race in admissions

[efex101]

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Tofurios 6,219 Asians applied and 3,087 matriculated so that is about the same average as the other groups.

 

[DoctorDoom]

Originally posted by me109cito
Could we say that these folks are then being discrimated against in favor of less qualified white folks?

Actually that's exactly what is going on. The Asian applicants are being "discriminated" against. AA is not applied to benefit white applicants. I think this is why Tofurious is... furious 🙂 Asian Americans are considered ORM and so when it comes to them, the AA opponents throw the argument of "positions for the best qualified applicants" and say well there are just "too many of them." Poor and underpriveleged Asian American applicants are not benefiting from AA, but get hosed both ways. It is a conundrum unique to Asian Americans.

Me109... nice... I'm a FW190D fan myself...

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by tofurious
And from the sound of that, I am hearing you say that you would like to see fewer Asian Americans, Middle Eastern Americans, and East European Americans in medical school.

You CONSISTENTLY hear me say what I'm frequently NOT saying because you ALWAYS prejudge what ever I say before reading my posts. No worry, you're in great compnay when it comes to my posts 🙄

 

[ice_23]

I think also alot of the beef that "ORM's" have is that, although the top echelon of "ORM's" may have superior stats, they sometimes don't get even interview invites to many top schools because of their race. I have seen many a 40+, 3.8 and above east-asian/asian indian applicant rejected pre-interview from the harvard/hopkins/stanford/yale caliber schools, whereas a URM with similar stats sometimes receives a letter from the respective deans of diversity to apply to said schools.

This is not to say that these "ORM's" SHOULD whine about their status, this is just to say that for some of those stellar candidates, I can understand the agony of the process, especially for those that grew up poor/underprivileged like many URM's.

-Ice

 

[Gleevec]

Ive been looking at some stats from USNews.com, where they give you the student body breakdown. I looked at the top 20 schools and it seemed on average that 30-40% of the students were Asian (I get this figure by taking the minority percentage and subracting out the URMs, is this a valid operator? It seems as if Asians would be the predominant group that would remain).

Thats not bad at all, though there are a lot of other factors at play.

 

[OrthoFixation]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
You CONSISTENTLY hear me say what I'm frequently NOT saying because you ALWAYS prejudge what ever I say before reading my posts. No worry, you're in great compnay when it comes to my posts 🙄

Funny, this is what I heard you say:

Given the minuscule number of URM's that even apply to medical school and are accepted, students in the 80's and 90's seemed to me to be more willing to take a look in the mirror and assume responsibility for their academic successes and failures instead of blaming AA.

I haven't seen a post in this thread with a non-URM stating "A URM took MY spot." The issue at hand is the unequal and preferential treatment. Consider admissions, scholarships, special tutoring classes, etc. Where does it ever end? Wasn't AA preference in undergrad enough to level the field? Since you advocate preferences in professional/graduate school, why stop there? Why don't you advocate lower USMLE scores and BC criteria for URMs?

You're absolutely right, but the ORM people I knew that were applying back then didn't whine and complain about AA. They went to grad school, became a paramedic, retook the MCAT, ect. ect.

Why is this course of action acceptable for a non-URM but not for URMs? Yet another double standard.

 

[....]

Originally posted by efex101
but dang the numbers do not lie there is just not that many URM's being accepted period over the number of whites being accepted....also, the numbers for other minorities are even smaller than AA numbers. If you want to check for yourself the numbers are posted at http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/start.htm

The sheer numbers are not the problem. Would slavery be ok if there were only 2000 slaves? nope. Fair is fair is fair. If you get in because of your race it aint fair. Whether 100-10K unqualified people get in does not change the ethics of it.


AA is a program that affects a small number of applicants that border on the margins of an admission committee's decision making. Some white applicants will not get their first choice of schools,

Given how huge the descrepancy is between blakc averages and asian averages i would say a huge number of people are affected. Not only would 75% of black students not get in who otherwise would have, many white kids would get passed up as well in favor of asians (and rightfully so)

It is silly to assume that only one person is affected when an underqualified person gets in. Everytime harvard lets an URM in with a 3.4 they send another kid a rejection letter, but the kid (being good enough to go to harvard) then goes to secdon teri school X and school X rejects another guy who goes then to third tier school Y and school Y rejects a kid who never gets in. Many people can all be hurt and some lose their med career all together.

Tofurios 6,219 Asians applied and 3,087 matriculated so that is about the same average as the other groups.

But given that their numebrs are in another leauge as URM numbers the fact that they are accepted at equal rate is in fact proof of disrimination.

Any white guy or girl who understands how race impacts the admission proccess knows that whitews have little if anything to gain by making the procces blind. The extra spots from underqualfied URMS will be taken by Asians are who will benifit, the people who deserve it.

 

[Entei]

.

 

[tofurious]

The intention of this thread was to get the MEDICAL STUDENTS' opinions on the Supreme Court decision on AA. I put down my opinion, and I simply didn't want some pre-med (no matter how old) telling me that me being OVERREPRESENTED is a crime because she is underrperesented.

In fact, I plan on working towards helping or RALLYING my overrepresented pre-meds and med students down the road, so that their presence is never questioned or sacrificed. People who are med students in this thread are not complaining that someone took THEIR spot. But we all personally know someone else whose spot was taken, and we will only know more such people if the system remains in its current form. What's more, we see the danger of letting extremists in the door in the name of equity as they will only perpetuate the notion of an eye for an eye. I don't know how other people feel, but I certainly felt that a man sitting in my med school class wearing the Million Men March shirt was as offensive as a man going to class in a giant white hood.

 

[care bear]

how in the world is a million man march shirt offensive?
i may not agree with farrakhan on a lot of things but the march was a positive thing; it was about unity and building up the community. how is that threatening or wrong?

people in white hoods *killed people*, how can you even make a comparison??

 

[dave262]

The damage minorities receive because of having AA around is enormous. In spite of all the handy dandy arguments people can think of, it IS racism, and it will only breed anger and more racism. In the back of their mind, when Dr. Bubba from arkansas wants to hire a new doc to jump into his group practice, hes going to know that certain groups entered this profession unqualified.

Selection should be based on academic potential, character, and on the likelyhood of practicing in underserved areas.

I'm not trying to poke anyone here, I just think that all patients would be better served by admission based on non-racial designations.

now I know people are going to come back with the "what about the culture of your patients issue!" I'm a white guy - a black guy did my LASIK, an asian guy delivered me (long ago) and my PCP is a middle eastern guy. Culture can be learned, ask any FMG.

For those URMs out there who would have gotten into med school without AA, you are doing yourself and your race a disservice by supporting reverse discrimination, which will only breed reverse-reverse discrimination.

For those you URMs who would not be in med school without AA, stay in this forum and fight for it like a champ, for it is your bread and butter.

...oh, and enough of the personal attacks, I value the opinions even of those i disagree with. Do no harm eh?

 

[divinemsm]

Life isn't fair. Deal with it. We do.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Entei
Whining about it now isn't going to do anything for you but make you sound like... well, honestly it makes you sound like someone who probably didn't deserve the spot .............

To Whom iT May Concern....................

Diversity has a place in America and diversity in medicine is in my mind a no brainer.

I like having choice in the physicians I select. I like my Internist from India, my african american dermatoligist (From Harvard Med, BTW😉, and my caucasion FEMALE OB/Gyn.

 

[....]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
To Whom iT May Concern....................

Diversity has a place in America and diversity in medicine is in my mind a no brainer.

I like having choice in the physicians I select. I like my Internist from India, my african american dermatoligist (From Harvard Med, BTW😉, and my caucasion FEMALE OB/Gyn.

As long as your ok with the sacrifice in quality. It would be a statistical imposibility for the most academicaly comptent 16K people applying to med school each year to have a numbe rof women and minorities(URM and asians) be in the same proportion as the general population. Statisticaly imposible. The most diverse class will never be the most competent class.

 

[DoctorDoom]

Originally posted by hightrump
As long as your ok with the sacrifice in quality. It would be a statistical imposibility for the most academicaly comptent 16K people applying to med school each year to have a numbe rof women and minorities(URM and asians) be in the same proportion as the general population. Statisticaly imposible. The most diverse class will never be the most competent class.

That "sacrifice in quality" assumes that undergraduate grades and one single exam (MCAT) equates with long term clinical or academic success in medicine. A ridiculous proposition. Even medical school success is not necessarily a predictor until the clinical years. Your "sacrifice in quality" is a shallow illusion.

Admission committees have the discretion, and I personally believe, that diversity is a greater strength than just having the highest grade earners. In its relevance to AA, whose purpose is diversity and to provide the underpriveleged access (with the a priori understanding that they have lower numbers), the point is that the tests and numbers are ultimately of secondary importance to the person, and societal needs, as a whole.

 

[mpp]

I definitely understand the importance of providing 'the underpriveleged' access (which I assume you mean both access to healthcare and access to a good education). My question is what does this have to do with diversity and AA...I don't understand that connection. Does diversity = skin color? Or does diversity just mean people from different backgrounds? To you, what does diversity mean? Once that is defined I would like to know what the specific advantages of ensuring it is?

 

[....]

Originally posted by Shinken
If Harvard decided one day that they want to admit only students that have a black mole in their chins, it's their decision.

Truly you have lost your mind. "we dont want any jews in our country" "We dont want blacks in our nice white people bathrooms" "what do you mean its unethical? Its out choice right?
"

Right?

WRONG.

 

[Shinken]

Originally posted by hightrump
Truly you have lost your mind. "we dont want any jews in our country" "We dont want blacks in our nice white people bathrooms" "what do you mean its unethical? Its out choice right?
"

Right?

WRONG.

Yes, I've lost my mind. I didn't realize that AA and what the Jews and Blacks went through were equivalent. My bad.

(I always get sucked into these stupid threads. Bye...)

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Yes, just like if Harvard decided one day that they want to admit only white students...it?s their decision. It's not like there are laws that prohibit racial discrimination. And it's like not racial discrimination is morally wrong or anything. Discrimination by race is as trivial as discrimination by facial moles.

 

[....]

Originally posted by Shinken


Yes, I've lost my mind. I didn't realize that AA and what the Jews and Blacks went through were equivalent. My bad.

(I always get sucked into these stupid threads. Bye...)

Your argument was not an AA specific one. You said basicaly "They can let in who ever they want for whatever reason" You illustrated this by your "mole prefence" scenario. This logic fails becuase it is the same logic people used to argue dozens of other crappy ideas, such as segratation. If this was not the case then what respone could you give for a reasturant owner saying "We dont serve Blacks here"? By your argument he should be able to chose anyone for any reason, after all its his place. Of course he should not have that right because your agrument is crappy. Even in the private sector racial descrimintion (against black people at least) is illegal.

 

[dread]

I'm going to laugh if I see any of these comments being posted on the board quoted in the next issue of AMSA.

 

[Pre-Dent-David]

A few of the pro-aa things might get into AMSA assuming the thread creator is not a fraud. Anti-aa will probably not make the cut though as a previous poster mentioned.

 

[care bear]

you know, it's so funny that so many of the whites on this thread seem to have the very same 'victim mentality' that they are very quick to accuse blacks of having.

it's this mentality of 'whine, i'm being discriminated against- whine, the us is racist(lol!) - whine, our remarks won't be published b/c 'the man' has turned against us. . '

well, as you all know the strongest people in life don't spend time mired in their victim status if they can at all help it. my father sure didn't spend time whining about the discrimination he received as he tried to attend a newly integrated school in NC growing up. no, he got all As and became competitive with his classmates.

whether you are white or black, Asian, Latino, Native American, if you have a victim mentality you will not go as far as if you had been able to get that attitude out of your mind.

so be careful with the whining. it's 'playing with fire', and it can only hurt yourself.

i am firmly convinced that life is NOT fair. and only pampered people expect it to be. is it fair that most of us were born here, in this country, into relative affluence compared with much of the world? no.
i personally happen to think that AA is fair. however, if you do or don't it really doesn't matter. unless something is obviously and directly holding you back personally (and i think no one can really say that about AA), you move on.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Yes, I agree. These white people should just shut up, stop whining and go sit in the back of the admissions bus.

 

[care bear]

how can you even make a comparison???

it's so ludicrous.

well then, i await and welcome your firm, determined, active stand against the 'injustice' of affirmative action.
(talking on a message board doesn't count. )

until then. . .move on, move on, move on.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

I will. As soon as you tell me how a person asking not to be judged upon the color of his skin makes him a "whiner".

Is it unreasonable for people to ask to not be subjected to discrimination on the basis of race under any program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance?

 

[Auricae]

No matter what you say, a medical class full of only whites and Asians would be a tragedy (and I speak as a south asian - an ORM). The voices and influence of URM are important, both in serving the population and in helping to direct the course of the medical field.

Personally, I do not feel comfortable allowing only white and asian people determine the future of medicine, because I know their perspective will be biased and incomplete. Even if diversity is not important from a purely clinical perspective, it is essential from a political and social one. For the medical profession to best serve the population as a whole, we need decision-making physicians that represent all segments of this population, so every voice can be heard.

As an Asian, I can only wonder why so many people "whine" about AA. Just looking at the numbers, the overwhelming majority of matriculants are still white and asian. What you are asking is to eliminate the small percentage of URM so even MORE whites and asians can be admitted.

Do you really think the medical profession gains more from the added diversity of this small percentage of URM or from having a few more white/asian's who you argue are more "qualified?" People who argue that this diversity is not important enough to save seem to not understand or appreciate diversity. If they did, they may be less inclined to dissolve it.

 

[Auricae]

I'm sorry ahead of time if anyone already posted this info, but I wanted to point out some numbers. This is from the AAMC Facts:

For 2003, there were 21,345 white matriculants.

Compare this to the 2,781 blacks or 102 American Indian.

The number of spots given to URM is pretty small.

 

[....]

Originally posted by Auricae
I'm sorry ahead of time if anyone already posted this info, but I wanted to point out some numbers. This is from the AAMC Facts:

For 2003, there were 21,345 white matriculants.

Compare this to the 2,781 blacks or 102 American Indian.

The number of spots given to URM is pretty small.

Thats because the are a small percentage of the population. You want it half and half?

Tell all of the stuff from you earlier post to the asian kid with a 3.7 and a 33 who gets rejected in favor of the URM with a 3.2 and a 22. The injustice is not seen on the large scale, its seen when you think of the individuals.

 

[cali23]

Why do people worry about this stupid ****.

Personally, u cant correct over one hundred years of missed opportunities and societal abuse in 30 years (the time our country has tried to give people of color equal rights) so we are working on it.

Stop bitching! Worry about u'reselves. Life's not always fair. Sure aa is not perfect. But honestly, what is a better alternative? If you have one, mail the senate and maybe they'll take a look at it.

 

[cali23]

and i do think aa should be restructured because i hear asian males have the hardest time getting into med schl. which is not fair because they are minorities as well.

 

[Auricae]

Originally posted by hightrump
Thats because the are a small percentage of the population. You want it half and half?

Tell all of the stuff from you earlier post to the asian kid with a 3.7 and a 33 who gets rejected in favor of the URM with a 3.2 and a 22. The injustice is not seen on the large scale, its seen when you think of the individuals.

I am a south asian male with a 3.7 and a 33T as a matter of fact. I got into multiple medical schools.

Also, I didn't say I wanted it half and half. I was just indicating that the people who complain that their spots are being taken by URM are most likely wrong. More likely is that there spot is being taken by a more qualified white or asian applicant (statistically speaking).

And you're right, it is about individuals. The asian kid with a 4.0 and a 40 mcat might get rejected because he is a science geek who has little EC and nothing but good grades to offer. At the same time, an URM is not getting into medical school with a 3.2 gpa and a 22 mcat solely on the race card. It is one of many, many factors. Race is not getting anyone into medical school alone, just like gpa, mcat, EC, rec letters, personal statements, financial status, etc. by themselves cannot get you an acceptance.

Medical schools will only admit people who they believe can succeed at their school. Even if they do admit an URM with the above statistics, if the individual cannot handle the rigor of medical school, he WILL fail out and not become a physician. So although race may help you get INTO medical school, it is no guarantee that it will get you an MD.

I guess my ultimate point is, I have no problem with allowing URM to have an edge with regards to race. I remember at one of my group interviews, I was interviewing against an african-american woman. I didn't feel threatened at all. If I had been another bland asian number-pumping machine, then I would have been worried. But I wasn't. I knew that her race was just one thing they would consider among many things. Yes, she had an edge on me there, but I had an edge on her in many other areas. To make a long story short, I got the acceptance and she didn't.

Race is ONE factor. Not the ONLY factor.

 

[BiggMann79]

Her article was in this months issue, but where were all the quotes from this thread?🙂

 

[Heal&Teach]

I assume that some of the folks in this thread (myself included) did not respond to her private message asking her to send their contact information and photographs.

 

[LukeWhite]

Does anyone have a copy of the article that can be posted?