Quick Jobs Report from CAP13

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pathdoc68

pathdoc68

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Ok folks - things are more dismal than you may imagine. I am here at CAP 13 in Orlando - there are tons of residents here (even a few that speak English). As usual the CAP has a message board for postings- I have always seen jobs posted on that in the past. The present postings include an experienced pathologist's CV who is looking for a job. Additionally, there is a job posted from the Boise VA, and a Florida practice looking for an experienced, board certified neuropathologist. That's it -- 2 jobs.

I have talked with CAP members and CAP big-wigs and let me tell you, self-referral/pod labs is such a huge problem. Some groups have had to let people go from business losses, many groups say pod labs can siphon 35% of their cases. Couple this with the attacks on reimbursement.

I am not an alarmist - but I would never go into pathology today, and I am sorry I got into this field 10 years ago.

Do NOT listen to the lies of academic pathologists and workforce studies.

Consider yourselves warned. I truly wish someone warned me.

😡😡
 
Last edited:
pathdoc68 said:
Ok folks - things are more dismal than you may imagine. I am here at CAP 13 in Orlando - there are tons of residents here (even a few that speak English). As usual the CAP has a message board for postings- I have always seen jobs posted on that in the past. The present postings include an experienced pathologist's CV who is looking for a job. Additionally, there is a job posted from the Boise VA, and a Florida practice looking for an experienced, board certified neuropathologist. That's it -- 2 jobs.

I have talked with CAP members and CAP big-wigs and let me tell you, self-referral/pod labs is such a huge problem. Some groups have had to let people go from business losses, many groups say pod labs can siphon 35% of their cases. Couple this with the attacks on reimbursement.

I am not an alarmist - but I would never go into pathology today, and I am sorry I got into this field 10 years ago.

Do NOT listen to the lies of academic pathologists and workforce studies.

Consider yourselves warned. I truly wish someone warned me.

😡😡
Click to expand...

Thanks for letting us know. Academic pathologists who post on here and say pathology is a great field please read and respond.
 
Someone should post the histotech position in CA from the cap PATHOLOGIST job website. Put that on the message board. Minimum of 5 years exp....residency and just one fellowship. Not the 2-3 fellowships we are moving towards.
 
I think 35 percent of business pods siphon off is a low number. Client billing has also harmed anatomic pathology.

I wouldn't post a job, would use my network to find someone worthy. Best to network early, don't make any enemies.
 
Torsed said:
I...would use my network to find someone worthy. Best to network early, don't make any enemies.
Click to expand...
Agreed. But with so many people around trying to network, I've seen plenty of people get fed up and quit talking to new people.
 
If some over-eager resident tried to "network" with me while I was trying to enjoy the conference, I would leave from him/her immediately.
 
Oh sure. But not just conferences, and not just pushy "be my friend please because I need to network" situations.

But really, how does one effectively network?

Meeting people at a conference or chatting with visiting speakers a bit after their talk is really, really, low-yield. It is very unlikely you'll see them again any time soon, and if you do your prior "connection" isn't likely to mean much.

It doesn't matter how collegial you are with your attendings during residency, very few (or none) of them are going to become aware of openings at their friend's institutions. If someone is looking for a new hire, do they really call up their old residency buddies and colleagues from prior jobs to get the word out? Maybe so, but unless they get an immediate reply back I don't see them sitting around waiting for the network to produce a warm body.

Investigating specific areas and practices may be fruitful. There is one particular town and practice I would eventually like to join, so I called them up and asked to meet to discuss general pathology topics. It was easy for me to justify this, me being a resident in a larger academic institution and they being a smaller rural practice. I asked about their practice model, they asked me about current happenings in academics, and we made a contact out of it. I occasionally give them another call or email and meet when I happen to be passing through. There are two pathologists in this group who are in their mid-70's and may wish to retire soon, so if that happens I hope they think of me and the interest I expressed.

But really, for all that it still seems like a long shot. They're more likely to do well putting out an advert and getting someone with experience. The applicant pool is big enough they shouldn't have too much trouble.

That assumes they even retire. Apparently one of the senior pathologists has no intention of retiring anytime soon. The other would like to retire, but his investments apparently took a big hit in 2008 and haven't quite recovered yet. Le sigh.

Sorry. Very scattered post. :/
 
Thrombus said:
If some over-eager resident tried to "network" with me while I was trying to enjoy the conference, I would leave from him/her immediately.
Click to expand...

Haha. If your real persona is anything like your internet persona, something tells me you don't have to worry about strangers approaching you...
 
It is very absurd that there is such a disconnect between the front-line pathologists and the academic ones in terms of employment opportunities. Who does one believe? The front-line guys have only anecdote to fuel their ramblings, and the academics lean on poorly conducted market research and baseless assumptions about retirement patterns without saying anything about the job market at the present time.

If I were a student, I'd run the other way if only to not find myself wrapped up in this debate.
 
jkdoctor said:
Don't worry because any minute now BUPathology will come and post about an ASCP job market survey to "prove" all is well.

Also don't worry because any minute now yaah will come and post that this is an anecdote and everyone he knows got a job and you need "data" to prove there is an oversupply of pathologists.
Click to expand...

<---👍🙄
 
Many pathologists are being laid off in my state. A large reference lab bought up some labs and decided to outsource the work out of state to a another facility. A few of the pathologists got positions working for a histotech who has managed to get a lab off the ground in the chaos. It's depressing as hell watching what has happened to this field. ZERO job security and ZERO respect.

Seriously, do not go into pathology. We havent even hit bottom yet. The worse is yet to come. :scared:
 
jkdoctor said:
Don't worry because any minute now BUPathology will come and post about an ASCP job market survey to "prove" all is well.

Also don't worry because any minute now yaah will come and post that this is an anecdote and everyone he knows got a job and you need "data" to prove there is an oversupply of pathologists.
Click to expand...

Ok I enjoyed a good chuckle from this. Nice work.:laugh:
 
2121115 said:
Fail.
Click to expand...

What does fail mean? If it wasnt for that histotech, those paths would be unemployed right now. Just shows that you should keep a good relationship with your staff because you never know when you may need their help. Another histotech recommended a path friend of mine for a job at a local biotech company, where the tech was working, and he got the job. Networking is more than just humping other pathologist's legs at meetings. :laugh:
 
WEBB PINKERTON said:
What does fail mean? If it wasnt for that histotech, those paths would be unemployed right now. Just shows that you should keep a good relationship with your staff because you never know when you may need their help. Another histotech recommended a path friend of mine for a job at a local biotech company, where the tech was working, and he got the job. Networking is more than just humping other pathologist's legs at meetings. :laugh:
Click to expand...

This is a riot. Soon we will all be taking orders from the phleb's as they will have more leverage than a pathologist with 5 fellowships.
 
once we can figure out how to get rid of those folks over 65, everything will be fine!!!
No riot or extraordinary measures will be necessary.
 
dhpath said:
once we can figure out how to get rid of those folks over 65, everything will be fine!!!
No riot or extraordinary measures will be necessary.
Click to expand...

And while you're at it, please figure out how to cut residency slots. 😀
 
dhpath said:
once we can figure out how to get rid of those folks over 65, everything will be fine!!!
Click to expand...

The way things are going, after all the training, two fellowships, and 3-5 years of piecemeal practice just to get enough experience on the resume to land a real job, I'll be lucky if I start my career proper by the time I'm 42. In such a case, I doubt I'll be enthusiastic about retiring at 65. Vicious circle.
 
Silent Cool said:
In other words, "Let's control the market some more."
:naughty:
Click to expand...

Of course isnt that what the Labor Unions and both Political Parties do every single day?

I wouldnt mind some more market control tbh.
 
Johnny Sunshine said:
It doesn't matter how collegial you are with your attendings during residency, very few (or none) of them are going to become aware of openings at their friend's institutions. If someone is looking for a new hire, do they really call up their old residency buddies and colleagues from prior jobs to get the word out? Maybe so, but unless they get an immediate reply back I don't see them sitting around waiting for the network to produce a warm body.
Click to expand...

Yes, our practice does exactly this! We have hired 5 new pathologists over the last 4 years and all of them were found by calling up our old attendings at the institutions where we trained and asking if they have any good residents or fellows who might be interested in a job in our area. (I have also called former fellow residents in the hopes that they would come join our practice, but the good ones all have jobs they don't want to leave.) We have not posted one of our job openings because we've had such great luck calling around and spreading the word. If you're a resident or fellow, let your attendings know you're looking, and where you're looking, for jobs.
 
Ultimately we need to reduce supply by:
1. Encourage and/or apply pressure to folks over 65 to retire.
2. Reduce residency slots

Then networking and other methods will work much better
 
dhpath said:
Ultimately we need to reduce supply by:
1. Encourage and/or apply pressure to folks over 65 to retire.
2. Reduce residency slots

Then networking and other methods will work much better
Click to expand...

Why should people over 65 be encouraged or forced to retire? Will you? I sure won't.
 
It is impossible to actually FORCE a competent older pathologist to retire. And there are very specific laws against this.

In fact my uncle just rewrote his law firm's bylaws to allow him to continue working full time past 70..so even corporate bylaws are easily circumvented in this regards.

You cant really impose a draconian Soylent Green/Logan's Run type solution to this problem. You have to fix it at the faucet not the drain.
 
I certainly would.
I have seen folks working in their 70's 80's

Asked many of them why?
Answer: Nothing else to do.

Please let the young and new blood take over, find smoothing else to get busy or may work part time as an adviser: At least I would retire just at 65 or perhaps earlier, whenever I can get an affordable health insurance (Obamacare will be helpful!!!).
 
smallcat said:
Yes, our practice does exactly this! We have hired 5 new pathologists over the last 4 years and all of them were found by calling up our old attendings at the institutions where we trained and asking if they have any good residents or fellows who might be interested in a job in our area. (I have also called former fellow residents in the hopes that they would come join our practice, but the good ones all have jobs they don't want to leave.) We have not posted one of our job openings because we've had such great luck calling around and spreading the word. If you're a resident or fellow, let your attendings know you're looking, and where you're looking, for jobs.
Click to expand...

Exactly. This is the biggest advantage, IMHO, of being at a "top" program. These tend to have extensive networks, and alumni know the quality of the training. I remember residents being approached all the time by faculty members contacted by alumni.
 
LADoc00 said:
It is impossible to actually FORCE a competent older pathologist to retire. And there are very specific laws against this.

In fact my uncle just rewrote his law firm's bylaws to allow him to continue working full time past 70..so even corporate bylaws are easily circumvented in this regards.

You cant really impose a draconian Soylent Green/Logan's Run type solution to this problem. You have to fix it at the faucet not the drain.
Click to expand...

That would be pretty sweet. Pathology Carousel. You get all the immunos you want when you ascend. There are unlimited 88305s for each pathologist, full reimbursement, and no medicare.
 
jkdoctor said:
Also don't worry because any minute now yaah will come and post that this is an anecdote and everyone he knows got a job and you need "data" to prove there is an oversupply of pathologists.
Click to expand...

What does this comment even mean? Your anecdotes are better than my anecdotes because yours are more recent? Go back and find a post where I said the job market was great. I always ask about data because I want to see the real data and I'm sick of hearing anecdotes that conflict. I have never said there isn't a current oversupply of pathologists. The fact that I don't know any competent unemployed pathologists is somewhat relevant since I know lots of pathologists. But it doesn't mean there aren't too many trainees or too many less than competent pathologists. You can choose for yourself just how relevant my anecdotes need to be for your purposes. I realize that on these forums every pathologist in practice is 79 and evil and every trainee is the most brilliant mind in history, but these forums are not always the best representation of reality.

I really have no way of knowing whether a cork board at the CAP is an appropriate indicator of the current job market status. But yeah, I agree with you, cork boards definitely trump data. Let's just throw out all plans to gather data to accurately gauge the level of the problem because some guy says the corkboard is bare.

I will say this though: If I was advertising for a job in my group I would most definitely go with the cork board and forget other methods. Everyone knows the best candidates for every job come from ads on cork boards and flyers taped to flagpoles.

I want data because only data can really push action and serious change. You guys can post all you want about anecdotes and rumors and "YOU WERE WARNED" garbage and dismiss data but no one is ever going to listen to you or take you seriously without a coherent argument. Cork boards are not going to cut it.
 
dhpath said:
Ultimately we need to reduce supply by:
1. Encourage and/or apply pressure to folks over 65 to retire.
2. Reduce residency slots
Click to expand...

How would you do #1 exactly? LADoc is right it's kind of illegal to force that. And are we encouraging some sort of societal engineering or death panels now on this forum? A competent, experienced 65 year old can often do the work of 3 people out of training. It benefits almost everyone except the 3 people out of training.

I swear there is so much conflicting thinking going on on this forum. We hear all about the free market and capitalism and all that, but as soon as anyone is at the mercy of this we break out the radical left and get protectionist. It's incoherent at times.
 
A competent, experienced 65 year old can often do the work of 3 people out of training. It benefits almost everyone except the 3 people out of training.

I have not seen one like this!!!!!
They may exist, perhaps exceedingly rare.
 
yaah said:
What does this comment even mean? Your anecdotes are better than my anecdotes because yours are more recent? Go back and find a post where I said the job market was great. I always ask about data because I want to see the real data and I'm sick of hearing anecdotes that conflict. I have never said there isn't a current oversupply of pathologists. The fact that I don't know any competent unemployed pathologists is somewhat relevant since I know lots of pathologists. But it doesn't mean there aren't too many trainees or too many less than competent pathologists. You can choose for yourself just how relevant my anecdotes need to be for your purposes. I realize that on these forums every pathologist in practice is 79 and evil and every trainee is the most brilliant mind in history, but these forums are not always the best representation of reality.

I really have no way of knowing whether a cork board at the CAP is an appropriate indicator of the current job market status. But yeah, I agree with you, cork boards definitely trump data. Let's just throw out all plans to gather data to accurately gauge the level of the problem because some guy says the corkboard is bare.

I will say this though: If I was advertising for a job in my group I would most definitely go with the cork board and forget other methods. Everyone knows the best candidates for every job come from ads on cork boards and flyers taped to flagpoles.

I want data because only data can really push action and serious change. You guys can post all you want about anecdotes and rumors and "YOU WERE WARNED" garbage and dismiss data but no one is ever going to listen to you or take you seriously without a coherent argument. Cork boards are not going to cut it.
Click to expand...

My Department has hired literally dozens of pathologists over the past 6 years and never posted the position on a corkboard. Perhaps we missed the major recruitment method?

The fact that there were no jobs on the corkboard should not be considered definitive proof that the job market is poor.

I also do not know any unemployed competent pathologists. None.
 
dhpath said:
A competent, experienced 65 year old can often do the work of 3 people out of training. It benefits almost everyone except the 3 people out of training.

I have not seen one like this!!!!!
They may exist, perhaps exceedingly rare.
Click to expand...


It's amazing that so many people think on these forums that things that are common in real life (like excellent trainees who land a great job, or 65 year old competent and excellent pathologists, or an IMG who is a great pathologist and clinician) are "exceedingly rare" yet things that truly are rare (like unemployed pathologists, or people going into private practice who get offered $100K to start) are so common as to warrant immediate panic.

All I ask for from our posters is a little bit of perspective. The real world is actually quite varied and while some stereotypes and assumptions have validity (like that there are lots of older pathologists who won't retire, or that there are too many residency spots, etc) it never tells the whole story. The world in general as well as in pathology is rather complex and nuanced. I know that nuance is not as sexy or easy to jump to conclusions about as an inflammatory post or rumor, but such is real life. There are outliers and there is what is more common. While outliers are important for many reasons, they are not typically a reason to completely alter ones mindset or direction.

Personally, I cannot believe that the "current" pathology job market, for whatever it is, should have any significant impact on the decision of someone who has just started med school as to what specialty to pursue. At that point, "getting a real job" is no less than 5 if not 10 years away from reality. What is far more important is to try to get an assessment of what things will be like THEN, not now. That is a much harder task.
 
yaah said:
How would you do #1 exactly? LADoc is right it's kind of illegal to force that. And are we encouraging some sort of societal engineering or death panels now on this forum? A competent, experienced 65 year old can often do the work of 3 people out of training. It benefits almost everyone except the 3 people out of training.
Click to expand...

The answer to forcing large-scale retirements among elderly pathologists is to remove life-long Board certification. While there are certainly plenty of highly competent pathologists over 65, there are also quite a few elderly pathologists who pose a serious dangerous to patients because of their incompetence. I am sure that we have all seen a few during residency training.
 
I think mandatory re-cert of pathologists with life-time certificates will happen in the near future due to demands from payors and credential commitys. The system will generate the pressure to do so. i also think that the market devestation from the dot com bust of early 1990's thru the crash that bottomed in March 2009 has been more than overcome for most prudent investors (those who continued to dollar cost average into primarilly equities and resisted the tempetation to sell into a down market) who are now comfortable and will consider retiring, particularly as reimbursement decreases and demands on individual pathologists increase. It was enough to make me retire.
 
The smell of desperation is thick at some of these meetings. I'm trying to find a freakin' job and I recently had a fellow dropping his card to me while I was trying to network. 🙄
 
Napoleon1801 said:
The smell of desperation is thick at some of these meetings. I'm trying to find a freakin' job and I recently had a fellow dropping his card to me while I was trying to network. 🙄
Click to expand...

Sounds like you were both trying to 'network' :laugh:
 
Napoleon1801 said:
The smell of desperation is thick at some of these meetings. I'm trying to find a freakin' job and I recently had a fellow dropping his card to me while I was trying to network. 🙄
Click to expand...

Is "dropping his card to me" what the kids are calling it these days?
 
Bump...since i just got the cap "shortage article" in the mail.

CAP 13....2 jobs. Major path conference...2 jobs.

No jobs and the worst cuts by cms.

ASCP tries to spin the cuts, CAP pushes a shortage.

What is amazing is pathology just keeps getting worse. You think we have reached bottom, but wait......it gets worse.
 
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