race in admissions

[Jennifer Zeigler]

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Hi everyone:

I'm a writer for The New Physician magazine, and I'm working on an article about the Supreme Court's ruling on affirmative action and how it's affecting medical schools. I have a couple of requests:

First, I'd like some student thoughts on the decision itself. Did you agree with it? Why or why not? What role do you think race and ethnicity should have in admissions policies? Do any of you feel that you benefited from an affirmative action policy? If you respond to these questions, please consider your answers on the record and provide me with your name, school and year. Also send us a photo -- either digital or print (addresses below) -- we're going to use these comments in a kind of sidebar to the article.

Second, I'd like to know how race and ethnicity is considered in the admissions process at your schools. Was it a factor? Have administrators altered the policy in the wake of the Supreme Court decision? How so? Who would we talk to there about the policy? What about scholarships and recruitment efforts -- are any there race-based? Have they changed at all since the June decision?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts. I look forward to hearing from many of you.

Jennifer

_____________________________________________
Jennifer Zeigler
senior writer, The New Physician magazine
1902 Association Drive
Reston, VA 20191
(703) 620-6600, ext. 230
jzeigler@www.amsa.org
www.amsa.org/tnp/tnp.cfm

 

[Pre-Dent-David]

Ill summarize the situation:

URM: Happy because they have an unconditional/automatic boost.

Non-URM: Angry because they do not recieve it.

That's all.

 

[dave262]

.

 

[carrigallen]

erm..I would recommend discounting the above post.

Account "dave262" is called a troll, since he makes claim to teaching MCAT classes, being a medical student, and other oddities. He uses inane and foul language in his posts.

Nothing to add to your thread otherwise.

 

[dave262]

Foul language and med school are incompatible? Where do we get surgeons from then? Sit back down you silly MS-I. But I'll keep everything rated G from now on just for the poor kid whose parents named him carrie.

Oh and I even made T-shirts for one of my mcat classes that I teach that said "the MCAT is my B*tch" complete with the Kaplan logo.

You'll have to re-thread this one Jennifer, I think we are getting off topic.

 

[LuckyMD2b]

Originally posted by dave262
and though congestive heart failure may appear more in blacks than in italians - it sure doesnt present any differently.)

because he has more melanocytes.

However they have spoken. In the interest of putting more physicians in the ghetto, I think its swell.

...Of course, im only saying this because im already in. Take this to the Pre-Allopath forum and....well, I shudder tho think of how I would have ranted against it back then.


Its Racism plain and simple -

liberal horsecrap about how reverse discrimintation makes the world a much better place, hell, I bet you could throw in a few "kill whitey's!" in there and it would be okay.

1) Actually many diseases can and do present differently between different races because there are cultural differences between perception of pain and illness; not to mention documented disparities between minority access to health care and patient-doctor interactions

2) "how many melanocytes"? I'd think that a medical student would be educated enough to realize that there is more to a race than how dark-skinned a person is. Secondly a person's skin color isn't related to how many melanocytes they have but the amount of melanin that these cells produce-- dingus.

3) Minorities do not only live in the ghetto, and the fact that people still hold these stereotypes is demonstrative of why affirmative action is still needed

4) Why don't you take your complaints about the "liberal media" to Shawn Hannity and Friends on Fox News.

5)Racism: do you mean the documented disparities the exist in minorities being less likely to recieve renal transplantation or cardiac catheterization, etc. even after accounting for income, health insurance status, and co-morbidity.

dave262... Go F*** urself

 

[militarymd]

Jennifer,

I graduated from a private medical school in 1993. Under represented minorities represented about 20% of my class. Needless to say, my alma mater believed in class diversity.

They URMs represented 100% of the students who were held back to repeat years during medical school. One was held back 4 times. That's right, 8 years to finish a 4 year school. This person graduated with me in 1993. I'm pretty sure this person comes from a well off family.....8 years of medical school is pretty expensive.

The URMs represented >95% of the students who did not pass USMLE I.

Only the URMs had access to special tutoring classes that, although available to the rest of the class, were not publicized.

I had classmates during my undergraduate years who I know would have performed better but who were not accepted.

AA is wrong.

militarymd

 

[bullhorn]

Thanks militarymd for your anecdotal reasoning.
Clearly if you are smart enough to finish medical school, you must realize that your story can not be used to generalize an entire group of people. 🙄


Further, what school did you attend that had 20% urm population...i'd like to offer someone a suggestion for application next cycle.

thanks
bullhorn

 

[militarymd]

Originally posted by bullhorn
Thanks militarymd for your anecdotal reasoning.
Clearly if you are smart enough to finish medical school, you must realize that your story can not be used to generalize an entire group of people. 🙄

I don't believe that I was reasoning about anything. I simply pointed out what it was like at my school without any generalizations to any other schools or any particular race, just the not otherwise identified under represented minority.

Just the facts....followed by how I feel about AA.

 

[azcomdiddy]

I think the "underserved area" excuse is not well founded. The majority of underserved areas are not focused in the inner city. The majority of underserved areas in the U.S. include rural areas, which are comprised mostly of non URM's.

Furthermore, what conclusive evidence is there that claims that URMS are likely to go back and practice in the area they grew up in. Just because you grew up in the ghetto doesn't mean you wish to go back and live there.

Finally, I'm not convinced that having URM's as classmates enriches my learning to the point that it should exclude students who deserved to be there based on merit.

The reason why affirmative action was initiated was due to the fact that many URM's need AA to get into medical school. If you examine states that abolished affirmative action,minority attendance dropped consideraly when merit was the sole deciiding factor.

The real reason why AA is upheld is that the medical establishment is too vital to exclude certain races of people. And that is why AA is initiated despite the fact that is is form of reverse discrimination.

 

[dave262]

Originally posted by LuckyMD2b
1) Actually many diseases can and do present differently between different races because there are cultural differences between perception of pain and illness; not to mention documented disparities between minority access to health care and patient-doctor interactions

2) "how many melanocytes"? I'd think that a medical student would be educated enough to realize that there is more to a race than how dark-skinned a person is. Secondly a person's skin color isn't related to how many melanocytes they have but the amount of melanin that these cells produce-- dingus.

3) Minorities do not only live in the ghetto, and the fact that people still hold these stereotypes is demonstrative of why affirmative action is still needed

4) Why don't you take your complaints about the "liberal media" to Shawn Hannity and Friends on Fox News.

5)Racism: do you mean the documented disparities the exist in minorities being less likely to recieve renal transplantation or cardiac catheterization, etc. even after accounting for income, health insurance status, and co-morbidity.

dave262... Go F*** urself

Awesome! I nominate lucky for SDN's ******ed poster of the year award!

1) I addressed racial differences in access and indicated that was a valid reason for AA

2) Youre right, dickbreath, skin color is related to melanin content not melanocytes, and I do think there is more to race than skin color THATS WHY AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IS SUCH A CROCK OF HORSESH*T - because thats all they consider...skin color.

3) I never said minorities live in the ghetto - re-read my post

4) I love Hannity and fox news. But no, I wont take my complaints to them.

5) Minorities are not discriminated against more only underrepresented ones. Asian, Middle Easterners and Whites all play on the same field. (actually, asians do better)

finally, i'm not sure why you posted with such anger, but I have one big bad guess: You must be a URM...and you dont want to lose reverse discrimination because then you'll have to work as hard as the rest of us. Now go study.

 

[Purifyer]

An amusing anecdote;

In second year we had a lecture on facial and reconstructive surgery [or something similar, it's been a while]. After he had finished, the lecturer asked if anyone had any questions. A URM, mature student (can you get any more underpriveledged? 🙂 ) piped up with a question I'll never forget...

'So... how do you make the plastic look so real?'

 

[MedicinePowder]

This whole bashing and stereotyping is sad.

Anyone that can show me a URM with a 21 MCAT that got into medical school will get one thousand dollars from me. Threads like these deface Latino/a and black students that have credentials equal to or greater than their entering class.

 

[holden73]

affirmative action is a tool by the white devils to subjugate the black man indefinitely through mind tricks and short term incentives. it's like when a pervert entices little children with candy and then kidnaps them and kills them in the middle of nowhere.

will that make the sidebar?

 

[orthoman5000]

Originally posted by MedicinePowder
This whole bashing and stereotyping is sad.

Anyone that can show me a URM with a 21 MCAT that got into medical school will get one thousand dollars from me. Threads like these deface Latino/a and black students that have credentials equal to or greater than their entering class.

When you consider that 2 of my gross anatomy lab partners (white female and white male) got into med school with 23's on the MCAT I don't think your request would be hard to find. Getting a URM to discuss it though might be the hard part.

 

[Heal&Teach]

Originally posted by orthoman5000
When you consider that 2 of my gross anatomy lab partners (white female and white male) got into med school with 23's on the MCAT I don't think your request would be hard to find. Getting a URM to discuss it though might be the hard part.

I'll discuss it. I've got several friends who are in medical schools with MCATs ranging from 21-25, from state schools to Ivies. They are still in school, and they are doing very well in fact.

While I am slightly taken aback by what I see posted here in some instances, I'm not surprised b/c I've heard it all before. And yes, a problem is certainly created if students of color are going to medical school and are constantly threatened with thoughts that others are looking at them as if they have no place being there, even if their stats are competitive with those of their colleagues. The bottom line is that AA is about compensation for historical and systematic institutionalization of racism, sexism, and discrimination based on color, creed, or national origin. People also tend to only pay attention to the fact that indeed, URMs benefit, but so do women as a whole. In fact, AA first and foremost benefits women. While AA allows for a more level playing ground in the admissions process for URMs, the case is that, once in medical school, all students are expected to compete at a certain level - some will make it, some will not. I can attest to the people that I know who have gone against the odds and done well, despite what the numbers show.

 

[supereagles]

Originally posted by Heal&Teach
I'll discuss it. I've got several friends who are in medical schools with MCATs ranging from 21-25, from state schools to Ivies. They are still in school, and they are doing very well in fact.

While I am slightly taken aback by what I see posted here in some instances, I'm not surprised b/c I've heard it all before. And yes, a problem is certainly created if students of color are going to medical school and are constantly threatened with thoughts that others are looking at them as if they have no place being there, even if their stats are competitive with those of their colleagues. The bottom line is that AA is about compensation for historical and systematic institutionalization of racism, sexism, and discrimination based on color, creed, or national origin. People also tend to only pay attention to the fact that indeed, URMs benefit, but so do women as a whole. In fact, AA first and foremost benefits women. While AA allows for a more level playing ground in the admissions process for URMs, the case is that, once in medical school, all students are expected to compete at a certain level - some will make it, some will not. I can attest to the people that I know who have gone against the odds and done well, despite what the numbers show.

Good point. I am a URM student starting med school this fall. If any of my classmates make the mistake of looking at me the wrong way or making out of place remarks about my being in medical school, i would certainly make sure they think twice about making that mistake again. I might seem a little bit aggresive but i believe that being passive perpetuates this problem. I am new to sdn and i am amazed by how many AA threads and how ignorant some of the kids on this site are. As a URM who had to work all through college while still making excellent grades as an undergradate and on the MCAT, i take issues like this very personal. Also, minority students who might not have the best grades have other attractive qualities that qualify them for med school. So for all you haters, get a life and move out of your small ignorant world. URMs are here to stay in med school so y'all can either accept it or go f**k yourself (i am so pissed i couldn' t resist the temptation). Sometimes, i wonder how some of you ignorant doctor wannabes would ever work with your patients from minority groups. This goes to show that medicine is not for everyone.

 

[nutmegs]

Originally posted by supereagles
Good point. I am a URM student starting med school this fall. If any of my classmates make the mistake of looking at me the wrong way or making out of place remarks about my being in medical school, i would certainly make sure they think twice about making that mistake again. I might seem a little bit aggresive but i believe that being passive perpetuates this problem. I am new to sdn and i am amazed by how many AA threads and how ignorant some of the kids on this site are. As a URM who had to work all through college while still making excellent grades as an undergradate and on the MCAT, i take issues like this very personal. Also, minority students who might not have the best grades have other attractive qualities that qualify them for med school. So for all you haters, get a life and move out of your small ignorant world. URMs are here to stay in med school so y'all can either accept it or go f**k yourself (i am so pissed i couldn' t resist the temptation). Sometimes, i wonder how some of you ignorant doctor wannabes would ever work with your patients from minority groups. This goes to show that medicine is not for everyone.

wow, good luck with that attitude 🙄

I think AA as it exists now is wrong because it's looking at the wrong variables. What's to say a black/hispanic kid from an affluent suburb had more of a disadvantage than a white kid from an inner city with a public school HS grad rate of 50%? Set down the anger and think about it for a minute. The reward structure for AA as it exists currently is flawed. By disagreeing with AA policies, NO ONE is saying URMs are out of place in med school.

I'm not sure about the statement that you can have poor grades and have "other attractive qualities that qualify them for med school". Getting accepted to med school is not a right based on how hard you worked- it's based on what you've accomplished. No one is going to say "well, you did fail, but we know you studied REALLY HARD for the USMLE so we'll let you have your license anyway". What should get you into med school is a complete package; high scores, in my opinion, are necessary but not sufficient. I'm not sure I personally would want a physician who wouldn't have been admitted on the basis of their academic achievements alone.

 

[xguo77]

Hi, people:

It's really sad to see so many of you get so angry, using all the strong words. I don't agree nor disagree with any side, but I would like to say that can't we all accept the way it is?
Apparently, both sides feel injustice had taken place, simply put, it's just not fair.
But life is not fair, for those who were born with parents stress reading abilities, they have an advantage on the MCAT, for those who are born with a pleasant personality, they have an advantage getting a good letter of recommendation. No two people are ever the same, and it's just plain luck that differentiate us. We accept the fact that we are born tall or short, with amazing singing ability or tune deaf (like me), why can't we just accept all of our attributes and do the best we can, not to compare with others on a few aspects (like mact)?
Is it fair to even compare anything at all?
So, please don't get angry, or personal, perhaps a lot of politics is involved, it's never about justice or fairness. Why should life be fair anyways?
So please let's not get really mean toward each other, the medical profession and certain type of behaviors are just not compatible, what's more important, this is a public forum, and we should respect each other's opinion, not holding grudges against those who think differently.
It's not about what's fair or not, it's about as individuals, we do the best we can in life, I think.

 

[Heal&Teach]

Nutmegs, I agree with you here. But the thing to consider is that not all URMs with not-so-stellar stats are beneficiaries of affirmative action. I would at least trust some of the adcoms to distinguish the URM from a middle-upper class family from the 'burbs from someone who grew up in an underserved area and clearly hasn't had the same advantages (even though it may not always happen). The applications of some URMs may be looked at more closely for this reason, esp. if the person claims to be from a disadvantaged background and has a desire to work in underserved communities (whether urban or rural). But true, desire only takes you as far as your performance in school.

No one may explicitly state that URMs are out of place in med schools. You've read the boards, you know what people have said - there is a certain amount of tension that exists around this issue, and opinions have been expressed by many folks, and they don't go away after people post on these boards. But you must admit that some people look around at their med school classes and may wonder what kinds of numbers certain people got into an particular school with. I will agree that current AA policies need some overhaul, but I don't think that AA as it currently stands completely ignores social or economic disadvantage.

Xguo77, I agree that it would be nice to drop the issue and have everyone get along, but as it stands, there is too much disagreement on this issue. In all fairness, there are non-URM students out there with stellar stats who are not getting into medical school, and URM students with not-so-stellar ones who get in. The primary issue is the premise on which this type of decision-making occurs, whether it is race-based or based on socio-economic disadvantage. Until it becomes clear how these distinctions are made, we will continue to have these kinds of debates until a reasonable medium is reached. For some, it's eliminating AA altogether, and for others, it means revamping the current system. Whatever the thoughts, I think that everyone has a right to their opinion, and as someone said in a thread a few months back - if you don't like it, take action, and tell it to your congressman.

 

[orthoman5000]

Originally posted by orthoman5000
When you consider that 2 of my gross anatomy lab partners (white female and white male) got into med school with 23's on the MCAT I don't think your request would be hard to find. Getting a URM to discuss it though might be the hard part.

I do want to point out that both of those lab partners have done very well in medical school so far, unlike myself who had an MCAT several points above the school average (I'm kicking butt now though). Of the people that are repeating the first year (either failing or taking leaves of absence) none of them are URM's, and none that took remedial classes during the Summer are URM's to my knowledge.

My school is quite interesting in that we had around 10% (of a class of 150) African Americans, but all but 1 of them were females. The one other URM was a Native American male. The number of African American males in this years M1 class is a whopping zero. The number of females is about the same though.

 

[pdiddy]

Originally posted by Heal&Teach
While AA allows for a more level playing ground in the admissions process for URMs, the case is that, once in medical school, all students are expected to compete at a certain level - some will make it, some will not.

...getting into med school should only be based on merit, placing an idiot (whether they are white, black, orange, or a lovely shade of purple) in medical/law school etc based only on the color of their skin does not benefit anyone...we should level out the playing field by all means....but we should do it at the earliest of stages (i.e. maternity care, newborn care, and up to elementary school)....

 

[Heal&Teach]

Originally posted by pdiddy
...getting into med school should only be based on merit, placing an idiot (whether they are white, black, orange, or a lovely shade of purple) in medical/law school etc based only on the color of their skin does not benefit anyone...we should level out the playing field by all means....but we should do it at the earliest of stages (i.e. maternity care, newborn care, and up to elementary school)....

No doubt diddy, I don't protest that in any way shape or form. But what is observed to be a largely race-based process does also account for socio-economic standing - which is a part of the process that we don't often see. What we see is a propogation of the Michigan cases and assume that ALL admissions employing AA are race-based without truly knowing. Additionally, anyone can have low scores and certainly not be a bumbling idiot - maybe they had a bad testing day, don't test well, etc. Whatever the reason, I again say that not all URMs get a benefit cookie and automatically have a ticket into medical school. Yes, we need to change things on an institutional level, and until then, it is necessary to have some sort of program in place to allow all students equal footing and a chance to thrive in any professional career.

 

[Lara]

Are there any studies concluding that a statistically significant proportion of URMs fail the USMLE on a first try?

If not, I don't understand the complaints about them being underqualified. It's how you perform in *med school*, not undergrad that's important in the end, and if they're capable on the boards they're capable of being doctors. Now if there is such a study, I'd definitely like to know of it since that's something to take seriously.

*stepping away from the fray*

 

[OrthoFixation]

Lara, I have heard your argument before. "Just b/c someone gets in with low stats doesnt mean they will fail." Well just mention that to all the non-urms with equal or better stats. They got screwed, looked past b/c of skin color.

Orthoman, if you would care to put your offer in writing, sign it and have it notarized, then I will waste the time to find your accepted 21 mcat URM. Put your money where your mouth is. PM me and I will send you my address to forward the document. Having your intelligence and accomplishments questioned based on your skin color is what you will have till AA is fixed or nixed. Live by the sword, die by the sword. You personally may not fit the profile, but people may always wonder.

When do the handouts end? Maybe we should lower the board requirements and residency requirements for URMs. You know, tests just aren't fair to non-whites. Board Certification should be easier for URMs also. If you want to offer school slots based on practicing in underserved areas, then draw up a contract to that extent and get on with it. Otherwise, that line of thinking is crap. It is left to the whim of the graduate. They might change their mind in the 8-10 year process. With a contract, it is locked up tight.

I got news for you, if you had a bad test day (for MCAT, USMLE, or whatever) then you should repeat the test and excel.

xguo77, your post is hilarious. What if slavery was treated in the same manner as you propose, "just deal with it." Both create injustices and should be addressed. One was. Certainly, the magnitude of the injustice is grossly different, but allow me the latitude to make my point.

I wasn't born rich and don't have a legacy to back me up. No one pays my way. I succeed on my efforts, no one elses. Life is not fair. We don't all start at square one. I was taught to keep going till you succeed. You've got to have the dream, the vision. Then you can overcome any obstacle.

If you can see it, you can achieve it. Dream big.

If life knocks you down, . . . roll onto your back. If you can look up, you can get up.

 

[orthoman5000]

Originally posted by MedicinePowder
This whole bashing and stereotyping is sad.

Anyone that can show me a URM with a 21 MCAT that got into medical school will get one thousand dollars from me. Threads like these deface Latino/a and black students that have credentials equal to or greater than their entering class.

OrthoFixation,

It wasn't me who made the offer, it was Medicine Powder. I have no doubt that I could find some URM's in my school with MCAT's of 21 or lower. I could even find a white girl with a 20 who seemed to do fine in school and I even understand did fairly well on the Step 1. I'm just going to be diplomatic on this one and not go into my beliefs on the subject.

Jennifer,

Probably not the type of quotes that you were hoping for I bet.

 

[NikkiDeee]

Here is the bottom line if you know ANYTHING about admissions . . . Students are not accepted if the school thinks that they will be an academic risk just to boost their URM numbers . . . any school that does this is stupid. Because any student that does poorly (white or black or green or blue) makes the school look really bad . . . that's why most schools do all they can to help their students stay in medical school, do well, and succeed (and if your school doesn't do that for all students, then there's definately something lacking in your medical education). And, let's face it, all you people out there that think you know everything DO NOT necessarily know what makes a student an academic risk, that's why you are not in charge of medical school administration . . . let's leave that to the executive admissions committee.

I am on the admissions committee at my shool, and I have personally heard of various groups (other than URMs) that the accepted pool was lacking and gave extra weight for in order to get a preferred demographic (ie women, in state applicants, etc.). Why does no one complain about this? Is it any different? No, you have to face the fact that everyone has something different to bring to the table. Don't pretend to know what it's like to be in someone else's shoes or to know how easy or hard they have it. Because the truth is, all of you that complain how easy URMs have it, ask yourself if you had the choice whether you would trade places. I'm sure no one out there would.

 

[UCSBMed1]

Originally posted by NikkiDeee

I am on the admissions committee at my shool, and I have personally heard of various groups (other than URMs) that the accepted pool was lacking and gave extra weight for in order to get a preferred demographic (ie women, in state applicants, etc.). Why does no one complain about this? Is it any different? No, you have to face the fact that everyone has something different to bring to the table. Don't pretend to know what it's like to be in someone else's shoes or to know how easy or hard they have it. Because the truth is, all of you that complain how easy URMs have it, ask yourself if you had the choice whether you would trade places. I'm sure no one out there would.

Its sad that many of AA's critics are white women, who ironically benefit most from Affirmative Action. Of course, to them, they think that letting in a few minorities adversely affects their admissions chances. Lets face facts: affirmative action has benefitted *many* white women in this country, and now that they have pretty well reaped the benefits from it, they are joining white men in crying foul. How sad...

 

[ZigZag]

Here it comes? Everybody is bitching so much about their entitlement for a place in a medical school?etc. Why don?t you guys think about why was this system built in a first place ? to make sure we have the best healthcare system on this planet. Some people are smarter and more capable than the rest of us (I hope nobody is going to argue with that) and they should be the ones to treat patients. Do you really care about a number of melanocytes or a number of keratinocytes or a number of lymphocytes when somebody is about to operate on your kidney? I doubt it. Most likely you will try to get a ?top dog? urologist in your area to take care of you, regardless of the race or religion. Do you really care about AA when your own kidney is at stake?
My parents didn?t have any money, so I worked my way through college as a whole bunch of other white kids and never complained. If I were URM, maybe it would be easier for me financially because of all the scholarships available. We slept 5 hours a day and ate junk food for 4 years and that is how many of us got in. What about foreign graduates? Nobody makes it easy for them, and they still make it through. I say ? we don?t have enough Norwegians in med school.

 

[....]

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2003/mcatgparaceeth.htm

Facts. The AVERAGE black person gets in with stunningly lower scores. If white women were getting such a benifit you would not see sucha high number for the white matriculants. 3.66 30.2
With numbers like that and considering women are fully half of the people accepted a woman average of 3.5 and 27 (still far above minority numbers) would require a male aveage of 3.92 and 33.4 to make the average work out. Needless to say, your wrong. Black averages are a follows for accepted students. 3,38 and 24.8, compare that to the next column 3.65 and 30.7 for asians another minority and try not to feel stunned (or guilty).

Originally posted by NikkiDeee
Here is the bottom line if you know ANYTHING about admissions . . . Students are not accepted if the school thinks that they will be an academic risk just to boost their URM numbers . . . any school that does this is stupid. Because any student that does poorly (white or black or green or blue) makes the school look really bad . . . that's why most schools do all they can to help their students stay in medical school, do well, and succeed (and if your school doesn't do that for all students, then there's definately something lacking in your medical education). And, let's face it, all you people out there that think you know everything DO NOT necessarily know what makes a student an academic risk, that's why you are not in charge of medical school administration . . . let's leave that to the executive admissions committee.

I am on the admissions committee at my shool, and I have personally heard of various groups (other than URMs) that the accepted pool was lacking and gave extra weight for in order to get a preferred demographic (ie women, in state applicants, etc.). Why does no one complain about this? Is it any different? No, you have to face the fact that everyone has something different to bring to the table. Don't pretend to know what it's like to be in someone else's shoes or to know how easy or hard they have it. Because the truth is, all of you that complain how easy URMs have it, ask yourself if you had the choice whether you would trade places. I'm sure no one out there would.

 

[njbmd]

Hi there,
First of all, medical school is not a "reward" for having a high GPA and MCAT. There is is more to becoming a physician than just putting out good numbers. High grades in medical school do not equate with being a "better" physician though everyone must pass the required courses and USMLE/COMLEX steps in order to graduate and practice medicine.

Affirmative action should not have much of a role in medical school admissions in today's climate. Sure, there are ethnicities that are under-represented but being a member of those under-represented groups does not automatically ensure that you are more likely to provide medical care to the "underserved" any more than being a member of a non-URM ethnicity will insure that you will not care for the underserved. There are plenty of well-qualified (having both the GPA, MCAT and competitive extracurriculars) applicants who are from the traditional URMs out there, that any kind of automatic "set-aside" is not needed or desirable and sets a climate for reverse discrimination.

Most medical schools want students who can master a challenging curriculum and graduate. Choosing a medical student based on race alone will not guarantee the above. Discrimination of any form is unethical and immoral and has no place in admission to any institution. Every individual has the right to be judged on their merits and nothing more. A " level playing field" by definition has to be color-blind.

njbmd😎

 

[....]

No one is saying grades and MCAT are ALL that matters. But if you dont think that IN GENERAL a better gpa means a better doctor well, i dunno. That flys in the face of the zillions of studies done which corellate undergrad gpa and mcat with medical school success, studies which correlate undergrad GPA and MCAT with rates of malpractice lawsuits as well. No one is looking at 2 numbers as proof of success, but they are useful numbers, more so than any other single predictor of success and competency. And even if they WERE NOT, the fact that medschool BELIVE they are and the fact that many URMS are accepted with subpar stats if all the proff neccesary to show that URMS are getting a free leg up on their competition. Only what the deans belive is important is important in that sense. And as said before, if AA is neccesary to provide doctors to underserved ares then that aim would be better served by commital contracts open to all races.

Originally posted by njbmd
Hi there,
First of all, medical school is not a "reward" for having a high GPA and MCAT. There is is more to becoming a physician than just putting out good numbers. High grades in medical school do not equate with being a "better" physician though everyone must pass the required courses and USMLE/COMLEX steps in order to graduate and practice medicine.

Affirmative action should not have much of a role in medical school admissions in today's climate. Sure, there are ethnicities that are under-represented but being a member of those under-represented groups does not automatically ensure that you are more likely to provide medical care to the "underserved" any more than being a member of a non-URM ethnicity will insure that you will not care for the underserved. There are plenty of well-qualified (having both the GPA, MCAT and competitive extracurriculars) applicants who are from the traditional URMs out there, that any kind of automatic "set-aside" is not needed or desirable and sets a climate for reverse discrimination.

Most medical schools want students who can master a challenging curriculum and graduate. Choosing a medical student based on race alone will not guarantee the above. Discrimination of any form is unethical and immoral and has no place in admission to any institution. Every individual has the right to be judged on their merits and nothing more. A " level playing field" by definition has to be color-blind.

njbmd😎

 

[tofurious]

Folks, the OP wanted to hear what MANY people feel, not how you think other people in this post are wrong. This really reminded me of the Iowa debate, during which 80% of the air time was used to NOT address the question asked.

Here's what I feel:

The Supreme Court decision renewed the belief in the value of diversity in our higher education system, but it also indicated that this program of "undoing the wrong" should have a definite end date. I strongly believe that diversity has added value to my medical education. However, I feel that sometimes admission policies have favored diversity over adversity. There are people I know who have overcome war, poverty, abuse, racism and discrimination not covered by AA, and other types of challenges in life to knock on the door of medical education. To allocate a precious spot in a medical school class to someone who represents diversity rather than adversity speaks volumes for a value judgement I do not always agree with.

During my medical education, I also learned the term "Over-Represented Minority" (ORM). Being an ORM myself (Asian), I do not feel that I should surrender my spot in medical education in the name of number fairness. However, in order for a balance to be achieved between the URMs and ORMs, the numerical solution seems both straightforward and necessary. I do not believe that people who are smart enough to understand the science of medicine and practice the art of healing should restrict themselves to these numbers games. Creative solutions must replace strict court-driven policies to achieve diversity not only along racial lines but also individual lines.

 

[dave262]

Originally posted by NikkiDeee

I am on the admissions committee at my shool, and I have personally heard of various groups (other than URMs) that the accepted pool was lacking and gave extra weight for in order to get a preferred demographic (ie women, in state applicants, etc.). Why does no one complain about this? Is it any different? No, you have to face the fact that everyone has something different to bring to the table. Don't pretend to know what it's like to be in someone else's shoes or to know how easy or hard they have it.

Get a clue Nikki, AA makes decisions on the basis of race. Last I checked that was supposed to be what everyone in the 1960's fought so hard to get rid of. I thought they made Racism against the law??? No one ever marched through the streets of Birmingham singing to bring down discrimination on the basis of state residency.

A huge chunk of the african american population seems to forget that Martin Luther King fought and died so that men and women would be judged by the content of their character, not their skin color.

Do blacks still feel this way?

 

[lindyhop]

I think ppl should be more concerned about why there isn't a leveled playing field in the first place, and do something about that. If you're gonna help someone, you should help them early on, as early as grade school-- making sure all schools have qualified teachers and that schools provide environments that motivates all students to learn. (Of course, I realized that this is much much easier said than done. But who said this is easy?) Giving ppl a boost when applying to med school, I'd say is a bit late.

AA is only a temporary solution. It doesn't get to the root of the problem. And ppl should not focus or rely on AA as the only answer to correct past ills.

 

[NikkiDeee]

Originally posted by dave262
Get a clue Nikki, AA makes decisions on the basis of race. Last I checked that was supposed to be what everyone in the 1960's fought so hard to get rid of. I thought they made Racism against the law??? No one ever marched through the streets of Birmingham singing to bring down discrimination on the basis of state residency.

A huge chunk of the african american population seems to forget that Martin Luther King fought and died so that men and women would be judged by the content of their character, not their skin color.

Do blacks still feel this way?

First off, if you know anything about the history of AA it is not solely on race, so please don't try to make that argument because it is 100% false. Do you know anything about the advancement of many women over history in corporate america? Affirmative action at work!

Secondly, what I posted earlier from my own expereince . . . I'm telling you what I know to be FACT because I sit on the admissions committe at my school and have physically heard the following come out of the dean of admission's mouth "right now we are lacking women, in state applicants, and minorities, so that is one of our priorities." You sit where I am, hear what I have heard, and then tell me to get a clue, because you obviously haven't been through my life experiences to call me a liar. You pick and choose your battles to make what you think is a good argument but fail to see the larger picture of all of the "unfairness" that goes on.

If you are arrogant enough to pretend that you know everything that goes on behind closed doors when you clearly aren't there, your patients will quickly teach you that they do not like your arrogant know-it-all attitude.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by NikkiDeee
First off, if you know anything about the history of AA it is not solely on race, so please don't try to make that argument because it is 100% false. Do you know anything about the advancement of many women over history in corporate america? Affirmative action at work!

I would really like to know why this FACT about AA is ALWAYS so lost.

While I don't believe in AA as it is practiced today, I do believe medical schools have the right to select a diverse class of students. With the dean of a medical school stating that his school needs more women, in-state apps, and minorities, it sounds like an attempt to do just that.

 

[OrthoFixation]

Originally posted by orthoman5000
OrthoFixation,

It wasn't me who made the offer, it was Medicine Powder.

Pls excuse my misdirected statement. Medicine Powder, my offer still stands. I could use an easy $1,000. PM me if you care to back up your wager.

 

[DoctorDoom]

Originally posted by dave262
Get a clue Nikki, AA makes decisions on the basis of race. Last I checked that was supposed to be what everyone in the 1960's fought so hard to get rid of. I thought they made Racism against the law??? No one ever marched through the streets of Birmingham singing to bring down discrimination on the basis of state residency.

A huge chunk of the african american population seems to forget that Martin Luther King fought and died so that men and women would be judged by the content of their character, not their skin color.

Do blacks still feel this way?

It would appear you have no idea why AA was instituted in the first place. Your argument removes context, history from AA and appeals only to rhetoric, which renders it specious on it's face.

Ms. Zeigler:

AA is a program that affects a small number of applicants that border on the margins of an admission committee's decision making. Some white applicants will not get their first choice of schools, and as our society moves towards greater equality this will become more and more intolerable. However, the current purpose of AA and some race based admissions is to redress specific social inequities caused by racism, which then permit access to the underrepresented. The idea that AA is a problem that needs to be fixed ignores the underlying social inequity that AA was created to redress. Since our society still experiences those inequities, AA must continue to be enforced.

For a good general discussion, and specific peculiarities of AA as it applies to Asian Americans, I suggest you read Frank Wu's "Yellow"; the author expressses his thoughts far more eloquently than I can here, at this late hour.

 

[divinemsm]

.........a considerable number of these posts remind me of the importance of exercising my right to vote......Good Lord........

 

[efex101]

Have we really stopped to consider that there really is not that many URM's applying from the whole applicant pool. There were 34,786 applicants for 2003 and only 2,781 were AA and 21,345 are white. Matriculants are 16,538 and out of those only 1,077 are AA and 10,640 are white. I hear this talk and discussion that so many spots are being taken by URMs and preventing some other ORM's from getting accepted, but dang the numbers do not lie there is just not that many URM's being accepted period over the number of whites being accepted....also, the numbers for other minorities are even smaller than AA numbers. If you want to check for yourself the numbers are posted at http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/start.htm

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by efex101
Have we really stopped to consider that there really is not that many URM's applying from the whole applicant pool.

I've taken college classes during the 80's, 90's and now in the new "millenium", but the students I interact with today are by far the most obsessed with this issue of who gets into medical school and why. Given the minuscule number of URM's that even apply to medical school and are accepted, students in the 80's and 90's seemed to me to be more willing to take a look in the mirror and assume responsibility for their academic successes and failures instead of blaming AA.

 

[ckent]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
I've taken college classes during the 80's, 90's and now in the new "millenium", but the students I interact with today are by far the most obsessed with this issue of who gets into medical school and why. Given the minuscule number of URM's that even apply to medical school and are accepted, students in the 80's and 90's seemed to me to be more willing to take a look in the mirror and assume responsibility for their academic successes and failures.

Actuially, in the late 80's and early 90's, getting into med school was probably at it's most competetiveness. It's kind of sad to see all those applicants who did well but couldn't get in back then, because they would have no trouble getting in now. I think that the acceptance rate is ~50% these days. That's really not a bad ratio if you think about it, because if you factor out all the re-applicants and people just applying for the heck of it, your chances of getting into a medical school is probably 80-100% depending on your numbers alone.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by ckent
Actuially, in the late 80's and early 90's, getting into med school was probably at it's most competetiveness.

You're absolutely right, but the ORM people I knew that were applying back then didn't whine and complain about AA. They went to grad school, became a paramedic, retook the MCAT, ect. ect.

 

[mpp]

Perhaps just as many people complained but you didn't see it since there wasn't an anonymous public forum for complaining as there is now. There have been many people on both sides of the AA argument for as many years as it has existed.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
You're absolutely right, but the ORM people I knew that were applying back then didn't whine and complain about AA. They went to grad school, became a paramedic, retook the MCAT, ect. ect.

And I left out that they were all successful getting into Law School, Medical School, and Grad School. They way I see it, successful people have very little to complain about.

Even on SDN, I don't think I've EVER read a post the said "I'm an ORM with a 38T MCAT, 3.8 GPA, great EC's/research experience, but I didn't get into Harvard becasue of an URM with lower stats". It appears to be the "mediocre" ORM applicants doing most of the complaining.

 

[tofurious]

I don't even feel like replying to your posts knowing your track record, but pathdr2b's use of ORM is very annoying and offensive. It epitomizes the unsubstantiated sense of entitlement many URMs carry around with them that gets on people's nerves.

Do you propose that we cut down the number of qualified Asian American students accepted so you can achieve the quota in a supposedly quota-free system? How about the Middle Easterners? Maybe they shouldn't be accepted into med school at all because their number overall is not high enough to constitute 1% of the population?

It is one thing to say that certain groups are grossly underrepresented and encourage their participation, but it's quite another to label another group OVERrepresented to make them the solution of all URM's problems. You probably didn't invent the term, but of all race groups you ought to know what it means to perpetuate the term.

Perhaps ORM groups should empower themselves and "take back" the term ORM with slogans such as "So what? We are overrepresented and you can't do anything about it."

*after posting of this email, pathdr2b PMed me and here's my response*

I didn't PM you because 1) I don't feel like it and 2) your publicly offensive remarks demanded a public response. I posted here on behalves of the "ORMs" who don't think their presence in medical schools and medical careers should be challenged.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by tofurious
but pathdr2b's use of ORM is very annoying and offensive.

I believe the term ORM or Over Represented Majority represents the fact that the percentage of certain groups in medical school exceeds that in the general population. For example, African Americans comprise ~12% on the US population yet represent less than 10% of medical school matriculants.

 

[tofurious]

And from the sound of that, I am hearing you say that you would like to see fewer Asian Americans, Middle Eastern Americans, and East European Americans in medical school. I am sure others will suddenly question whether they as non-URMs represent an obstacle that needs to be overcome in your quest to achieve the ultimate quota system.

 

[me109cito]

I think AA benefits more than just URM's. After all, if only qualified applicants were admitted to med school, the number of asians, middle easterners and east indians would soar and less whites would be admitted.
I am sure there are members of these three ethnic groups with superior stats than whites, yet more whites are admitted with lower stats. Could we say that these folks are then being discrimated against in favor of less qualified white folks?