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If facility is getting a flat rate for a case, a Vmat 5 fraction plan requires less time for almost everyone - doctor, RTT, planner. There’s additional QA for physics, but with stuff like Mobius, it’s easy. In the same amount of time, you can now treat 3x the breast patients. How is this not a slam dunk for APM sites?
If your time is the limiting factor for your consults, this is true. But I'm not getting any more patients because I treat them faster. Cost savings are not going to pass through to me other than to the degree that hospital balance sheet keeps them comfortable with our PSC. Hospital will let people go (therapists and potentially nurses) if volume on machines falls below a certain level. If machines are operating for a smaller time window, therapists will be sent home early.

So I may be costing someone a job or at least partial salary.

Of course, if our PSC is renegotiated, we will be reducing hours/salary among ourselves and putting pressure on part timers to reduce days worked further.

I'm not seeing how incentives are enough to push me to 5 fraction whole breast if I don't really think it's equivalent (of course it's almost certainly equivalent in terms of cancer control) to moderate hypofractionation in terms of long term cosmesis. I'll 5 fraction partial in appropriate patients but will counsel regarding likely small difference in local control long term (trials were not designed to measure small differences in local control, which in ER+ disease will increase in time).
 
The extra cost to a clinic from 16 vs 5 fractions is in three places as far as I can tell.

1. Nominal depreciation of machine
2. Staffing costs
3. Personal time costs for OTV

These all seem pretty nominal to me
I think we might have differing opinions of what's "nominal" 😬 ... both on our side of the equation and the patients' side
There’s additional QA for physics, but with stuff like Mobius, it’s easy
Per-patient QA is only necessary to meet a wording requirement for IMRT billing. It will disappear on a per-patient basis in APM 😬😬

There exists a few (many?) well known academic centers who already flaunt this "rule" (hint: residents, you can make a lot of money on this!)
 
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If your time is the limiting factor for your consults, this is true. But I'm not getting any more patients because I treat them faster. Cost savings are not going to pass through to me other than to the degree that hospital balance sheet keeps them comfortable with our PSC. Hospital will let people go (therapists and potentially nurses) if volume on machines falls below a certain level. If machines are operating for a smaller time window, therapists will be sent home early.

So I may be costing someone a job or at least partial salary.

Of course, if our PSC is renegotiated, we will be reducing hours/salary among ourselves and putting pressure on part timers to reduce days worked further.

I'm not seeing how incentives are enough to push me to 5 fraction whole breast if I don't really think it's equivalent (of course it's almost certainly equivalent in terms of cancer control) to moderate hypofractionation in terms of long term cosmesis. I'll 5 fraction partial in appropriate patients but will counsel regarding likely small difference in local control long term (trials were not designed to measure small differences in local control, which in ER+ disease will increase in time).
2-3 less OTVs per patient, too. In Livi, there wasn’t any difference in LR/IBTR. Small difference? Even if 2-3% absolute difference at 10 years, I don’t think that would be practice changing - maybe, though ?
 
2-3 less OTVs per patient, too. In Livi, there wasn’t any difference in LR/IBTR. Small difference? Even if 2-3% absolute difference at 10 years, I don’t think that would be practice changing - maybe, though ?
No I agree, it's a small difference (although I suspect in a patient with a 20+ year life expectancy, absolute difference may approach 6%). Also important to note the 5mm margin requirement. (Not that I believe margin itself reduces recurrence but rather that when you select for patients with large margins, these are patients with low likelihood of multifocal or more disseminated disease).

The less OTVs? I think I'm just having a hard time coming to terms with what I will be becoming. Our practice has the highest patient satisfaction scores and three weeks of love is remembered more than one. Patients will appreciate the short time under treatment, but they will also consider the excellent service that radonc provides less in their total assessment of the cancer center.

Less time with patients, less revenue, less indications.

...eventually less staff, less value to the hospital.

Focus will be on efficiency. This is not what I do well.
 
No I agree, it's a small difference (although I suspect in a patient with a 20+ year life expectancy, absolute difference may approach 6%). Also important to note the 5mm margin requirement. (Not that I believe margin itself reduces recurrence but rather that when you select for patients with large margins, these are patients with low likelihood of multifocal or more disseminated disease).

The less OTVs? I think I'm just having a hard time coming to terms with what I will be becoming. Our practice has the highest patient satisfaction scores and three weeks of love is remembered more than one. Patients will appreciate the short time under treatment, but they will also consider the excellent service that radonc provides less in their total assessment of the cancer center.

Less time with patients, less revenue, less indications.

...eventually less staff, less value to the hospital.

Focus will be on efficiency. This is not what I do well.
I’m not saying this is good. It is what it is.
 
One of local radoncs (freestanding) routinely does 45 / 25 fx intact breast followed by boost
Well of course, it's obviously necessary to keep daily fractions at 180 cGy to minimize toxicity. It's basic radiobiology!

On that note, 225 cGy/day for T1 larynx causes too much laryngeal edema! BID is the way to go.

Now, just wait till I tell y'all how we treat tuberculosis...
 
One of local radoncs (freestanding) routinely does 45 / 25 fx intact breast followed by boost
1/3 got it as of several years ago.


I know that boomers around me still treat at 1.8 day for everyone outside of the population where evilcore mandates it. Unfortunate because it's actually a better treatment with better data than standard frac
 
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Good g..d. What could this do to physics job market? Of course the few catastrophes that this saves on a national level will never be "statistically" meaningful.
Focus will be on efficiency. This is not what I do well.
I have a very (surprise!) contrarian view on IMRT QA. The short answer is: it has never saved a catastrophe. (Or, at least, no one can prove that it ever saved a catastrophe/prevented a disaster.) As I sip coffee this weekend, the long answer is...

In the early days of IMRT QA, each individual field would be port filmed on X-ray film just like the old light box-able port films of old. The physicist would make a dot-matrix-y grayscale print, scaled to 1:1 port film size, of the fluence. The film would be viewed side by side with this and/or superimposed over the print off on the light box. It was all visual analysis. The IMRT field either passed the eyeball test or it didn't. I can't recall a time that a field ever did not pass the eyeball test.

If you're comparing a film "printed" by the linac versus a field printed by a printer, the linac is analogous (analogous to me, anyways) to a color inkjet printer. (In the old days an IMRT parlor trick was to make a port film of Einstein's face, or anybody's face, e.g.) The linac "sprays" dose into the patient just like an inkjet printer sprays ink onto a piece of paper. In the treatment planning system, we see a dose distribution; on the linac, we try to recreate that dose distribution as close as possible in real life. If you are working with a color photograph on a computer screen and want to print it out, you want the colors on the printout to match the computer screen as much as possible. However the screen and printer have different "gamuts." It is very interesting, and seemingly entirely coincidental, that the word gamut comes from a combination of the words "gamma" and "ut" (from music) and that the IMRT QA process looks at a "gamma."

At some point all physicists abandoned the aforementioned subjective eyeball test in favor of the objective gamma. You know how physicists are: subjectivity makes them very uncomfortable. Using the printer analogy, a catastrophe would be if you were printing a picture of a zebra and instead the printer gave you a picture of an ostrich. However sometimes the images we create on screen are far outside the printer's gamut and when you print that zebra you notice the stripes are dull grey and just blah looking. This can be a catastrophe, too, if you are super anal retentive about image quality. Or maybe a red bird on-screen looks pink off the printer... total catastrophe if you're hanging the picture in a gallery. When you take a treatment plan and "print" it on the linac, a disaster would be if you got wholly different fluences than the ones you see on screen. But, very rarely, you can make a plan which is outside the linac's "gamut." And it will fail the gamma. To a very anal retentive physicist, this is a catastrophe.

But failing gamma is arbitrary (and ironically subjective). One can choose more permissive, or more stringent, values in the gamma analysis to make gamma pass versus fail. All of the choices physics makes in gamma analyses have been arrived at WHOLLY detached from any clinical outcomes. From my viewpoint, a gamma fail plan might lead to increased local control versus decreased local control in a patient. We just don't know. We have never tested gamma in ANY clinically rigorous fashion. EVER.

When you print a picture of a zebra, you never get an ostrich (unless there's been severe user error). When you run gamma analysis of an IMRT plan for a zebra, the analysis never shows ostrich. It occasionally shows the zebra's stripes are not the right color or a little mis-aligned. If there's a clinical reason to do IMRT QA on every IMRT plan, there's a clinical reason to do QA on every 3DCRT plan with electronic wedges (who uses real wedges anymore?). But of course no one is doing QA on every 3DCRT plan. The large academic centers that stopped doing IMRT QA on every IMRT plan did so for the same reason that it would get boring, and be inefficient, to check for ostriches on zebra printouts.
 
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But failing gamma is wholly arbitrary.
IMRT QA is fairly arbitrary and I agree with your description of reducing a matrix of numbers to a single number or parameter, which is appealing cognitively to most people. (I try to convince my RTTs that the skin surface alignment is just thousands of SSDs graphically presented to you in roughly real time, but they still want that port film.)

I completely agree that IMRT QA does not confirm if your plan is really delivered. It confirms that the shape of your dose distribution roughly resembles what you see on the computer.

However, IMRT QA will reveal catastrophic eff-ups. That open port IMRT plan that was in the NYT expose from around 2010 would have been caught with IMRT QA prior to fraction 1.

 
However, IMRT QA will reveal catastrophic eff-ups. That open port IMRT plan that was in the NYT expose from around 2010 would have been caught with IMRT QA prior to fraction 1.
Maybe. But actually NO NO NO lol. The therapists should always be watching the screen. If they see the leaves are not moving from the first second the beam comes on then "Houston we have a problem" and emergency beam shut off. This is an example of printing off a picture of a zebra and getting ostrich. You don't *need* IMRT QA to catch that, you just need to watch the printout as it's coming off the printer. You can tell zebra from ostrich before the whole picture prints.

Interesting tidbit on the author of that article. A family member of his had cancer, got RT at a Manhattan institution, and he felt they had a lot of side effects and bad outcomes, and he went very Don Quixote on the windmill of radiotherapy for a time.
 
Maybe. But actually NO NO NO lol. The therapists should always be watching the screen. If they see the leaves are not moving from the first second the beam comes on then "Houston we have a problem" and emergency beam shut off. This is an example of printing off a picture of a zebra and getting ostrich. You don't *need* IMRT QA to catch that, you just need to watch the printout as it's coming off the printer. You can tell zebra from ostrich before the whole picture prints.
That's true, but the purpose of a safety net is not to save those who catch themselves. It's to save those who don't.
 
You can tell zebra from ostrich before the whole picture prints.
I'll take the physicists printing out the whole Zebra, wondering why the zebra looks weird and then reprinting again before failing a plan without a patient on the table any day over real time saves by RTT.

Hypothetically, leaves could be moving in a radically wrong manner, outside of the window of human intuition that something is effed up, and this would be revealed with present IMRT QA.
 
That's true, but the purpose of a safety net is not to save those who catch themselves. It's to save those who don't.
IMRT QA is not a safety net. I again say it has never been shown to increase IMRT safety. Before IGRT, IMRT patients were put on beam with no imaging analysis. No one ever questioned that. The ones that did were doing port films EVERY DAY. That was a little overboard but I could see the rationale behind it.... and...

Hypothetically, leaves could be moving in a radically wrong manner,
... if we *really* wanted to be safe, and if this was an actual worry, we would run the IMRT QA before every delivered fraction. Because, you know, "hypothetically."

EDIT
I think the number #1 malpractice case in rad onc is WBRT without a tissue diagnosis. I think #2 is wrong site treatment. IMRT QA is as helpful as playing pickup sticks with your butt cheeks in these situations (who else watched Planes Trains Automobiles this weekend)
 
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EDIT
I think the number #1 malpractice case in rad onc is WBRT without a tissue diagnosis.
According to, well, almost everyone I work with, I'm "overthinking it" by asking for tissue confirmation in non-urgent cases.

However, I think even my secretaries can quote the 11% stat from Patchell, so perhaps I've attained some sort of pyrrhic victory.
 
I think the number #1 malpractice case in rad onc is WBRT without a tissue diagnosis. I think #2 is wrong site treatment. IMRT QA is as helpful as playing pickup sticks with your butt cheeks in these situations
You are spot on. But, safety is about redundancy and preventing rare events. Much more likely that wrong patient will get treated with a plan or RTT will not shift back appropriately after imaging than there will be a glitch in sending the plan to the machine in the first place. Although the latter is exactly what happened in the NYT article.
 
If your time is the limiting factor for your consults, this is true. But I'm not getting any more patients because I treat them faster. Cost savings are not going to pass through to me other than to the degree that hospital balance sheet keeps them comfortable with our PSC. Hospital will let people go (therapists and potentially nurses) if volume on machines falls below a certain level. If machines are operating for a smaller time window, therapists will be sent home early.

So I may be costing someone a job or at least partial salary.

Of course, if our PSC is renegotiated, we will be reducing hours/salary among ourselves and putting pressure on part timers to reduce days worked further.

I'm not seeing how incentives are enough to push me to 5 fraction whole breast if I don't really think it's equivalent (of course it's almost certainly equivalent in terms of cancer control) to moderate hypofractionation in terms of long term cosmesis. I'll 5 fraction partial in appropriate patients but will counsel regarding likely small difference in local control long term (trials were not designed to measure small differences in local control, which in ER+ disease will increase in time).

I’m in the APM and I’m not planning on changing 5fx breast. You want a short course. Just do APBI with external. If the patients have a problem with that then I’ll just do whelan. And if they have a problem with that…then they can go to an exempt center where they can treat them 5fx and charge more than my center would for 16.
 
EDIT
I think the number #1 malpractice case in rad onc is WBRT without a tissue diagnosis. I think #2 is wrong site treatment. IMRT QA is as helpful as playing pickup sticks with your butt cheeks in these situations (who else watched Planes Trains Automobiles this weekend)
Really? Usually would consent heavily for that or lung SBRT without a dx, and morbidity doesn't tend to be huge.

I'm guessing wrong site tx or an excessive toxicity are the tops
 
Really? Usually would consent heavily for that or lung SBRT without a dx, and morbidity doesn't tend to be huge.

I'm guessing wrong site tx or an excessive toxicity are the tops
does anybody have any actual info re radonc med mal? would love to see specifics of how average cases go. details re cases of giving 80 gy to the cord in a single fx aren't tremendously useful. i'd be interested to see how a wbrt without tissue dx played out.
 
does anybody have any actual info re radonc med mal? would love to see specifics of how average cases go. details re cases of giving 80 gy to the cord in a single fx aren't tremendously useful. i'd be interested to see how a wbrt without tissue dx played out.

There was that one from Canada a few years ago. Turns out they were abscesses in the brain and not mets. They sued because she was dealing with cognitive issues after the whole brain.
 
does anybody have any actual info re radonc med mal? would love to see specifics of how average cases go. details re cases of giving 80 gy to the cord in a single fx aren't tremendously useful. i'd be interested to see how a wbrt without tissue dx played out.
 
Both. Here’s the article:


When I searched to find this one, I ran across a couple of others that were similar
yuck. looks like a single treatment was blamed for long-term cognitive dysfunction in a lady with a bunch of brain abscesses... Either way, bad call to treat.
 
yuck. looks like a single treatment was blamed for long-term cognitive dysfunction in a lady with a bunch of brain abscesses... Either way, bad call to treat.
Agreed, reading the article it sounds like she only received a single (probably 3 Gy) fraction, and it would be extraordinarily unlikely the long term sequelae were due to that vs oh I dunno, her brain being filled with abscesses?

But I agree, bad call to treat. The article makes it sound like she was quickly deteriorating and the docs felt the need to provide rapid intervention. "Rapid" and "radiation therapy" generally have a low correlation coefficient.

We must never forget the @Palex80 Weekend Litmus Test: if an urgent Friday consult comes in, and you don't treat on Friday, and they die over the weekend - they were going to die that weekend whether or not they got radiation.

I actually just got off the phone with my therapists about this very issue. Heaven and Earth were moved to provide rapid peri-holiday treatments for a patient, as well as a weekend treatment. I was grabbing my car keys to head in when I was informed the patient had passed. It was probably worth moving Heaven and Earth from the standpoint of making the staff and family feel like we were making a difference, but from an objective, physiologic standpoint, urgent radiation, yet again, accomplished nothing.
 
No I agree, it's a small difference (although I suspect in a patient with a 20+ year life expectancy, absolute difference may approach 6%). Also important to note the 5mm margin requirement. (Not that I believe margin itself reduces recurrence but rather that when you select for patients with large margins, these are patients with low likelihood of multifocal or more disseminated disease).

The less OTVs? I think I'm just having a hard time coming to terms with what I will be becoming. Our practice has the highest patient satisfaction scores and three weeks of love is remembered more than one. Patients will appreciate the short time under treatment, but they will also consider the excellent service that radonc provides less in their total assessment of the cancer center.

Less time with patients, less revenue, less indications.

...eventually less staff, less value to the hospital.

Focus will be on efficiency. This is not what I do well.
My understanding is the issue with APM in some locales is losing staff. Hospital will notice significantly less fractions and less hours. They will start asking questions like are all these rad oncs needed? Are all these physicists, nurses, PAs, therapists, etc needed? Seems to be fear about a downward spiral about stripping of department by admins because of perception of declining numbers. They are not going to care to understand you are doing fast fw just that they see “less patients”. This is why departments in APM will continue to avoid the shorter regimens, continue to do OTVs on all, continue strict supervision to basically keep people employed and their depts well staffed. The field is facing an absolute race to the bottom. I will say it again, save your money heavily, things will continue to get worst folks!
 
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My understanding is the issue with APM in some locales is losing staff. Hospital will notice significantly less fractions and less hours. They will start asking questions like are all these rad oncs needed? Are all these physicists, nurses, PAs, therapists, etc needed? Seems to be fear about a downward spiral about stripping of department by admins because of perception of declining numbers. They are not going to care to understand you are doing fast fw just that they see “less patients”. This is why departments in APM will continue to avoid the shorter regimens, continue to do OTVs on all, continue strict supervision to basically keep people employed and their depts well staffed. The field is facing an absolute race to the bottom. I will say it again, save your money heavily, things will continue to get worst folks!


this is more of a concern for hospital based departments living on the high hog (extra PAs, extra therapists) than free standing community practices that run lean. free standing centers will see this as a reason to cut staff costs, not a punishment, necessarily, from that perspective.
 
this is more of a concern for hospital based departments living on the high hog (extra PAs, extra therapists) than free standing community practices that run lean. free standing centers will see this as a reason to cut staff costs, not a punishment, necessarily, from that perspective.
Just think. A freestanding center could become a Bone Met Center of Excellence under APM. One fraction for everyone.

1) See 10 new bone met cases a week...
2) Number of patients under beam per day will be *2*.
3) Consults 8-9AM. Treat 9AM-930. Do a little extra work, go home by 11AM.
4) Gross revenue per year will be ~$3.5 million (get $6940 per bone met, global, under APM). To me $6940 ain't bad for a day's work. And $13880 especially not bad. I could see MD take home being $0.8-1 million (more?) if he/she really, really runs lean.

VERY far-fetched. But conceivable. And especially if virtual direct supervision comes to pass, maybe the "crisis" to bring about a Palliative Radiation Therapy Network for the academic centers wasn't COVID... it was APM.
 
Just think. A freestanding center could become a Bone Met Center of Excellence under APM. One fraction for everyone.

1) See 10 new bone met cases a week...
2) Number of patients under beam per day will be *2*.
3) Consults 8-9AM. Treat 9AM-930. Do a little extra work, go home by 11AM.
4) Gross revenue per year will be ~$3.5 million (get $6940 per bone met, global, under APM). To me $6940 ain't bad for a day's work. And $13880 especially not bad. I could see MD take home being $0.8-1 million (more?) if he/she really, really runs lean.

VERY far-fetched. But conceivable. And especially if virtual direct supervision comes to pass, maybe the "crisis" to bring about a Palliative Radiation Therapy Network for the academic centers wasn't COVID... it was APM.
The promised land is close.... Just need about 60-70 training spots a year....
 
Maybe evidence of smarter hospitalists and medical oncologists who know that emergent inpatient radiation is typically useless...

Naaaaaa

I disagree with this pretty strongly.

I've treated SVC syndrome patients, emergently, as inpatients, who are now alive several years later and NED. I've treated spinal cord compression, emergently, as inpatients, and the patients did regain their ability to ambulate. I've treated patients on Friday evening, emergently, as inpatients, to help get their pain under control so they could be discharged over the weekend, and it worked.

Do all emergent inpatient consults do well? Of course not, they're in the hospital for a reason, and consideration of emergent RT is never a good sign. However, at least in my experience, to say there is never any value to emergent inpatient radiation, or that it is typically "useless" is false.
 
I've treated SVC syndrome patients, emergently, as inpatients, who are now alive several years later and NED.
I am not saying that emergent SVC syndrome is or is not a current ABR OLA question. Of the multiple choices that may or may not be possible in such a hypothetical situation, where this question may or may not be seen, emergent RT is not the right answer (in such a purely hypothetical scenario).
 
I am not saying that emergent SVC syndrome is or is not a current ABR OLA question. Of the multiple choices that may or may not be possible in such a hypothetical situation, where this question may or may not be seen, emergent RT is not the right answer (in such a purely hypothetical scenario).
This probably won't surprise you, but I really don't give a flying f____ at the moon about what ABR has to say about anything.
 
I've treated SVC syndrome patients, emergently, as inpatients, who are now alive several years later and NED. I've treated spinal cord compression, emergently, as inpatients, and the patients did regain their ability to ambulate
This probably won't surprise you, but I really don't give a flying f____ at the moon about what ABR has to say about anything.
Noted lol. But in an ideal world as rad oncs we should be pushing for emergent surgery for the spinal cord compression patients, emergency stenting for the SVC syndrome patients, when possible. I don't live in an ideal world in my practice. But if I'm at Georgetown and they roll me outta bed for an "emergency" SVC syndrome, I will be there purely to wake up an interventional radiologist.
 
Maybe evidence of smarter hospitalists and medical oncologists who know that emergent inpatient radiation is typically useless...

Naaaaaa
I disagree with this pretty strongly.

I've treated SVC syndrome patients, emergently, as inpatients, who are now alive several years later and NED. I've treated spinal cord compression, emergently, as inpatients, and the patients did regain their ability to ambulate. I've treated patients on Friday evening, emergently, as inpatients, to help get their pain under control so they could be discharged over the weekend, and it worked.

Do all emergent inpatient consults do well? Of course not, they're in the hospital for a reason, and consideration of emergent RT is never a good sign. However, at least in my experience, to say there is never any value to emergent inpatient radiation, or that it is typically "useless" is false.
I can't speak specifically for @metallica81788, but whenever I grumble about emergent inpatient XRT, I mean it as the Hospitalists etc who use it "as Plan A" or think we can work miracles. I would wager it's fairly rare to be in a situation where starting radiation at 8PM on Wednesday will give a superior outcome to 11AM on Thursday, and if I ever developed acute SVC syndrome without a tissue diagnosis, I'd hope they'd consider chucking a stent in me before turning on The Healing Rays.
 
Noted lol. But in an ideal world as rad oncs we should be pushing for emergent surgery for the spinal cord compression patients, emergency stenting for the SVC syndrome patients, when possible. I don't live in an ideal world in my practice. But if I'm at Georgetown and they roll me outta bed for an "emergency" SVC syndrome, I will be there purely to wake up an interventional radiologist.

@elementaryschooleconomics


I'm like zero for a lifetime of convincing IR to stent SVC compression patients. They'll RFA a lung lesion or y90 anything in the liver (NCCN guidelines be damned), but putting stents in SVC's is apparently off limits in every single place (academics and private) Ive ever been.

??maybe I need to sell it like - "look, it has more evidence than those IVC filters you like to place"?
 
@elementaryschooleconomics


I'm like zero for a lifetime of convincing IR to stent SVC compression patients. They'll RFA a lung lesion or y90 anything in the liver (NCCN guidelines be damned), but putting stents in SVC's is apparently off limits in every single place (academics and private) Ive ever been.

??maybe I need to sell it like - "look, it has more evidence than those IVC filters you like to place"?
I don't want to summon the wrath of one of the SDN IR crew, but...you have a point. The "bioplausible" shenanigans that I have seen pulled by guys holding Glidecaths stand in stark juxtaposition to the times when my case requests have been denied because of "risk".
 
@elementaryschooleconomics


I'm like zero for a lifetime of convincing IR to stent SVC compression patients. They'll RFA a lung lesion or y90 anything in the liver (NCCN guidelines be damned), but putting stents in SVC's is apparently off limits in every single place (academics and private) Ive ever been.

??maybe I need to sell it like - "look, it has more evidence than those IVC filters you like to place"?

had one the other day, stent works way faster than RT

1638308597612.png
 
@elementaryschooleconomics


I'm like zero for a lifetime of convincing IR to stent SVC compression patients. They'll RFA a lung lesion or y90 anything in the liver (NCCN guidelines be damned), but putting stents in SVC's is apparently off limits in every single place (academics and private) Ive ever been.

??maybe I need to sell it like - "look, it has more evidence than those IVC filters you like to place"?
Good luck finding an IR to do hospital work outside of bankers hours
 
I can't speak specifically for @metallica81788, but whenever I grumble about emergent inpatient XRT, I mean it as the Hospitalists etc who use it "as Plan A" or think we can work miracles. I would wager it's fairly rare to be in a situation where starting radiation at 8PM on Wednesday will give a superior outcome to 11AM on Thursday, and if I ever developed acute SVC syndrome without a tissue diagnosis, I'd hope they'd consider chucking a stent in me before turning on The Healing Rays.
I'm happy to let other docs think I can work miracles.

My biggest miracle is simply remembering that stenting is a thing and calling the IR myself to get it done. In the AM, the hospitalist rounds and the patient is doing 85% better. Poof! Miracle Man.
 
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