QUITTING med school for bioengineering PhD??

[medoholic]

So i am in my second year of med school and in a few months will be 1/2 way through this crazy 4yr endeavor (taking step 1 this spring!). After a lot of contemplation and a lot of mixed feelings over the past several years, I've finally realized that I really have no interest in working with patients in the clinic.

What I really want to do is biomedical engineering work in industry (like tissue engineering, biosensors, and drug delivery type of stuff more specifically) and way later down the line do research as a professor. Not to knock the clinical work at all, its just not for me (despite the potential for more pay it has).

My question is this: i'm thinking very seriously about dropping med school all together and pursuing a Bioengineering PhD. Is there anyone in the BME field or does anyone have any input on if sticking it out in med school for another couple years and then going for the PhD would be better. Are there advantages to having the MD in addition to a BME PhD that would make 2x+ the debt and another 2.5 years of the med school torment worth it? Esp. if I end up not doing a residency and going for the engineering PhD after the MD.

I would try to get into the md/phd program at my school, but they don't have biomedical engineering here. I was a neurosci. major as undergrad and actually have had a lot of research experience already (computational modeling), even continued on the side throughout MS1 + MS2 (got a couple first author pubs!!). But what I really want out of the pHD is the engineering / math / physics classes and training which I don't have any of so that I can come up with some cool stuff. + the transition from the computer programming modeling to working with a PI focused on the engineering, design, and wet lab research.

I've read a lot of posts and ppl talk about doing the extended fellowship thing instead of a phd. But thats after residency right? Would that really get me enough training/classes to research and design BME tech. when I don't have the engineering background? Is there a point to the residency, or even finishing out med school if I just want to do BME research and no clinical work at all?

Any input?? I finally figured out what I really want to do. Which was a HUGE step. I guess i'm just trying to figure out the best way to do it now...

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[SplenoMegastar]

You can talk to your school about taking a leave of absence to do a PhD elsewhere. People have done that at my school. It might be a little late to apply this year but you can look around. UC Berkeley and MIT deadlines have passed for example. Is there really nothing at all you could see yourself doing in medicine. If not, maybe leaving isn't a terrible idea. I'm sure 3rd year sounds daunting if you dislike clinical medicine. But I think it might be smart to stick around though and just apply next year to PhD programs.

 

[Build]

So I can relate to a lot of your interests. I did BME for undergrad with 4 years of biosensor research, and I'm now in an MD/PhD and will continue BME for grad school. My previous research was device-centered. From my perspective, clinical practice aside, an MD training provides a tremendous base of knowledge on which to move forward in a medical device research career. Engineering product design centers around customer needs (and the FDA in this case). An MD + BME degree makes you both the engineer and the customer which may give you unique insight. The one particular catch to finishing the MD would be the debt encumbered in your case. Also, keep in mind that most PhD programs will either offer you a TA or RA or scholarship, so you won't be doubling your debt in grad school.

One point about BME PhDs, they are often skewed towards more basic research. BME academics has many faculty who are excellent scientists but have no experience in medical product development. While the courses you take may (or may not) lend itself towards your research and general BME knowledge, they most likely will have little to do with industry careers. I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that you might want to also consider a BME MS or an MS/MBA or a biotech-jisted MBA program.

Regarding post-doc type fellowships, they won't be the same as an actual engineering degree. But there are some particular programs such as the fellowships at the Biodesign at Stanford that are specifically centered on biomed product development.

Another point, don't forget that there are a variety of areas of medicine that don't require much or any direct patient contact.

Lastly, make sure you spend some time talking with some engineers working in the medical device field. Many industry jobs involve lots of computer work, lots of dealing with FDA requirements, and a primary focus on profit rather than innovation, discovery, or helping others.

Good luck! I'm sure other people can give some good input too. Let me know if you have more q's.

 

[medoholic]

Thanks for the input. I am wondering about what specifically the advantage of an MD would be in a career in industry with a BME phd. Is it easier to find jobs, better pay, or easier to find grant money in academia? How significant of a difference does it really make?

 

[dl2dp2]

Thanks for the input. I am wondering about what specifically the advantage of an MD would be in a career in industry with a BME phd. Is it easier to find jobs, better pay, or easier to find grant money in academia? How significant of a difference does it really make?

overall i think if you are 100% sure you have no interest in patient care, dropping out is an excellent choice. Safe to say that in the industry board certified MDs generally make as much or more as their clinical counter parts, simply because of market pressure. MDs generally get paid as much as twice or more as a PhD engineer does, but your job description is very different. Also, these MDs also need to be board certified, which involved at least 3 more years of clinical work. So you are looking at a minimum of 5 more years of patient care.

 

[calvinNhobbes]

Simply having an MD with no additional residency training or board certification will not really help you in industry R&D or academia. If you have no interest in patient care, do not complete the MD. It is a waste of your time and money.

Sucks you didn't realize that before applying to med school.

 

[RxnMan]

So i am in my second year of med school and in a few months will be 1/2 way through this crazy 4yr endeavor (taking step 1 this spring!). After a lot of contemplation and a lot of mixed feelings over the past several years, I've finally realized that I really have no interest in working with patients in the clinic...

Have you tried working with patients yet? Or in any of the fields that don't directly interact with patients? The house of medicine is huge, and there's a place for everyone.

...What I really want to do is biomedical engineering work in industry (like tissue engineering, biosensors, and drug delivery type of stuff more specifically) and way later down the line do research as a professor. Not to knock the clinical work at all, its just not for me (despite the potential for more pay it has)...

The biggest things that a MD has over a PhD are:

1) Access to residency training
2) Access to patients

A residency-trained physician has many more options, especially in industry and research, than one who went private right after obtaining a MD or PhD. Drug delivery? You will be much more desirable to companies if you can design and conduct the clinical trial of their drug, which requires MD + residency.

For example, an industrial partner may ask you whether some item is interesting or is worth developing, and you'll be able to instantly know, based on your residency experience, whether it's good idea or not, the potential pitfalls, and so on. That's incredibly valuable for businesses. You wrote about getting the BME knowledge to design your own products - residency won't teach you how to design a chip, but as a residency-trained physician, you'll know better than any engineer what that chip needs to do and which patients will benefit the most from it.

In your case, you might want to consider staying in school and doing either ortho or PM&R. Both rely on biomechanics, and you'll get a flavor for the science as you go through either residency. Both would allow you the opportunity to design your own tools or technology - I say this as a former bioengineer who worked for years with physiatrists and orthopods.

If you're looking at drug delivery, there's clinical pharm programs out there for MDs. Just look at any drug company website. Also consider an ABIM Research Pathway residency. 2 years of clinic + 3 years of lab/graduate research, which can allow you to get a PhD.

...I've read a lot of posts and ppl talk about doing the extended fellowship thing instead of a phd. But thats after residency right? Would that really get me enough training/classes to research and design BME tech. when I don't have the engineering background? Is there a point to the residency, or even finishing out med school if I just want to do BME research and no clinical work at all?..

Fellowship would be after residency, but there's many different types of residency programs and they vary in length/difficulty/opportunities. Do what you like, but realize your MD is a ticket to a lot of neat options if you look for them.

 

[fairalexfield]

You wrote about getting the BME knowledge to design your own products - residency won't teach you how to design a chip, but as a residency-trained physician, you'll know better than any engineer what that chip needs to do and which patients will benefit the most from it.

But if his interest is more in how to design the chip, he can consult a physician to learn what the chip should do. If he's more into the engineering design then the MD doesn't make much sense IMHO.

However, I wouldn't make this huge life decision based on what people say on a message board...

 

[RxnMan]

But if his interest is more in how to design the chip, he can consult a physician to learn what the chip should do. If he's more into the engineering design then the MD doesn't make much sense IMHO...

He asked about sensors, tissue engineering, and drug delivery, all of which are done by MDs.

If he wants to design circuit boards, nobody's going to tell him to stay in medicine. My comments are meant to show there are other ways he can do most of the things he asked about, without losing 6-7+ years of his life (2 MD + 4-5 PhD + post-doc) and being saddled with 100K in loans. A residency will allow him to go further in that direction, faster, be better paid, and get more funding, while making use of the training he already has.

...However, I wouldn't make this huge life decision based on what people say on a message board...

Agreed. OP, talk to someone IRL who can help you make this decision.