives abroad as part of the curriculum in final year in addition to the summer break. This extra time to do more electives can be really helpful, especially if you're applying to more than one specialty or both in Canada and the States.


2) Administration: Because RCSI is a stand-alone medical school with a large group of North Americans the administration is a lot shallower and the school tends to adapt a lot faster to changing requirements back home. I think the general opinion is that the other Irish medical schools adopt policies that have been successful at RCSI one or two years later, once they find out about them and get them through all the levels of the university bureaucracy. This manifests itself in a lot of different ways but everything about going to medical school in Europe and trying to match in North America is a bureaucratic nightmare. Every year there are a couple of horror stories of people who's documents are late, incorrect, or incomplete due to administrative snafus. At RCSI this happens less often because the administration is more accessible and is used to North American applications. For example, the staff at RCSI are taught how to write North American style reference letters. You also receive regular updates about what needs to be done when.



3)North American specific support: RCSI offers more support for the USMLE/MCCEE than the other schools. There are weekly review sessions by staff covering ample questions, you get a few months of Kaplan Qbank access, Kaplan assessment tests and an USMLE exam strategies session. Also the entire MCQ portion of the RCSI exams is in the process of changing to conform to NBME guidelines.


4) Other North Americans: because RCSI has the largest population of North Americans, the peer support is stronger (at the moment). There are yearly peer-led lectures on all aspects of getting back to Canada from observerships/research, to electives, to matching strategies. The whole process of getting back home is complicated and unforgiving so it's nice to have a road map and guides.


So that's my OPINION, and I'd highlight that it's based on direct exposure to RCSI and second hand information about the other schools. They may have programs/policies/practices of which I'm not aware. Also, I can't tell you that any of this translates into better match rates as those data are difficult to collect and interpret for reasons it would take another post this length to explain. I guess regardless, it's nice to have the support.



For what it's worth on the rankings issue. RCSI isn't usually ranked as it's only a medical (and associated professions) school. Also, I'd be wary of using the ranking for a university as a whole to judge the quality of the medical faculty. The two may not line up.


So that's my two cents; hope it's not too controversial.

 

[schroon]

jnuts - -

Thank you for taking the time to provide the above considered post.

 

[Der Kaiser]

jnuts - -

Thank you for taking the time to provide the above considered post.

x2. Making me wish I received a first round RCSI interview.

 

[Arb]

Curriculum scheduling, UCD is the only school where you will finish all of med, surg, paeds, obs/gyn (also anesthesia, rads) before the summer of your final year. When it's time to do your crucial electives, you will have the exposure and background that other students will not have.

UCD will also be the only school where students will not miss any rotations to do interviews. Trinity for example will make you make up the days you missed and many final year meds are very peeved. You will not be able to go to 20 interviews if you're a TCD student unless you have some persuasion...and UCC has some issues as well. RCSI manages.

Electives, all Irish schools have affiliations with American schools. This is not needed to obtain an elective. This past year, students have obtained electives at UPenn, Rochester U, Mayo Clinic, Sloan Kettering, Columbia, UKansas, Washington U, Harvard (MGH) and many, many others. Canadian electives are first come first served.

UCD and UCC offer Kaplan prep for USMLE. Not needed.

Administration, RCSI is the clear winner.

 

[schroon]

I am unclear (i) whether any of the 4 years other than RCSI offer interviews, and (ii) when the acceptance letters are sent out by UCd, UCC and UC Limerick.

The importance of timing is that from posts on this site from previous years it appears that students who are interviewed and accepted based on Feb 25 & 26th interviews will receive their acceptance letters approximately 2 weeks later (March 15th+/-) and have 3 weeks (April 10th?) to pay a sizable deposit ($9K+/-) to RCSI.

Based upon that timeline it is possible that a student wishing to attend another 4 year program would not be able to attend another school because they would have been locked in to RCSI by the paid deposit.

Any thoughts?

 

[monkeyonthenet]

"I am unclear (i) whether any of the 4 years other than RCSI offer interviews, and (ii) when the acceptance letters are sent out by UCd, UCC and UC Limerick."

I know that for sure UCL does interviews sometime in April and on. As for acceptances into UCD and UCC from what I've read, people seemed to get accepted in late March to April and on.

"The importance of timing is that from posts on this site from previous years it appears that students who are interviewed and accepted based on Feb 25 & 26th interviews will receive their acceptance letters approximately 2 weeks later (March 15th+/-) and have 3 weeks (April 10th?) to pay a sizable deposit ($9K+/-) to RCSI.
Based upon that timeline it is possible that a student wishing to attend another 4 year program would not be able to attend another school because they would have been locked in to RCSI by the paid deposit."

Unfortunately that is the most frustrating part. If you have the means, you could also make the deposit and wait for the answers of other schools (seems like rejections based on acceptance to another school is just a myth but correct me if I am wrong). But beware, if you decide not to accept the offer and risk the decisions of other schools, you run the risk of wasting an entire year (worst-case scenario)