Racism in adcoms: something I hear over and over again

[jyust]

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One poster posted in another thread:

"OP, I think it is pretty ridiculous to think that racism exists in the application process........I have realized that there is a negative correlation between racism and education level. The majority of the adcoms are very educated people. Thus, I would assume that the majority of adcoms are not racist."

I am an ABD in Sociology, which means I am close to getting a PhD in the field. My experiments have shown that

- There is a POSITIVE correlation between racism and education level, which means educated people are more racist than uneducated people. (This does not mean that education makes a person racist. Rather it means that racist individuals choose to get an education).
- Students and faculty at Ivy League and elite schools are a LOT MORE racist than those from the lower-tier schools.
- Canadians are MUCH MORE racist than Americans.

Rather than explain the details of my experiment, I will show you a mini-experiment you can do yourself on your campus for less than $50.

1) Make two sets of stamped envelopes addressed to your P.O. Box.
2) Address one set of at least 30 envelopes to White names like "John Smith" or Mary Smith"
3) Address second set of at least 30 envelopes to ethnic names of your choice like "Li Xeng", "Habib Bin Laden", "Balarama Subramanium," "Yeong Chang Chu," "Ismail Mullah Abdullah" etc.
4) Randomly leave these stamped envelopes on your campus or on student cars or faculty cars (with a handwritten note that says "found this near your car, maybe it's yours?". All envelopes have your post box address on them.
5) See how many envelopes addressed to White and ethnic names you get back.

Here were my results:

At an Ivy League university, envelopes left on faculty cars in faculty parking lot identified by faculty parking sticker:
87% of letters addressed to White names found their way back to my p.o. box
No letter addressed to ethnic names reached my p.o. box

At a very small pre-dominantly White community college whose name none of you would have heard:
89% of "White" letters were returned
82% of letters addressed to ethnic names were returned.

Experiments elsewhere (Elite college versus unknown college) report somewhat similar results. Any errors cancel each other out since we're comparing White versus Ethnic.

Added later: I encourage you to run this experiment and see the results for yourself.

 

[schrizto]

I'm not going to get into the race debate here, but I would criticize the experiment proposed in the post. Where you leave an envelope matters, because if you leave an envelope on the front steps of the library vs on a student's car it creates a different likelihood of the envelope being returned. The envelope in front of the library would be passed over by many people, while the envelope on someone's car's likelihood would really depend only on the probability of one person deciding to return the envelope or not.

Even if someone got the results you describe, you can't jump to the conclusion that it was due to racism. I also think the ethnic names you used as examples don't really sound like actual ethnic names.

 

[RadioCure]

Although someone could potentially argue against both your findings and the overall trend you're supporting, I think it would be very naive to think there is no racism in the admissions process.

It doesn't stop at racism, though. Your age, face, height, voice, name, beard-growing potential, and amount you look like that one guy who always used to pick on the adcom in high school all contribute on subconscious (or even conscious) levels. This isn't even including things like how the weather is when you have an interview or whether your interviewer's wife slept with him the night before.

The whole thing is full of factors outside of our control. All you can do is suck it up and go for it.

 

[Evergrey]

- There is a POSITIVE correlation between racism and education level, which means educated people are more racist than uneducated people. (This does not mean that education makes a person racist. Rather it means that racist individuals choose to get an education).
- Students and faculty at Ivy League and elite schools are a LOT MORE racist than those from the lower-tier schools.
- Canadians are MUCH MORE racist than Americans.

Those seem like premature conclusions...

 

[RadioCure]

I'm not going to get into the race debate here, but I would criticize the experiment proposed in the post. Where you leave an envelope matters, because if you leave an envelope on the front steps of the library vs on a student's car it creates a different likelihood of the envelope being returned. The envelope in front of the library would be passed over by many people, while the envelope on someone's car's likelihood would really depend only on the probability of one person deciding to return the envelope or not.

Even if someone got the results you describe, you can't jump to the conclusion that it was due to racism. I also think the ethnic names you used as examples don't really sound like actual ethnic names.

The point of his experiment was to test professors and faculty members. That's why they were placed on windshields - to select for education level and membership in an academic arena somewhat similar to adcoms. I'm not saying it's a great or conclusive experiment though.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

One poster posted in another thread:

"OP, I think it is pretty ridiculous to think that racism exists in the application process........I have realized that there is a negative correlation between racism and education level. The majority of the adcoms are very educated people. Thus, I would assume that the majority of adcoms are not racist."
Well psychologically this is something we can't help. If your familiar with many psychodynamic experiement's you'll figure out that we unconsciously do have bias's. In many experiments we see that white children ( ages 3-5) unconsciously favor lighter skinned children. So unfortunately there's just nothing we can do about this.

I am an ABD in Sociology, which means I am close to getting a PhD in the field. My experiments have shown that

- There is a POSITIVE correlation between racism and education level, which means educated people are more racist than uneducated people. (This does not mean that education makes a person racist. Rather it means that racist individuals choose to get an education).
- Students and faculty at Ivy League and elite schools are a LOT MORE racist than those from the lower-tier schools.
- Canadians are MUCH MORE racist than Americans.
Source.

Rather than explain the details of my experiment, I will show you a mini-experiment you can do yourself on your campus for less than $50.

1) Make two sets of stamped envelopes addressed to your P.O. Box.
2) Address one set of at least 30 envelopes to White names like "John Smith" or Mary Smith"
3) Address second set of at least 30 envelopes to ethnic names like "Li Xeng", "Habib Bin Laden", "Bala Rama Subramanium," "Yeong Chang Chu," "Ismail Mullah Abdullah" etc.
4) Randomly leave these stamped envelopes on your campus or on student cars or faculty cars. All envelopes have your post box address on them.
5) See how many envelopes addressed to White and ethnic names you get back.

Here were my results:

At an Ivy League university, envelopes left on faculty cars:
87% of letters addressed to White names found their way back to my p.o. box
No letter addressed to ethnic names reached my p.o. box

At a very small community college whose name none of you would have heard:
89% of "White" letters were returned
82% of letters addressed to ethnic names were returned.

Again, what's your point. Psychologically we all have our bias's, however to say that these bias's are racist is a stretch. Umm, I must say that your experiment is quite graphic and does make a point.

Again, this experiment might be truly informative. However I want to see your samples. If there is a correlation between education and racism, why is racism so prevalent within the lower classes?
Is this maybe because you left your letters in area's which are improper and have a biased sample( questionare's bias)? There are other factors which might have skewed the data.
So again, this data has a face value reliability. However unless you can reproduce and show the same or similar data. Then this is just anecdotal and invalid evidence.

 

[schrizto]

The point of his experiment was to test professors and faculty members. That's why they were placed on windshields - to select for education level and membership in an academic arena somewhat similar to adcoms. I'm not saying it's a great or conclusive experiment though.

It doesn't sound like that from the description, since it mentioned "on your campus or on student cars or faculty cars." Besides, how do you know for sure if a car belongs to faculty, a student, or someone unaffiliated with the university?

 

[chman]

Also, it would be useful to run this at multiple universities. Universities in general are very liberal places... However, some of the elite ones don't have the best track record on this issue...

 

[rxlea]

Perhaps it has to do with SES rather than race...many experiments I have read have concluded as such. An educated person might look down on someone because of their (lack of) education or SES, not because of their ethnicity. Since minorities TEND to be of a lower SES, then you could easily draw that correlation. You can make all sorts of correlations but nothing of this nature proves causation. The question is, what are your ideas on confronting this issue?

 

[teddy bear doc]

Anecdotally -- which is what your "study" essentially was -- I would make the argument that there isn't a correlation between education and racism. Of the two most racist people I have ever met, one had a PhD, and the other didn't graduate from high school and was frequently seen shirtless, drunk, and handcuffed to a lawn chair in his front yard (he was my neighbor -- for like 5 seconds).

I agree with you though that race can play a factor in admissions, perhaps especially depending on where you apply. And while I think it's great that you are trying to quantify racism among the educated, I'm pretty sure your "test" wouldn't hold up under scrutiny.

For example, I would not return the envelope no matter who it was addressed to. Depending on my day, I would either (a) crumple it up without looking at it because it bugs the heck out of my when my car gets flyer-ed, (b) be suspicious and not return it because of I don't know this person, so why is an envelope addressed to them on my car (?), or (c) are there actually mailboxes around anymore? I never see them, and sending the letter would probably entail making a trip to the post office. In that case, the letter would probably get into my car, get lost under the seat, I would forget to go to the post office, and I would find the envelope 4 months later covered with Cheerios from my kids and coffee from that one time I spilled it all over myself on the way to school. My point is that not sending the envelope doesn't necessarily make someone racist, it could make them busy, suspicious, irritated, or any combination thereof.

 

[Narmerguy]

One poster posted in another thread:

"OP, I think it is pretty ridiculous to think that racism exists in the application process........I have realized that there is a negative correlation between racism and education level. The majority of the adcoms are very educated people. Thus, I would assume that the majority of adcoms are not racist."

I am an ABD in Sociology, which means I am close to getting a PhD in the field. My experiments have shown that

- There is a POSITIVE correlation between racism and education level, which means educated people are more racist than uneducated people. (This does not mean that education makes a person racist. Rather it means that racist individuals choose to get an education).
- Students and faculty at Ivy League and elite schools are a LOT MORE racist than those from the lower-tier schools.
- Canadians are MUCH MORE racist than Americans.

Rather than explain the details of my experiment, I will show you a mini-experiment you can do yourself on your campus for less than $50.

1) Make two sets of stamped envelopes addressed to your P.O. Box.
2) Address one set of at least 30 envelopes to White names like "John Smith" or Mary Smith"
3) Address second set of at least 30 envelopes to ethnic names of your choice like "Li Xeng", "Habib Bin Laden", "Balarama Subramanium," "Yeong Chang Chu," "Ismail Mullah Abdullah" etc.
4) Randomly leave these stamped envelopes on your campus or on student cars or faculty cars. All envelopes have your post box address on them.
5) See how many envelopes addressed to White and ethnic names you get back.

Here were my results:

At an Ivy League university, envelopes left on faculty cars:
87% of letters addressed to White names found their way back to my p.o. box
No letter addressed to ethnic names reached my p.o. box

At a very small community college whose name none of you would have heard:
89% of "White" letters were returned
82% of letters addressed to ethnic names were returned.

Please explain the actual details of your experiment. Your mini experiment leaves many holes and thus why so many responders seem to take issue with your findings.

 

[Penner]

Racist against what races? Racist against URMs? We all know URMs are given a nice boost in the admissions process. Racist against non-white non-URMs? That's definitely possible, but unlikely if you look at the statistics of those admitted. Asians on average have to have slightly higher stats to get in, and URMs can have slightly lower stats and still get in, but that's about it.

 

[smarttee88]

Although someone could potentially argue against both your findings and the overall trend you're supporting, I think it would be very naive to think there is no racism in the admissions process.

It doesn't stop at racism, though. Your age, face, height, voice, name, beard-growing potential, and amount you look like that one guy who always used to pick on the adcom in high school all contribute on subconscious (or even conscious) levels. This isn't even including things like how the weather is when you have an interview or whether your interviewer's wife slept with him the night before.

The whole thing is full of factors outside of our control. All you can do is suck it up and go for it.

👍

 

[JBomb]

Of course there is racism in admissions processes. If you are a white student you have to have a higher GPA and a higher MCAT score than a non-white student in order to be considered for admission. It's called Affirmative Action and it has been going on for decades.

 

[Cyradis]

There's official racism in the admissions process... it's called AA. AA for URM is pretty solid racism in the form of reverse discrimination. I don't know whether people on this forum don't really talk about it because they just accept it as part of the app process and deal with it, or they support it, but it's a little silly to get excited about potential racism in the admissions committees when we already know for certain there is racism in the process anyways.

I'd be curious as well to know the real/full results of the OP's study. I'm going to agree with everyone else here that the mini-experiment he proposed has a lot of holes, although it's an interesting idea. Then again, that's why it's a mini-experiment for $50, and not a $100,000 study conducted over a year or something.

I'm going to go ahead and guess that the reason for the discrepancy you'd observe with the letters is one of familiarity, not overt racism. People recognize names like "John" but not so much "Xeng". I'd bet if you put foreign sounding white names (say.... Per Mertesacker, yes I just picked a random football player's name) or something, you'd get the same result as "Li Xeng". Perhaps community colleges have greater racial diversity so people are more used to it? (Totally guessing, I don't know what CCs are like where you're from. The local CC near where I live is a hotspot for international students who couldn't make it into a western university though so it makes sense from my point of view)

Wonder what would happen if you did something like "John Masimov" or something - i.e. familiar first name but unfamiliar last.

P.S. To whoever said the foreign names don't sound like real names - with the exception of "Balarama Subramanium" (of which I'm unsure), they are all perfectly viable names.

 

[lorenzomicron]

Is this paper published somewhere? Might I have the citation to read it?

 

[dbeast]

Am I the only one who find's OP's experiment interesting?

Obviously it's not perfect, but regardless of methods, 87% compared to zero is still pretty crazy.

 

[jyust]

Try this experiment instead. It's free, you won't even have to spend $50.

Have 10 White volunteer students. Get each of them to drop a pile of books accidentally. Do this 10 times at random places and random times on campus when people are around.

Similarly, have 10 Black students drop the books accidentally, again 10 times.

See how many people help.

My results:

Ivy League campus:
Whites received help in picking up their books 48% of the time
Blacks and other minorities were helped 0% of the time.

Unknown community college (largely White) campus:
Whites received help in picking up their books 83% of the time
Blacks/minorities were helped 77% of the time.

Remember, errors cancel out since you're looking at comparative results. Use common sense, i.e. don't use very attractive Asian girls, or very tall Black athletes, scantily-dressed White girls, etc.

Added later: Do this on your campus and report the results here.

 

[JokerMD]

asdf

 

[riverjib]

One poster posted in another thread:

"OP, I think it is pretty ridiculous to think that racism exists in the application process........I have realized that there is a negative correlation between racism and education level. The majority of the adcoms are very educated people. Thus, I would assume that the majority of adcoms are not racist."

I am an ABD in Sociology, which means I am close to getting a PhD in the field. My experiments have shown that

- There is a POSITIVE correlation between racism and education level, which means educated people are more racist than uneducated people. (This does not mean that education makes a person racist. Rather it means that racist individuals choose to get an education).
- Students and faculty at Ivy League and elite schools are a LOT MORE racist than those from the lower-tier schools.
- Canadians are MUCH MORE racist than Americans.

Rather than explain the details of my experiment, I will show you a mini-experiment you can do yourself on your campus for less than $50.

1) Make two sets of stamped envelopes addressed to your P.O. Box.
2) Address one set of at least 30 envelopes to White names like "John Smith" or Mary Smith"
3) Address second set of at least 30 envelopes to ethnic names of your choice like "Li Xeng", "Habib Bin Laden", "Balarama Subramanium," "Yeong Chang Chu," "Ismail Mullah Abdullah" etc.
4) Randomly leave these stamped envelopes on your campus or on student cars or faculty cars (with a handwritten note that says "found this near your car, maybe it's yours?". All envelopes have your post box address on them.
5) See how many envelopes addressed to White and ethnic names you get back.

Here were my results:

At an Ivy League university, envelopes left on faculty cars in faculty parking lot identified by faculty parking sticker:
87% of letters addressed to White names found their way back to my p.o. box
No letter addressed to ethnic names reached my p.o. box

At a very small pre-dominantly White community college whose name none of you would have heard:
89% of "White" letters were returned
82% of letters addressed to ethnic names were returned.

Experiments elsewhere (Elite college versus unknown college) report somewhat similar results. Any errors cancel each other out since we're comparing White versus Ethnic.

Added later: I encourage you to run this experiment and see the results for yourself.

Seriously??? TROLL!!! I don't care what race you are, you're annoying. Blah.

 

[lorenzomicron]

once again, where's this paper?

 

[mdbound1987]

There's official racism in the admissions process... it's called AA. AA for URM is pretty solid racism in the form of reverse discrimination. I don't know whether people on this forum don't really talk about it because they just accept it as part of the app process and deal with it, or they support it, but it's a little silly to get excited about potential racism in the admissions committees when we already know for certain there is racism in the process anyways.

I'd be curious as well to know the real/full results of the OP's study. I'm going to agree with everyone else here that the mini-experiment he proposed has a lot of holes, although it's an interesting idea. Then again, that's why it's a mini-experiment for $50, and not a $100,000 study conducted over a year or something.

I'm going to go ahead and guess that the reason for the discrepancy you'd observe with the letters is one of familiarity, not overt racism. People recognize names like "John" but not so much "Xeng". I'd bet if you put foreign sounding white names (say.... Per Mertesacker, yes I just picked a random football player's name) or something, you'd get the same result as "Li Xeng". Perhaps community colleges have greater racial diversity so people are more used to it? (Totally guessing, I don't know what CCs are like where you're from. The local CC near where I live is a hotspot for international students who couldn't make it into a western university though so it makes sense from my point of view)

Wonder what would happen if you did something like "John Masimov" or something - i.e. familiar first name but unfamiliar last.

P.S. To whoever said the foreign names don't sound like real names - with the exception of "Balarama Subramanium" (of which I'm unsure), they are all perfectly viable names.

You and JBomb are obviously have no idea what you are talking about. AA and URM status are two completely different things. AA accounts for something that occurred in the past and the school's attempt to take this into consideration in terms of how it affects that person in present-day life. URM status is given so that there will be more diversity in medicine because certain minority races need more physicians of the same race. Also, there is much to be said for diversity in medical school because non-urms can learn from urms how to better understand/relate to urm patients. These minority future physicians don't complain that they (even if URM status didn't exist) will have to be twice as proficient as all their white, asian, indian, etc. colleagues in order to gain the same amount of respect as a physician. This is the world we live in, so they just deal with it. This also answers your question of why a lot of people here don't talk about it much...because it's a reality, so just deal with it.

 

[aDreamer]

You and JBomb are obviously have no idea what you are talking about. AA and URM status are two completely different things. AA accounts for something that occurred in the past and the school's attempt to take this into consideration in terms of how it affects that person in present-day life. URM status is given so that there will be more diversity in medicine because certain minority races need more physicians of the same race. Also, there is much to be said for diversity in medical school because non-urms can learn from urms how to better understand/relate to urm patients. These minority future physicians don't complain that they (even if URM status didn't exist) will have to be twice as proficient as all their white, asian, indian, etc. colleagues in order to gain the same amount of respect as a physician. This is the world we live in, so they just deal with it. This also answers your question of why a lot of people here don't talk about it much...because it's a reality, so just deal with it.

👍

"American physicians and Hispanic American physicians are three to five times more likely to establish their practices in African American or Hispanic American communities"

"Sullivan, who once served as secretary of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, says minority physicians see a higher percentage of patients with either no insurance, or covered by Medicaid, the government insurance program for low-income Americans."

"It will be decades before our health care system truly mirrors the makeup of our general population"

Source: http://www1.voanews.com/english/new...orities-and-Non-Hispanic-Whites-86580847.html

The last point says the most I think. How can you say that's right? Medicine is an elitist profession and has been for a long time. Just look at the average family income of a medical student, or the racial composition of the field. URMs (as well as those of low SES--which is correlated with URM status) are so far from equality, (in both representation in medicine and, more importantly, health outcomes) alleged "white disadvantage" is a tough thing to sympathize with--especially when you compare that relative "disadvantage" to the overwhelming health, social and economic disparity, disadvantage and burdens shouldered by URMs as a whole. So you demand URM numbers to be equal to whites? Make them equal to whites in the eyes of our society first....in the mean time, please wake up.

 

[schrizto]

Try this experiment instead. It's free, you won't even have to spend $50.

Have 10 White volunteer students. Get each of them to drop a pile of books accidentally. Do this 10 times at random places and random times on campus when people are around.

Similarly, have 10 Black students drop the books accidentally, again 10 times.

See how many people help.

My results:

Ivy League campus:
Whites received help in picking up their books 48% of the time
Blacks and other minorities were helped 0% of the time.

Unknown community college (largely White) campus:
Whites received help in picking up their books 83% of the time
Blacks/minorities were helped 77% of the time.

Remember, errors cancel out since you're looking at comparative results. Use common sense, i.e. don't use very attractive Asian girls, or very tall Black athletes, scantily-dressed White girls, etc.

Added later: Do this on your campus and report the results here.

Didn't you say at the beginning that you were quoting another user? This makes it sound like you're the one coming up with all this stuff instead.

 

[schrizto]

btw, I just copied a sentence from the first post and searched it on Google. This is the only thread that comes up. Likely a troll.

 

[Hoody]

troll.

seems like this is the only word that pre allos know latley.

 

[Hoody]

Seriously??? TROLL!!! I don't care what race you are, you're annoying. Blah.

and so are you.

it was your choice to enter this thread. and every other thread that you've posted TROLL!1!1!one!eleventy!! in.

🙄

 

[schrizto]

seems like this is the only word that pre allos know latley.

because of the high number of threads on race and ridiculous situations currently on the first page of pre-allo. It actually took quite a while for "troll" to appear in this thread and I'm surprised it wasn't earlier.

 

[Hoody]

because of the high number of threads on race and ridiculous situations currently on the first page of pre-allo. It actually took quite a while for "troll" to appear in this thread and I'm surprised it wasn't earlier.

and now that its been said, 30 more pre meds will need to come in here and repeat it.

awesome.

 

[schrizto]

and now that its been said, 30 more pre meds will need to come in here and repeat it.

awesome.

 

[Narmerguy]

btw, I just copied a sentence from the first post and searched it on Google. This is the only thread that comes up. Likely a troll.

I doubt he actually repeated what they said verbatim.

 

[jyust]

btw, I just copied a sentence from the first post and searched it on Google. This is the only thread that comes up. Likely a troll.

Chemdude said this on http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=731163

 

[jyust]

Am I the only one who find's OP's experiment interesting?

Obviously it's not perfect, but regardless of methods, 87% compared to zero is still pretty crazy.

You may be one of the very few on this forum who is not a racist. Research has shown that people who are quick to deny anti-Semitism are usually anti-Semites and those who are quick to deny racism are usually racist.

Since we are comparing White versus Ethnic return rates in the mini-experiment, possible errors cancel each other out.

It is difficult to measure racism by giving people questionnaires to fill out since people disguise their behaviors. But if you use experiments like the two min-experiments I outlined above, racism becomes evident (e.g. 87% for Whites versus 0 for minorities). There are many such innovative experiments you could design. I found that the Ivy Leagues and Elite universities are full of racist individuals. Especially their faculty. Medical school faculty are almost always racist, as are medical school students. But nothing beats Canadian universities - they have been the most racist of all. But there is good news:

I also found that predominantly-White areas in America's rural societies are nearly devoid of racism. Ironically, Whites in the stereotypical "red neck" areas (e.g. deep rural South) tend to be very tolerant of minorities.

Don't take my word for it: design an experiment yourself and find out firsthand.

 

[LizzyM]

Lost-letter experiments are decades old and there are too many variables unrelated to the type of campus that could explain the findings including the population density around the campuses and the availability of post boxes.

Also, Ivy-league professors may be aware of these lost-letter experiments and may throw the stuff out just to mess with you.

What's an ABD in Sociology doing here as a "pre-med". Also rather interesting what you choose to post as your first post on sdn.

 

[metallica81788]

Jyust, are you an alter to the user gofer? Y'all both seem to be talking about the same things and involving experiments/research with it.

It seems like you two are the same people.

 

[morning]

Your experiments are too small to prove anything, but they are interesting. And I think your conclusion might be valid, as well.

I've known several black people (to focus on one race) who have said that they found the Northeast MORE racist than the south and private universities MORE racist than state universities.

Even if the community college you chose was predominantly white, they almost certainly have more experience with non-white people than an Ivy League university kid who grew up in a gated community, went to private schools and then ended up at a private university on his/her way towards investment banking. Many non-white races still lag behind white people economically and education-wise, and poorer white people will be more exposed to them...and possibly more sympathetic because they know what it's like.

An entirely different train of thought: over how long a time frame did you leave these letters, and which ethnicity was first? If one faculty member told another about it and it keeps happening to many people, word is going to get around and no one is going to take your letters seriously.

 

[jyust]

Lost-letter experiments are decades old and there are too many variables unrelated to the type of campus that could explain the findings including the population density around the campuses and the availability of post boxes.

Also, Ivy-league professors may be aware of these lost-letter experiments and may throw the stuff out just to mess with you.

What's an ABD in Sociology doing here as a "pre-med". Also rather interesting what you choose to post as your first post on sdn.

I used 21 different kinds of experiments, not the lost letter method. The results are similar.

The lost letter was used only in my teaching - when I taught undergraduate students. It was a hands-on exercise for them. I don't like that method myself but students can do it very easily.

I am applying to the MD/PhD program myself.

 

[jyust]

Jyust, are you an alter to the user gofer? Y'all both seem to be talking about the same things and involving experiments/research with it.

It seems like you two are the same people.

Interesting that you should ask that. Gofer is my neighbor!! And the one who made me aware of this forum.

 

[AlexB]

Anecdotally -- which is what your "study" essentially was -- I would make the argument that there isn't a correlation between education and racism. Of the two most racist people I have ever met, one had a PhD, and the other didn't graduate from high school and was frequently seen shirtless, drunk, and handcuffed to a lawn chair in his front yard (he was my neighbor -- for like 5 seconds).

I agree with you though that race can play a factor in admissions, perhaps especially depending on where you apply. And while I think it's great that you are trying to quantify racism among the educated, I'm pretty sure your "test" wouldn't hold up under scrutiny.

For example, I would not return the envelope no matter who it was addressed to. Depending on my day, I would either (a) crumple it up without looking at it because it bugs the heck out of my when my car gets flyer-ed, (b) be suspicious and not return it because of I don't know this person, so why is an envelope addressed to them on my car (?), or (c) are there actually mailboxes around anymore? I never see them, and sending the letter would probably entail making a trip to the post office. In that case, the letter would probably get into my car, get lost under the seat, I would forget to go to the post office, and I would find the envelope 4 months later covered with Cheerios from my kids and coffee from that one time I spilled it all over myself on the way to school. My point is that not sending the envelope doesn't necessarily make someone racist, it could make them busy, suspicious, irritated, or any combination thereof.

Is he the one providing anecdotal evidence, or are you, based on the two examples of you provide?

I've personally never heard of this experiment, although it is very interesting. While extraneous factros such as population density etc. might influence the results, the chance that these factors occur applies equally to everyone being tested. I think this experiment would have validity only if you increased the sample size from 30 to let's say 500.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Your experiments are too small to prove anything, but they are interesting. And I think your conclusion might be valid, as well.

I've known several black people (to focus on one race) who have said that they found the Northeast MORE racist than the south and private universities MORE racist than state universities.

Even if the community college you chose was predominantly white, they almost certainly have more experience with non-white people than an Ivy League university kid who grew up in a gated community, went to private schools and then ended up at a private university on his/her way towards investment banking. Many non-white races still lag behind white people economically and education-wise, and poorer white people will be more exposed to them...and possibly more sympathetic because they know what it's like.

An entirely different train of thought: over how long a time frame did you leave these letters, and which ethnicity was first? If one faculty member told another about it and it keeps happening to many people, word is going to get around and no one is going to take your letters seriously.

A very interesting point of view. Exposure is a key role in desensitization of things like race and religion. So of course the person who's never actually met a black man and only seen rappers on t.v might have a negative bias against them. Then lets say someone who grew up with black people next door.

 

[jyust]

Even if the community college you chose was predominantly white, they almost certainly have more experience with non-white people than an Ivy League university kid who grew up in a gated community, went to private schools and then ended up at a private university on his/her way towards investment banking.

Researchers in general have found that casual contact with other races actually makes people MORE racist.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

maybe ivy leaguers are too fcking busy to be bothered. considered that?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Researchers in general have found that contact with other races actually makes people MORE racist.

I actually doubt that. Limited contact might, but I'm very sure there's a exponential increase with heightened exposure. . But if you look at psychological methods (such as CBT) of treating improper thinking/cognition, exposing people to things they don't like usually changes thinking and desensitizes them.

 

[Cyradis]

URM status is given so that there will be more diversity in medicine because certain minority races need more physicians of the same race. Also, there is much to be said for diversity in medical school because non-urms can learn from urms how to better understand/relate to urm patients. These minority future physicians don't complain that they (even if URM status didn't exist) will have to be twice as proficient as all their white, asian, indian, etc. colleagues in order to gain the same amount of respect as a physician. This is the world we live in, so they just deal with it. This also answers your question of why a lot of people here don't talk about it much...because it's a reality, so just deal with it.

Your differentiation between AA and URM is well-taken, although IMO the principle is fairly similar.

All you're really doing is justifying the racism.... I'm not suggesting there aren't good reasons for granting URMs favorable status or that URM physicians won't be more likely to help under-served communities, etc. but all of those are simply reasons to justify why racism in this case could be a good thing. I'm not saying it's racist to say we should change it, but rather trying to point out that there is racism there. Denying that racism is there just because you support it is pretty silly. You can't have a blanket belief that racism is bad and treat racism as being bad in all cases when you support AA or URM status.

I won't get into the argument of whether AA/URM status is justified as that's an entirely different argument altogether =/

 

[wagmanager]

Anecdotally -- which is what your "study" essentially was -- I would make the argument that there isn't a correlation between education and racism. Of the two most racist people I have ever met, one had a PhD, and the other didn't graduate from high school and was frequently seen shirtless, drunk, and handcuffed to a lawn chair in his front yard (he was my neighbor -- for like 5 seconds).

I agree with you though that race can play a factor in admissions, perhaps especially depending on where you apply. And while I think it's great that you are trying to quantify racism among the educated, I'm pretty sure your "test" wouldn't hold up under scrutiny.

For example, I would not return the envelope no matter who it was addressed to. Depending on my day, I would either (a) crumple it up without looking at it because it bugs the heck out of my when my car gets flyer-ed, (b) be suspicious and not return it because of I don't know this person, so why is an envelope addressed to them on my car (?), or (c) are there actually mailboxes around anymore? I never see them, and sending the letter would probably entail making a trip to the post office. In that case, the letter would probably get into my car, get lost under the seat, I would forget to go to the post office, and I would find the envelope 4 months later covered with Cheerios from my kids and coffee from that one time I spilled it all over myself on the way to school. My point is that not sending the envelope doesn't necessarily make someone racist, it could make them busy, suspicious, irritated, or any combination thereof.

same here, I would not make a trip to the post office for the express purpose of posting a letter to someone i do not even know

 

[mdbound1987]

Researchers in general have found that casual contact with other races actually makes people MORE racist.

Ohhh so that's why med schools (and every other profession/academic setting) promote diversity (URMs) in their students...so whites, asians, indians, etc. can be less understanding of URMs/URM patients and become even more racist then they already were (assuming they were racist to begin with). Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Fail.

 

[Cyradis]

Researchers in general have found that casual contact with other races actually makes people MORE racist.

Though I won't dismiss the statement out-right since many counter-intuitive beliefs are later proven by objective study... if you're going to make a statement like this you have to back it up with evidence or no one will believe you. i.e. send a publication link.

Personally in my experience I actually have found this statement to be somewhat true though... so maybe that's why I'm less willing to dismiss it.

Edit: Just found an interesting paper on the subject xD going to skim it and post it if it's relevant.

 

[eablackwell]

More fun and less controversial, try having someone in a wheelchair drop books. 100% help rate 😉 I once ran out ofgas on a busy street and as soon as I got my wheelchair out of the car it was tire-squealing traffic accident style. 4 cars pulled over to help.

Anyway, in all seriousness, racism happens pretty much everywhere. It sucks 🙁 I agree that this experiment is flawed, although I probably would stick a letter in my mailbox with the flag up if I found it, hopefully regardless of the name.

 

[mdbound1987]

Your differentiation between AA and URM is well-taken, although IMO the principle is fairly similar.

All you're really doing is justifying the racism.... I'm not suggesting there aren't good reasons for granting URMs favorable status or that URM physicians won't be more likely to help under-served communities, etc. but all of those are simply reasons to justify why racism in this case could be a good thing. I'm not saying it's racist to say we should change it, but rather trying to point out that there is racism there. Denying that racism is there just because you support it is pretty silly. You can't have a blanket belief that racism is bad and treat racism as being bad in all cases when you support AA or URM status.

I won't get into the argument of whether AA/URM status is justified as that's an entirely different argument altogether =/

I don't see it as racism and my point isn't to try to change your mind because you're going to believe what you want and that's fine. I do not see it as racism because it is used to improve the healthcare arena. It can only lead to positive results and these results are necessary in medicine. The number one priority in the medical field is the patients, not non-URMs concern about being slighted in the application process. If URM status as a practice helps more URM patients go to the doctor regularly, trust doctors, etc.., this is all that matters. There are so many URM patients who refuse to go to the doctor regularly because in their words, "they do not trust white people." It is much more common than you think. Of course if there is an emergency, they are forced to go the E.R., but that is an enitrely different situation...life or death. Non-URMs act as if URMs take up so many of their seats. Honestly, URMs, in terms of medical school seats, in some schools do not even represent the number of seats that would correspond to their % representation in this country. On average, URMs may take up 20 seats in a class of 180, which is 11% of the class. In this country, URMs make up 29% of the population. So you're telling me that it is unfair when URMs make up less than half of their representation in this country when it comes to med school seats? The only group that takes up way more seats than their representation in this country are asians. So for you to complain about the 20 seats URMs take in order to improve the healthcare profession, it doesn't make sense.

 

[morning]

Interesting that you should ask that. Gofer is my neighbor!! And the one who made me aware of this forum.

OIC.